The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on October 06, 2009, 01:02:40 AM
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TW's quest for an iron sight buffalo gun (which I wish to own), got me to thinking. Based on past performance (speed of reload aside) which was the more accurate rifle? The Sharps variants (including the Maritini Henry, the Remingtion Rolling Block or the Winchster Highwall) or the 1903 Springfield 30/06? I am simply curious as to whether a black powder octagonal barreled weapon can out shoot a (relatively) modern bolt action for accuracy . (Fans of the Moisin Nagant which is roughly co-temperanious to the Springfield feel free to chime in). Screw rate of fire. We're talking throwing lead 500+ yards down range with iron sights. Which do you prefer and why?
FQ13 who has gotten out his bowl of pop corn and hopes to learn something
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For accuracy potential I think they are about even in trained hands, I THINK .45/70 has an edge in range though not by much.
It's kind of comparing apples and oranges, on one hand you have the "ultimate" development of the low pressure black powder large bore, (Big and slow ) and on the other hand you have a relatively early stage of the small bore smokeless powder, (Small and fast ).
Neat subject though ;D
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Given the .30-06 at 500 yards is going to drop significantly less than the 45-70 cartridge, you don't need much more than that to measure accuracy of the bullets. You need to be the right guy pulling the trigger with both in order to hit what your aiming at. Gravity is constant, figure in the windage and now you realize why so few people are capable of this type of shooting.
If you can't hit a 6" plate at 200 yards with either, it doesn't really matter which one. Just a point, the 45-70 drops about 9" at 200 and the '06 is 1.5" high at that range....
I broke 80 with a $100 set of golf clubs but I can't hit a 6" plate at 200 yards anymore with anything....cept maybe my car!
;D
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You cant compare these two rounds, they are made for different duty. 45/70 is a big close in bear killer, the 06 has a very diverse amount of bullet chamberings from small to large. 45/70 is a massive mammerjammer.
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You cant compare these two rounds, they are made for different duty. 45/70 is a big close in bear killer, the 06 has a very diverse amount of bullet chamberings from small to large. 45/70 is a massive mammerjammer.
Ahh, not so young padawan. ;D That's what we use it for now. Back in the day, the 45/70, and its big brothers like the 45/90 were for way the hell out there bufflo hunting. You just had to be darn good at hold over, which is what makes these cool.
FQ13
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Hornaday Ballistic Charts
http://www.hornady.com/images/ballistics/ballistics_charts.pdf
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Didn't even need to be good at hold over , the tang sight for the Sharps came from it's use by snipers in the Civil War. It was used by both the 1st and 2nd USSS Regiments.
The sight I mean.
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The .45-70 Government was originally designed to kill MEN, not bison and once again, I remind you that there are no buffalo in North America....
Originally designed for the Springfield 1873 Trapdoor...by the Army!
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Originally designed for the Springfield 1987 Trapdoor...by the Army!
You'd prefer a rifle designed by the navy? Silly squid, we're talking rifles, not BOAT paint. ;D
FQ13
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You'prefer a rifle designed by the navy? Silly squid. ;D
FQ13
Believe it or not, the barrel on a 16" gun is actually rifled young man! We got the greatest toys the Pentagon can buy, bar none....... ;)
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Originally designed for the Springfield 1987 Trapdoor...by the Army!
That would be the 1873 Trapdoor.
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Originally designed for the Springfield 1987 Trapdoor...by the Army!
That would be the 1873 Trapdoor.
You Sir, are correct and my fingers are not.....typed it so fast I didn't even get the numbers right in ANY order.....
Thanks Benny... ;D
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First , Shooter, that chart is no good, it only lists .45/ 70 to 300 yards, I've only shot one once, and that was at 500.
The "Trap Door" was developed because it was cheaper to convert the tens of thousands of Civil war Springfields than to buy new rifles
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Here's an interesting perspective, what do you think?
http://forums.basspro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002012
Its a great but also limited range round. Now before someone starts yammering about 1,000 yard 45-70 shots I'll say you can shoot TARGETS with it at long distances. In a modern gun like the Marlin with modern medium pressure rounds its a good 150-200 yard gun with enough oomph for just about anything in North America.
Few people have ever ACTUALLY fired a 45-70 on paper at any distance (Or any rifle for that matter)and therefore have no real idea what kind of trajectories we are discussing. Suffice it to say I have shot my 1873 Springfield trapdoor with buffington sights a fair amount on NRA standard 600 yard rifle targets. On a good day with little wind I could manage to keep the bullets in the scoring circles (about 4' across) and at 600 yards the round had a 30+ foot high trajectory. To contrast...my .308 with 175 grain HPBT match ammo would require about 45-50 inches of elevation from my 200 yard zero and on a good day I have no problem keeping 20 shots inside of a 10" scoring ring. The 45-70 is subsonic somewhere around 350 yards. My 308 will not be subsonic until around 1200-1300 yards.
At one time the 45-70 was the standard US Military caliber (Custer's troopers were armed with 45-70 carbines at Little Bighorn) But it was eclipsed by the advent of smokeless powders and stronger bessemer process steel mills which allowed firerarms to be made to withstand VERY strong breech pressures.
The original military ammo used a 500 grain round nosed .45 bullet in front of 70 grains of FFG black powder. The standard military arm was the 1873 Springfield Trapdoor rifle...it was used until well into the 1890's when it was replaced with the 30-40 Krag.
Pull up ANY ballistic chart on a the 45-70 and you will see that at 200 yards the drop is measured in feet not inches. This is partly because the tubular magazines require blunt nosed bullets which have poor ballistic charachteristics. Most commercial loads are limited to 400 grain bullets at around 1300 fps due to the fact they may be used in old weak Trapdoor springfields, Modern lever rifles can be loaded ot the mid 30,000 PSI level which is about double th pressure a Springfield will withstand but you will pay premium money for ammo loaded to these specs such as Buffalo Bore ammo. If you really want to eek out the performance in a levergun and are on a budget you should consider reloading. You cannot reload the 45-70 to modern centerfire pressures except in the strongest actions like a Ruger #1 where it can be loaded to just shy of .458 Win Mag potential. Don't do this in a levergun as you will eat the bolt as it explodes through you mouth and eyes.
The 45-70 is a heck of a short range game round. If you want to shoot animals beyond 200 yards you might be better served with a modern high velocity round.
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Does this guy make sense?
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You'd prefer a rifle designed by the navy? Silly squid, we're talking rifles, not BOAT paint. ;D
FQ13
The 6 MM Lee"Navy" rifle was one of the most advanced rifles of it's day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Lee_Navy
TW, what he says about SHORT BARRELED rifles is true enough, however, when it comes to the long barrels that the round was designed for he's either talking out his Obama or he can't shoot.
What kind of breeze do you think it takes to deflect a 500 grain bullet ?
Another thing he got wrong, the ORIGINAL bullet was 405 grains, later they went heavier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70
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I'm on vacation next week and going back to my house in the desert so maybe I'll take my Buffalo Classic .45-70 with me and see what I can do with it at long range.
I have a box of Remington Express 405 gr and Hornady 325 gr FTX LeverRevolutions.
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Remember it has a trajectory kind of like a rainbow . ;D
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I'm on vacation next week and going back to my house in the desert so maybe I'll take my Buffalo Classic .45-70 with me and see what I can do with it at long range.
I have a box of Remington Express 405 gr and Hornady 325 gr FTX LeverRevolutions.
Please do and give a range report. Nothing fancy, just some pumpkins (they're showing up already) and put a few out at 200-500 yards. I have loved the Sharps rifles since I was a kid, but have never had the space to shoot one to its full potential. Enjoy yours and let us share.
FQ13
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Remember it has a trajectory kind of like a rainbow . ;D
Will I find a pot of gold at the end of it? My house is just down the road from the Gold Road Mine.
http://www.gazette9.com/rt66/anewlife.htm
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Will I find a pot of gold at the end of it? My house is just down the road from the Gold Road Mine.
http://www.gazette9.com/rt66/grmine.htm
Only if a Leprechaun shoots it!
;D
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Sure an Begorra ;D
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Sure an Begorra ;D
I had to look up 'Begorra"!