The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Knives & Blades => Topic started by: JdePietro on October 02, 2011, 07:57:35 PM
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I'm sure I'll get slapped around for this question but a little damage to my image is worth the asking.
Balisongs and Karambits are looked at in a very polar light. Either they are the greatest defensive knife on the market or they are total garbage, mall ninja crap. My observations lead me to believe that there is a slim margin of people who will seek out dedicated training with knives. Pocket knives are enjoying an up swing in sales as people are finding that there is a reason the knife is voted #1 most useful tool by Popular Mechanics. This has caused a flurry of activity among knife makers and has lead to some pretty cool inovations. Many of the knives my friends carry incorporate some sort of spring assist or opening device that aids in opening the pocket knife, that is to say I don't know many people who carry a pocket knife that requires two hands to open. I'm not going to argue the merits of one knife over the other but of all the people I know none of them have ever received training on how the knives can be used. I would venture to argue that the majority of these fast action knives are looked at as self explanatory and just placed into a pocket or such and carried.
I don't find this as true with the very small fraction of people I have met who carried a balisong or a karambit knife. In fact I had a lengthy conversation with a very articulate woman who explained that the balisong she carried was fun an interesting, she practiced with it regularly and finds that when she is bored she will practice drawing and techniques using videos she finds on the internet. Karambit has a strong following with people who subscribe to the philipino style of martial arts and of the people I have talked to they also found the knife style intriguing and that is deserved more attention than a regular pocket knife.
So I guess my question for my interenet pals is: In your honest opinion is there merit to be found in a tool that requires the user to obtain some training for use or do you feel that simple knives are the best knives?
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You know it's coming so let's just get this out of the way up front.
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Only thing I can tell ya is that I carry a 'switch blade' because most times I need to cut something one hand is already holding what needs cut. The 'push the button' just makes it easy to open one handed.
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I'll answer your last question first. I feel like if you're carrying for self defense you should train with it either way (admittedly, I haven't had any official training); however, I think simpler is better.
I had to look up what a karambit is and can't speak for them. I have a very old butterfly knife that is of medium quality, but is very worn. What I mean by medium quality; it is no where near Benchmade balisong but better than standard 5 dollar carnival junk. It's fun to play with, and I can work it quite well. It would make a nice hole in someone if it came down to it; however, I don't feel it is in the same category as my Spyderco Endura. It has a long skinny blade that would be good for stabbing, but it is not nearly as substantial of a blade as my endura. On top of that, I can open my endura and have it in a usable position much more quickly. I think your asking in a mostly defensive context, but I want to add that I would much rather have my endura (or most any quality "pocket" knife) in an emergency "I really need a knife" situation. To me, a good simple knife is much more dependable and sturdy than a butterfly knife.
As a side note, you're a lot less likely to have legal issues with a standard pocket knife than a butterfly knife.
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Simple is better.
I've been carrying a knife since 1965, and have never yet needed to use it as a weapon.
In my experience most of this modern stuff is a bunch of mall ninja crap.
I will give Balisong credit for one hand friendly, like Haz says, most of the time I need a knife one hand is full of what I need it for. ;D
And don't get me started on serrated blades. >:(
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Simple is better, but simple still needs training.
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Simple is better, but simple still needs training.
+1000000.
I can see the usefulness of a karambit in close quarters, at least if you're training revolves around pugilism (at least the one or two times I've held one), but training like always would be a must. Honestly though I wouldn't want to trust a 3 inch blade in a fight, unless that was all I had
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And don't get me started on serrated blades. >:(
+1
I have a number of serrated blade knives and they pretty much stay in a box now. A good plain edged knife is useful, no snag and easy to sharpen. I use a knife nearly every day and not to fight. If I have to, I'll fight with whatever I've got, but the knife is truly the most useful tool, besides the brain.
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+1
I have a number of serrated blade knives and they pretty much stay in a box now. A good plain edged knife is useful, no snag and easy to sharpen. I use a knife nearly every day and not to fight. If I have to, I'll fight with whatever I've got, but the knife is truly the most useful tool, besides the brain.
AMEN ! ;D
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I agree with all points made on some level. Obviously I understand the concept of KISS and agree with it on all fronts. I just feel that there is a gap in training when it comes to pocket knives. I have a lot of respect for someone who puts in the time to learn a system that is not so easy and I feel that while modern knives are great but the use-ability breeds a lax attitude. I guess I am alone in this thought.
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I agree with all points made on some level. Obviously I understand the concept of KISS and agree with it on all fronts. I just feel that there is a gap in training when it comes to pocket knives. I have a lot of respect for someone who puts in the time to learn a system that is not so easy and I feel that while modern knives are great but the use-ability breeds a lax attitude. I guess I am alone in this thought.
Not really.
Edged weapons are a "martial art", to become skilled in the proper use, whether, sword, or knife, requires a great deal of training and practice.
Most people just aren't that interested and rely on muddling through .
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A knife is to fight your way to your handgun.
A handgun is to fight your way to your rifle.
A rifle is to fight your way to air support.
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I agree with all points made on some level. Obviously I understand the concept of KISS and agree with it on all fronts. I just feel that there is a gap in training when it comes to pocket knives. I have a lot of respect for someone who puts in the time to learn a system that is not so easy and I feel that while modern knives are great but the use-ability breeds a lax attitude. I guess I am alone in this thought.
Not really.
Edged weapons are a "martial art", to become skilled in the proper use, whether, sword, or knife, requires a great deal of training and practice.
Most people just aren't that interested and rely on muddling through .
I pretty much agree with Tom here. I don't lack respect for those that put a lot of time into learning to be efficient with a specialty knife or most anything useful for that matter. I, however, feel that time spent learning to operate a complicated instrument could be spent to farther advance your skills with a simpler one that, in my opinion, is often more versatile and reliable. There's usually less to go wrong with simpler.
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Michael Janich has given good instruction here on defensive use of a pocket knife.
The techniques are not to difficult and aren't intended to kill but rather disable by slashing critical muscles and tendons.
His demonstrations appeared in the Best Defense/Survival series and would be on the DVDs.
I did not believe a pocket knife would be able to be an effective fighting weapon, but in the defensive slashing role that he presents, it is very viable.
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In my case, no. I cannot open a knife one handed without some kind of auto assist. Prefer not getting caught with a switchblade.
Richard
PS: I like being able to get a knife open when one hand is occupied. Probably would not try to use a knife as a defensive tool because I do not have proper training and can't afford it (just found out what Medicare and etc. is going to cost me!).
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In my opinion a cane is more effective in SD than a knife, first off, the cane gives you a longer reach to keep your attacker further away.
Second, no practical knife will give you the ability to immediately disable an attacker, with the length restrictions most states place on knives this is magnified, a cane on the other hand gives you the leverage to break bones, thereby interfering with the attackers physical support structure, and his ability to attack or pursue.
So if I were going to invest time, money and commitment into SD training I would go with the cane and leave the knife for eating and opening packages.
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The balisong can fairly be said to require a greater degree of practice and training than a "regular" knife (although many would argue that one should also train with the "regular" kind). Of course, I am talking about the opening on the draw. After you get it open the balisong is a very conventional knife. I do know people that can draw it and open it very quickly, much quicker than most folks can do with their regular folder. I don't see the kerambit as requiring any sort of special training. I practice Kali-Silat, and the knife skills learned in this art translate well to any type of blade. The biggest benefit I see of the kerambit is how easy it is to conceal in the hand while holding it ready for use.
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In my opinion a cane is more effective in SD than a knife, first off, the cane gives you a longer reach to keep your attacker further away.
Second, no practical knife will give you the ability to immediately disable an attacker, with the length restrictions most states place on knives this is magnified, a cane on the other hand gives you the leverage to break bones, thereby interfering with the attackers physical support structure, and his ability to attack or pursue.
So if I were going to invest time, money and commitment into SD training I would go with the cane and leave the knife for eating and opening packages.
A cane is a lot harder to conceal. Granted, it is looked at in a different light by most people and won't be concealed.
While a cane can "break bones" even a smallish knife can make those bones unuseable.
A slash to the deltoid will make it impossible to raise your arm.
A slash to the inner aspect of your wrist flexors will make it impossible to hold a weapon in that hand.
A cut across your quads will make that leg quite useless for mobility. (the mobility "kill")
All these have been addressed by MJ in TBD shows.
The cane is indeed a valuable weapon but why carry a cane I don't need when I carry a Benchmade auto EVERYWHERE. Yes, I know there are certain states that I can't carry my favorite auto knife. I then carry my favorite non-auto Benchmade. (along with my favorite CCW auto)
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I must admit that before I started training Kali-Silat I was unaware how quickly a person skilled with a knife can finish a self defense situation.
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When I look at a carry knife, I try to look past the gimmick and find out if it's a practical design that can be used for multiple tasks. I just don't see a karambit being very practical for a EDC knife due to the curved blade. Butterfly knives are a little better in this regard, but they don't have any advantage to a good folder.....and both are inferior to a fixed-blade knife.
I thought the Ka-Bar TDI knife was a gimmick knife like the karambit when I first saw it. Then, after I handled one, I found it to be extremely practical and ergonomic for SD and EDC uses. The TDI plain-blade is now my EDC knife, and I recommend it to anyone looking for a good knife.
http://www.reactgear.com/KA-BAR-TDI-Law-Enforcement-p/kb148-p.htm (http://www.reactgear.com/KA-BAR-TDI-Law-Enforcement-p/kb148-p.htm)
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A cane is a lot harder to conceal. Granted, it is looked at in a different light by most people and won't be concealed.
While a cane can "break bones" even a smallish knife can make those bones unuseable.
A slash to the deltoid will make it impossible to raise your arm.
A slash to the inner aspect of your wrist flexors will make it impossible to hold a weapon in that hand.
A cut across your quads will make that leg quite useless for mobility. (the mobility "kill")
All these have been addressed by MJ in TBD shows.
The cane is indeed a valuable weapon but why carry a cane I don't need when I carry a Benchmade auto EVERYWHERE. Yes, I know there are certain states that I can't carry my favorite auto knife. I then carry my favorite non-auto Benchmade. (along with my favorite CCW auto)
Can you take them on a plane ?
Just call me "Gimpy" ;D
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Tried the TDI on the recommendation of a retired LEO. Gave it a chance and found it too awkward for me.
YMMV
Richard
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I carry a knife, cane and a few concealed handguns.
I consider the knife a last resort, where the conflict started with the attacker so close the cane could not be deployed and using a gun might be difficult.
The cane does offer some advantages over both the gun and the knife...well, it offers advantages when it is used in cobination with the gun anyway.
My hand is always on the cane when I am moving and my had is usually on a gun if possible.
I carry the cane in my off hand and it can be "deployed" by lifting my wrist. Even if only pointed and waved about a bit at an approaching threat, it will be where their focus is and they will act to neutralize it during which time, you can deploy your hand gun.
I see is as a diversion when I have access to a handgun and the primary weapon if I don't.
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I carry a TDI on my duty belt for work, I also carry a Mantis Isosolese for utilitarian type work. I feel the TDI ballances some of the draw backs that a full out karambit has ie stabbing but still offers that easy reflexive slash motion. The Karambit has its draw backs as any blade does but the training opertunities for it are greater than say a buck knife.
So far I am enjoying the comments.
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And don't get me started on serrated blades. >:(
Here I disagree. Climbing, camping, sailing and boating have taught me that a serrated blade will go through a rope a whole lot quicker than a straight edge. Sometimes cutting a rope quickly can be the difference between having a good story to tell over beers and that other thing, particularly when you climb ;). Since I no longer climb or sail I tend to carry either a plain edge or half serrated. Its a trade off, but it does have its use. If don't need to cut rope or seat belts or the like, I'd go straight edge for ease of sharpening and their ability to do fine work like filleting or skinning, but don't diss a serrated knife. It has its place.
FQ13
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Here I disagree. Climbing, camping, sailing and boating have taught me that a serrated blade will go through a rope a whole lot quicker than a straight edge. Sometimes cutting a rope quickly can be the difference between having a good story to tell over beers and that other thing, particularly when you climb ;). Since I no longer climb or sail I tend to carry either a plain edge or half serrated. Its a trade off, but it does have its use. If don't need to cut rope or seat belts or the like, I'd go straight edge for ease of sharpening and their ability to do fine work like filleting or skinning, but don't diss a serrated knife. It has its place.
FQ13
I wholeheartedly agree. All my Benchmade's but one has the half 'n half blades. Serrated when I want it, regular for when I don't.
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+1
I have a number of serrated blade knives and they pretty much stay in a box now. A good plain edged knife is useful, no snag and easy to sharpen. I use a knife nearly every day and not to fight. If I have to, I'll fight with whatever I've got, but the knife is truly the most useful tool, besides the brain.
This is for Tom also, as you guys probably know serrated blades have but one purpose. Cutting rope. For this reason I love serrated blades. Being a kayaker and a climber, I always carry a half serrated blade. However for ANY other purpose I think they are pretty much junk and will take a straight edge.
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This is for Tom also, as you guys probably know serrated blades have but one purpose. Cutting rope. For this reason I love serrated blades. Being a kayaker and a climber, I always carry a half serrated blade. However for ANY other purpose I think they are pretty much junk and will take a straight edge.
Are you letting Tom know in case he decided to just cut them down and not worry about reusing the noose?
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Are you letting Tom know in case he decided to just cut them down and not worry about reusing the noose?
Basically yes. ;D
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Let them hang till they fall down, the only use I have for a serrated blade is on steak, and then only if I'm someplace that I'd get funny looks using my Kershaw. ;D
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Let them hang till they fall down, the only use I have for a serrated blade is on steak, and then only if I'm someplace that I'd get funny looks using my Kershaw. ;D
Now, that option didn't even occur to me......I have a lot to learn ;D ;D
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Now, that option didn't even occur to me......I have a lot to learn ;D ;D
There is a recipe for Pheasant that calls for that, leave it hanging till the head pops off then cook it. Yum ? ::)
That is also what they used to do to some felons.
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There is a recipe for Pheasant that calls for that, leave it hanging till the head pops off then cook it. Yum ? ::)
That is also what they used to do to some felons.
Sounds like a good way to make a "starter" for Pheasant Kimchi. ;D
Hmmmm Liberal Kimchi??? how disgusting can we get?