The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: twyacht on January 24, 2010, 04:21:58 PM
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Just a helpful link that I found, it has a checklist that you can use with a "compliance tally" at the bottom.
Plus there is an important subsection (1):
http://jobson.us/922r/
Saiga 922r
922r is the section of law which relates to assembling or modifying semi-automatic weapons, such as AK and SKS type rifles. This is my understanding of the law after reading the law and several people's descriptions of it. I am not a lawyer, so take this interpretation as such; if you want the actual definition, please consult a lawyer.
922r is defined under U.S. Code - Title 18 - Part 1 - Chapter 44 - § 922
(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to —
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.
Seeing how Saiga goes through Russia American Armory out of Indiana, ALL Saiga's bought from a local dealer are up to snuff.
Yes it's a dumb law, but if anyone has questions about other brands of AK's or SKS's the checklist at the link may be of help.
FWIW.
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Thanks for the info and link.
Now another question. Is there a date when 922r took effect? If you have an older semiauto that was imported before 922r became effective, do you still have to comply?
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Nov. 1990, is when the BATF, in their illustrious jack booted ways, got 922r enacted. It seems whatever vintage firearm you have, modifying it, is a "gray" area...
Which is the way they want it...If you have insomnia, this will no doubt help....but it does have (as rules & regs) do from the gov't muddy the waters.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIH2.html
from article:
Note also that sec. 922(r) only bans "assembly", it is not a
crime to possess a weapon "assembled" in violation of this section.
However it may be subject to seizure and forfeiture, under some
circumstances, if ATF can show it was assembled in knowing or
willful violation of the Gun Control Act, under 18 U.S.C. sec.
924(d)(1), by clear and convincing evidence.
Also be aware that you are not allowed one bad feature on an
imported gun, under sec. 922(r); while it may not become a
"semiautomatic assault weapon" (and violate sec. 922(v), below) if
you put a pistol grip stock set on your MAK-90 rifle, it will have
been assembled in violation of sec. 922(r); unless its parts
content is less than 11 of the listed parts being imported, all
the rest being USA made.
However, just when you think that means what it says, BATF has
also decided, in making the regulation implementing sec. 922(r),
that "identical" means similar, and not identical. Put another
way, read the law to say; it is illegal for anyone to assemble a
semi-auto rifle or shotgun domestically that would be prohibited
from import were import attempted, out of imported parts. The law
(P.L. 101-647) took effect Nov. 30, 1990. Repair to rifles so
"assembled" before that date are OK, assembly on or after that date
is not, regardless of when the rifle was imported. Thus in order
to legally modify your SKS rifle in a way that would make it
prohibited from import, you need to have done that before the law
took effect. Regardless of when it was imported, you may not
modify it, legally, anymore.
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Headache yet? What a bunch of crap..... These are the regulatory baby steps that the anti's will not stop attempting.
The T&T Ticket in 2012,....can we have an Executive Order that does away with this crap? >:(
Enforcement is the tough part,.... ;)
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I agonized over this crap when I was thinking of buying a Saiga. Plus side? A Russian AK that with a little dremel work and four US parts (a Tapco stock and US high caps, which count as three parts, mag, spring and follower) and you've got the best AK on the block. Downside? Have one foriegn AK mag in possesion and you're looking at a few years in club fed. Me, I decided not to play a rigged game. Either go AR or get a US made AK like Century that is fully compliant or replace things like the gas block, bolt etc on an import, which raises the cost and hassel factor. 4 might be the minimum, but a wise man will have six or more in case one is ruled (by ATF) insufficient. No sense in buying an SD weapon that will land you in jail even if the shoot is justified, just because some Fed ADA wants to score points.
FQ13 who is more than a little pissed over this nonsense, but does not want to be the NRA's test case on this issue either
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The point FQ, is Saiga's through Russian American Armory, are made compliant, 1 American polymer mag, spring, base, that's 3, one American polymer buttstock and foregrip that's 2 more, the fwd trunnion is part of the receiver, so not a separate part.
Presto,,,,,,put a G2 trigger on it, an American adjustable stock, stick with Promags and your still good.
It is a headache, put it pertains more to savvy folks that custom build there own platform. Not ones imported through a National Distributor.
I have yet to see someone with an AK get asked,"Hey lets count those American Parts",....most of the time it's WOW that kick's ass!!! Where can I get one???
If I have to use my AK for SD, the apocolypse and zombies have been unleashed, the revolution has begun, and 922r will be the least of anyone's worries...
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I am no expert. I thought that Saiga rifles as imported by RAA are not compliant with 922r, but are simply not subject to it as they are imported with the classification of "sporting rifle" or some such. This is why they can have foriegn furniture and foriegn proprietary mags.
I have read that it may be considered illegal to throw a 30 round US mag in a factory Saiga. They used a proprietary mag design for a reason, so they would be allowed to be imported. You couldn't use a mag of greater than 10 round capacity, to do so you would have to modify the rifle or the mag.
All of a sudden they become popular and aftermarket mags are designed. The 10 round limit may still apply. That is why 922r could apply to anybody who buys a Saiga.
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except that this subsection shall not apply to —
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer(Saiga is licensed for distribution and sale, through RAA), to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
RAA adds American parts to ensure compliance, but I love the "language" of the rule,........ perpetual headache for sure.
And so it goes....
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I am no expert. I thought that Saiga rifles as imported by RAA are not compliant with 922r, but are simply not subject to it as they are imported with the classification of "sporting rifle" or some such. This is why they can have foriegn furniture and foriegn proprietary mags.
I have read that it may be considered illegal to throw a 30 round US mag in a factory Saiga. They used a proprietary mag design for a reason, so they would be allowed to be imported. You couldn't use a mag of greater than 10 round capacity, to do so you would have to modify the rifle or the mag.
All of a sudden they become popular and aftermarket mags are designed. The 10 round limit may still apply. That is why 922r could apply to anybody who buys a Saiga.
For the straight dope go to Saiga forum.com. They have a great FAQ that walks you through this. Short hand is this. Saigas are made with a nod and a wink at 922r. The mag well is slightly smaller than an AK so it can't take their mags, thus it meets the "sporting purposes" test. Real life, its made too small by virtue of it being a bit too thick. Five minutes with a dremel by someone who knows what they are doing and you're good to go. Problem is, you have to have 4 US parts to be legal. A US mag counts as 3 and then insert a stock, trigger group etc and you're fine. Where you get into trouble (should ATF show up at your door, in which case you are probably in trouble anyway) is if you don't replace enough parts to not rely on the US mag to be compliant. Suppose you are Billt (ahh, to dream ;D) and you have two Saigas and 26 AKs. Now, you only use US mags in the Saiga, yet you have a zillion AK mags. Too bad, you're going to jail (along with the lovely wife) because you COULD use those mags in the Saiga. And lets be honest, who wants a Tapco mag when you could buy steel combloc for half the money? Saigas are still a great buy, but you do need to do a little work to make them legal if you want to use foriegn mags. No big deal, its just something to be aware of. TW is right in that it will 99 times out of 100 never be an issue, but I don't want to own a gun that can land me in jail if I happen to drw the short straw.
FQ13
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Dremel tool????? ,.......hmmmmmm,...... ::)
;D
Strictly for academic study of course,....
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Dremel tool????? ,.......hmmmmmm,...... ::)
;D
Strictly for academic study of course,....
Check out Saiga forum. Blue prints, instuctions etc. Hell, there are some good custom AK guys (no I didn't stutter ;D) who consider the Russian Saiga reciever the best building block out there now that Armory is no more. Want to drop $1000 on an AK? you'll be getting a Saiga or Polish reciever.
FQ13
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A Saiga doesn't have any US made parts. It comes from Russia with the stock, handguard and mag.
The mag well isn't really any different except for a little metal tab that they throw in there.
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A Saiga doesn't have any US made parts. It comes from Russia with the stock, handguard and mag.
The mag well isn't really any different except for a little metal tab that they throw in there.
Hence the dremel. ;D
FQ13
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I've worn out my position and calls to my local Saiga distributor, the subsection (1) I posted more than twice from the statute that directly exonerates the rifle, including the regional rep.
As they make high cap mags in America, specifically for that rifle, I will use them, enjoy them, and utilize a well made AK and all the bells and whistles I may or may not want to add, including an American adjustable stock. Been to the Saiga forum.
This is right up there with declaring your guns on your taxes. Microstamping bullets, and submitting psych evals. to the AG for ultimate consideration when purchasing a firearm.
For those that find it a ligit concern, get something else, an AR, or modify it to your level of comfort and compliance.
Good shooting.
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I've worn out my position and calls to my local Saiga distributor, the subsection (1) I posted more than twice from the statute that directly exonerates the rifle, including the regional rep.
As they make high cap mags in America, specifically for that rifle, I will use them, enjoy them, and utilize a well made AK and all the bells and whistles I may or may not want to add, including an American adjustable stock. Been to the Saiga forum.
This is right up there with declaring your guns on your taxes. Microstamping bullets, and submitting psych evals. to the AG for ultimate consideration when purchasing a firearm.
For those that find it a ligit concern, get something else, an AR, or modify it to your level of comfort and compliance.
Good shooting.
No argument from me TW, just a warning to newbies that there are issues to be aware of. I asked on another thread, but I'll ask again here. What model did you get and how does it work?
FQ13
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=10916.0
It's the version 03. AK 7.62x39. haven't tried it yet... Same plant and specs as the Kalashnikovs, not the Romanian or Yugo stuff, which just seemed too sloppy, even by AK standards.
Range report will follow to be sure, trying to get a digital camcorder for water jugs ad produce victims,...
Or if zombies show up,.... ;)
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As someone who really doesn't want to cause the thread to drift, these question seems some what relevant. PM me if this is too much off topic. To avoid dealing with all the legalities involved with AK clones, can someone recommend to me an decent AK style rifle that wouldn't really be very expensive. I've seen AKs costing in the $800s and that is way more than I would spend. I just want one to have one I guess you could say. One that I can go to the range with and have fun but still be able to count on in a crunch.
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From the mississippi auto arms website. They are a major dealer for Saiga rifles and accesories.
http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/surefire-saiga-762x39-30rd-polymer-magazine-clear-p-265.html
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Surefire Saiga 7.62x39 30RD Polymer magazine with bolt hold open feature on last round. Glass filled clear polymer magazines. Made in USA and counts as 3 component US parts.
Must be used in a 922r Compliant rifle. The Saiga Rifle out of the box is not compliant with high capacity magazines.
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I just want to make sure everybody who reads the thread understands.
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As someone who really doesn't want to cause the thread to drift, these question seems some what relevant. PM me if this is too much off topic. To avoid dealing with all the legalities involved with AK clones, can someone recommend to me an decent AK style rifle that wouldn't really be very expensive. I've seen AKs costing in the $800s and that is way more than I would spend. I just want one to have one I guess you could say. One that I can go to the range with and have fun but still be able to count on in a crunch.
I would reccomend Classic arms or (I think) J@G sales (PM Billt he uses them.) Classic has a US built Century with a Green Mountain barrel and extras for around five and a half. Fully compliant and a good deal. The jury is split on Century. They used to make some bad stuff, but apparently have cleaned up their act. There are also plenty of Wassers and Bulgarians for a reasonable price.
FQ13
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I'm more interested in the Saiga-12 shotguns:
(http://tromix.com/images/S-19-Basic-lrg.jpg)
That's from Tromix in Oklahoma. He does the conversions. ;D
Here's a full auto version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_zIrgtv1J0