The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: tstand on October 18, 2014, 10:09:15 PM
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I'm considering concealed carry and am thinking about worst case scenarios - you have to use the gun in defense, or there was an accidental discharge that harmed someone.
If either has happened to you, can you tell your story? What was the aftermath for you? (Psychological, medical, legal, financial, whatever you want to share)
thanks
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I doubt any one is willing to talk about it. I am happy to say thay has never happen to me, but I have pointed guns at people.
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This is helpful
http://concealednation.org/2013/04/aftermath-of-a-self-defense-shooting/
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If you are going to CCW you should be more concerned with things like your willingness to actually pull the trigger when needed, how will you carry, on body IWB, OWB, off body, weapon security, things of that nature.
While it is wise to know your legal position , and perhaps look into concealed carry insurance, you can not let these things influence your decision.
You and your loved ones have to be alive for you to be concerned with consequences.
If you let some POS kill you you will be safe from any sort of legal or financial consequences, but will it matter ?
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I can parrot what Tom has already stated and add that with a firearm, there is no such thing as a "accidental" discharge. Any unintended discharge is "negligence" not an accident! An accident is something that is unforeseen or unplanned. As soon as a firearm is loaded, it's not an accident when it's fired under any circumstances if the party is responsible in it's handling.
As to the question, I've no idea how I'll react if confronted with the reality of defending myself with a firearm but I've faced the reality of a knife wielding assailant and manage to prevent my own blood loss.
I suspect I should be capable but unless and until that situation arises, all we can do is get the mindset, prepare and practice for the eventuality.
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If you are going to CCW you should be more concerned with things like your willingness to actually pull the trigger when needed, how will you carry, on body IWB, OWB, off body, weapon security, things of that nature.
While it is wise to know your legal position , and perhaps look into concealed carry insurance, you can not let these things influence your decision.
You and your loved ones have to be alive for you to be concerned with consequences.
If you let some POS kill you you will be safe from any sort of legal or financial consequences, but will it matter ?
I've worked through the willingness to shoot someone if they invade our home (already happened once last Spring, but no one was home). But then I got more curious about the Ohio concealed carry laws, and that's what motivated my question(s). I think you have to know what the aftermath could be, as well as evaluate whether you could pull the trigger.
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I never had to but thought that might happen when someone was breaking into house I lived in during college. The guy took off when the cops arrived. Let me tell you that the five minutes it takes for the cops to show up seem like an eternity.
My grandfather was a Marine in the Pacific during WWII. I can tell you that he was troubled by the killing he did for the rest of his life. Once I was an adult and in the military he told me the details of what he went through. Without a doubt killing a human being will scare your soul.
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Think it through deeply before you carry.
You need to make that moral decision before you are faced with the situation.
Think about and understand, "internalize", as the catchword goes. Know fully that you believe you would be justified in killing to protect your life or the life of another innocent. Think, also, how you would view yourself if you didn't...if you stood by and an innocent was killed and you could have prevented it.
If after all that consideration, you do not know for sure you would be morally (to yourself) justified, I'd say don't carry.
Also note that even if you have made the decision that you would be morally justified in a self defense killing, you still don't know what you will do when it's time to pull the trigger....not for sure.
But I do believe that the more you look at it and consider all the "angles" the more likely you will be to do what you have thought out to be right when the time comes.
About negligent discharges. They can be avoided by never being negligent.
If you don't know the 4 rules of safe gun handling, learn them and every time your fingers touch your weapon, be thinking of them.
When you have your gun in your hand, it needs to be the center of your attention..along with your target if you have one. Just never be casual with it. Treat it like a running chainsaw....be aware of every move you make with it.
Good luck and take care.
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I can parrot what Tom has already stated and add that with a firearm, there is no such thing as a "accidental" discharge. Any unintended discharge is "negligence" not an accident! An accident is something that is unforeseen or unplanned. As soon as a firearm is loaded, it's not an accident when it's fired under any circumstances if the party is responsible in it's handling.
As to the question, I've no idea how I'll react if confronted with the reality of defending myself with a firearm but I've faced the reality of a knife wielding assailant and manage to prevent my own blood loss.
I suspect I should be capable but unless and until that situation arises, all we can do is get the mindset, prepare and practice for the eventuality.
I dissagree. Mechanical.failures can produce a ad, but they are extremely rare.
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I dissagree. Mechanical.failures can produce a ad, but they are extremely rare.
In more than fifty years of gun handling by me, my family and friends combined, we've never had a mechanical issue of any kind that resulted in a discharge of a firearm!
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In more than fifty years of gun handling by me, my family and friends combined, we've never had a mechanical issue of any kind that resulted in a discharge of a firearm!
really? I have had one, and witness to others. mine was the 22 firing pin bulging and going full auto. one was an Winchester rifle that when you would take the safety off the gun would go bang. they had a massive recall in the early sixties because of it. the last was ultra light weight race 1911 that had the seerer break and discharged by using the slide release. Every one thought it was nd, untill we tessted it.
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I dissagree. Mechanical.failures can produce a ad, but they are extremely rare.
I disagree with you on this one TAB. A maintained firearm does not just go off. If it has a mechanical issue you are not caring for it, and that is careless. Also, if you only pull the firearm when needed for defense it doesn't matter if it goes off on its own or not. The firearm does not leave the holster until it is going to be fired. The chances of calling off the shot after the draw are the same as the gun going off on its own.
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not true at all. how often do you tear your guns apart to either magnaflux or dye check them? you cannot see microcracks with the naked eye. what about the rifle I mentioned in the post above? it was a known issue or the 3 position safety could occasionally break. once it did you could not remove the safety without the gun going bang. you could not even unload the gun because it locked the bolt. like I said there was a major recall in the early sixties. but not everyone had their gun fixed. many didn't even know. like I said it does not happen often but it does happen.
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Good maintenance is a must . I will point out that at least 2 of TAB's examples are questionable.
1st, firing pins don't "bulge" from hitting brass cases of rim fire ammo, it's softer than the steel, what causes the bulging is dry firing a rim fire which every one is told not to do, in most cases it is specified in the instructions.
So that was a case of user abuse/misuse of the firearm.
2nd, the "race gun", these are nowhere near being stock fire arms that an average person would CCW, and are entirely dependent one the workmanship of one individual doing their own quality control without the sort of checks provided by the factory process. So this can be listed as "monkeying with an otherwise safe gun", again, caused by the owner.
The 3rd case, while it was apparently caused by a factory defect, I would still blame on owner negligence since knowing TAB's age means that this event occurred at least 20 years after the recall he mentioned and a careful owner would have had the proper repairs made at the time of the recall. Of course the age of the gun leaves open the possibility of simple wear, but not enough information is given.
In short, careful examination, and basic safety tests on cleaning would have at least the last 2 of these defects and if they were not present when the last shooting session ended they would not magically appear before the next shooting session began.
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"Ever shoot anybody?"
"No, but I hurt somebody's feelings once."
- Robert de Niro, Ronin
:D:D:D:D
A good resource for 1st-person CCW stories is the Defensive Gun Use subReddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/). While it lists a lot of third-party news stories from around the nation, there is occasionally stories about people on the site who have had to use their firearms in defense of their life.
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I agree with Tab on this one. I had an issue with an old Anshutz where it would fire once the bolt was closed, even if the safety was on. Basically the problem was that a screw came loose. Not an issue since I always followed the safety rules so muzzle was always pointed down range. Follow the safety rules. Never assume that mechanical failures are impossible.
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In more than fifty years of gun handling by me, my family and friends combined, we've never had a mechanical issue of any kind that resulted in a discharge of a firearm!
This might be a special case, but here is what happened to me.
I was installing a Bull Pup stock on a Mini-14 and had it installed, adjusted and function tested as per the instructions.
I could operate the bolt, pull the trigger and dry fire it several times.
Next step was a live test. Put a cartridge in a magazine, inserted it, released the bolt and it discharged.....into the ground thanks to my paying attention to the rules.
I also found I has a thumb safety problem with my 1911. With it unloaded, I pulled the trigger with the safety on and the hammer fell to the half cock notch.
I had a National Match M1a, at the range with some bulk ammo, it would "double". Work fine with my handloads and name brand match ammo, but not the bulk batch. The rifle had a light trigger pull and I thought I might have "bump fired" it, so I made sure the trigger was firmly held rearward for the next shot and it "doubled" again.
So, my experience says mechanics can lead to an "unintended" discharge. None of those were negligent because I was not negligent in how I handled the weapon.
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In more than fifty years of gun handling by me, my family and friends combined, we've never had a mechanical issue of any kind that resulted in a discharge of a firearm!
In my 50 years of gun handling, I've had 3.
First was an el cheapo pump shotgun - one made by someone then rebranded to be sold in various dept stores. Pumping the action to unload it rather than pushing the shell latch out of the way. Gun fired when the 3rd shell went into the chamber.
The second was a Mod 12 Winchester. Fired when we were standing around after the morning Mourning Dove blastfest. I was moving the gun from one hand to the other and it fired - with the safety ON.
Neither shotgun had been modified from it's factory configuration.
The 3rd was a Colt 1911 Gold Cup that doubled after a trigger job.
(Full auto 1911s are neat but you better have a solid grip 8))
That problem went away with 2 minutes of work from the gunsmith that did the trigger job.
It has never done it again.
None resulted in any injury because of muzzle control.
I like Solus equating handling guns like running chainsaws. Chainsaws with range!
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Tom the 22 was not mine. And while the rifle had a known issue, about half of them were fixed. Lots of dads or grandpas deer rifles out there with this prob. Which was the with that gun in question. It was his dads rifle, not touched in decades. Not many of us would even know about that recall unless you are close to.70
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Tom the 22 was not mine. And while the rifle had a known issue, about half of them were fixed. Lots of dads or grandpas deer rifles out there with this prob. Which was the with that gun in question. It was his dads rifle, not touched in decades. Not many of us would even know about that recall unless you are close to.70
Up yours TAB, I was old enough to pay attention to gun stuff and I'm not close to 70.
Well, not THAT close any way . ;D
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I wasn't arguing that mechanical things could never fail. I was just saying that I personally, and those around me, never had a mechanical issue that led to the discharge of a firearm.
Having worked in manufacturing, engineering, production capacities the last forty years I've certainly seen my share of mechanical failures. Maybe I was too quick on my response regarding AD and ND. I didn't think it through thoroughly and yes, in that context an accidental discharge is surely possible. Thankfully, I've never experienced an issue with a loaded gun.
To Kmitch....I owned a Monkey Wards, Western Field knockoff and it worked flawlessly for the better part of my youth and young adulthood. Wish I still had it... ;) It was the first gun I was able to buy (with a note from my Pop) at the tender age of 13 or 14... I felt like Daniel Boone walking the half mile home from the mall that day, shotgun slung over the shoulder!
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I have a couple westernfields. some are made by very good manufactors, others not so much.
I have a 22 that was made by Remington and a 16 ga bolt shot gun( with an adjustable choke that you can adjust in about .5 seconds and no I still don't know why I bought it, I have a 16 ga addiction) that was made by some one in Europe.
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My point was not that mechanical things don't fail, I've worked with machinery far to long for that.
My point is that most failures are detectable through careful maintenance, and most of it is not that difficult with a little research.
For example, there were a couple of mentions of 1911 safety failures. The fact that these got to the point of causing unintended discharge shows a lack of knowledge of proper care as the check is simple and part of standard military care for the 1911.
http://www.m1911.org/full_technic.htm
http://www.m1911.org/technic25.htm
This is another example that for shooters, your computer search function is one of your best resources.
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Only in the Coast Guard when on a boarding party that went bad. Long time ago, 1972.