The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MAUSERMAN on October 15, 2020, 11:59:35 PM
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I try to keep a wide variety of handguns in different calibers. Revolvers and autos for different purposes. I keep hearing that the .40 is dead. Yet in this Ammo craze I find .40 rather easily. I know that 9mm has advanced in technology, but I find nothing wrong with the .40. So what gives?
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The .40 S&W is available in periods of heavy demand, because it is becoming less popular among today's shooters. With that said, the .40 S&W is not "dead". However it's popularity has been going downhill for a while now. The reason is because it was a solution to a non existent problem. But back in the 90's it was Smith & Wesson's biggest money maker. A "Cliff Notes" version of the rise and fall of the .40 S&W is as follows:
1.) The FBI Miami shootout occurred on April 11, 1986. Resulting in 2 FBI Agents killed, and 5 others wounded.
2.) In order to improve it's weaponry, the FBI quickly made the change to the then new 10 MM Auto cartridge. Along with the large framed, heavy S&W Model 1006 auto pistols that fired it.
3.) They quickly discovered that several agents, (in particular women agents), could not handle the gun well, and several were having difficulty qualifying with it because of it's size, weight, and recoil.
4.) The FBI then went to Federal, and asked them to produce a reduced power load to help cut recoil, and in the process increase control. Federal then introduced the lower powered, "FBI 10 MM Load". By doing so the FBI along with Federal, managed to create the worst of everything. An underpowered load in too big and heavy of a pistol.
5.) While all of this was going on, Smith & Wesson was sitting on the sidelines watching all of it, and came up with a brilliant, $$$"solution"$$$. They discovered they could shorten the 10 MM case by .100, and call it the .40 S&W. This round gave better paper ballistics then a 9 MM at the time, and could be built on existing 9 MM frame pistols. It was also very easy for police and law enforcement agents to control.
6.) Everyone and their brother started producing and selling .40 S&W pistols. And many in law enforcement and the civilian market thought it was the best thing to come along since Monday Night Football, and 3 men in the booth. Sales took off.
7.) While all of this was taking place in the 90's and well into the new millennium, modern self defense pistol ammunition was improving drastically across the board. With better, more positively expanding bullets, that improved the 9 MM's performance to much higher levels. With less recoil and wear than what the .40 S&W offered. Any minor "advantage" the .40 S&W may have had, was quickly negated by vastly improved 9 MM ammunition
8.) The result of all of this was the .40 S&W slowly fell from grace, while the 9 MM once again began to rise back as the premier caliber for law enforcement.
9.) The final nail in the .40 S&W coffin was when the FBI made the decision to change back to the 9 MM in 2015. Pretty much admitting in the process the .40 S&W did not produce the results they had originally hoped for.
It's not that the .40 S&W was a "bad" cartridge. It's not. Or that there was anything "wrong" with it per say. There isn't. It is just as I said, a solution to a non existent problem. Or perhaps more accurately, a solution to a problem the FBI managed to create for themselves. But that Smith & Wesson was able to brilliantly capitalize on from a financial standpoint.
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Bill, that was an excellent and concise expository history of the .40 S&W.
I carried a Glock 27 in .40 S&W for many, many years as my EDC. In all that time, and with countless rounds sent down range, I never grew any affection for that gun. The .40 barks hard and even with my 220 lbs. and years of weight training, it jumped enough that it always took a moment to get back on target. I just never particularly liked the gun even though I learned to shoot it well.
In 2018 I saw a good looking 9 mm Sig Sauer P226 in a local gun store. It felt good in my hand. I made the purchase. I have never regretted the move to Sig over Glock, and never regretted the move from .40 S&W to 9 mm. And, at the risk of setting under the skin of Glock fanboys, I will say the Sig is a much superior gun in almost every respect, and it allowed me to do something I could not do with the Glock--add some great looking wood grips.
I did get a .40 S&W barrel with my Sig with the thought that I still had a safe load of .40 S&W that needed to be shot. But, after a mag or two of .40 S&W through the Sig, that barrel and attendant magazines remain ensconced on a back shelf in my safe and may not see the light of day until I've used up all my 9 mm in the Zombie Apocalypse.
And in another one of those unforeseen and unexpected life events, shortly after I sold the Glock 27 I was gifted a CZ P-40 in .40 S&W by an elderly friend. So now I have another .40 S&W that I have shot a single magazine through and will likely never shoot again.
To somewhat echo what Bill T said, there's really nothing wrong with the .40 S&W other than it solved a problem that didn't need a solution. At the time, however, it reflected what Mr. Browning is reported to have said: Never get in a gunfight with anything that doesn't start with a 4.
FWIW,
Crusader Rabbit
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Yet in this Ammo craze I find .40 rather easily. I know that 9mm has advanced in technology, but I find nothing wrong with the .40. So what gives?
That should tell you all you need to know about .40 S&W.
It's like the bullpup rifle, lot's of agencies adopted one when it was introduced, no one adopted a 2nd one.
It isn't good enough to compete with calibers that spent 100 years being perfected and building their market.
Just as good isn't good enough to justify any extra expense .
AK 74 is the same.
US sportsman bought more of them than even Russia did. They are sticking with the 7.62 X 39.
Really pissing them off too. ;D
They REALLY want a new gun, but can't find one any better.
They should do like us, just buy the cool one and F%CK justification. ;D
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I toyed with it, actually shot a couple of matches with it.
If you want to have a wide variety of calibers so that you can always find ammo, then by all means get the .40SW. Want to shoot "major" in USPSA, sure .40SW can fill that roll. It's a compromise between .45ACP and 9mm. Less power but more rounds than the former, more power but fewer rounds than the latter.
In my final quarter of life, I embrace Marie Kondo theory: If it brings joy keep it.
My simplified armory is 9mm & .45 for semi-autos, and .38sp & .44mag for revolvers.
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I bought a couple of 40 S&W chambered gun. My son owns them now.
I kept the 10MM's.
I kept the 9MM's.
I kept the 45's.
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Why shoot 40, when i can shoot 10 mm?
I carry a 1911 every day. Its 10 mm more often than its 45.
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Wow guys thanks for the info. Bill you knocked it out of the park. Maybe I’m not recoil sensitive or don’t mind carrying I large handgun. I’ve carried a G22 while backpacking, sometimes a G20 in 10mm in cases where the critters get bit larger. My Sigpro 2022 super accurate and very mild mannered. My edc currently is a Xd subcompact in .40sw. I do keep a beretta m9a1 for my bump in the night gun. I do like the magazine capability of 9mm.
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.....It's like the bullpup rifle, lot's of agencies adopted one when it was introduced, no one adopted a 2nd one.........
That is an excellent comparison.
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Just another tidbit I thought I would add. Back when I was living in Glendale, I was just 5 minutes from both Cabela's and Sportsman's Warehouse. On several occasions while browsing both stores, I would see many Sig's, Beretta's, S&W's, and even a few Browning Hi-Powers in both 9 MM, and .40 S&W at the gun counter. The 9 MM guns were gone in a matter of day's, or even hours during times of panic buying.... While the same guns in .40 S&W would languish on the shelf for sometimes months before they sold. And they were usually heavily discounted when they did.
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When I got my G 20 I carried it.
New Toy syndrome ;D
At 5'8'' and 145 lbs covered was no problem, concealed was a joke. ;D
Now I carry a Witness Compact 10mm, it's not much larger than my S&W 469, and will handle any threat conceivable in the North East.
BillT, I see the same trend at Rock Island auctions .
2 same model pistols the 40 will be $100 lower minimum bid.
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Funny that .40 caliber guns do sit on the self longer and go for a much lower price. One of my students got a CZ75 in .40 for a steal. I think he paid $500 for it. I got a tanfoglio witness small frame for $289.99.
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I remember after the Sandy Hook shooting, when everyone went nuts. .40 S&W was the last caliber they ran out of. And the first caliber they got back in stock. In that regard it might not be a bad idea to have at least one .40 laying around. I just have never been attracted to the caliber enough to buy one.... Even heavily discounted. It's easier to keep plenty of ammo in stock, and buy it when it's plentiful and cheap.
I never thought I would see the day when you had to buy ammunition the same way you buy stocks.... When no one wants either. It's like the whole toilet paper deal. Back when all the Corona crap started last March, they were stripping the shelves of it. Now it's stacked high, deep, and cheap. People are still wiping their asses with 6 month old stuff, they've got piled up in their closets.
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I play gun games...tried a G35 for USPSA, and thought that a G23 was the perfect modern iteration of a Commander length pistol... I have neither today... I can shoot the 9mm guns much quicker... YMMV
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I too had a G23 (won it actually in a match) that came with both the .40 and 9mm barrels. I thought it was the cat's meow... at first. Gone, also. It might not be a bad choice for today's ammo shortage, though, if you're trying to have at least one of each caliber.
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Yes, this severe ammo shortage is putting a pinch on everyone.
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BillT, why settle for 2nd best when you can get 10 MM ?
Something else to think about, "European style gun control" includes bans on "military" calibers, that would ban your 40, but not my 10 mm. ;D
Had a good laugh when THAT little detail sank in. ;D
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BillT, why settle for 2nd best when you can get 10 MM ?
Something else to think about, "European style gun control" includes bans on "military" calibers, that would ban your 40, but not my 10 mm. ;D
Had a good laugh when THAT little detail sank in. ;D
I agree. All the .40 S&W amounts to is a, "10 MM Special".
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I agree. All the .40 S&W amounts to is a, "10 MM Special".
The 40 is like the "9MM short" also known as the .380.
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The 40 is like the "9MM short" also known as the .380.
40 S&W = 10mm Kurz ?
10 mm Not so special ? ;D
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.40SW = Short and Weak
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Those of us who bother to look, and since I sell guns now, I look, know that ballistically there is very little gain with the .40 S&W over the 9mm parabelum!
I have sold several.40’s to people who are convinced otherwise but sadly, we don’t really “sell” guns at Cabela’s, we merely do the paperwork to finalize the transaction.
I prefer talking to women in that regard if they don’t have some dipstick husband or boyfriend or if they do, they tell him to go play in archery for a bit! LOL
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I also have a couple of guns in .357. Sig. I don’t shoot them so much as keep them for they’re oddity. It slaps steel hard and is fun to shoot at longer ranges. What was the point of this cartridge?
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. What was the point of this cartridge?
God only knows, It's a Swiss thing. Like their rifles. ;D
Could say the same thing about the rounded off sorta saw thing on their knives. WHY ? ;D
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........ What was the point of this cartridge?
Originally, it was an attempt to introduce .357 Magnum power into an auto pistol. The problem is, just like the 10 MM, it's been downloaded by the ammo manufacturers to well below it's original ballistics. Blame the lawyers because it's happening across the board. Factory Weatherby ammo is pathetic these days, compared to what was loaded by Weatherby in the 60's. Same with the .44 Magnum, and several others.
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It's pointless to introduce new calibers or systems unless it is enough better to justify the expense of conversion.
A civilian here and there will buy anything any one else will sell, even if just for the novelty of it.
But services and agencies are considering their existing infrastructure, part's, mag's, armorer training, etc.
Look at the Johnson rifle.
Except for the bayonet issue it was just as good as the M-1.
But the Gov already had stock piles of Garand parts, training manuals, and clipped ammo, none of which was any use to the Johnson which would have required it's own versions of these things.
Semi auto pistols are another example, until they started offering significantly more rounds, not just 1 or 2 PD's found it more practical to just stick with revolvers.
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I was just noting, this thread has actually been staying on topic.
Ya'll feeling OK ?
Or is it just the fun of bad mouthing all the cult calibers ?
I have to say, it DOES make a fun change from 9 vs 45. ;D
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I can confirm that people will but just about anything for no other reason than “because”!
I sold a kid a black powder pepper box repop after trying to explain (with a lot of associates opinions) that it was probably LESS accurate than a rock outside of a few feet!
He was only 18 so he couldn’t buy powder or primer either!
He bought it anyway!
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I can confirm that people will but just about anything for no other reason than “because”!
Agree. Look at all of these Winchester, "short fat wonder" cartridges. Along with the Remington SAUM's, (short action ultra Magnum's). Most are either obsolete, or else are very difficult to find ammo and brass for. None of them delivered anything ballistically that their long action counterparts have been doing for decades. The .300 Winchester Magnum has been around since 1963, and still performs just as well as the day it was introduced. It was just all of sudden, "out of style" to have a cartridge with a belt on it. That lasted 15 minutes.
This whole deal about having a short powder column increasing accuracy may be provable on paper, or in a lab. But it doesn't matter when you're hunting and shooting from field positions anyway. Some of these cartridges, like the .223 WSSM bordered on the ridiculous. They were of such large diameter, and so short, they fed like a bowling ball through a garden hose. Not to mention it burned out barrels in as little as 400 rounds on some rifles. You can buy many of these calibers for pennies on the dollar today...... Assuming you can even find them.
Pistol rounds are much the same. Remember the .45 GAP? Another "solution" to a problem that never existed. I see ammo for it once and a while, but it's expensive compared to plain .45 ACP Ball. Then there was the .32 H&R Magnum, and a slew of others that grew out of the 80's and 90's. All are slowly fading away.
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I was just noting, this thread has actually been staying on topic.
Ya'll feeling OK ?
So how about the 6mm ARC. Destined to stick around?
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In my old age, I am far more cautious before I jump into new calibers. I still have not jumped on this whole 6.5 Creedmore bandwagon. And I doubt I will. Simply because with the exception of a bit less recoil, I really don't see that thing doing anything the .300 Winchester Magnum can do, of which I own 3. Gun companies back in the 50's and 60's knew what the hell they were doing. And even with the newer, high energy powders they have today, (of which many can be applied to the older cartridges as well), they still haven't improved enough to make that much of an honest difference.
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The 6.5 is only useful compared to more traditional rounds at ranges over 600 yards.
Other than " new shiney" there is no reason to own one other thsn long range target
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The .327 federal mag should be more popular. Just seems like it’s fading away. I have a Henry lever gun that’s a hoot to shoot. Just seems odd that it’s cheaper to feed my marlin .357
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The 6.5 is only useful compared to more traditional rounds at ranges over 600 yards.
Other than " new shiney" there is no reason to own one other thsn long range target
But it is an actual improvement, instead of JUST new.
Another one I will suggest is a legitimate improvement is .300 Black Out.
It's what .7.62X51 should have been. Manageable in full auto.
As for 327 Federal it won't be adopted by any agencies, but civilian sales will keep it alive the way they have the rest of the 31/32 calibers.
It's been a favorite for 200 years and isn't going away.
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One of the earlier posts asked WTH is the purpose of 357 Sig.
I found an answer, but kept getting side tracked.
It's like 356TSW, a gamer gimmick to get High power rating in IPSC with a 9mm projectile.
Both calibers were killed by a rule change.
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One of the earlier posts asked WTH is the purpose of 357 Sig.
I found an answer, but kept getting side tracked.
It's like 356TSW, a gamer gimmick to get High power rating in IPSC with a 9mm projectile.
Both calibers were killed by a rule change.
so was 9x25 dillion, only it is actually a very intresting cartridge in its own right. A 9 mm 125 grain@1700 fps out a 6" 1911 is 200fps faster than a 357 mag out of same barrel lenght. You also have more rounds. I built an ar in it. Never got it to run 100%( googled if any one had done it, thr only posts i found were mine from several years before, posted here) i am getting 2250 out of a 16" barrel. That is some serious hurt down range from a pistol carbine.
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Some of the calibers mentioned were developed for countries that don't allow ownership of firearms in military calibers.
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Any one remember .40AE ? ;D
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Any one remember .40AE ? ;D
It was the .41 Action Express. It was based on a .41 Magnum case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express
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I have significant hearing loss in my left ear, in great part due to being a USPSA range officer during they 9x25 years
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I have significant hearing loss in my left ear, in great part due to being a USPSA range officer during they 9x25 years
my understanding it was destroying peoples wrists and elbows too. I can not ecen imagine shooting several thousand rounds of it a week.
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It was the .41 Action Express. It was based on a .41 Magnum case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express
That's the one, It was backed by FN Herstal, and IWI.
You could get Uzi's and High Powers in it.
A bunch of others were planning on it but it died to quick.
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It was the .41 Action Express. It was based on a .41 Magnum case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express
IMI , 941, was a .41 cal pistil, used a 9mm size rebated rim, came with a spare 9mm barrel and magazines.
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I have significant hearing loss in my left ear, in great part due to being a USPSA range officer during they 9x25 years
Me too. In fact I'm totally deaf in my left ear. (Benign inner ear tumor at age 12). And have about 65% remaining in my right ear. (50 years of shooting). And severe Tinnitus to top it all off. Most common words in my vocabulary = Huh? and What?
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And severe Tinnitus to top it all off. Most common words in my vocabulary = Huh? and What?
Followed by my wife cursing at me for not hearing her!
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Followed by my wife cursing at me for not hearing her!
Exactly
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Followed by my wife cursing at me for not hearing her!
Poor Marshall . ;D
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my ENT commented that a lot of left ear hearing loss of those of us that started driving in the pre car air conditioner days, was that we drove with the driver side window down, with exposure to wind noise
I still prefer to drive with the window down when not on the Interstate
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This is why I love it here this time of year. It's one of the few times during the year when we don't have to use heat or A/C while driving. It's about the only time I ever use that silly Sun Roof I paid for, but didn't want. (The car came with it).