The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: TAB on April 10, 2008, 11:22:42 PM
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For mag disconnects?
I don't care one way or another... Some people really think they are the devil...
Infact I honestly can't come up with any "cons" to having one. I also can not find even a single case where a mag disconnect failed cuasing a OSM. There has been lots of cases; however, were a leo droped the mag in a struggle for thier gun and it saved thier life.
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They make for a lousy trigger pull
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They make for a lousy trigger pull
You know I've heard that alot, but the only gun where people can show where the trigger pull got better ( other then they think it got better so it got better) is on the BHP.
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You know I've heard that alot, but the only gun where people can show where the trigger pull got better ( other then they think it got better so it got better) is on the BHP.
I think it's a case of documentation, not imagination. But even so, if you THINK the trigger is better, then for all practicle purposes it IS better, for you. Placebos work.
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Infact I honestly can't come up with any "cons" to having one.
How 'bout this scenario....
We both have guns which use magazines. Mine doesn't have the mag disconnect.
Both of us lose, abuse, bend, fold, spindle or mutilate our magazine.
I can still shoot even if it's only one round at a time - you can't.
Which gun would you rather have in your holster when caught with your pants down and the feces just hit the air handler?
I'll take the one that still allows me to feed myself even if I don't have the luxury of multiple shots.
A pocket full of ammo isn't going to do much good if the gun doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger.
BTW - what's an "OSM" in english?
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I took a new Cetme to the range once years ago, drove an hour to get there and discovered I'd forgotten the Magazines on the table, (I put them there so "I wouldn't forget them) It was the most high tech single shot on the firing line, and after the razzing my friends gave me I have NEVER let that happen again ! ;D
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As to trigger pull, the trigger pull on my Browning HP was horrible until I had the mag safety removed. My experience with S&W autos and their trigger pull is that with two of the three S&W autos that I have owned (M41, M2206) have decent trigger pulls. A M3906 that I just sold to a friend had a fair to poor trigger pull when I bought it new way back when. However, I had a gunsmith do a remarkable tune job on this gun and it turned out to have an excellent trigger that came close to my custom tuned S&W revolvers despite having the mag safety.
As to function, my 2 cents is that I prefer a gun not to have a mag safety. Given the way in which I handle my firearms, it offers no safety benefit to me.
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OSM=
Oh
Sh*T
Moment
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Here is why there is hate:
If my gun is loaded it should go bang, and not need an internal magazine based safety.
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We both have guns which use magazines. Mine doesn't have the mag disconnect.
Both of us lose, abuse, bend, fold, spindle or mutilate our magazine.
BTW - what's an "OSM" in english?
solution, dont abuse your magazine nor your gun... but in the slim chance that you do.. in the stressfull sitution of having to use your handgun as personel defense are you 100% (NO B.S.) positive that u will be able to remove the threat with 1 bullet reload and fire again? in that situation it might be better to grab a bat or a knife and get up close and personel
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solution, dont abuse your magazine nor your gun... but in the slim chance that you do.. in the stressfull sitution of having to use your handgun as personel defense are you 100% (NO B.S.) positive that u will be able to remove the threat with 1 bullet reload and fire again? in that situation it might be better to grab a bat or a knife and get up close and personel
Imagine this: You accidentally manipulate the mag release. You know have one chamber round, not a 1 bullet reload. Now the gun can't go bang.
While in the holster the guns mag release gets pressed, so before the fight starts the mag isn't seated or it is gone. Now you can't even get a shot off without needing to slap a new mag in.
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solution, dont abuse your magazine nor your gun... but in the slim chance that you do.. in the stressfull sitution of having to use your handgun as personel defense are you 100% (NO B.S.) positive that u will be able to remove the threat with 1 bullet reload and fire again? in that situation it might be better to grab a bat or a knife and get up close and personel
Yes I can, that is the purpose of training and practice.
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solution, dont abuse your magazine nor your gun... but in the slim chance that you do.. in the stressfull sitution of having to use your handgun as personel defense are you 100% (NO B.S.) positive that u will be able to remove the threat with 1 bullet reload and fire again? in that situation it might be better to grab a bat or a knife and get up close and personel
That's not a solution, that's a dream.
Stuff happens to guns and magazines. If you haven't worn out or broken a gun you haven't been shooting enough.
(One thing about revolvers, if you have any of it, you have all of it. - Bill Jordan?)
Having a Plan B is pretty much standard procedure if you are using a handgun, aka-popgun, for self defense.
No matter what gee whiz bullet you buy or how good the ballistics look on paper, it's still a weak, low velocity round if it's fired out of a handgun. If you want REAL power you go to a long gun. Trouble is, they're to darn hard to stick in your waistband.
So you might have to grab that bat or knife or rock or anything else you can get your hands on for the amount of time it takes for your hits to take effect.
Firing single shot is BETTER THAN NOT FIRING AT ALL!
As I said, it can still feed me if needed.
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If you want REAL power you go to a long gun. Trouble is, they're to darn hard to stick in your waistband.
Unless you want to walk like Chester on Gunsmoke ;D
I hope thats a Winchester in your pocket and your not happy to see me ;D
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As to trigger pull, the trigger pull on my Browning HP was horrible until I had the mag safety removed. My experience with S&W autos and their trigger pull is that with two of the three S&W autos that I have owned (M41, M2206) have decent trigger pulls. A M3906 that I just sold to a friend had a fair to poor trigger pull when I bought it new way back when. However, I had a gunsmith do a remarkable tune job on this gun and it turned out to have an excellent trigger that came close to my custom tuned S&W revolvers despite having the mag safety.
As to function, my 2 cents is that I prefer a gun not to have a mag safety. Given the way in which I handle my firearms, it offers no safety benefit to me.
Wait a second, Horrible? Worse than a Glock worse than a XD, or a Ruger? I have a BHP and I shoot IDPA with it. I would love to remove the mag safety but I can't. Due to the rules. I admit that the trigger does gets better when you remove the mag safe, but come on horrible? I had a gunsmith do a trigger job on mine without removing the mag safe, and I'll bet it's better than most 1911's.
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Wait a second, Horrible? Worse than a Glock worse than a XD, or a Ruger? I have a BHP and I shoot IDPA with it. I would love to remove the mag safety but I can't. Due to the rules. I admit that the trigger does gets better when you remove the mag safe, but come on horrible? I had a gunsmith do a trigger job on mine without removing the mag safe, and I'll bet it's better than most 1911's.
I'm curious, ismram...what do you do at the end of a CoF when the SO says "...slide forward, hammer down"? Or does your BHP have a decocker? I haven't had anyone show up at one of my matches with a mag safety yet, but am curious how others handle it. I've heard other MDs say they request the shooter bring a magazine with the follower removed for this purpose.
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I'm curious, ismram...what do you do at the end of a CoF when the SO says "...slide forward, hammer down"? Or does your BHP have a decocker? I haven't had anyone show up at one of my matches with a mag safety yet, but am curious how others handle it. I've heard other MDs say they request the shooter bring a magazine with the follower removed for this purpose.
CZShooter When I load at the line I always top off with a mag with one round in it. I use that mag first, when I remove that mag if it's empty I know that I have one down the pipe (No press check needed.). At the end of the stage I show clear, then reinsert that mag and then hammer down. Like I said before I'd love to remove it but can't. I have shot at five major matches and last years Nat Champ match and I was never ask too have a mag with the follower removed. BTW my son shoots CZ's he has four of them and loves them all. Good Shooting!
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CZShooter When I load at the line I always top off with a mag with one round in it. I use that mag first, when I remove that mag if it's empty I know that I have one down the pipe (No press check needed.). At the end of the stage I show clear, then reinsert that mag and then hammer down. Like I said before I'd love to remove it but can't. I have shot at five major matches and last years Nat Champ match and I was never ask too have a mag with the follower removed. BTW my son shoots CZ's he has four of them and loves them all. Good Shooting!
ismram...you're son has good taste. ;D Thanks for the input.
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Imagine this: You accidentally manipulate the mag release. You know have one chamber round, not a 1 bullet reload. Now the gun can't go bang.
While in the holster the guns mag release gets pressed, so before the fight starts the mag isn't seated or it is gone. Now you can't even get a shot off without needing to slap a new mag in.
I was teaching a class two weeks ago that includes some movement while drawing and saw someone release a magazine. How many of us train enough to make that transition to the knife, spray etc. automatically? We need to. I've also seen mags released during competitions. Stress and adrenaline can make us do some wild stuff!
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Mag safeties and manual safeties; people love to hate 'em. Come up with all kinds of rationalizations and scenarios where they are bad things to have.
Can you fumble them? You bet! Could they get you killed? Yep. So could your seat belt and air bag.
But the stone cold facts are both are WAAAAAY more likely to save your life than take it. You fumbling w them will most likely make things interesting, not fatal. Somebody else fumbling w it is more likely to save your bacon while you get the edge back.
Illinois State Police used 'em for over 20 yrs. Have documented saves from both, no documented kills. Can't even stack the deck w suspected cases to make 'em look worse, since the number of saves exceeds the total number of officers killed. Local PD used S&Ws for over 20 yrs too, same story.
Even so, both ended up issuing Glocks. The fed's (DOJ/DHS) pistol contracts specify NO to both. Common sense often isn't so common. Heck, took several hundred yrs for the world's armies to get rid of those shiny, bright uniforms on the battlefield... ;)
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Mag safeties and manual safeties; people love to hate 'em. Come up with all kinds of rationalizations and scenarios where they are bad things to have.
Can you fumble them? You bet! Could they get you killed? Yep. So could your seat belt and air bag.
But the stone cold facts are both are WAAAAAY more likely to save your life than take it. You fumbling w them will most likely make things interesting, not fatal. Somebody else fumbling w it is more likely to save your bacon while you get the edge back.
Illinois State Police used 'em for over 20 yrs. Have documented saves from both, no documented kills. Can't even stack the deck w suspected cases to make 'em look worse, since the number of saves exceeds the total number of officers killed. Local PD used S&Ws for over 20 yrs too, same story.
Even so, both ended up issuing Glocks. The fed's (DOJ/DHS) pistol contracts specify NO to both. Common sense often isn't so common. Heck, took several hundred yrs for the world's armies to get rid of those shiny, bright uniforms on the battlefield... ;)
Why not teach cops to keep their guns rather than implement a poor safety device?
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Why not teach cops to keep their guns rather than implement a poor safety device?
Are you trying too tell us that you are so good, that there is no way someone could get ahold of your gun?
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Why not teach cops to keep their guns rather than implement a poor safety device?
Because the bad guys train hard to wrestle guns.
Rather the bad guy spends a few seconds trying to figure out why the cop's gun don't work, giving our hero time to:
1) crush his skull with a nightstick
2) tase him
3) shoot him with the backup .38 every cops SHOULD carry.
Or
4) all of the above.
Weapon retention - sometimes if you love something, you should set it free.
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Are you trying too tell us that you are so good, that there is no way someone could get ahold of your gun?
I'm not a Cop and in an armed confrontation no one is going to take my weapon. because as soon as they attempt it I will shoot them, That is why if you get TRAINING, you are tought to keep distance between your weapon and the person you may need to use it on and keep it close to your body so that when they make their move all you need to do is pull the trigger. You have had the same sort of question for EVERY answer posted. The fact is if you get PROPER TRAINING a mag safety will make no difference as these situations will be unlikely, if you DO NOT get good training then all the mechanical safeties in the world will not save your ignorant a$$
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People (in and out of uniform) lose their guns for the same reasons they miss their targets when it's for real; "stuff" happens despite all our training to head it off at the pass.
Retention training, security holsters, mag/manual safeties.
Take some, all, or none of that as far as you feel comfortable. If you want to Mexican carry your 1911 w the pinned grip safety and cut off trigger guard off safe, have at it.
The trend is definitlely away from mag/manual safeties, though the US military appeared to be interested in a manual safety for the indefinitley postponed JCP/CP.
I like both of 'em, though my current choices only have a manual safety (SA 1911 and HK 45C), both carried in a Blackhawk CQC holster w the retention feature.
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I'm not a Cop and in an armed confrontation no one is going to take my weapon. because as soon as they attempt it I will shoot them, That is why if you get TRAINING, you are tought to keep distance between your weapon and the person you may need to use it on and keep it close to your body so that when they make their move all you need to do is pull the trigger. You have had the same sort of question for EVERY answer posted. The fact is if you get PROPER TRAINING a mag safety will make no difference as these situations will be unlikely, if you DO NOT get good training then all the mechanical safeties in the world will not save your ignorant a$$
WOW! What arrogance! You must truly think your something specail. No one can ever get the drop on me becuse I've had training. Well so have I, but I'm not that naive!
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WOW! What arrogance! You must truly think your something specail. No one can ever get the drop on me becuse I've had training. Well so have I, but I'm not that naive!
I'd be offended if I did not consider YOUR previous posts on this thread. The only safety that REALLY matters is the one between the shooters ears.
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I'd be offended if I did not consider YOUR previous posts on this thread. The only safety that REALLY matters is the one between the shooters ears.
Ok, you got me there. Ouch! I see no one can take your typing fingers away from you either! ;D
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No need for fussing, boys.
Everyone has their own ideas of weapon retention.
The fact that we have differing opinions means we've all thought of it, and HAVE A PLAN, be if off-switches/buttons, retention straps, backup tools, or retention stances.
I feel sad for those who don't have a plan, and will end up merely dithering while the mook who disarmed them opens fire.
The smart people here, I don't worry for, whichever plan they opt for.
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Wait a second, Horrible? Worse than a Glock worse than a XD, or a Ruger? I have a BHP and I shoot IDPA with it. I would love to remove the mag safety but I can't. Due to the rules. I admit that the trigger does gets better when you remove the mag safe, but come on horrible? I had a gunsmith do a trigger job on mine without removing the mag safe, and I'll bet it's better than most 1911's.
Yep. Horrible. As in really bad. Crap.
Not the half of it either. My (all Belgium) HP would not feed ball ammo much less any factory hollow point load. As a weapon, it would have made a piss-poor hammer.
None of that really mattered because before I got it I had planned to send it out to be tuned regardless if had a crap trigger (or not) or couldn't feed itself. In early 1980 I sent it to Austin Behlert and he did his magic on it. New trigger, took off the mag safety, installed a low mount & rounded Bomar rear sight, added an extended thumb safety, Wolf springs, ramped, throated and smoothed the action to a sharp 4# break. Today, my Browning High Power is a work of art that I would bet my life on. Don't think I would compete with it but if my daughter ever wanted to I would let her.
Now, you may be thinking ... was it the action/tuning that Behert did on my HP or was it the mag safety removal that improved my Browning? From what Mr. Behlert told me, the key to the best possible action job on the High Power is to remove the mag safety. I believe that back then Bill Laughridge also said the same regarding the excellent work he did (and still does) on Browning High Powers.
Today, there are probably some Browning High Powers out there that have "nice" triggers on them with the mag safety. Again, back in the late 70's and early 80's one of the steps in performing an action-job was to remove the safety. Brings up a question that maybe someone could comment on ... would a gunsmith (today) even remove a factory safety on a handgun?
As to this thread and why the hate, I don't hate mag disconnects. Given my situation I just don't need them. What I DO HATE on guns is large print on the slides or barrels. That and "warnings" really muck up the looks of a gun.
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Yep. Horrible. As in really bad. Crap.
Not the half of it either. My (all Belgium) HP would not feed ball ammo much less any factory hollow point load. As a weapon, it would have made a piss-poor hammer.
None of that really mattered because before I got it I had planned to send it out to be tuned regardless if had a crap trigger (or not) or couldn't feed itself. In early 1980 I sent it to Austin Behlert and he did his magic on it. New trigger, took off the mag safety, installed a low mount & rounded Bomar rear sight, added an extended thumb safety, Wolf springs, ramped, throated and smoothed the action to a sharp 4# break. Today, my Browning High Power is a work of art that I would bet my life on. Don't think I would compete with it but if my daughter ever wanted to I would let her.
Now, you may be thinking ... was it the action/tuning that Behert did on my HP or was it the mag safety removal that improved my Browning? From what Mr. Behlert told me, the key to the best possible action job on the High Power is to remove the mag safety. I believe that back then Bill Laughridge also said the same regarding the excellent work he did (and still does) on Browning High Powers.
Today, there are probably some Browning High Powers out there that have "nice" triggers on them with the mag safety. Again, back in the late 70's and early 80's one of the steps in performing an action-job was to remove the safety. Brings up a question that maybe someone could comment on ... would a gunsmith (today) even remove a factory safety on a handgun?
As to this thread and why the hate, I don't hate mag disconnects. Given my situation I just don't need them. What I DO HATE on guns is large print on the slides or barrels. That and "warnings" really muck up the looks of a gun.
I have a newer model BHP. Maybe the older model's trigger's were worse, this wasn't bad out of the box. I had Jim Garthwait do a trigger job on mine. He is really GOOD! Even with the mag safe the trigger is SWEET!!
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Because the bad guys train hard to wrestle guns.
Rather the bad guy spends a few seconds trying to figure out why the cop's gun don't work, giving our hero time to:
1) crush his skull with a nightstick
2) tase him
3) shoot him with the backup .38 every cops SHOULD carry.
Or
4) all of the above.
Weapon retention - sometimes if you love something, you should set it free.
It's a two way street, as the assailant may have not released the magazine. Now what is the safety going to stop? Nothing, the cop should have kept his gun.
Often times officers are not trained when it is best to pull a gun or best to pull out their pr-24. Sometimes hand to hand techniques are much better if they are already in such close proximity.
Many departments send you to the academy once and every year you qualify. State Police will often do yearly training to go with that, but if they don't practice afterwards it isn't going to mean squat. I have family in law enforcement, so I am not ignorant on the subject.
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It's a two way street, as the assailant may have not released the magazine. Now what is the safety going to stop? Nothing, the cop should have kept his gun.
In a wrestling match for a firearm with a magazine safety, the utilizer, TRAINED with said gun, deactivates the weapon by dumping the mag. It's amazing how you've never seen a weapon retention situation with more than one person handling the weapon. Rather than pulling the trigger with the muzzle potentially in an uncontrolled situation and MURDERING a bystander, deactivate the gun and fall back on a secondary tool.
Often times officers are not trained when it is best to pull a gun or best to pull out their pr-24. Sometimes hand to hand techniques are much better if they are already in such close proximity.
Zero argument there.
Many departments send you to the academy once and every year you qualify. State Police will often do yearly training to go with that, but if they don't practice afterwards it isn't going to mean squat. I have family in law enforcement, so I am not ignorant on the subject.
Private citizens or law enforcement officers sent through the Lindell Training program get that taught to them as an option. One example of a teacher who instructs on proper use of a magazine safety is Massad Ayoob owner and chief instructor of the Lethal Force Institute who has been teaching handgun retention techniques for 30 years, and has records of eight Illinois State Police officers who LIVED because of a magazine disconnect in the first two years of the Model 39 Smith and Wesson's adoption.
But hey, pull the trigger when someone has their hand wrapped around your gun. Maybe you won't blow your daughter's head off or cripple your wife. No skin off my personal nose.
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Ok, you got me there. Ouch! I see no one can take your typing fingers away from you either! ;D
FinGER, singuler, BUT IT"S SMOKING ;D
No need for fussing, boys.
Everyone has their own ideas of weapon retention.
The fact that we have differing opinions means we've all thought of it, and HAVE A PLAN, be if off-switches/buttons, retention straps, backup tools, or retention stances.
I feel sad for those who don't have a plan, and will end up merely dithering while the mook who disarmed them opens fire.
The smart people here, I don't worry for, whichever plan they opt for.
No big deal, on other threads we're agreeing so it all works out. ;D
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I think everyone on here can agree to disagree on one point or another, on this subject. But I think we can all agree that someone else's hand on your gun is a very bad situation. Use whatever saftey device, training, tool. keys in there eyes, fist, ellbow, foot, knee, batton, teeth, knife, mace, Backup Gun, and the 50 other things that I can't think of right now too get that P.O.S's hand off your weapon.
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Truly high road (to borrow from another gun forum I like). sorry for being snarky, Ismram.
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I think everyone on here can agree to disagree on one point or another, on this subject. But I think we can all agree that someone else's hand on your gun is a very bad situation. Use whatever saftey device, training, tool. keys in there eyes, fist, ellbow, foot, knee, batton, teeth, knife, mace, Backup Gun, and the 50 other things that I can't think of right now too get that P.O.S's hand off your weapon.
Amen & well said!
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Truly high road (to borrow from another gun forum I like). sorry for being snarky, Ismram.
No problem, I just want all us "Good Guy's" to be healthy and safe. So we can continue to fight ALL who want too take our rights away. :)
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No problem, I just want all us "Good Guy's" to be healthy and safe. So we can continue to fight ALL who want too take our rights away. :)
Got that right. ;D
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+ 1 for Haz and did you think of all the other volcanoes? What about he trees cut down to publish Time magazine?