The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Motodeficient on December 08, 2012, 06:40:46 AM
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After I started listening to Michael Bane's podcasts, I added a package to my Dish programming with the Outdoor Channel, Sportsman Channel, and a couple others.
Michael is constantly saying on his podcasts that the gun industry is becoming more and more of a "shooting" industry compared to the "hunting" industry of years past.
If this is true, why are there so many darn hunting shows on the outdoor channel and the sportsman channel, compared to the number of shooting or gun shows? I love guns, I could watch gun shows all day. But I am not a hunter, and I do not want to watch hunting shows. If Michael is correct, and I believe he is, why aren't these channels following suit?
I am thinking about cancelling this programming, because there just aren't enough shows that I care to watch on these channels.
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Because a lot of the industry is still stuck in the 50's - 60's mindset of "Sportsmen" means hunting and fishing .
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Yeah, thats what I am saying. But with Michael Bane, a person who really knows the heartbeat of the gun culture, working for Outdoor Channel, you would think they would take the lead and address this programming deficiency and gap in the market.
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Baby boomers have the most disposable income .
If they are at all into guns they are probably of the same mindset having grown up with "Field and Stream", Fur Fish and Game" etc.
So the networks cater to the people who will most profit their advertisers.
It's changing though.
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Marketing, marketing, marketing!
The accessory business is much larger in hunting than in competition and self defense. After that there are all the outfitters, the state and province tourism, and businesses like auto manufactuers, boat builders, and atv companies that advertise their versatility for hunting and fishing. When was the last time you saw a Chevy pickup ad with a holster on the center counsel, a Ford pickup with an AR or shotgun mount on the dash, or a Dodge with gun storage ... oh wait ... Dodge did put in gun storage, but it is a flip top box on the box side.
Next you face the culture that has us sitting around the Thanksgiving table or the Christmas tree hearing stories of Grandpa and grandma camping, hunting and fishing. We do not hear much about the time Great Uncle Ed smoked El Presidente.
Outdoor channel advertises their Wednesday Night On The Range, but we have a hard time keeping the hunting shows out. I am a hunter, and I enjoy the shows, but I wish the industry would step up and provide enough sponsorship to support our shooting shows.
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I understand that. But there is still a disproportionate amount of hunting programming. I'd say between outdoor channel and sportsman channel its 90% programming geared towards hunters. Thats just a guess of course, but I truly doubt that hunting people make up 90% of the firearms industry.
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But, yes we did, Moto. My Dad reared me hunting and fishing, back in the days when you could hunt rabbits, quail, pheasants, squirrels, dove and deer IN MARYLAND! I reared my son hunting and fishing, but alas quail and pheasants are but a memory here. My first reason for buying a gun was hunting. I even bought my Super Blackhawk .44mag for hunting as it was the only handgun at the time that was legal for deer here. I've since purchased a defense handgun, but no defense rifles or shotguns. I notice my son, however, is reflective of the changing times. He is more into range shooting both his hunting and self-defense firearms. He and his circle of friends are changing the nature of shooting sports. Accuracy and mating weapon to game was my day. Accuracy and firepower is becoming the charge for my son's day. So be patient, Moto, the programming will change probably as my son's wallet outpaces mine. Until it does, however, spend your money on cartidges, not programming!
And, comes the revolution, all your paper shooting may come in handy if you can stomach cleaning and butchering what you kill. Both are good practice for what seems to be on the horizon.
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But, yes we did, Moto. My Dad reared me hunting and fishing, back in the days when you could hunt rabbits, quail, pheasants, squirrels, dove and deer IN MARYLAND! I reared my son hunting and fishing, but alas quail and pheasants are but a memory here. My first reason for buying a gun was hunting. I even bought my Super Blackhawk .44mag for hunting as it was the only handgun at the time that was legal for deer here. I've since purchased a defense handgun, but no defense rifles or shotguns. I notice my son, however, is reflective of the changing times. He is more into range shooting both his hunting and self-defense firearms. He and his circle of friends are changing the nature of shooting sports. Accuracy and mating weapon to game was my day. Accuracy and firepower is becoming the charge for my son's day. So be patient, Moto, the programming will change probably as my son's wallet outpaces mine. Until it does, however, spend your money on cartidges, not programming!
And, comes the revolution, all your paper shooting may come in handy if you can stomach cleaning and butchering what you kill. Both are good practice for what seems to be on the horizon.
Like I posted earlier, old baby Boomers stuck in the 50's and 60's.
Changing health issues, increased demands on free time, population growth leading to greater travel distance, reduced habitat, reduced available land to hunt on and higher costs are all contributing to to the large decrease in hunting over the last 50 years.
The idea of a "hunting lease", for one example, is something I never even dreamed of seeing in the US, but apparently they are fairly common outside New England.
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Moto,
Go back to my first line "Marketing, marketing, marketing."
We can contact Outdoor Channel, and we need to to let them know what we want. It has power. Over the years many shows were brought back because public outcry was different than market research. Touched By An Angel with Michael Landon is a prime example. However, we need to also contact manufacturers and distributors, and let them know what we think and want. Those we support will support us if we let them know.
By the way, do you think that Larry and Brenda Potterfield expanded into hunting and camping because the sport shooting, plinking and self defense market are the largest share of firearms and accessories wanted in the market place?
A great place to start with your contacts and the information relayed is that the more general broadcasters are picking up on self defense and sport shooting, but they are doing it as entertainment and whacky reality shows. Stations like the Outdoor Channel have access to the professionals, like Michael Bane etal, that can produce programing that educates.
Also, let Outdoor Channel know your concern over the lack of programing that you are looking for. Let Dish, Direct, or your cable provider know the same. They want your $10 bucks a month for that tier of programming, and they will respond accordingly if enough people push it.
I might just as well keep rambling: There is a place and a demand for what you ask for. It is proven by other stations dabbling in it. However, nobody seems to be able to hold the audience. Let's get a specialty station like Outdoor to expand. Express your wishes (have I said that before).
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The idea of a "hunting lease", for one example, is something I never even dreamed of seeing in the US, but apparently they are fairly common outside New England.
Funny you should mention that. I live in Maine, and was talking with someone at work today that is from Texas. He told me he hunts on a "hunting lease". I didn't know about them either.
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Funny you should mention that. I live in Maine, and was talking with someone at work today that is from Texas. He told me he hunts on a "hunting lease". I didn't know about them either.
"Maine Prepper" from Youtube is from Texas.
I lived there for a dozen years.. I loved/miss it alot.. Where ya from up there??
Remember the one flap that the press could dig up on Rick Perry on where his family hunted? That was a lease. There's lots of them. Check Gunbroker. Probably even Craigs List.. (The gun counter at Cabelas or LL Beans up there too.)
Welcome to the board, btw!
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I am in Southwestern Maine.
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So while I forgot what I was gonna reply here... :-[
"Wednesday Night at the Range" on Outdoor Channel is a good start. Even CBS and NBC, on their "sports" channels have things like 3-Gun shooting shows now. It really is changing. I can find "shooting" shows three nights a week now. As recently as two years ago, that was not the case.. Discovery has em. History ran Top Shot for a few seasons. I think that one just ran it's course though.
I suspect that there's a thought of not wanting to get "labeled" as catering to crazies, in the board rooms too..
They're there!
I lived in Limerick. If you're looking for a VERY GOOD FFL, PM me. My guy in Sanford will take care of you. I'll let him know you're coming and he really will take care of you.. Let me know..
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Cool, Limerick is not all that far from me, maybe 45 minutes away. Thanks for that offer! I have an FFL shop that I use that I am pretty happy with!
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Cool, Limerick is not all that far from me, maybe 45 minutes away. Thanks for that offer! I have an FFL shop that I use that I am pretty happy with!
;)
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Lebanon Me for about 6 years, Rochester NH for about 15 .
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I also want more gun shows. To me, even the gun shows are a tiny bit lacking. I'm an electrician and mechanic. I want more shows about the guns themselves...How they work in detail. The shows where they tour a factory is nice but I want to see the guns taken down and shown what makes them tick. Some may find a show like that boring unless they dabble as I do in smithing. I only watch TV on wed. night for this reason. I spend a lot of time on youtube to get my gunsmithing fix. Just my two pennies.
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As a machinist and former unit armorer I agree with you .
The problem is that most viewers are only slightly past the "what end does the bullet come out" stage .
Start talking about roller locking delayed blow back and they'll be asleep or switched over to "Dancing with the Stars".
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Tom,
I agree with you. The entire broadcast system is dumbing down, and attempting to drag us with it. You used to be able to tune into DIY and learn how to build, refurbish, or maintain things; there was an aircraft channel where they actually had shows that showed aviation tech items, but they showed aviation vacations, history, and even building your own aircraft (this is the network that became the Military Channel); and you could find stations of all kinds of other interests that actually taught you. Today nearly everything is becoming an over drama soaked cuss fest and short time limits to do stuff. Larry Potterfield is still trying to teach us in is advertising, but he needs to do it in a promotional format, because they won't build an entire show around it.
If broadcast media claims that we are too deep into our podcasts and dvd's it is only because they forced us to go that way!
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Heck, I was happy if I could catch Norm Abrams on the "Yankee Workshop".
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Heck, I was happy if I could catch Norm Abrams on the "Yankee Workshop".
And they have axed that as well >:( My father, before he abandoned us, and my uncles taught me I could do anything I set my mind to. I progressed to being able to build a complete house, including furnishings and cabinets, through what I learned in Sunset publications and shows like New Yankee Workshop. Our son has become quite handy and a good craftsman, and he credits these shows he grew up enduring as I watched.
Now, when does Dancing come on ... hope it doesn't interfere with wheel this week.
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Not sure that I agree with the assessment. I am watching a "shooting" show nearly five nights a week. My argument; you have on the Pursuit Channel (DISH 240) Guns and Gear TV, Guntalk TV, Doug's Koenig's Championship Season, Conceal and Carry school, American Trigger Sports, What if, and Trigger Time... On the Outdoor Channel (DISH 396) American Rifleman Television, Babes with Bullets, MidwayUSA’s The Best Defense, Choose Your Weapon, Elite Tactical Unit: S.W.A.T, Gun Stories, DownRange.TV, Rapid Fire!, Shooting Gallery, and Shooting USA.....On the Sportman's Channel (DISH 395) there is; Guns & Ammo, TAC TV, Student of the Gun, Shoot Straight with Chad Schearer, and Personal Defense TV. Guys and Gals, as much as I would like to see more Shooting Shows and I know that I missed some but, there is only so much time I can spend watching TV. If you look between the three channels that I watch, just about every aspect of personal shooting is covered. not sure about you all I'm good.
Chuck
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a friend of mine used to have his own hunting footage internet forum. He sold that and was looking to put on his own shooting cable TV show. This was probably close to ten years ago. My buddy went on to say that the network was going to charge $35,000 for a half hour block of airtime. So he said that whoever produces the show it is up to them to get businesses to buy advertising on the show.
I think a half hour show actually lasts like 22 minutes. so you have 8 minutes of airtime that is commercials.
How long is a commercial now? 30 seconds? 20 seconds? 10 seconds?
So that 8 minutes of commercials has to pay north of $35,000, probably closer to $50,000 to pay for the cameras, the cameramen, video editing, the host, the producer, gas, lodging, etc.
I think the wave of the future is going to be YouTube. There are like three guys that do the PowerFactorShow channel on YouTube.
There are a few advantages to YouTube:
1. It is free. No buying a block of airtime for a season.
2. No commercials right in the middle of your show.
3. Easily searchable and archived
4. Can watch anytime at your leisure
5. Can share the video with others
6. Can comment/interact directly with the "producers"
7. Youtube actually has a partnering program where you get paid each time your video is watched.
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This is a question for the Ages, and since I'm on a 6 hour layover at Tokyo/Narita, I might as well take a shot at it:
Hunters follow the dictum of "Steel Magnolia" -- the difference between man and the lower animals is the ability to accessorize.
Hunters buy a staggering amount of accessories. So do shooters, but it is far more Balkanized (zillions of different holster rather than that grueling choice between Mossy Oak and REALTREE). The hunting side of the industry has better PR than we do, much more aggressively telling their story. The industry until recently was far more comfortable with hunters than shooters...that Old School Tom Bogan is talking about. There are some weird intangibles out there ... the willingness of the audience to watch an interminable number of whacking Bambi shows, for instance. There's also the financial structuring of cable shows - - most are time buys, where the show producers buy a block of time from the network, then sell pieces of that time to advertisers to finance the show . They can sell to Joe Bob's Radiator Shop if they want. My shows as network originals are handled differently, and the result is often a smaller pool of big advertisers.
I'd do a dozen more shooting shows if I could, and I think both the audience and the sponsors are already there. Hopefully, the outdoor media will catch up...
...Back to Japanese game shows...
Michael B
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This is a question for the Ages, and since I'm on a 6 hour layover at Tokyo/Narita, I might as well take a shot at it:
Hunters follow the dictum of "Steel Magnolia" -- the difference between man and the lower animals is the ability to accessorize.
Hunters buy a staggering amount of accessories. So do shooters, but it is far more Balkanized (zillions of different holster rather than that grueling choice between Mossy Oak and REALTREE). The hunting side of the industry has better PR than we do, much more aggressively telling their story. The industry until recently was far more comfortable with hunters than shooters...that Old School Tom Bogan is talking about. There are some weird intangibles out there ... the willingness of the audience to watch an interminable number of whacking Bambi shows, for instance. There's also the financial structuring of cable shows - - most are time buys, where the show producers buy a block of time from the network, then sell pieces of that time to advertisers to finance the show . They can sell to Joe Bob's Radiator Shop if they want. My shows as network originals are handled differently, and the result is often a smaller pool of big advertisers.
I'd do a dozen more shooting shows if I could, and I think both the audience and the sponsors are already there. Hopefully, the outdoor media will catch up...
...Back to Japanese game shows...
Michael B
Michael,
I think you need to become like the artists in the music industry and form your own production company (if you haven't already) and market your products direct to the consumer. I am just one data point, but I do not have cable and have no plans to acquire it anytime soon. I watch just about everything online and I find the quality of the information presented is increasing every day. Heck even the production quality from some of these programs rivals what is on broadcast/cable TV.
The paradigm has shifted and I think you need to become the "Pioneer" as Joel Barker would say and embark on delivering your own content direct.
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Heck, I was happy if I could catch Norm Abrams on the "Yankee Workshop".
PBS is now working at least five stations with varied programming out of Boston Tom! NYW and TOH and Ask TOH are on every week on several! You just need to be in the right place at the right time. It's still WGBH but with several variants.
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For the last 12 years "right place at the right time" involves somewhere with a TV. ;D
"This Old House" has sucked since Norm left it to the guys from Salem.
My only gripe about NYW is that Norm always had "the tool".
Lets see him do that stuff with a chainsaw and a hammer. ;D
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For the last 12 years "right place at the right time" involves somewhere with a TV. ;D
"This Old House" has sucked since Norm left it to the guys from Salem.
My only gripe about NYW is that Norm always had "the tool".
Lets see him do that stuff with a chainsaw and a hammer. ;D
I was watching NYW some years back when the host of TOH came into the shop to borrow a miter saw! The last host, not this new guy...anyway, he was gazing at Norms wide array of expensive saws patiently waiting in their little racks hoping to be picked for the next segment!
Norm handed him a maple miter box and a back saw and bid him goodday! ;D
BTW, the NYW and the Victory Garden are located in the back yard of one of the producers of the shows! It's not Norms shop at all...
Norms been making more appearances in the last few years on TOH.
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For the last 12 years "right place at the right time" involves somewhere with a TV. ;D
"This Old House" has sucked since Norm left it to the guys from Salem.
My only gripe about NYW is that Norm always had "the tool".
Lets see him do that stuff with a chainsaw and a hammer. ;D
He started it that way, evolved to the specialty items, and at the end he was showing both. I found the final shows a good balance of here is what is available, and here is how you do it with a pocket knife - the old way.
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The drift continues....
I was watching last week and Tom Silva outfit a window with a new stool, side and head casing with nothing but a good cross cut saw, rip saw and a decent hand plane. You couldn't tell the difference between that new work and the other window that was done 150 years ago!
He really is pretty good at what does...
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The drift continues....
I was watching last week and Tom Silva outfit a window with a new stool, side and head casing with nothing but a good cross cut saw, rip saw and a decent hand plane. You couldn't tell the difference between that new work and the other window that was done 150 years ago!
He really is pretty good at what does...
+10
Tom Silva is badass!
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Silva, as demonstrated in the Saturday, December 1st episode, is to home improvement programing what Larry Potterfield is to our audience. Larry can talk sport shooting, hunting, self defense, he is a gunsmith, and a firearms safety guy. We need more Larry Potterfield, and less ...
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Larry never had his brothers house burn down.
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Larry never had his brothers house burn down.
I understand about Tommy and Dickie's house, but what does that have to do with Larry and his ability to reach a diverse audience?
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Larry does it with out an insurance settlement.
But how did we go from the Silva's to Larry Potterfield ?
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Silvas use modern technology in their business, and they also use old school basic handtools and techniques. Larry Potterfield will smith with lathes and milling machines, and he will do it hacksaws, files, rasps, and abrasive compounds.
I don't understand your insurance thing, but this is my explanation of the comparison of skills and methods.
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What burns my britches about TOH from back in the days of Bob Vila was that it was a DIY show where the phrase "sweat equity" was thrown about with the homeowners.
For quite a while now it has been Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. My mind was boggled hearing some of the numbers thrown about. $700,000 for a house and then drop another $250,000 into it. :o
Norm's New Yankee workshop was all about the product placement for Delta/Porter Cable. Then he got that widebelt sander by Timesaver. That's a $10,000 machine. :o
Getting back more on topic...
The hunting shows are kind of like a self licking icecream cone. Look at how many of them are at hunting lodges or CRP's. You just gotta know that the show's staff is getting their stay at whatever XYZ lodge "comp'ed". In exchange, the hunting lodge gets a bunch of "free" advertising.
Anywhooo... Long story short, the purpose of any medium is to sell you something.
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Back to the drift..
I still can't stand Bob Villa.. The guy got pissed every time somebody asked him to get his hands dirty..
He was much more "at home" on Home Improvements with Tim Allen..
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Tyler,
Your statement goes all the way back to one of my early comments: Tell the advertisers what you like. Anybody that is marketing is looking to reach their audience, and don't fall for the belief that it is a set formula that will not pay attention to you.
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Back to the drift..
I still can't stand Bob Villa.. The guy got pissed every time somebody asked him to get his hands dirty..
He was much more "at home" on Home Improvements with Tim Allen..
I hated Vila on Home Improvement as well.
Remember the Hot Rod build off episode ?
They had Tim in a " built" hot rod.
Vila was in a factory Dodge Prowler.
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Michael,
I think you need to become like the artists in the music industry and form your own production company (if you haven't already) and market your products direct to the consumer. I am just one data point, but I do not have cable and have no plans to acquire it anytime soon. I watch just about everything online and I find the quality of the information presented is increasing every day. Heck even the production quality from some of these programs rivals what is on broadcast/cable TV.
The paradigm has shifted and I think you need to become the "Pioneer" as Joel Barker would say and embark on delivering your own content direct.
Exactly. Take a look at the Revision3.com production company. There is a fairly recent startup that produces Internet-only video programming for the tech/geek audience. Their programming is free and ad based and is so successful, they were just acquired by Discovery. But there's no reason why a similar Internet-only shooting sports channel can't start up and be subscription based if it has quality and focused programs. If this exists, I'd also drop, in a heartbeat, my cable tier that gives me the Outdoor and Sportsman's channels. I'm also sick of the hunting vs shooting disparity.
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This is a question for the Ages, and since I'm on a 6 hour layover at Tokyo/Narita, I might as well take a shot at it:
Hunters follow the dictum of "Steel Magnolia" -- the difference between man and the lower animals is the ability to accessorize.
Hunters buy a staggering amount of accessories. So do shooters, but it is far more Balkanized (zillions of different holster rather than that grueling choice between Mossy Oak and REALTREE). The hunting side of the industry has better PR than we do, much more aggressively telling their story. The industry until recently was far more comfortable with hunters than shooters...that Old School Tom Bogan is talking about. There are some weird intangibles out there ... the willingness of the audience to watch an interminable number of whacking Bambi shows, for instance. There's also the financial structuring of cable shows - - most are time buys, where the show producers buy a block of time from the network, then sell pieces of that time to advertisers to finance the show . They can sell to Joe Bob's Radiator Shop if they want. My shows as network originals are handled differently, and the result is often a smaller pool of big advertisers.
I'd do a dozen more shooting shows if I could, and I think both the audience and the sponsors are already there. Hopefully, the outdoor media will catch up...
...Back to Japanese game shows...
Michael B
Hi Michael, thanks for your input to my question! It is appreciated. Thanks for all of the effort you put into advancing the shooting and firearms community, obviously its making a big difference.
I just happening to be listening to Down Range Radio podcast # 76 today, and you talk about the NSSF Task Force 2020 survey. You mentioned that one of the findings from the survey was that the number of hunters and the number of shooters was equal (this podcast was from 2008, so I am sure the numbers are swayed more towards shooters now). Hopefully the industry and TV programming will continue towards equalization to match the true makeup of the firearms community.
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This old house is a joke. trust me, I did exclusivly 100+ year old homes. none of stuff they did would fly out west in a historic/ presevatin distric. not even close. Most people would faint if they saw what it took to even get a permit out here, let alone pass a review board.
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This old house is a joke. trust me, I did exclusivly 100+ year old homes. none of stuff they did would fly out west in a historic/ presevatin distric. not even close. Most people would faint if they saw what it took to even get a permit out here, let alone pass a review board.
Get out of Kalifornistan! I know it's hard to believe, but there are still places in America where you can still wipe your butt without EPA, DEQ, IRS, and OSHA restrictions.
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This old house is a joke. trust me, I did exclusivly 100+ year old homes. none of stuff they did would fly out west in a historic/ presevatin distric. not even close. Most people would faint if they saw what it took to even get a permit out here, let alone pass a review board.
The houses they work on in MA are much the same TAB. We have some of the same restrictive crap you go through as well but they're not going to show that in a half hour program! Doesn't make for good TV in the least. Most of the historical stuff needs more permits than the average contractors are willing to try and get approved! That, and the old crones who are on the "town historical society" and have to approve paints, windows, siding, roofing, etc....it's a phuqing nightmare here too...
Someone mentioned 700K This Old House projects. Some of these old homes in Lexington, Concord, Boston and the surrounding towns built during the 1700-1800's are multimillion dollar properties. A 700K upgrade is pretty average.
Hell, a 500K single level ranch inside the 495 loop around Boston is a burnt out shack! Who want's to see that on TOH?
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Tim, its not the same. Atleast not the homes they do. Trust me. 700k for a remodel is not that much. the last foundation I did was $1200 per foot. you can pump 500k in to just the foundation. all bricks with hydrated lye out her. that way when it floods, you can just add another layer. Only no one has in decades. if you have ever been to old sacramento. what you think is the 1st floor is actually the 2nd. From when they filled in.
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Tim, its not the same. Atleast not the homes they do. Trust me. 700k for a remodel is not that much. the last foundation I did was $1200 per foot. you can pump 500k in to just the foundation. all bricks with hydrated lye out her. that way when it floods, you can just add another layer. Only no one has in decades. if you have ever been to old sacramento. what you think is the 1st floor is actually the 2nd. From when they filled in.
I know it's not the same but it's close to some degree! How many homes in the Sacramento area were built in the 1600's? We have a few out here... I almost moved into one from 1625 quite a few years ago... Ended up moving into a home built in 1750 in the same town! It was a lesson in historical building techniques spanning two hundred years. The lady that owned the house had the same last name as the street we lived on! A town historical property..and she was one of the last descendents.
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Salem, Marblehead, Lexington and Concord are even more anal about historic houses than Boston is.
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Salem, Marblehead, Lexington and Concord are even more anal about historic houses than Boston is.
+1 Considering the history of Concord, Lexington and Boston, some of it's understandable and a good bit of it is just ridiculous...but, you have a choice and if you're not willing to play their game, don't buy the property!
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Just to give you a idea about how bad it is here. A few years back I raised hand rail about 3 inchs. RHIP(rental housing inspection program) dinged it for not being to comm'l code(42 instead od 38) now this was on a fire escape stair on the back of a building that was a "supporting structure" to a building that is on the rolls 6 blocks away. It took me 17 trips to the building department to get a permit (at $150 each, it normally takes me 1 trip, unless I am trying to do something really nonconforiming) I had to deal with the building departmen, the preservation district and RHIP. I could make 2 of the 3 happy. the stairs were not built to modern code and could not be. They would either have to end up in the alley or have to be built over the house next door. That being said there was nothing worng with them per ca code, it was rhip deal. really long story short, total invoice of 19k and change about $2500 in parts and labor for the stair. The rest was all bs