The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: USSA-1 on October 11, 2007, 08:00:41 AM
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For Warhawke...
Time to offer up you choice for a real battle rifle. No 223's, 6.5's, or 6.8's. 30 cal. minimum.
For me, it's a difficult choice between the M1A and the FAL. I've had both and I like both, but in the end, it would probably be a FAL (18" Congo model.) Handling and ergonomics win out for me. Optics can replace to poor sights on the FAL. The trigger?....well that's another story.
What say you and why?
Erik
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I really like my FAL. My main complaint is that I am still working on not flexing the barrel, at least too much, when shooting prone at those long distances. Wrecks the hitting the target portion of the equasion. Yes, I have hunted with it, and it has taken game. :) The sights do leave something to be desired, but they do work. This year I took on one of the Appleseed shoots to get better, and in the end figured out that maybe the FAL is not the rifle for me. So, I am out shopping for a new weapon. My wife a month ago bought me an AR-10 to try out (Anniversary present), based on her bugging some friends and what they use. So far I like it, but I know it is low on the list for a lot of people. No comments needed, I am still testing it. It looks promising, and it is nice to have the same manual at arms as my other AR's. Of course those $50 mags... ouch!! Maybe I should try a COBB next... .308 and G3 mags... hmmm..
Erik, you can fix that FAL trigger. Get the TPR kit from Falcon Industries, smooth up the contact faces, and it doesn't come out too darn bad. It does make a world of difference. I have sold a number of others on this kit, and I have not run into an unsatisfied person yet.
Also, depending on which model you have, I highly recommend you get the L1A1 style safety if you have a STG-58 model. These can be had from DSA and make a big difference to that area as well.
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Has to be a 762x39 varient , and Im not even choosy about which 1 AKS, AK47, AK74 etc.
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Has to be a 762x39 varient , and Im not even choosy about which 1 AKS, AK47, AK74 etc.
they are heardy guns and a nice shoot but are they really a prime choice for a awsome battle rifle hummmm i am a huge fan of ak and i like the style but id like summin like ar-50 ;D primo choice 1 shot 1 kill
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Springfield M1A
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It would depend;
In a survivalist situation, where I and my family and friends were surviving after TSHTF and our concern was the occasional groups of looters;
M-1 'Tanker' Garand in 7.62 NATO w/ Flash suppressor
This is a handy reliable weapon with excellent iron sights. It provides modest firepower with minimal training, and surprisingly high firepower in the hands of an expert. One of the best features for a survivalist is the 8 shot en-block clips which can be kept loaded indefinitely without damage and which are far less susceptible to damage in use. Anyone who has bought surplus magazines knows to check the floorplate for damage from the previous user banging it on the ground going into the prone. I'd go for the 7.62 as opposed to the 30-06 because it is better suited for the shorter barrel, and it is more available now, still being a military issue round.
In a military situation, where I and my friends are fighting ravening hordes of invading whoever's;
Modified FN-FAL, with A2 Hampton rear sight ( http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=US061A2H ), 18" barrel, Styer flash suppressor, L1-A1 magazine release and safety, forward assist cocking handle, sand-cut bolt carrier and scope mount top cover. I would also add the stripper-clip top cover ( http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=620ASCM ) if I expected to operate without support for long periods.
I would also like to see a comparison of the Paratrooper bolt and the standard "Rat-tail" bolt for reliability. The Para bolt should, in theory, be more reliable as the rat-tail running down the stock is a probable point-failure source if it gets filled with dirt and debris, although the Para bolt-carrier is lighter and might therefore be slightly more susceptible to D&D in the action. Either way I would like the full stock, folders tend to loosen with use and are more likely to be damaged if you go around busting people in the chops with them. A bayonet lug would be mighty nice too, I would like to mount an Extrema Ratio bayonet ( http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/inglese/military/fulcrum_bayonet.htm ), what can I say, I'm old fashioned.
While the M-14 is more accurate and somewhat lighter and the H&K-91 is a bit more reliable under harsh conditions (a PTR-91 with a CETME trigger group and a Brugger & Thomat low-mount optic rail would be my #2 choice), the FN is easier to repair then the former and more user friendly than the latter. The Hampton lower gives you an M-16A2 rear sight, which will go a long way towards improving accuracy with iron sights. The forward assist cocking handle is a nice bit of insurance against failures to close. The L1-A1 mag release and safety are quicker than the metric versions. While the sand-cut bolt carrier significantly improves reliability in sandy and dusty conditions. I want a scope-mount top cover, not so much for the optic, but because they are far harder to damage. I tend to shy away from optics because, even though newer units designed for combat, like the Elcan, are very robust, they are still more easily damaged than well designed iron sights. I would probably mount an ACOG or Elcan if I had the chance but personally I can't afford one and I'm to cheap to pay the cost of 4 cases of 7.62 or a good mid-range 1911 for a scope.
In a combat environment the higher firepower afforded by the 20 round magazine of the FN can be critical. Infantry wants to close with the enemy in order to avoid heavy weapons. Therefore you want to be able to get the maximum number of rounds downrange quickly and the 8 count "Feed Me bell" of the M-1 becomes a liability. At longer range you want to shoot and scoot before it starts raining steel. Either way you don't want to have to worry as much about getting your weapon reloaded on the fly. If I were operating without support I would include the stripper-clip top cover as FN magazines are fairly heavy and it makes more sense to carry 7 magazines and a few hundred rounds on strippers than to hump an extra 3 or 4 pounds of steel, after all one pound in the morning is ten pounds by nightfall. If, on the other hand, I was operating from a vehicle or base-camp I would simply carry more magazines and reduce the weight I carry in other areas.
To Bidah, the problem with the FN is not usually "Barrel Flexing" but the play between the upper and lower receivers, especially using the iron sights as the rear is on the lower receiver and the front is attached to the upper (this is why you shouldn't use a "Hasty Sling" on an FN either). I've gotten better results by simply putting my weak hand at the toe of the butt-stock and thus reducing the pressure on the receivers. You can also shim the lower to provide maximum tension against the frame locking lever, but this will cause higher wear on the lever.
Lastly, If I were to find myself in a place where the 7.62 NATO was not abundant I would go with a Romanian PSL or Yugoslavian M-76 sniper rifle in 7.62x54r. These are NOT SVD's, though they do look like it. They are enlarged AK's that use SVD magazines and fire the '54r round. They, like the SVD, would not even count as sniper rifles in the west, but rather as Designated Marksman Rifles. I would replace the muzzle-break on the PSL with a flash suppressor (as the M-76 has already) and I would have a butt-load of magazines (unfortunately no one makes a 20 round mag) and I would try to get a 4x scope, but otherwise I would leave it as is and concentrate on getting good ammo and practicing with it.
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My vote is for the M1A due to its excellent sights and trigger.
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To Bidah, the problem with the FN is not usually "Barrel Flexing" but the play between the upper and lower receivers, especially using the iron sights as the rear is on the lower receiver and the front is attached to the upper (this is why you shouldn't use a "Hasty Sling" on an FN either). I've gotten better results by simply putting my weak hand at the toe of the butt-stock and thus reducing the pressure on the receivers. You can also shim the lower to provide maximum tension against the frame locking lever, but this will cause higher wear on the lever.
Thanks Warhawke. That was something that I knew, but did not equate with my issue of flexing.. That is like turning on a beacon.. sheesh, why did I not think of that... dang it... hmmm.. now what do I tell the wife... hmm.. :) So really, to overall fix my problem I would need to move the sight to the top cover, which would mean going to an optic.
-Bidah
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A scope will help, but mostly you need to adjust your shooting style to reduce the tendency to shift the receivers apart. Just get prone, lightly grip the pistolgrip, place your face lightly in your stock weld and grasp the toe of the stock with your weak hand (either in front of the sling swivel or behind it, whichever is better for you). Too many people bear down on the weapon like it's going to escape, you don't need to, let the bipod take the weight and the recoil, unless it's some lightweight POS aftermarket, in that case get a real bipod like the STG-58 unit. DSA has the STG bipod for $50 bucks.
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=624
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The M1a is my favorite, Excellent sight picture and excellent adjustments that do not need tools, even bullets to make those adjustments. Trigger is completely usable. ( I had an m25 whitefeather with the Rader trigger at 1.5lbs, wow!!! but no more) Excellent accuracy, excellent reliability. Built as an improvement on the M1 I think it accomplished it's task. Excellent stock design, it points like a good shotgun with the standard military stock, gentle recoil, I've shot mine in a tee shirt many times.
Positive features.
1) Excellent sights, repeatable, hand adjustable for windage and elevation past 1,000 meters.
2) 20 round capable as issued.
3) stripper clip feedable as it comes from the factory.
4) Reliable with military ammo, in the jungle, desert or arctic environment.
5) points very well.
6) with a 200 yard zero, no practicle holdover is required up close.
7) accurate to 600 meters as issued with military ammo. 2 minutes of angle or better.
8) low recoil.
9) 2 stage trigger is repeatable and dependable, pretty darn good as it comes from the factory.
10) meant to be used with a sling, carried and fired, with no shift of zero.
11) bayonet and butt stroke capable.
12) as any good military rifle, you can break it down into it's components for detailed cleaning without tools.
13) elegant is not a mechanical feature but I think they look that way.
Negatives.
1) It's heavy.
2) unless you pay big bucks, optictal mounting is iffy at best ( I'll address this again later ).
3) a little long for my taste in close encounters, but shorter ones are available.
Now I have an m1a scout config. l liked it the way it came with an aimpoint comp m2 and fiberglass stock, but I purchase the Troy industries modular chassi, to convert it to an AR type platform with full length 1913 rail on top, and rails at 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. The stock is technically lighter, but it changes the balance dramatically, I have not shot it yet and will with hold comment until I do so. Scope or any optic mounting problems are solved, and the magwell is bigger. I've got a collapsible car15 stock on it now, but if it performs well, will go with and ace SOPMOD 4 OR 5 STOCK. Looks cool, but race paint don't make a race car.
There are many M1a's, BUT THIS ONES MINE, HER NAME IS MYRNA.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after my mother.
Like my Mother, she has NEVER let me down, For any of you who shoot US service rifle, I got my first leg points with this rifle, I shot a 464 out of 500 with issue match ammo and no sighter shots. The course of fire was out to 600 yards. At the 200 yard standing course, I can't remember my total score, but out of 20 shots, the last 12 were 10's and x's. With this rifle I truly believe, If I can see it, I can hit it.!!!
Sorry for the long post, Elvis has left the building.
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Now I have an m1a scout config.
Would you post a picture?
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I'll vote for the FAL. I have both a full size StG58A and a Para in addition to a Loaded M1A and a PTR91...here's why I like the Para:
- The FAL is the most ergonomic battle rifle I've ever used. All the controls are right were they should be and are crisp in operation. The rifle "comes right up" and I don't feel like I need to contort to wrap around it.
- Dang, but this thing is handy. While it isn't really much shorter than other full size rifles I have, the weight distribution is all in the center making it FEEL more compact
- The trigger is the nicest I've ever seen on a FAL. Fairly light, crisp let off. There is a fair amount of travel and creep in the first stage...overall much better than I expected. It is as crisp in letoff as the NM trigger on my M1A
- The Extreme Duty scope mount is very nice...good build, clear T markings...a high quality piece and seems rock solid
- The folding stock is solid and comfortable. Good cheekweld...doesn't give anything up to a solid stock.
- FALs rock!
(http://i12.tinypic.com/6c5uz52.jpg)
(http://i16.tinypic.com/6gl6hs7.jpg)
(http://i8.tinypic.com/4vfizuu.jpg)
(http://i12.tinypic.com/4zsw0w2.jpg)
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If you can only have one rifle, a .308 is probably the best all-around choice. However, if you are worried about home defense right now, rather than just in case of TEOTWAWKI, a .223 rifle is very appealing. If funds allow, it might be useful to get a rifle in each caliber. To avoid the need to learn two completely different rifles, the best
option may be to purchase the same design in both calibers. Several weapon systems [allowing commonality of training] are available for both rounds, including the AR-10/AR-15 and the HK91/HK93.
Most of the technical information given above comes from www.ammo-oracle.com. For those who are interested in the subject, this site has an extremely thorough discussion of the ballistics and
wounding potential of the .223 round.
I would have to agree on the 5.56 ammo. If you are shooting either the m193 55gr. or the SS109 62gr. as long as the bullet velocity is maintained above 2700fps then there is dramatic fragmentation. This is due to the military cannelure, when the bullet enters flesh it starts to yaw (tumble) once the bullet reaches 90 degrees the jacket comes apart causing massive wound injuries. This is only true of military style ammo, not plinking ammo or wolf. I feel that the 5.56 is more effective then 308 at 200 yards or less, but after 200 yards I would only recommend the 308. I do not expect you to believe just me so go to www.ammo-oracle.com or there is a link on www.ar-15.com also. Another thing we must all take into consideration that the supply of surplus 308 is getting scarce and no major military is using it in mass quantities (that I am aware of) 5.56 is here to stay for a while and is readily available. In the event of a NATO or military invasion of US soil it is what the troops will be carrying so it would be nice to know that the enemies ammo can be used in our guns. Just a little food for thought. You also have to consider the surplus of 762x39 ammo, IMHO the 5.56 is stuck in the middle of the .308 and the 762X39.
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The problem with surplus ammo is two-fold
1) New UN agreements have caused most countries to destroy old ammo stock to prevent them from falling into the hands of "Unapproved users" (meaning civilians), the few countries that refuse to follow these agreements are mostly com-bloc, meaning no 7.62 NATO
2) New ammo in the US is "Green" which means tungsten and other alloys, which is non-sporting ammo and therefore banned under the AP ammo ban.
add to that the Klinton era regulations that require US surplus ammo have the powder replaced before it can be sold. The bottom line is that ALL military surplus ammunition is about to dry up completely. I'm telling everyone to stock up on ammo now, $450 a case for 7.62 NATO is going to seem cheap soon.
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I'm telling everyone to stock up on ammo now, $450 a case for 7.62 NATO is going to seem cheap soon.
Klintoons - the gift that keeps on giving - just like syphillis.
.308 at $450/case - I'd love to get some, but where do find any decent ammo. I've seen precious little of the Indian crap, and while I have my Hirtenberger (5 battle packs ;D BTW ) and scads of S. African, I am loathe to shoot it, rainy day and all that. I use mainly Wolf for knocking around.
Anyone know where there is decent .308 still avail by the case, even at $450?
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I have about 5000 rounds of Port and SA 308...wish I'd bought 10K rounds when you could pick up Port at $120/case. This is supplemented by about 5000 rounds of surplus 308 components.
Sometimes I think about selling my stocks and buying a lot more components. I could most likely turn those 5K of loaded rounds into about 12K of components. Then again, surplus pulled 308 is getting pretty scarce too.
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Ammo man 189 per 500 .308 free shipping , cheapest Ive seen Wolf
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You know, this is a great thread! Thanks, guys,
I want to get a "grown up" battle rifle, but I can't make up my mind between the FN-FAL and the M1A Scout/SOCOM. I have a lot more rounds through the SOCOM than various FALs, but I keep leaning toward the FAL for its ergonomics...specifically looking at the DS Arms SA58 guns. Any thoughts on those models???
How would you guys stack theFN-FAL against the current crop of AR style guns in 7.62/.308, specifically the DPMS rifles? I confess that i haven't shot any of the new DPMS rifles and probably won't be able to until around Thanksgiving, when I finish up filming SHOOTING GALLERY for Q1 2008.
I'm pretty much resigned to optics...a year's bout with shingles in my right eye has done a number on my vision (I'm very right eye dominant). It has stabilized, but I doubt I'm going to be doing any more long distance shooting with iron sights. The last carbine course I took I was using a current military 1X Aimpoint — I've used Aimpoints since the skinny tube first gens back in the '80s — and I was fine until we moved from the 50 yard line to the 100, where things started fuzzing out. I went to the 3X magnifier and the groups came back to normal.
Thanks for the recommendations!
Michael B
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In the 1960's the Army stopped using ball powders in 5.56 because is clogged the gas systems in the AR's, so why build an AR in a caliber where the cheapest ammo is likely to contain it? Not to mention all the other issues with the AR.
As for the M-14 vs. the FAL, if you need optics anyway I would go for the FN. The primary advantage of the M-14 rifle is it's slightly lower weight and the better iron sights than the FN. I think the FN I describe, with the full optic top-cover would be excellent for you, though you might want the 16" barrel if size is a problem for you. I think the 18" barrel is a better compromise between size and efficiency myself, but your mileage may vary.
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These guys have about the best price on 7.62 NATO that ain't Wolf
http://www.ammo4guns.com/RIFLE_AMMO.html
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I have to say Im looking hard at going to a 762X54 rifle, ammo is real cheap and the round is very close to the .308, some pretty good systems to use it in also.
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How would you guys stack theFN-FAL against the current crop of AR style guns in 7.62/.308, specifically the DPMS rifles? I confess that i haven't shot any of the new DPMS rifles and probably won't be able to until around Thanksgiving, when I finish up filming SHOOTING GALLERY for Q1 2008.
Hi Michael
First -- love your blog and podcasts...I don't get the Outdoor Channel which makes me sad.
Next -- I highly recommend the SA58. As I've been blathering on in this thread, I think it is the finest "big boy" combat rifle out there.
- * I love my M1A but the SOCOMs I've played with are horribly unbalanced IMO. They just don't feel right with all that weight out front. That said, the muzzle brake on them is supposed to be something to behold when it comes to controlability
- I think the FAL has it all over the M1A when it comes to ergonomics...they are much more like an AR...all the controls are where they're supposed to be for a righty. THe M1A hs "older" generation ergos
- Most of my experience in ARs is with the 5.56 guns. My only expereiences with AR10s is a full sized Armalite...jammo-matic so that soured me abit but shouldn't be damning for all 308 ARs
Finally, I'd be happy to "donate" my crop of 308 battle rifles for you to do a side-by-side comparison...of course, you'd have to let me help :o
(http://i8.tinypic.com/54l0fo0.jpg)
(http://i19.tinypic.com/680xppe.jpg)
(http://i8.tinypic.com/4q3u5ap.jpg)
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Kilopaparomeo I think I'm in love with your Rifle collection!!!!!!! ;D :P ;D I think I might have to take another look at the FN FAL's.
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I have to say Im looking hard at going to a 762X54 rifle, ammo is real cheap and the round is very close to the .308
I shot my son's Mosin Nagant 91/30 a few days ago. Not too bad for a rifle produced in 1944. He replaced the wood with synthetic. Needs a scope, but the iron sights were not bad. 7.62x54R cartridge.
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Kilopaparomeo I think I'm in love with your Rifle collection!!!!!!! ;D :P ;D I think I might have to take another look at the FN FAL's.
I might as well post the rest of them...all equally as bad pictures
Here are my "Cold War" main battle rifles
(http://i8.tinypic.com/54l0fo0.jpg)
...and the "Post Cold War" intermediate caliber rifles
(http://i8.tinypic.com/4q3u5ap.jpg)
Now the WWII Allies collection
(http://i3.tinypic.com/6g1wf0y.jpg)
German, Japanese, Swiss, French, Finnish and Swedish military bolties
(http://i11.tinypic.com/6evhttv.jpg)
"Sporting" rifles
(http://i15.tinypic.com/4zehpmq.jpg)
...and the "whoops, I forgot to get these in" rifles
(http://i4.tinypic.com/4kmhqn4.jpg)
And finally, not yet mine, but will be when it ships in November...a BOHICA .50 BMG upper on an AR lower
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/Bohica50BMGACE.jpg)
Legend:
Picture #1
- PTR-91
- CETME
- DSA Para SA58 FAL
- DSA StG58A FAL
- Springfield M1A Loaded
- Egyptian FN-49
Picture #2
- WASR-10 AKM
- White Oak Armament DCM AR
- DPMS M4-gery
- Oly Arms 9mm AR
Picture #3
- Springfield Armory 2.5M M1 Garand
- Springfield Armory 19xxx M1 Garand
- Inland M1 Carbine
- Remington 03A3
- Savage No4 Mk1* Lee-Enfield
- Long Branch No4 Mk1/2 Lee-Enfield
- Mosin Nagant M38
- Mosin Nagant 91/30
- Mosin Nagant M44
Picture #4
- S/42 Mauser 98K
- byd Mauser 98K
- Yugo M24/47
- Type 99 Arisaka
- Swiss K31 Beech
- Swiss K31 Walnut
- French MAS 36
- Manlicher-Berthier M92/16
- Finn M39 Saka
- Swede M96 1900 Oberndorf
- Swede M96 1903 Gustav
Picture #5
- Bubba'd Israeli 98K
- Tikka T3, .300 WSM
- "Billy Dixon" Sharps 1874, .45-70
- Rossi Win 92, .45 Colt
- Henry lever action, .22 LR
- Charles Daly Zavasta Superior II, 22 LR
- Mossberg 46m(a), .22 LR
- Remington 512-T, .22 LR
- Savage Cub, .22 LR
Picture #6
- Gamo Shadow, .177 pellet
- Yugo 59/66 SKS
- Krag M96 in middle of restoration
- Eddystone P17, .30-06
- Spanish FR-8, La Corona
- Springfield 1873 Trapdoor
- Robinson 1863 .58 cal contract rifle
- Ishapore 2A
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Interesting thread. First post here and wish to offer a clear choice for me in a battle rifle. M1 Garand. Some may groan, but I can use the sights, find it to be robust and dependible, accurate and fast loading.....and the biggest reason....it is my only battle rifle, I know it and have confidence in it.
Would I choose a FAL or M1a if I had one, probably, hard to argue against a magazine.
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http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/22207-1/FAL1306.jpg
(http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/22207-1/FAL1306.jpg)
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(http://i17.tinypic.com/505e7bk.jpg)
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This is for Don Worsham who wanted some pics of the M1a scout configuration on the Troy modular chassi, aimpoint comp m2 and Troy backup sights. Also my Standard grade for comparison. And the battle rifle not talked about My M40A3.(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1328.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1330.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1335.jpg)
Thanks to you guys, HAZMAT, WALTER45 AND DON FOR HELPING WITH THE PICS!!!!!
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GREAT PIC'S ENVY
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The cool thing about my books is you can use them as TARGETS!
Am filled with gun envy!!!!
Michael B
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DS Arms can whip up any configuration FAL you want. My choice will be a shorty with dust-cover rail for optics, the extended safety and extended mag-release, folding stock (for shorter LOP), sand-cut bolt, non-folding op-handle, and an EOTech AA-battery sight. A Krebs AK with a dot sight would probably cost about the same and do just as well at CQB distance - and might be more reliable and robust.
I've owned and used a classic Garand and an M-1A Scout, and I really like them. Great triggers! A Garand with a bayonet is a serious CQB tool (same size and weight as a Roman Pilum) - if your eyes are still young enough to use the iron sights. No pistol-gripped rifle handles as well for pugil-stick/bayonet work. But I have issues resolving their safety-manipulation with all the trigger-time I've invested on AR systems. Too easy to mistake the trigger for the safety, with your eyes on the target and under stress.
The current AR-10 isn't proven yet as an MBR. They're reverse-engineered from the AR-15, and not everything works exactly the same when you "supersize" it. I think it'll be a while before all the bugs are worked out of the models commonly available.
If I was considering an AR-10 as a precision rifle, I'd get the one from G.A. Precision. They're my pick for any precision rifle. See: http://www.gaprecision.net/content/ar10.php
-KBS
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Soldiers Want a Bigger Bang
Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons, though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.
Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.
"Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more stopping power/lethality," the report said.
The study was commissioned by the Army's Project Manager for Soldier Weapons to address concerns raised by Soldiers returning from combat about the dependability and effectiveness of their small arms.
Download the entire CNA report here (2MB pdf).
"This study assessed Soldier perspectives on the reliability and durability of their weapons systems in combat to aid in decisions regarding current and future small arms needs of the Army," said the study, which was obtained by Military.com.
CNA surveyors conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty, asking them a variety of questions about accessories, weapons training, maintenance and recommended changes to their small arms.
"The U.S. Army Infantry Center is conducting a study to refine the Army's Small Arms Strategy, which focuses on the employment of rifles, carbines, ammunition caliber, and future technologies," said Army spokesman, Lt. Col. William Wiggins, in a statement. "All Services are participating in this study, which is expected in the July/August 2007 timeframe."
The survey lends weight to Army claims that current-issued weapons are effective despite growing criticism from Soldiers and lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the service should re-assess the standard M4 - as well as the M9 pistol.
In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) sent a letter to acting Army secretary Pete Geren taking issue with the service's sole-source contract to buy about 500,000 M4 carbines despite evidence that new rifle technologies could provide more reliable weapons.
The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight.
Though vocal critics of the M4 say it's prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat.
But of those with malfunctioning M4s, nearly 20 percent said they were "unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage," the report said.
Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."
"Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached."
The CNA surveyors also asked Soldiers for their opinions on possible improvements to their small arms. The top request from Soldiers was for more knock-down power, reigniting the debate over America's small arms caliber choices.
"When speaking to experts and Soldiers on site, many commented on the limited ability to effectively stop targets, saying that those personnel targets who were shot multiple times were still able to continue pursuit," the report said.
A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and "some were more specific and requested a return to the Colt .45 for standard issue pistols," including others who asked for hollow-point ammo.
Hollow point rounds have been deemed illegal for military use.
Additionally, M16 users were "consistent and adamant" in asking to be re-issued the more compact M4.
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OK...I know the FN FAL is great and I've kicked around the idea of getting the M14 (which I eventually plan to get) and settled on the AR-10 (or an SR-25). It seems easier for me to handle than the M14...especially with a few inches of can hanging off the end. So why do ya'll not prefer an AR-10 or SR-25??? I'm wondering what the "poison pill" is for the gun that is not your favorite.
Also...I thought that Stoner made the AR-10 first...then followed up with the AR-15 and M-16?
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The two AR10s I've handled have both been unreliable. Lots of FTF.
I'm "sure" they have that all worked out now....but in the mean time, I like the FAL. Lots of history, lots of variations, **almost** as good ergonomics as an AR, lots of aftermarket parts...and it is just plain old cool.
Here's a quote I made up...I might send it to Hallmark and see if they'll make a greeting card out of it
"Having an FAL means never having to explain your AR-10 isn't really a poodleshooter...no really...it isn't an AR15...really"
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OK...I know the FN FAL is great and I've kicked around the idea of getting the M14 (which I eventually plan to get) and settled on the AR-10 (or an SR-25). It seems easier for me to handle than the M14...especially with a few inches of can hanging off the end. So why do ya'll not prefer an AR-10 or SR-25??? I'm wondering what the "poison pill" is for the gun that is not your favorite.
Also...I thought that Stoner made the AR-10 first...then followed up with the AR-15 and M-16?
Yes, the AR-10 was first, and the M-16 is a down sized version of that. They then took the improvements that have been made over the years and upsized it back to the AR-10. Make sense.. :) Now, I have had my AR-10 for a little over a month. It has not made my "approved list" yet, but I have fired up to 100 rounds without a cleaning and it worked fine, zero trouble. When I get to 500 rounds in one day with no trouble I will be happier, I just have not tried it yet.
I suppose that for the most part I don't like the M1A. My main reason is that I have known personally 6 people that have them, and have had nothing but trouble. These are all the newer ones. It seems so far the only sure fix is to send it to Fulton and for a nice sum it can be fixed... I know this is counter and heresay to the M1A folks, but hey, it is my opinion.. :)
I do really well with the HK91 series, I just don't own one, yet..
-Bidah
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Thanks Bidah and Kilopaparomeo. I had heard of some early problems with the AR-10's built in the last few years so it's good to know that, at least in Bidah's instance, the newer one is not giving problems right now. Bidah, I'd appreciate a heads up when you get a few hundred rounds through it...I'm not buying one until '08 (Christmas and a trip to Disney is gonna flatten the wallet for now). Poodleshooter, ha! I like that...but I was planning on putting nightvision on the AR-10 (or whatever I get) for a nightime backup to my yote slayers Rem 700 (308) and CZ 550 (22-250)...guess whatever I get may end up being a "poodleshooter" anyway.
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I was just joshin' ya. I wouldn't mind owning an AR10 at some point.
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Rastus,
Wander on over the 6.5G vs. 6.8SPC thread. Maybe that would work for you. :)
-Bidah
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I am getting a DPMS AP4 in 308 next payday. My husband was happy with an AR15 but I want more. I had been looking at a RRA AR8 but I don't know when they'll get around to actually manufacturing them anytime soon. I also had a concern for reliability, it might have bugs to work out since it is so new.
MacDooley
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I have two DPMS .308's, an AP4 and a SASS (which I have not fired as of yet). My initial impressions (other than it being an oversized M4) was the weapon is very robust and well made, with an extremely tight fit on all parts.
Obviously, this might be a detriment in dirty, dusty, frozen "non-range" scenarios.
After breaking in the barrel I put another 100 rounds through it, and was amazed at one 3 shot 1.5 inch 100 yard group with South African Battle Pack .308 through a hot barrel (IMHO this is a sub MOA shooter with the right ammo). Also no malfunctions. No big deal, again-this is a range environment.
I have been unable to really put it through the paces of a carbine school to really see what it's got under heavy shooting conditions, but feel it would do as well as any other .223/5.56 variant out there. I also really like the FAL, despite not being personally fond of the ergos. M14 same thing.
Any one here really beat the snot out of a DPMS .308...? ???
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I'd go with a AR-10. Familuar with the system and love the .308, just wish it was cheaper. Really like my M1A but it's just too classy for a fighting rifle. That said I'll never give up my M1 Garands - now that is a rifle.
Bill
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The accuracy thing between the AR-10 and FAL has sold me. For what I'm using it for (no zombie armies out here in Oklahoma....yet) I appreciate the accuracy provided by the AR-10 (wish I could afford an SR-25) and...since I clean after each use and usually keep each use to less than 200 rounds (on my AR's anyway)...reliability should not be an issue for my use.
Thanks for the info.
Also...I'm still stuck on that poodle shooter thing....I like the looks my friends give me when I mention that.
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Easy question. A box stock Valmet M62 7.62x39. Best AK variant ever made :-*
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DPMS's 308 is also very interesting. I have not got one yet, but it is on my short list. A buddy had one and was having trouble making up his mind on a scope so I offered to put a couple of my scopes on this rifle for him to see/shoot. I was dialing in the scope at 50 yards and had one hit about center of the X ring. Shot another round to confirm zero and it went right thru the same dang hole. No bull, shooting Wolf steel case ammo. I like FAL's, M1's, Springfields, and al the rese, but none of them is as accurate as the DPMS LR308 I had the pleasure of shooting.
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I have a slightly modified DPMS 308 that I use for competition. It had a tight chamber and the gas system needed some adjustment after I cut and recrowned the barrel, but it now runs very well.
I beat on it pretty hard during practice and it's held up pretty well. I've got a little over 3,000 rounds through it and it's still quite accurate with no major problems ( I had to replace the extractor spring after 2,500 rds.)
Erik
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Should the SHTF and any of you ever need to shoot me, please use a .223.
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Should the SHTF and any of you ever need to shoot me, please use a .223.
Nice try pal, but if I need to shoot you I want you to fall down and not bother me anymore. I doubt I would need to do so for a nice guy like you.
As for the AR-10 copies, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the 5.56 is bad enough in a weapon that sh**'s where it eats, 7.62 NATO is going to be an even bigger problem. Heck, if the HK/CETME?PTR weapons had a last-round bolt hold you wound never pry it away from me. So I run with the FN right now, which is the best of the MBR's for SHTF work.
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My vote is for the B.A.R. There is just something about the sound that makes me feel warm and safe :o
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SE Asia ruined my confidence in staking all my cookies on anything AR, regardless of calibre. I know they say that most of the problems have been "solved" or whatever, but I still just can't seem to take them seriously. Just are not in the same class as an AK, FAL, M1, M14, and I suppose SIG, & HK battle rifles. In 0 to 600 yard terrain, a good AK would be hard to beat. If talking mountains or desert give me a FAL, M14, or M1 in that order.
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SE Asia ruined my confidence in staking all my cookies on anything AR, regardless of calibre. I know they say that most of the problems have been "solved" or whatever, but I still just can't seem to take them seriously. Just are not in the same class as an AK, FAL, M1, M14, and I suppose SIG, & HK battle rifles. In 0 to 600 yard terrain, a good AK would be hard to beat. If talking mountains or desert give me a FAL, M14, or M1 in that order.
I know how you feel. Those of us that had them early will NEVER trust them.
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In 0 to 600 yard terrain, a good AK would be hard to beat.
That might be a stretch for an AK. The AK design was based on a massed firepower warfare doctrine. Simple, rugged, easy to produce. It was never designed for precision on any level.
The 7.62x39 cartridge was designed around the lessons the Soviets learned during urban warfare during WWII. Most infantry engagements occurred within a 300 meter window. The 7.62x39 was designed as a 300 meter round. Plenty of power and accuracy in a compact design.
If you're talking about the AK-47 and you reduce your distance to 300 yards, then I'm with you...to a degree.
You can extend that envelope to 500 meters with the 5.45x39 round, but you're still at the mercy of the original design. I've used an AK-74 on 500 meter, military ranges and had some good success, but after every 500 meter shot I always "hoped" for a hit. With the AR, I "knew" as soon as I called my shot whether or not I hit the target.
The AK is an outstanding design, but it needs a major overhaul.
Erik
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My main Battle Rifle... combat proven ...long range or CQB... and can be used as a club or spear if ya run out of ammo
Springfield M1 Garand...dated November 1944...30.06
" The greatest battle implement ever devised "
General George S. Patton
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My main Battle Rifle... combat proven ...long range or CQB... and can be used as a club or spear if ya run out of ammo
Springfield M1 Garand...dated November 1944...30.06
" The greatest battle implement ever devised "
General George S. Patton
A man after my own heart!
but not in a Navy sort of way
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M1A - with the VLTOR tele-stock and SOCOM barrel/flash hider. I have a Pentax 1.5-5X scope on mine, but I am thinking of maybe a Leupold MR/T (since I use the CQ/T on my M4 to great effect). ;D
I love H&K for their MP5, but not the G3/HK91. And I am not a fan of most FN products (except the GP35), including the FAL. Their newest plastic toy is awful (although I admit to only handling it in the shop and not shooting it - the magazine stuck, the ergonomics were awful, and the sights were cheap). Likewise, I haven't had the pleasure of shooting the Galil ARM in 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester), but I think I might even prefer that over my M1A, if it's as impressive as it's smaller-caliber brethren. Unfortunately, it's outlawed here in CT, but if I move to a more gun-friendly state (looking at Utah right now) I might pick one up. :o
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My new to me FN FAL new to FAL I am still leaarning, but I do like this rifle. ;D After a bunch of reaserch it is a inch pattern Aussie built in 68,so maybe in country at the same time I was,I took it out shooting today and what weapon . ;D Doug
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/canon6/DSCF0223.jpg)
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OK...it's been a year. FAL in hand (no rounds downrange yet) and AR-10 on backorder. This was a great thread.
Has the experience of a year changed any minds or provided new tips and tricks?
OK...silly question, I'm sure no minds were changed.... :)
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Change my mind, no, but my situation has changed. I had to sell all my firearms but one (kept the FR-8 in 7.62 NATO). Now, hopefully (HOPEFULLY) I will be getting the cash soon to replace my main weapons soon. I plan to get a PSL in 7.62x54r for my main weapon and an AK-47 for the wife. The PSL is not a battle rifle but I don't plan on getting into too many battles. It is however very reliable and about as accurate as I can shoot it out to 600 meters and I don't think it's too shabby out to 1000, I ought to hit the guy at least once out of 10 rounds.
The two deciding factors for me are;
1) I can get the ammo relatively cheap, heck even the commercial stuff is slightly less than 7.62 NATO.
2) I can fix it and get the parts, at least those most likely to break like the FCG, firing pin, etc.
Getting parts for the H&K or FN is a lot bigger problem then it was just a few years ago and AR-10 parts, well let's just say I have not heard good things (just to add to the other problems with the AR's.
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Warhawke,
PSL? Deepwater has a Mosin in 7.62 x 54R, is the PSL similar?
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PSL is similar to the Dragonov (SVD) sniper rifle, I'm not sure but I think it's made in Romania. Several countries have sniper or DM rifles loosely based on the AK or RPK action
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The SVD is a purpose-built 'Sniper-Rifle' which bears a superficial resemblance to the AK, it's action is entirely different. The PSL is an RPK (heavier Squad Automatic Rifle version of the AK-47) which has been enlarged to fit the 7.62x54r and yes it is built in Romania. The Yugo M-76 is a better rifle with it's heavy milled receiver (it too is an RPK modification) but it is heavier and they are running $2000+ and it's in 7.92mm (8mm Mauser) which has gotten expensive too.
The SVD is somewhat more accurate but the PSL is a bit more reliable and a whole lot cheaper.
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If its got to be 30 up I am still going with the AR platform in .308 Winchester. An AR10 for me please!
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This old Marine grunt takes the M1 Garand. I've carried it in the desert, snow, beach landings, and jungles of Phillipines and Thailand. The Garand always works and you can touch the bad guy easily to 500 yds. Next will be the M1A. Hmm, maybe also the Springfield 1903A3, Marines of the 5th & 6th Marine Regiments used it very well in WWI up to 800 yds with iron sights.
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I'd take the AK. It's not great for anything long, but ammo and parts are everywhere all over the world. Also, this rifle can go through the poop with out a hiccup.
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This old Marine grunt takes the M1 Garand. I've carried it in the desert, snow, beach landings, and jungles of Phillipines and Thailand. The Garand always works and you can touch the bad guy easily to 500 yds. Next will be the M1A. Hmm, maybe also the Springfield 1903A3, Marines of the 5th & 6th Marine Regiments used it very well in WWI up to 800 yds with iron sights.
You would know about wouldn't you ;D Still got your "Poagee rope " ? ;D
Semper Fi , and Merry Christmas !
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I had to turn in my "pogee rope" but since I served with both 1/5 and 3/5 I might be entitled to get one. For the unlearned, the "pogee rope" which is the French Fourege (problably mispelled) which the French award the 5th 6th Marine Regiments afte the battles at Chateau Thierry and Bellau Wood during WWI. It is green with red tracers. The only addition a Marine can wear on his uniform other than rank, marksmanship, hash marks, scuba, flight or jump wings.
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I would have to pick the M1A if I could afford one. My dad used the M14 in Viet Nam and he has nothing bad to say about it. I wish I could buy my dad and myself an M1A. He has always wanted one but they are too pricey.
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I am going to try to order an M1a in the next month or so. Currently I own a Federal Arms H&K 91 copy in .308. It is not a bad rifle but I am going to enjoy the M1a more. Growing up all I ever heard about from a Vietnam Vet neighbor was how the Army made a mistake switching from the M14 to the M16. I have shot a few and have been very impressed by them.
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My favorite gun shop has some M1As on order. They have the match version, but it's a little pricey for my tastes.
I already have a Vepr chambered in .308, so I technically do have some decent semi-auto firepower, but I really like the M1A.
I'm debating something of the AK variety just because the ammo is cheaper.
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Poor soul, I am a rifleman, and do own and operate M1A's, M40's, and other precision rifles, but because I expect good results, I shoot the less expensive stuff too, I own some as well, the AK is effective to 500 meters as well as the SKS, but the sighting system makes a spotter a good thing to have, you cannot make precise sight adjustments, with either, only elevation, changes with a crude ladder, but with a spotter, can make 5 gallon bucket hits to 400 meters. Human dimensions to 500.
I had an HK91, and it was dependable and accurate, but the M1A's sighting system and trigger, made me trade it and I have never looked back.
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Definitely M1A.
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Definitely M1A.
I'll agree with that, all the things that made the Garand great with a detachable box magazine. Funny thing is, the Italians came out with it first, after WWII they were rearmed with surplus Garands which they converted to take a 20 round box Mag.
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I'll agree with that, all the things that made the Garand great with a detachable box magazine. Funny thing is, the Italians came out with it first, after WWII they were rearmed with surplus Garands which they converted to take a 20 round box Mag.
Any of those ever make it to the C&R market?
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Any of those ever make it to the C&R market?
Yes, the BM 59
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I'll have to see if there are any around. They sound interesting.
UPDATE
Just did a quick search and WOW are they pricey! ~3K!
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There were never a whole lot of them imported.
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Personally I like my Rock River LAR-8. .308 M4 flat top. It runs smooth with 0 FTF/FTE's . It is compact but has the full punch of any battle rifle. What's not to like.
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/jburgherr/Rifles/LAR-8-2.jpg)
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Anyone carried a battle riffle in a defensive position all day long. Day after day? Any military will confirm over 97% of all kills made with a battle rifle are made within 75 yards. Anyone that likes an M16 never defended their lives with one and watched their buddies getting killed all around them.
M1 - Total JOKE. Maybe worse than m16... Stripper clips! WAY to heavy, wood stock, did I mention HEAVY, LOW ammo capacity, can't top off magazine! LOW ammo capacity! (worth saying twice), Hopefully any future enemy I meet has one of these or an M16. They were great when the only other choice was a bolt action. They make a cute antique... Fun to play with at the range because their in old movies. Thats it.
M14 - Not all bad. Still heavy, still has wood stock, still difficult to clean in the field, accurate though, and good caliber. Still bad choice. Just a stupid M1 with a removeable magazine. Still. Not all bad.
G3/FAL - Makes a M1 or M14 feel like a feather! not real bad other than that. But try holding one on target for a prone, long range shot after carrying it all day. Bad triggers, expensive, hard to get quality parts for (watch out for dangerous, cheap knockoffs! (century arms) Prone to jamming or worse. Blowing up)
AK's - Super choice! Why do you think they've killed more people than any other battle rifle? Cheap, reliable as a Timex, a 2 year old can field strip it with their eyes closed. Triggers easy to mod to your liking, Nice gun! Spare parts everywhere, Spare ammo is very light and small to carry (we're talking hundereds of rounds you'll be lugging all day here!!!) A LITTLE weak in the long range department. Otherwise perfect.
SKS - Had to list it. It beats a bolt action. I might take an M16 over it though... Nah. Stripper clips STINK when you life depends on a quick reload and having more than 10 lousy rounds availble. Yugo models still WAY muzzle heavy. Fixed bayonet... Dumb!
AR10 - Not bad. Expensive, but how much is your life worth? Worse of all: Prone to stupid, gimmicky add on's (lights, electric sight, lasers, whatever other junk people want to show off with). Not terrible to fields strip, though does have A LOT of parts, and can fail in the field due to things most foot soldiers wont be able to figure out under pressure (gas ring alighnment). Larger, heavy ammo (ever carried a couple hundred rounds around with you!?!?!), VERY dirty to shoot due to gas being vented inside reciever. This means a lot of cleaning is needed, and it's mighty rare that you'll get to really, honestly clean the thing living in the field (my experience was the military gave you access to cleaning kits and the time to do it about once a month!)
"Ultimate"? I own all these weapons except the M1 (I'd consider owning one as a toy if it were mint WWII condition and free). What you need to ask youself is: If I had to flee my home tommarow and defend my life. What would I take???
Probably the AR10. Nah, make it the AK. Small light ammo goes a long way, it's NEVER jammed, shoots cleaner, weighs less, whats not to love??? Loaded with 123 grain max load rounds it'll reach out and touch your target nicely at 150 yards "just in case". While everybody else is dreaming of getting that nice, safe imaginary long range shot we see on TV with their higher powered rifles you can sneak up on them and...
Want to talk reality? Walk outside right now. Can you honestly see over 150 yards in ANY direction??? NOT! Where can you see that far? Few places come to mind right? Do you think an enemy is just going to sit there and let you sight in on him? So what good is it to say "I can hit a birds eye at 500 yards with my gun". You need a gun with stopping power "75 yards or less", full auto is for idiots that watched to much A-team! Three - four round bursts get the job done everytime. Think you can hold a 7.62X51 on target in full auto??? Put down that joint before you try!
Another BIG plus for 7.62X39? It's VERY likely what your enemy is going to be shooting at you with. Take him out and, Whalla! You've got more ammo for on his friends! (spare guns and parts even)
Anyone considered tactical shotguns? HEAVY ammo, but a single slug will do the job on anyone!
It's always smart to have options! ;)
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Both the vietnamese and our own government has stated that we "fired over 20,000 rounds for each vietnamese soldier we killed with small arms"... Full auto is only good for TV and playing with (yeah, I admit its REAL fun). Foot soldiers / battlefield rifles have no use for full auto. Each squad should have TWO guys with SAW's, M60's, something along those lines. The rest should be semi-auto.
If your on your own or in a small group using full auto your nothing but a REALLY good target. You MIGHT hit ONE guy before they kill you all!
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Badgersmilk;
I don't know where to start, but I'll Give it a try;
"It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog", I think a PTR or FN or M1A has a lot more fight in it than any AK or M-16.
AK's DO malfunction, not as often as others but it still does. In a recent tactical shooting class 90% of the AK's malfunctioned while the 3 or 4 M-4'geries had far fewer problems. Weird things happen and no weapon is guaranteed not to mess up, you just pay's your money and take's you chances. That being said, I would much rather bet my life on an AK, but would prefer a PTR-91 or FN. If your mileage varies that's cool but don't try to pontificate.
Most engagements do happen at under 200 meters and that range has been dropping, but the US is fighting in built up areas (mostly) right now and buildings do tend to cut the range further. As for no 150 yard shots, where do you live? When I was still in Detroit I could step out my front door and take 300+ yard shots, streets and highways tend to be open and long you know, as do parking lots. Here in Montana I could stretch the legs of a .50BMG, heck I could use most of the range of a 155mm around here.
You hate the M-16 but want the same gun in .308? It may be lighter than other 7.62 NATO guns but I would want something that works a bit more often.
Full auto is bad but 3 and 4 round bursts are good? and you expect to get those how? I think maybe the bong is in your court.
As for ammo, I would rather have 200rds of 7.62 NATO than 400rds of 5.56 or 7.62x39 because I might want to shoot through something solid and I want something that won't need a passel of rounds to convince the other guy to fall down and stop bothering me. How much ammo you carry is not the issue, how effective the rounds you carry are is more important. The weight of the weapon is likewise a matter of how much you get for the weight. I would rather hump a PTR-91 all day that carry an M-4 a block, cause if the stuff hits the rotary impeller I know that I can handle just about anything that a rifle can. Oh, and if you expect to run 3 round bursts you will need 600 rounds to match my 200, where were those weight savings again?
As for "Anyone considered tactical shotguns? HEAVY ammo, but a single slug will do the job on anyone!" You need to stop watching those movies, there are plenty of guys that slugs DIDN'T stop, or at least not right away. Shotguns are useful, but they are no more magic wands that anything else.
P.S. Millions of guys carried Main Battle Rifles all day long and they seemed to do alright. See most of the Twentieth Century as an example. Heck, a bunch of Brit's traded their SA-80's for FN L1A1's in Desert Storm, seems they preferred a rifle that worked, although the SA-80 don't weight a lot less than an FN anyway.
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It easy to say "use this for urban warfare" or "this for wilderness war", but it sounds like it comes down to "how do you plan on fighting". Are you the guy that would want to carry alot of ammo and have to fire and maneuver, or are you going to just try to shoot through a wall, or two. Are you going to try and work at a distance or get close. I'm pretty sure in Viet Nam you had 50 yard engagements and you had battles during the Tet Offensive out to hundreds of yards. What if your in the desert, what if your in the city, or the woods. The reality is it don't matter, you've got what you got, and you need to make it work. Where I live I can drive two hours in any direction and be in the woods, the hills, the city, or on the plains. Get the rifle for the fight you think is most likely and then figure out how to make it work for the other stuff, that's what I'm doing. As for shotguns, in urban warfare I thinks its a viable option. And when I say urban I'm talking towering buildings and city streets.
But this sounds like a new thread waiting to be made. ;D
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Both the vietnamese and our own government has stated that we "fired over 20,000 rounds for each vietnamese soldier we killed with small arms"... Full auto is only good for TV and playing with (yeah, I admit its REAL fun). Foot soldiers / battlefield rifles have no use for full auto. Each squad should have TWO guys with SAW's, M60's, something along those lines. The rest should be semi-auto.
If your on your own or in a small group using full auto your nothing but a REALLY good target. You MIGHT hit ONE guy before they kill you all!
I've seen your first post before, I went through ALL the rifle, and politics threads looking for it with out finding it, I'm NOT going through the 60 some odd pages of Downrange Cafe to find it.
To get to my point, it's bullsh!t published as a joke to show that no matter what rifle you like some pin head will have a problem with it. Even the guy who first wrote it didn't believe it.
As for "real soldiers" having no use for full auto, I'm betting that you never were one because you do not know what you are talking about. Do you really believe that full auto weapons have been purchased at great cost to the govt for 140+ years (first Gatlings were bought in the 1860's, The design is STILL in service ) because they LOOK cool ? or because they are "fun" ?
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Both the vietnamese and our own government has stated that we "fired over 20,000 rounds for each vietnamese soldier we killed with small arms"... Full auto is only good for TV and playing with (yeah, I admit its REAL fun). Foot soldiers / battlefield rifles have no use for full auto. Each squad should have TWO guys with SAW's, M60's, something along those lines. The rest should be semi-auto.
If your on your own or in a small group using full auto your nothing but a REALLY good target. You MIGHT hit ONE guy before they kill you all!
I'm going to agree with Tom on this. If it didn't serve a purpose it wouldn't be on the gun. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the M16 is a RIFLE with a full auto option, and the AK47 is a MACHINE GUN with a semi auto option. The AK was made for peasants to fight in cities at close range and fight effectively with little marksmanship training, so it shoots alot of bullets fast, its whole purpose, at least as it looks to me, was to be used almost exclusively in full auto. And I think the AK has probably killed more folks because the Rooskies flooded the world with a cheap and easy to use gun. And lastly I don't think its far to compare the M1 GARAND with 50's and 60's battle rifles.
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Some GREAT points warhake! I'd agree with 99% of everything you said. Thats where the forums get to be a problem. We'd have to type a full book to fully explain our points! I think most of everything I said, and most of everything you said amounts to.
You need to match the gun to the situation.
But that takes us out of our "ultimate battle rifle topic"... I guess there IS no "ultimate", and it surely seems from the other posts I just read some kiddies (mental only perhaps) are pretty bent out of shape to hear not everyone thinks what they spent their money on is the "ultimate"! At least those people are reading this and MAYBE learning...
I think the .308 is as close to the perfect battle caliber as 7.62X39. BUT, they both have disadvantages depending on where and how your using them. At close range I've seen evidence that the slower AK will do more internal damage than the .308. Only a fool counts on "caviatation damage", but to each their own.
When I say I'd consider the AR10 Its because I know the rifle better than the average person. As I've seen proven. The average soldier/person WONT remember things like checking the gas rings.
I still like the AK better because I've known them to work dirty or clean and be indiferent. I've know the AR to be as if it were intended to jam every round when dirty!
Keep praying for those 300 yard shots! Good luck with that.
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The only draw back of the Garand was the "no detachable box mag. otherwise it would easily hold it's own.
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"Whoever said the pen wass mightier than the sword obviously never encountered AUTOMATIC weapons."--General Douglas MacArthur
I'd say that's a pretty good accolade...
quote from Badgersmilk....
Foot soldiers / battlefield rifles have no use for full auto.
Uh,....sorry to disagree. Starting with the Maxim, Gatling, pick one.
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Interesting "you've seen the post before". I never posted it. Just put down a few of my thoughts from experiences I've had, but seems somebody else is of like mind... Hmmm. Maybe somebody who didnt just drop a couple grand on a gun that never gets shot anywhere but the range, and then get all bent out of shape because not everyone thinks its the best gun in the world...
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Everyone stop and breath! I'm still saying there IS no "ultimate". And you can argue that all day long no matter what you wasted money on. My personal choice stays with the AK... AR10 very close second. But I'm considering "urban self defense", "stick and move" tactics, along with my own personal experience, familiarity with the weapons, and taste.
DEAL WITH IT!
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Gatling came first by about 15 years. There was a poem in the late 1800's to the effect that the difference between the British Army in Africa and the Natives was that "we had got the Maxim and they had not".
An interesting historical note, The 4 competitors for the American machine gun market in the late 1800's (Maxim was in Europe though he was FROM Me.) Gatling, Nordenfeldt, Hotchkis,and Browning, were ALL manufactured at the Colt plant in Hartford Ct.
Hotchkis moved to Europe, Gatling and Nordenfeldt eventually opened their own factories across the street from each other in Hartford.
AK is not a "battle rifle". It is an "ASSAULT RIFLE" (AKA Sturm Gewehr) select fire , carbine length, intermediate cartridge.
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The topic is battle rifles not assualt rifles, and not carbines. That means no AK-47, SKS, M16, M4, SA-80, etc.
BTW, AR-15s and AR-10s will function just fine with the bolt rings lined up. It's only a myth that they won't.
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I haven't jumped in here for a awhile, but I really like the comment that the choice of weapons is strictly situational...I'm sunk in research/planning for TBD: SURVIVAL, reading one endlessly depressing scenario book after the other (Want to spread some good cheer? Let me recommend 7 DEADLY SCENARIOS: A MILITARY FUTURIST EXPLORES WAR IN THE 21ST CENTURY by Andrew Krepinevich, who has far too many credentials on this stuff)...I have almost convinced myself that I need an island, a bailout and at least one nuclear weapon...
Michael B
PS: I'm still gonna come down on the side of the FAL!
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(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h270/Sanjuancb/scoutsquad.jpg)
M1A Scout Squad
20 yards? Sure!
200 yards? Absolutely!
Reliable? You bet.
Powerful? 7.62 x 51mm
Heavy? If you have muscle mass from anything beyond lifting a TV remote, you can't complain about 9 lbs.
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Very fine machine.....the M1A......yep......very fine machine.
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Personally I'd leave off the bipod and carry more mags, but that's just me, I can still get into the sitting position. ;D
MB, If you can come up with the lathe and milling machine, I can build you the nuke, their actually fairly simple.
Oh yeah, you'll have to supply the plutonium too. ;D
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The scout rifle looks pretty sweet. Proves that with a few mods any of the rifles covered will do the job nicely! I'm with tombogan though, drop the bipod. Nice to see a new rifle that isnt covered with enough rails to attach everything including a cup holder and ash tray!
I guess a tactical nuke really would be the answer to "ultimate" wouldnt it?! Lots of people in Japan would agree anyway. Well, those that were left!
I'm more than a little suprised nobody's speaking up for the SKS yet! (sorry, I still dont like stipper clips). Come on SKS fans! Throw your hat in!!!
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The SKS is too small of a caliber to be a battle rifle.
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The "K" is for Karbine, it isn't a "Battle rifle" either. Nice Carbine though if you put a stock on it that fits an American build.
The stripper clips may be a PITA, but you don't HAVE to use them like the Garand clip, and it means there are no mags to lose or forget.
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The scout rifle looks pretty sweet. Proves that with a few mods any of the rifles covered will do the job nicely! I'm with tombogan though, drop the bipod. Nice to see a new rifle that isnt covered with enough rails to attach everything including a cup holder and ash tray!
I guess a tactical nuke really would be the answer to "ultimate" wouldnt it?! Lots of people in Japan would agree anyway. Well, those that were left!
I'm more than a little suprised nobody's speaking up for the SKS yet! (sorry, I still dont like stipper clips). Come on SKS fans! Throw your hat in!!!
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Guns/swissarmyar.jpg)
;D
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Mr Bane, you need a DSA Congo Para, folding stock (and internal recoil spring) 18" barrel, get an Israeli charging handle (for the forward assist), an L1A1 mag release and safety and the stripper-clip style railed scope mount and put you an ACOG on it.
That, 10,000 rounds and 50 magazines and you will be good.
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Well, glad to see my thread came back to life!
AR-15s and AR-10s will function just fine with the bolt rings lined up. It's only a myth that they won't.
Quite right, that is a big myth. When the bolt is inserted into the bolt carrier, part of the resistance you feel is bolt carrier compressing the gas rings. When the gas rings are compressed the gaps close off. It doesn't matter where they line up.
Fully automatic weapons most certainly do have a place on the modern battlefield. It doesn't take any real skill to put a bullet into someone from across the room with a rifle. With the exception of one or two target areas, you are not going to see instant incapacitation from any rounds you fired. This all boils down to doing damage. You need to do as much damage to the threat in the shortest amount of time to cause him to either volutarily or involuntarily quit the fight. This means multiple rounds in a very short time frame. This is best accomplished with fully automatic fire.
Badgersmilk has his life experiences on which he bases his decisions, as do you and I. Being first through the door more times that I can count, nothing has given me comfort more than knowing I have one more selector position, should I need it. That's my life experience.
I would also go easy on the attachments tirade. Most attachments enhance the operators ability to work in different environments. Sure, there is a lot of worthless crap out there, but there is some good stuff. Having the wisdom to know the difference is the big issue.
Let's try to keep this thread on track. If you want to discuss which rifle is best for a SHTF scenario, then please start another thread. This is about battle rifles, which are generally considered to be 308, 30-06, 8mm, etc.
Gentlemen....carry on.
USSA-1
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"The term battle rifle is usually given to post-World War II selective-fire infantry service rifles such as the H&K G3, the FN FAL, the ArmaLite AR-10, or the American M14." :Wikopedia
That REALLY limits the choices huh? Given the right stock's, triggers, and sights... I dont think you'd see alot of differance between their performance.
Hazcat. Almost pee'd myself when I saw that picture! BEST RIFLE EVER! I think I've seen a few of those at the local ranges too! If people see that thing in a movie its all over! It'll be the only rifle any self respecting man could ever own!!!
My goodness how little it takes for some people to loose control of their pride here!!! I have to throw two words out here just to see what happens... Mosin Nagant
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Oh yeah! The barrels kinda long, but wouldnt a SVD / Draganov fit in here? Yeah, yeah, yeah, everybody calls it a sniper rifle, BUT! Now we're talking about all kinds of variants and mods. with all the others guns listed too. Put on a 20" barrel, 20 round clip, and BAM!!!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Svd_1_russian.jpg)
Still... "Mosin Nagant" Somebody jump all over that!
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after picking one up last night, I am now a major fan of the M1A. What an awesome piece of hardware!
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Vietcong1968.jpg/300px-Vietcong1968.jpg)(http://www.freewebs.com/jahunit/aax.jpg)
He's waiting for you!!! Probably not going to see that 300 yard shot you were praying for though!
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On the topic of variants: Pick your favorite flavor! If you've got the cash these guys (DSA) make'em as nice as they come! I'd go for fourth from the bottom.
(http://www.dsarms.com/images/DuraCoat-CamoPattern.jpg)
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I like the "Marsh" one myself. Got a link?
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http://www.dsarms.com/
For color I'd say just green furnature and black steel, I like the features on the fourth from the bottom though. Nice build. Should be a pretty reliable, practical shooter... Out of my price range.
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http://www.dsarms.com/
For color I'd say just green furnature and black steel, I like the features on the fourth from the bottom though. Nice build. Should be a pretty reliable, practical shooter... Out of my price range.
ME TOO! $1,700.00 and up!
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That'll put a lot of AK's on the table!
While I dropped over a grand on my AR, I got a MAK 90 years ago for $169, 30 rnd mag's for $4.50 ea.. With two grand on the table I might still buy the AK, a BUNCH of ammo, and more training... Rifles are only as good as they guy carrying it. Mighty, mighty few are as good as they think they are.
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That'll put a lot of AK's on the table!
While I dropped over a grand on my AR, I got a MAK 90 years ago for $169, 30 rnd clips for $4.50 ea.. With two grand on the table I might still buy the AK, a BUNCH of ammo, and more training... Rifles are only as good as they guy carrying it. Mighty, mighty few are as good as they think they are.
30 rnd "mags" you mean ;D
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That'll put a lot of AK's on the table!
While I dropped over a grand on my AR, I got a MAK 90 years ago for $169, 30 rnd clips for $4.50 ea.. With two grand on the table I might still buy the AK, a BUNCH of ammo, and more training... Rifles are only as good as they guy carrying it. Mighty, mighty few are as good as they think they are.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/clipmag1.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/TigerFace.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/iCanyouhear.jpg)
pet peeve ;)
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That IS a bad habbit! Da$% TV! ;D
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Oh yeah! The barrels kinda long, but wouldnt a SVD / Draganov fit in here? Yeah, yeah, yeah, everybody calls it a sniper rifle, BUT! Now we're talking about all kinds of variants and mods. with all the others guns listed too. Put on a 20" barrel, 20 round clip, and BAM!!!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Svd_1_russian.jpg)
Still... "Mosin Nagant" Somebody jump all over that!
The SVD was DESIGNED as a SNIPER rifle. During WWII the Soviets fielded thousands of snipers, after the war they did a very thorough study of sniper performance and found that, most shots were inside 600 yards, quick follow up shots were needed for multiple targets, center of mass was a more likely target than head shots, They came to several other conclusions that I can not recall off the top of my head, but the body of knowledge obtained was all given to arms design Bureaus and incorporated into the sniper specific SVD "Dragonov". Have you ever handled one ? They are heavy and to long to be handy as a "battle rifle" They DO how ever do satisfactory work in their designed role. Oddly enough one conclusion of that study was that the 1890's era 7.62X54 cartridge was still more than adequate and it is still in use today having served longer than the .50 BMG OR the .45ACP.
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That IS a bad habbit! Da$% TV! ;D
He He He, HE SAID "CLIP". ;D
Badgersmilk, You might want "clip" that out ;D
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A new contender? Not really a "battlerifle".
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1381517/auto_assault_12/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1381517/auto_assault_12/)
175 yards is probably light for even home defense though, ??? ::)
tombogan, never been lucky enough to even see one in person. Arent they all 7.62X54 though? If were offering up variants and mod.ed rifles as options an SVD with a short barrel and bigger clip fits the bill. PRETTY GOOD!
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Had to throw "clip" in there again. Couldnt help it! ;D
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A new contender? Not really a "battlerifle".
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1381517/auto_assault_12/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1381517/auto_assault_12/)
175 yards is probably light for even home defense though, ??? ::)
tombogan, never been lucky enough to even see one in person. Arent they all 7.62X54 though? If were offering up variants and mod.ed rifles as options an SVD with a short barrel and bigger clip fits the bill. PRETTY GOOD!
;D Yes they are, spell check doesn't help with numbers when you hit the wrong key ;D I went back and fixed it.
AA12 has been around since the late 70's / early 80's never seemed to take off though
There's the Saiga, lot less expensive
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storecategory95.aspx
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Had to throw "clip" in there again. Couldnt help it! ;D
OOO NO :o
Haz is going to flip out ;D
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Had to throw "clip" in there again. Couldnt help it! ;D
Badger! You're gonna be on my sh!t list! >:(
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I blame it all on to many episodes of A-team & Magnum as a kid! :P
No comments on the Mosin yet?? It WAS a "battle rifle" you know! No chrome lined barrel, but you can buy the gun for the same price as a box of good ammo! And supremely balanced Acurate and powerfull enough at ANY range to easily compete with anything anyone here has, the 36 and 44 were classified as carbines, so there's a size to fit everyones taste!
No big supporters of the G3 or SKS either? Come on people, think outside the box! SAW, M60, BAR, dont just follow the leader!
The saiga... I'm not sure I can wrap my brain around what a AK 12 guage would really be like to shoot!?!? Certainly an original thought though!
That thing is just cool! The more I look at it the more I like it. Anybody got one? Has to be fun! Hmm, Maybe for next squirrel season.
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G -3's are OK, but I don't like the fluted chamber, I don't KNOW that it shortens case life (I reload ) but I do know that Non fluted chambers DON"T shorten case life.
SKS isn't a battle rifle, it's a intermediate caliber carbine, I already posted about that earlier.
Mosin Nagant is OK, I prefer the K 98 , better lines better workmanship. But that m
Nagant magazine follower is a cool piece of work. ;D
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OOO NO :o
Haz is going to flip clip out ;D
Badger! You're gonna be on my sh!t clip list! >:(
There, fixed 'em both! ;D ;D ;D
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Never heard about the fluted chamber. I hand load as well and hate running my stuff through most semi-auto's because the case damage. An AK will DESTROY cases! At least mine does every case its had in it. Puts a big dent in the side on ejection and throws the brass about 20 feet!
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The G-3 I know, and I assume (but don't know)the other CETME style roller locked guns require a Fluted chamber so the gases sort of "float" the case out of the chamber (Hope that is making sense) A guy I worked with at T/C A bought a parts kit , he was going to build his own PTR-91 for 1/3 the price, so he had some one in the barrel room make him a 24 inch .308 barrel, when he got it all together and tried it it was a bolt action. With a normal smooth chamber when the bolt starts to move to extract the case it is still pressed against the chamber wall and will not budge. Of course by the time you can manually work the bolt there is no pressure at all so it extracts and ejects fine. It takes special machinery to make a fluted chamber, in 2003 there was no company in America that had the machinery, H K will not sell barrels and the only place he could find that would, said he would have to pay $600 and wait till they did another run in a year or two.
But the Flutes leave bulges about 1/16th of an inch high fire formed into the case from extractor groove to neck so you have to fully resize them every time you reload them.
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From MOST of what I've heard people say about their HK's I'm not impressed. It's about all been negative. I wanna say I read that the G3 came about because HK was given a design aquired from FN due to political problems of some kind. HK wasnt able to come up with a functional design of their own in the required time... I dont remember how the whole thing went though. Like I say, I havent heard much good about anything of theirs.
Guy I've know a while (maybe not super smart) bought a new HK .45 a few months ago when it was their latest and greatest gun only to find HK's idea of night sights is glow in the dark paint... Nobody else makes sights for it yet because "its to new, and so expensive not many are selling". I think he paid over a grand for the thing too!
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AK or RPK. Drop me anywhere in the world and I'm within walking distance of ammo and mags.
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Badger and Tom, G3's are full auto, ergo not available, to most of us, but the HK 91 is a robust rifle, and possesses potential for better than average accuracy, it is hindered by non field adjustable sights, and a heavy trigger pull. The Cetme, in my experience is not fit very well, and generally does not work well, out of the box. I helped a friend of mine get his going and it took a lot of work. 1st failures to feed, and the original sight setting had it printing, 18" to the left, then it took 2 people to disassemble, I honed everything I could reach, to make it able to be dismantled by 1 person, and made a front sight adjuster out of an old screwdriver, and now it prints to point of aim, and the more it is shot, the better the reliability has become, but it is not in the reliable class yet, Another friend got one and it was even worse, and he sent it back to CIA, what he got back did work.
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I had the CIA CETME, No instructions, workmanship was "OK", function was flawless accuracy stunk for me but a friend of mine did OK with it Sights were crap. I paid $400 for it and put NOTHING into it but a cleaning, I would assume that for $4000 the HK would be accurate, Have GOOD sights and still function flawlessly, But that fluted chamber kills the deal and HK is a crappy company to deal with for civilians.
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Maybe its just me but if I have to choose any type of rifle to make my last stand i have 4 in mind. First would be my M1 scout,Ak47,98K,and M4. Ok my m4 is a 223 but its my last choice, so what if it came to throwing rocks or a knife the m4 really looks good. ;)
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Wise words, a lever action .22 will kill you just as dead as a 50 cal..
It just wont get as many hits on youtube
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I blame it all on to many episodes of A-team & Magnum as a kid! :P
No comments on the Mosin yet?? It WAS a "battle rifle" you know! No chrome lined barrel, but you can buy the gun for the same price as a box of good ammo! And supremely balanced Acurate and powerfull enough at ANY range to easily compete with anything anyone here has, the 36 and 48 were classified as carbines, so there's a size to fit everyones taste!
Ok,
i'll bite on the Moisin. After all a zillion dead Germans can't be wrong, and for less than $150 seems like neat little piece of history. Question is what about price and availabilty of 7.62x .54? I heard there was some static about the Russians not exporting. Any thoughts, because seriousely, just as cool history wise as the Garand I was thinking about and a lot cheaper.
fightinhquaker13
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WHEW HOO!!! :) :) :)
I love the things! No they dont come with a dozen rails you can mount every gizmo in the world to, no chrome lined barrels, and your not going to be everybody's favorite person at the range, at least the 44's and 36's with their shorter barrels MAKE SOME NOISE!!!, even known to throw a fair size ball of fire from the muzzle! But how great is it to spend about a hundred bucks (seen them for $69 even these days!), and get a good high power rifle with that kind of history! I have yet to hear anyone say they ever had a problem or jam of any kind if they really cleaned and looked over the thing when they bought it (amazing how much grease they can smash into one gun!).
Given a choice I'd take the 91/30. Madness you say? That things as long as a fishing rod! BUT, its better balanced than any gun I've ever held in my hands, & it shoots extremely well at 100 yards (as far as I've tested). The ammo is actually really easy to come by! Dunhams sporting goods, Bass Pro, Cabela's, most gun shops, ALL gun shows, and any site I shop at on-line has ammo CHEAP! Yes, almost all of it I see is corrosive except the "Lellier & Bellot" that is in current production, but that stuff scares the crap out of me because its WAY to high pressure in my guns (pushes the primer back around the firing pin!). If you clean your gun before putting it away after shooting it the corrosive ammo doesnt mean much. All the other brands I've tried shoot fine. And there are a couple companies making loading equipment for the round.
You could spend hours learning about the history of each particular rifle from the markings on them. Dont waste money on the books, everything in them and more is available on-line (my experience). They were used in service until the 70's, & some honor guards are still using them. A few people still consider them very compitent for sniping duty.
And if you get to pick through several rifles when you shop a good shooter isnt hard to find (watch out for a corroded bore!). No "common" mechanical problems to look for, some are VERY collectable, some are just good for shooting, some ARE JUNK! Again, be carefull shopping. There are way to many places selling them to just shop one store!
Who couldnt love a sniper grade rifle that has what amounts to be a ONE part trigger mechanism! Especially after looking at the trigger mechanism on, Oh, say, a Ruger 44 carbine. GREAT GUN! One of my favorites, but the trigger on that thing has more parts than a Sherman tank!
"Over 17 million were manufactured by the end of the war" (even more were assembled after that)
"just as cool history wise as the Garand"
CAUTION: You'd do better to call someones mom bad names than not praise the M1 as the finest tool ever devised by God or man on this site!
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J&G Sales has them starting at $65
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/rifles/russian/cPath/209_261?osCsid=b9ba3b9ef814818bc404bc1f95d876ae
Ammo
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/ammo-for-rifles/7-62x54r/cPath/12_42?osCsid=b9ba3b9ef814818bc404bc1f95d876ae
Quote from Badgersmilk:
"CAUTION: You'd do better to call someones mom bad names than not praise the M1 as the finest tool ever devised by God or man on this site!"
Lighten up . You don't hear the Mauser guys whining because some one pointed out their pick was designed for the previous war.
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Love to talk Mausers to! They're just as good as any! Personally I think the Mosin's a little more fun to shoot with all the flash, boom, & kick they have. Plus I cant get the DA#$ chamber in my Mauser clean enough to stop jamming. I've been told its not uncommon for cases to jam in the the way mine does because the chambers are very tight, and the grease they were packed in leaves a film inside the chambers thats apparently impervious to most normal cleaners and scrubbing... One of these days I'll pull the thing out and let some oven cleaner sit in there for a while. Tried about all the normal cleaners, and cases still stick (the claw is fine).
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Love to talk Mausers to! They're just as good as any! Personally I think the Mosin's a little more fun to shoot with all the flash, boom, & kick they have. Plus I cant get the DA#$ chamber in my Mauser clean enough to stop jamming. I've been told its not uncommon for cases to jam in the the way mine does because the chambers are very tight, and the grease they were packed in leaves a film inside the chambers thats apparently impervious to most normal cleaners and scrubbing... One of these days I'll pull the thing out and let some oven cleaner sit in there for a while. Tried about all the normal cleaners, and cases still stick (the claw is fine).
Have you tried heat or boiling water?
I've heard that sometimes does the trick. Or a light honing with JB bore bright on a patch, wrapped around a cleaning brush.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2609382056_15c9d94ebe_m.jpg)
M44 - (wont make you friends at the range) ;D ;D ;D
The mauser: I put a couple pots full of boiling water through it before. Not much improvement. I'll strip it down one of these days and try engine cleaner again, then the oven cleaner, maybe even a little laquer thinner inside. Last time I shot it I got fed up enough to just not want to see it for a while. :-\ It was throwing some REALLY ugly groups at even 50 yards with three different brands of ammo... The bore looks like new! I've just got a bad taste for the thing after all the cleaning and head scratching. Very out of character for these guns from all I've ever been told!
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What caliber is the rifle? Can you take some upclose pictures of the rounds before and after firing, bad groups with a bright bore and hard extraction, sounds like possibly a mismatch of cartridge and actual chambering, somebody rechambered it before you owned it, downright poor reaming from the factory. It might show up, measuring the cartridge after firing versus before measuring of the cartridge, especially the neck area. A molding of the chamber might be in order using cerro safe, a low temperature solder type metal, that you can use to make castings of the chamber and throat.
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A good thought! And I it had occured to me too.
This is what I bought at a gun show a few years ago ($179 back then). It was still in the box all wrapped up in brown paper and gallons of grease and all the accesories in a baggy.
http://www.mauser.org/rifles/M48%20Serbian/index.htm (http://www.mauser.org/rifles/M48%20Serbian/index.htm)
It's an "unissued gun", all numbers match. Floorplate, chamber, even the stock are all stamped 01511 with a little W on about every single part. All the documentation with it says 8X57, and all the ammo I'd bought says the same. I tried new Winchester, Remington, some OLD surplus FMJ stuff in stipper clips, and I remember trying a brand something like "Teller Salbot" or something like that (I'd have to dig out the box).
The whole gun is unbelieveable. Not a mark on it, looks like a bran new rifle you'd see on any store rack! Blueing, wood, machining is all BEUTIFUL! It just shoots like CRAP!
It's condition has kept me from using anything like oven cleaner or thinner for cleaning to date, and now that I pull it out from the back corner of the safe... I'd hate to do anything harmfull to it now! It's to pretty!
Where the term "wall hanger" comes from I guess. If it didnt sparkle and look so da$# nice I'd just sell it in a minute!
It only jams up once fired. I put calipers on the brass before and after firing... SAME! I've been told the goo that may be in the chamber gets sticky because the heat of being fired, and once it cools it "lets go"... What I've experienced... I'll buy that. It just STINKS!!! You name the gun cleaner, its been through there! Even spun a shotgun brass brush on a drill in the chamber (I know, I know, but...)
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I can't even imagine the stress a crappy gun can cause, but a carppy Mauser I don't believe it. I own 4 types of mausers myself and they shoot dead bang accurate. I have an Argentine 7mm Mauser and 2 98k's, and a model M63 tanker in 308. All perform as they should and have taken more game than I can count. Use good quality ammo or hand loads, there shouldn't be any problems.
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"Teller Salbot"
Sellier & Bellot? Out of the Czech Republic?
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That sounds more like the stuff! I bought that along with the other brands at Cabella's. Tried three of four rounds of each with the same results every time. The old surplus stuff shot the best group, but even that group looked like a blind person with Parkinsons shot it (I'm not THAT bad!). I finishing up another project tonight (SKS), maybe I'll grit my teeth, spit and cuss a few times, and get the mauser back out tommarow for further inspection / cleaning.
Ugggghhhh... :( At least its pretty.
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That sounds more like the stuff! I bought that along with the other brands at Cabella's. Tried three of four rounds of each with the same results every time. The old surplus stuff shot the best group, but even that group looked like a blind person with Parkinsons shot it (I'm not THAT bad!). I finishing up another project tonight (SKS), maybe I'll grit my teeth, spit and cuss a few times, and get the mauser back out tommarow for further inspection / cleaning.
Ugggghhhh... :( At least its pretty.
Badger...
Re: your avatar,
Try to eat this one!
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/tigerDM2805_468x320.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/tigerDM2805_468x680.jpg)
;)
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(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/tigerDM2805_468x680.jpg)
;)
My Yorkie could take em, Haz.... :D
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SUUUURRE ::)
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That kitty got no claws! Get me a nice kiete and some fatha beans!!! (http://ac4.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/04d52d39fc5b4044)
Just got the mauser out and gave it a good look over. A few noteable things with this gun:
VERY well balanced, pretty heavy for a carbine, NICE two stage trigger!, SUPER smooth, tight bolt, seems like somebody REALLY liked using stamps with a "1" on them!!! EVERY freaking part has a "1" on it! A few "BK"'s here and there, and a few "W"'s here and there. I'm guessing all that doesnt represent a "Burger King Wopper meal"...
I'll tear her down tommarow for some SERIOUS chamber cleaning. The chambers tough to inspect, but the bore is flawless to the naked eye. None of the fired brass ever had any telling flaws once you could get it out of the chamber! We'll see!
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SUUUURRE ::)
He's a REALLY tough Yorkie Haz! He's hell on one of those Pound Puppies..... ;D
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Badger,
Check "stupid" stuff like how tight the screws holding it to the stocks are (many are either too loose or so tight they warp everything). Just give her a good going over.
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He's a REALLY tough Yorkie Haz! He's hell on one of those Pound Puppies..... ;D
I got a 13 pound Maine Coon that will give him hell! :)
( actually if he's not a 'yappie' Yorkies are cool)
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I got a 13 pound Maine Coon that will give him hell! :)
( actually if he's not a 'yappie' Yorkies are cool)
Yea, Maine Coon? He's got chunks of Yorkies in his stool!!!! 13 pounds is a light one, ain't it? I've heard they can go thirty pounds!
Yes, he's a good mutt, well behaved. Barks when he needs too and stops when he's told to shut up. Never more than two feet away from the wife...... Anything south of the Achiles tendon is fair game...
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Yep 13 pounds is little they are usually 18 to 25 lbs. Someone had tossed him out, probably cause he was the runt. He is my constant companion. Follows me all over the house.
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After MUCH work to clean the chamber with solvents, boiling water, wire brushes in drill motors, I took my Mauser to the range. Dropped the hammer on three rounds (two different brands)... Nothing. Pulled the cartridges after "firing" them a dozen times each, and they only have a very light firing pin hit... I'd start thinking headspace problems, but the firing pin moves so slow when you pull the trigger you can watch it go!
First the sticking case issue... Now the firing pin spring aint cutting it (I store all my guns in the fired state to prevent just this sort of thing to!).
Maybe this gun was made by activists...
Could make a really nice deer rifle one day... When it starts going BOOM reliably. Factory spring is rated at 20lbs, Wolf makes only 22 and up... Was this a very common problem for Mausers?
Wolf
RIFLE SERVICE PAK contains 1 each 22 pound striker spring, bolt sleeve stop spring, floorplate catch spring and sear spring.
Stock No. 18053.....$ 10.29
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I have to say ypur problem vexes me. I do remember a problem i had with surplus Yugo ammo that had really hard primers that took up to 3 strikes to go off. I use Wolf and PRVI ammo and the problem was solved. I have also used m75 ball and no hick ups.
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This M48 has seen countless amount of ammo.
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My M48 failed to fire the first time I went to the range, a new firing pin spring cured that most Riki-tic
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"but the firing pin moves so slow when you pull the trigger you can watch it go!" Have you disassembled the bolt and cleaned it out. If you had to do so much work on the chamber, very possibly your bolt is gunked up. Could try a can of carburetor or brake cleaner, spray the caca out of it first and if it does not work, then disassemble the bolt. I finished cleaning up a Rem 700, the bolt had a lot of grease/junk in it and took carburetor cleaner to get it out. Works good now but has accuracy problems, bad muzzle, I think.
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Wheew hoo! SHE SHOOTS!!!
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/P1000871.jpg?t=1237996490)
That strings about 3", and I'm sure all my fault, not the gun. Didnt even take time to put a bulls eye on the can, I just wanted to shoot! This was my final group and at 97 yards. Put 24 shells through it and SHMOOOTH AS BUTTA! Not a single flaw.
I think the sticking problem was in the chamber where the neck of the case is. I had cleaned the chamber before with a 20 gauge brass brush, but it didnt scrub the neck area. This time I used a .40 caliber brush on the drill to get in there as well.
The Wolf firing pin spring is I'd guess a little more than twice as strong as the original to try to squish them in my hands.
Wall hanger no more!
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(http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=761.0;attach=2857;image)
I've got a couple box's just like this. '55 vintage. I read elsewhere the same thing Mauserman mentioned about it having really hard primers for this caliber... 10 rounds, no problems! I will say it kicks and pops a bit more than any of the other ammo I tried today. Gotta be loaded pretty hot.
Started inspecting all my cases... This is the only one with any problems at all. Wont be buying any more of this suff! Its from the middle box ('55 vintage).
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/P1000873.jpg?t=1237999294)
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The stuff I used was produced in the late 1980's early 90's and was everwhere during the Yugo crisis. I have four different muasers and use this ammo exclusively in two of them. Never had case issues with this ammo but i have heard that corrosive ammo may have been slightly over charged to get more long range performance. Thats why i stick to only certain ammo and posted a pic of the sweet stuff.
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54 year old ammo... Shame on me for being as surprised as I was when I saw a ruptured case!
Cool gun though! Couldnt be happier with the way she's shooting now! I'd never hack it up to find out, but MAN, I have to wonder what I could do with a good scope on there?!?! Targets with a bulls eye wouldnt hurt either! ;D
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I have a scoped argentine 7mm mauser and the hog body count is still growing. I have also used it with great affect on mulies and whitetails. As type this in im working in chopping up an old m48 my friends has to build a 30-06 sporter.