The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: billt on January 24, 2009, 02:35:44 PM
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I'm toying with the idea of purchasing a Green Laser from Lasermax. The kind that is very small, and attaches to the Picatinny Rail. They are much more expensive, ($400.00 + -), than the same unit that emits a Red Laser. I've never seen one in use, but I've read they are far more brilliant, and can be seen even in bright Sunlight. Can anyone with experience elaborate on this? If they are that much more viewable in daylight, they would seem worth the extra dollars. I'm just a bit leary of spending that much without actually seeing one first hand. Bill T.
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It may be less of a laser thing and more of the human eye. Green is the most easily seen color in the spectrum and there are relatively few greens in the environment. But there are lots of reds, bricks, walls, dirty concrete. Look around and you'll see that many things have a red undertone, they don't look red but if you really look at them you know that red color is in there. You can even see it in green plants.
But very few things are green or have a green undertone, so when you put that laser on something it'll probably "pop" more than a red laser.
So it sounds like a human thing rather than the laser just being better than a red one. In theory it sounds pretty solid.
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Green lasers are dramatically more powerful than red, on an order of about 50 times as powerful. Unless it's really dusty, you won't see a red beam in a room. A green beam in a medium dark room is visible. In a dark room, it's REALLY visible.
Some of the green lasers are visible in normal room, but I seriously doubt you will see it in daylight outside.
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This may be irrelevant, but here in Michigan some of the MDOT highway snow plows are using some type of a green laser guidence system during snow storms. I have only seen it a couple of times, and it sure was sparkly with that green laser reflecting off the snow flakes. Don't really know the theroy behind the system, but the idea of green being easy to see makes sense.
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It may be less of a laser thing and more of the human eye. Green is the most easily seen color in the spectrum and there are relatively few greens in the environment. But there are lots of reds, bricks, walls, dirty concrete. Look around and you'll see that many things have a red undertone, they don't look red but if you really look at them you know that red color is in there. You can even see it in green plants.
But very few things are green or have a green undertone, so when you put that laser on something it'll probably "pop" more than a red laser.
So it sounds like a human thing rather than the laser just being better than a red one. In theory it sounds pretty solid.
That's what I have read too. One caveat I have also read is they consumer more battery power than red beams. So carrying more batteries might be a requirement.
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Green laser pointers are significantly brighter (about 60 times) than a red laser pointer and because of its unusual color it is much more noticeable. Just about everyone has a red laser pointer.
Unlike a red laser, the green beam itself can be seen in mid-air in dark conditions, not just the laser beam dot. This allows the green laser pointer to be used for pointing to star constellations (skypointing) and also just generally look cool as hell. The green laser beam dot can be seen at much greater distances than with a red laser pointer
my self I am looking at getting http://www.laserex.net/product.laser.sights.htm one day
now for the fun police over here
<http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/29/2259656.htm>
Govt introduces laser pointer ban
Posted Thu May 29, 2008 5:30pm AEST
High strength laser pointers will be banned in Australia from July to crackdown on attacks on pilots.
Under new Commonwealth laws, people will need to hold a permit approved by police and customs to import laser pointers above one milliwatt.
Home Affairs Minister Bob Debus told Federal Parliament the new laws need to be backed up by all states and territories, which are responsible for policing the possession of the lasers.
"Together with the state possession laws involving significant jail terms I'm confident that the new Commonwealth regulation restricting laser importation will restrict the availability of laser devices and help us to change the culture to so disregard the potentially disastrous effects of their improper use," he said.
if you get caught in possesion of or using a laser of greater than 1MW in VICTORIA you are going to be in deep trouble. Like a maximum $6000 and or 12 months in a prison.
But you can get them, if you apply for a permit, and have no history of doing illegal stuff. ( I need to check up what it like in SA though ::) before I get one )
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This from Jeff Wiseman at CTC on green lasers (bold mine):
First allow me to address the hype of green lasers. A lot of laser manufactures are hyping green as the 2nd coming of laser sighting technology. Marketing buzz phrases like "50 times brighter than red," "Day Visible," "Brighter under all conditions," etc.... and they look pretty cool on TV right?
Green laser do one thing semi well and everything else pretty poorly. The one thing they do better than red is they do appear brighter. Power regulations are the same for both colors (can be up to 5mw) so we are talking about a difference of color only and that green is more sensitive to the human eye to see. Under sunlight green is easier to see than red, but all lasers regardless of color mute under bright sunlight, green is no exception. The brighter the sunlight the more the laser will mute until it is visibly useless to the shooter, the difference is with a green laser more bright sunlight is needed to mute it then red.
The problem is being the color green is easier for the human eye to see, under low light conditions (the conditions you are much more likely to need to use your laser equipped firearm in self defense) green offers some very real disadvantages. Under low light the green laser will splash off the target terribly making it difficult to discern the dot. Also under low light conditions the green laser itself is visible, one nice line from shooter to target. Finally under low light conditions the green laser will illuminate your surroundings (this is especially true inside buildings) like a green LED flashlight.
Furthermore green lasers are an IR diode with a chip that brings the color down into the green spectrum, because of this green lasers are 10 times less battery efficient than the current red. Also green diodes are much more fragile and more prone to temperature variations than the long proven red diodes.
To summarize, green lasers are currently not a good "all purpose" laser like the current red lasers are. I am personally of the opinion green lasers should be used or selected only for specialized tasks or missions where engaging bad guys under sunlight will be likely. Green is more of a specialized usage laser choice like IR than a good every day carry, all purpose, what you want on your gun 24/7, color choice like the red is.
As to the question at hand....
Will Crimson Trace ever make a green laser?
I have learned to never say never in this industry but at this time no. Until technology moves forward enough to eliminate problems like green diodes being fragile, being susceptible to temperature variations, and the battery drain problem, it likely will not be until these hurdles can be overcome.
http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=33880.0 (http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=33880.0)
Food for thought.
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I had a 5mw laser on my G22 I bought in 90 that cost more than the pistol. A red one that was good to about 100 yds in daylight. Now you can buy them for 40 $ they are a good training tool . Green ones are brighter, but IMO just a better bullet magnet. ???
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This from Jeff Wiseman at CTC on green lasers (bold mine):
http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=33880.0 (http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=33880.0)
Food for thought.
That certainly is worth considering. Even if everything he said is 100% factual, his point of view is certainly skewed. I wonder if Lasermax might have a different take....
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I understand they suck up batteries.
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I had a 5mw laser on my G22 I bought in 90 that cost more than the pistol. A red one that was good to about 100 yds in daylight. Now you can buy them for 40 $ they are a good training tool . Green ones are brighter, but IMO just a better bullet magnet. ???
Bullet magnet. 10-4.
On the other hand...seach some of the far eastern English language web site for red lasers greater than 5mW...........
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I saw a program a while back on the History Channel about "Less Than Lethal" weapons for law enforcement. They showed a type of rapidly blinking green light they use to shine on out of control prisoners. It is supposed to make them violently sick, causing vomiting within seconds of being exposed. The officers using it were wearing some type of goggles. Have any LEO's heard of this type of "weapon"? Bill T.
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That's part of the theory with the modern lights on Police cars, they don't blink in any pattern and it is supposed to make people nauseous
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That certainly is worth considering. Even if everything he said is 100% factual, his point of view is certainly skewed. I wonder if Lasermax might have a different take....
I think he's on the up and up. It would be easy for CTC to offer a green laser, and he did say never say never. I think they may be looking to see if the issues with green lasers can be solved, especially the one where it (green) acts like a tracer. Remember the saying about tracers?
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From what I've read the electronics involved in producing green Lasers cost far more than the same used for the making of red ones. I know I've seen those Laser pointers for a couple of bucks at Harbor Freight, and places like that, so production costs for red Lasers seem to be quite lower. I know the difference in price in the Lasermax model I'm speaking of is $210.00 more for the green model over the red. Both have a power output of 5mW. Bill T.
http://www.lasermax.com/product.php?id=104
$189.00 (RED)
http://www.lasermax.com/product.php?id=127
$399.00 (GREEN)
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My question is, aside from the cool factor, why would you want a laser beam to be visible? In a tactical situation, it's a nice big "here I am!" sign.
The visible beams are unbearably cool to play with (I have a green laser pointer that I love using in dark rooms, both for presentations and for playing around), but for $400, I'd want something laser guided, not just a sighting assistance device.
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My question is, aside from the cool factor, why would you want a laser beam to be visible? In a tactical situation, it's a nice big "here I am!" sign.
The visible beams are unbearably cool to play with (I have a green laser pointer that I love using in dark rooms, both for presentations and for playing around), but for $400, I'd want something laser guided, not just a sighting assistance device.
Be patient, their working on it. Thermal guidance too.
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Be patient, their working on it. Thermal guidance too.
Just like that movie with Tom Selleck and Gene Simmons, "Runaway", I think. Thermal signature tracking bullets with little explosive warheads. Cool in a Sci-Fi sort of way.
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My question is, aside from the cool factor, why would you want a laser beam to be visible? In a tactical situation, it's a nice big "here I am!" sign.
I have argued that point about flashlights mounted on handguns and AR-15's for some time now. I have older law enforcement books from the 70's, and all of them show LEO's holding flashlights at arms length to avoid drawing fire to the body. I can't understand the logic of putting a mini flashlight on a 600 yard weapon. On a handgun it only forces you to muzzle sweep everything you want to look at, and identify in a tense situation. That's how people get shot who aren't supposed to. As far as a Laser, it is a sighting device, not a viewing one. By the time the bad guy realizes he's been targeted, he'll most likely be out of the fight. Bill T.
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I have argued that point about flashlights mounted on handguns and AR-15's for some time now. I have older law enforcement books from the 70's, and all of them show LEO's holding flashlights at arms length to avoid drawing fire to the body. Bill T.
+1 on the flashlight location. My method for patrolling with light is to hold it at arms length and a little ahead to try not to light any bit of myself or my weapon. If someone starts blasting at the light hopefully the worst is my off hand is injured and I lay into the area of muzzle blast. Best case is they freeze in the light and lay down. Either way my center mass is NOT located directly behind the bright light.
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My question is, aside from the cool factor, why would you want a laser beam to be visible? In a tactical situation, it's a nice big "here I am!" sign.
The visible beams are unbearably cool to play with (I have a green laser pointer that I love using in dark rooms, both for presentations and for playing around), but for $400, I'd want something laser guided, not just a sighting assistance device.
Thats why you want the on/off abilities that crimson trace gives you
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I have argued that point about flashlights mounted on handguns and AR-15's for some time now. I have older law enforcement books from the 70's, and all of them show LEO's holding flashlights at arms length to avoid drawing fire to the body. I can't understand the logic of putting a mini flashlight on a 600 yard weapon. On a handgun it only forces you to muzzle sweep everything you want to look at, and identify in a tense situation. That's how people get shot who aren't supposed to. As far as a Laser, it is a sighting device, not a viewing one. By the time the bad guy realizes he's been targeted, he'll most likely be out of the fight. Bill T.
Good points. I'm keeping the light on the Five SeveN for possums and raccoons.