The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on October 15, 2013, 11:43:50 AM
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Has anyone dealt with these guys?
They are similar to other companies that produce unfinished "80%" AR lowers, and the tools to finish them, except they are kevlar/polymer instead of aluminum.
http://www.eplowers.com/
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Just say no Peg. I love plastic guns as you well know. But among folks I trust on a dedicated AR board, not ARF, but AR15 armory, no one likes these thing. Hell, science guys have gotten out the math to say why while they're great for pistols, in rifles not so much. This isn't just folks who like Tupperware vs rust bucket guys stuff. There is a serious level of distrust over failure in normal use, not worrying about taking it to the sand box. So, I advise saying no and getting a standard lower. There are plenty out there and for reasonable prices. Do you want a completed lower or a stripped one? There is a group buy I can get in on for a stripped Anderson if you want a DIY project.
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Just say no Peg. I love plastic guns as you well know. But among folks I trust on a dedicated AR board, not ARF, but AR15 armory, no one likes these thing. Hell, science guys have gotten out the math to say why while they're great for pistols, in rifles not so much. This isn't just folks who like Tupperware vs rust bucket guys stuff. There is a serious level of distrust over failure in normal use, not worrying about taking it to the sand box. So, I advise saying no and getting a standard lower. There are plenty out there and for reasonable prices. Do you want a completed lower or a stripped one? There is a group buy I can get in on for a stripped Anderson if you want a DIY project.
FQ...do you know of any of the guys have had experience with the polymer lower?
For sure I'd not be the first one to buy one, but I'd sure like to see one put through the wringer rather than just predictions of how bad they will do.
Most of Global Warming is from the predictions of science guys...not saying they are wrong and I'd Just Say No too..until there is proof they will hold up.
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I can get a stripped lower here in GA for around $80 + $25 for the FFL transfer.
I wasn't thinking about buying one as much as just mostly wondering if anyone had tried it, mainly for the experience in finishing the machine work. This set-up looks more user-friendly than the other frames out there that require a butt-load of "extra" equipment and tools to finish.
There is also the appeal of the DIY and no FFL transfer and paper trail thing.
I myself would probably never run a polymer frame rifle.... although, after many years using it in an industrial facility, I do know that if the properties of the material is made right, it is durable. I have seen "plastic" that would cause steel to wear out first (it acted like sandpaper against the steel).
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I can get a stripped lower here in GA for around $80 + $25 for the FFL transfer.
I wasn't thinking about buying one as much as just mostly wondering if anyone had tried it, mainly for the experience in finishing the machine work. This set-up looks more user-friendly than the other frames out there that require a butt-load of "extra" equipment and tools to finish.
There is also the appeal of the DIY and no FFL transfer and paper trail thing.
I myself would probably never run a polymer frame rifle.... although, after many years using it in an industrial facility, I do know that if the properties of the material is made right, it is durable. I have seen "plastic" that would cause steel to wear out first (it acted like sandpaper against the steel).
That lower is classed as a firearm by ATF. You still have to fill out the form and do the background check through a dealer on it. The rest is unrestricted.
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That lower is classed as a firearm by ATF. You still have to fill out the form and do the background check through a dealer on it. The rest is unrestricted.
That is only one a fully completed lower.
There is a percentage complete where it is not yet legally a firearm. My guess is that the 80% qualifies and a non-firearm.
If you complete it yourself, you have made yourself a firearm and get a bye of the FFL stuff.
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I think you're wrong Solus, and its a hell of a thing to be wrong about as it can buy you a free vacation in club fed. I'll do some looking and post back.
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Here is what I have found. I was and FFL dealer in the early 80's.
Unregistered Weapons
The trick is to have an unregistered weapon, and specifically for this post, an unregistered weapon that you legally built yourself.
On an AR-15, the serialized portion of the firearm is the lower receiver. That is the only part that requires an FFL transfer (background check, etc) to purchase. Everything else can be purchased without an FFL, but without the lower receiver, these parts are just paperweights.
So in order to have an unregistered AR-15, you must have a lower receiver that does not have a serial number, and therefore does not require an FFL. The easiest way to do this is to get an unfinished lower receiver, also called an 80% lower receiver (I’ve also seen 95% lower receivers), and finish the receiver yourself.
What is an 80% Lower Receiver?
An 80% lower receiver is a partially completed piece of material that requires special tooling and skills to be completed and considered a firearm.
Legality
How can this possibly be legal?
I'll try to find the paragraph in the law when I can.
Take a look at what is required to finish the lower. One item is a Drill Press... the holes need to by drilled.
It takes some work, but (and this is without legal reference) what it gets you is a weapon that is not registered and is not required by law to be registered. Again, this is without a current legal reference.
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Solus is correct.
If a receiver is 80% or less "finished" and still requires machine work, it is not considered a weapon. I do not know which (maybe all?) states allow it, but if a firearm is home made, for the maker's sole use, and never sold (that is the key) it is legal.
Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?
With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.
[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html#gca-manufacturing
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my understanding was its legal, you can not sell it and you must seralize it. I know you can not do it for any one else. You can not produce anything illegal or requring a stamp( with out get a stamp) so no making a machine gun, unless you have a lic to do so and selling strickly to leo and the miltary.
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Peg, here's the consensus. You MIGHT have a loophole if the thing doesn't have a serial number, if it does its a firearm. But once assembled it needs to go through the system. Just order it through an FFL. Its not worth the risk. Seriously, you're looking at 5-10 years if you freak around here. Just do it right buddy.
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I have a polymer lower on a 9mm AR. No issues at all. I really like it. But I don't thing I would care for it on anything more than a 9.
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The advantage I see to something like this is that it's similar to a Liberator from WWII. You have a firearm no one knows about that can be used in a emergency situation and possibly to get you a better weapon. Ideally, it never has to have a full magazine run through it.
This isn't the lower receiver that you use to build your primary rifle. This is for one of two things. 1. Use it to build the cheapest rifle you can that shoots. It can be used and tossed with little regret if need be. 2. Use it to build a cheap, disposable, lower, or possibly, put quality of you want spare parts or to swap them later. Put the upper that is exactly what you want to your specs on it. Use it to "acquire" a better lower and put the upper on it. You basically have the rifle you want and some spare parts.
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If you choose to purchase through an FFL, an inexpensive truck gun option is available here.
http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-upper-receiver-w-cosmetic-blemishes (http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-upper-receiver-w-cosmetic-blemishes)
Palmetto State Armory has been running intermittent sales on their blems as well.
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Yes it is legal. If the lower is not completed to a sufficient degree it is not considered a firearm. (kind of like a block of steel is not a firearm). Some of the companies selling these will offer a letter showing the ATF determination verifying it's legality.
You do not need to serialize them if you do not wish to. You can sell them - however you cannot manufacture with the intent to sell without the license required.
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If you choose to purchase through an FFL, an inexpensive truck gun option is available here.
http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-upper-receiver-w-cosmetic-blemishes (http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-upper-receiver-w-cosmetic-blemishes)
Palmetto State Armory has been running intermittent sales on their blems as well.
I wouldn't want a lower with "forging defects", especially since they can't be returned. Any other cosmetic blemishes would be okay.
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If you choose to purchase through an FFL, an inexpensive truck gun option is available here.
http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-upper-receiver-w-cosmetic-blemishes (http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-upper-receiver-w-cosmetic-blemishes)
Palmetto State Armory has been running intermittent sales on their blems as well.
Thanks for the link.... these are good prices for uppers and lowers........ good to keep in mind for building a rifle.
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I wouldn't want a lower with "forging defects", especially since they can't be returned. Any other cosmetic blemishes would be okay.
I agree, and have to admit that I missed the forging defects part on the page. I would say it is misleading when the page title says "cosmetic blems". Perhaps the forging defects are in appearances such as surface fluid runs? it has been my experience with the PSA blems that there is almost no discernable difference between them and non-blem. YMMV
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They have good prices on the non-blems also.
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The tooling need to complete one of these is pretty extensive. I have a tool collection that make most men get a hard on, i have a bridgeport and a lathe, but it would still be a could hundred bucks in tooling( or making lots of fixtures/jigs) to complete one of these. i supose you could do it with a kick ass drill press and a bunch of hand files, but most people can't even square the table on thier drill press let alone locate holes correctly. its not as easy as you think.
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If you have a mill, it really only takes a simple fixture that will allow you to hold the lower right-side up in a vice - accounting for the irregularities on the sides of the lower.
Is it so easy the average Joe can do it in his garage? Probably not.
Is it difficult if you have the right equipment and know how? Not at all.
Is it going to save you any money? Nope. Especially if you account for your time.
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That's the ONE appealing thing about the poly unit.... the machining.
Technically, it can be done with hand tools. (providing that you have mechanical aptitude, and patience)
OPTIMALLY, a mill would be better.
From their website:
Mandatory items you'll need:
Drill press
3/8" or smaller end mill
5/32 drill bit for the hammer/trigger pins
3/8 drill bit for the selector
C-Clamps
Dremel tool with a variety of cutter bits and sanding bits
Files
Sandpaper
Level
Safety glasses
Gloves
and of course some patience.
Optional items that will help:
Drill press table with X & Y axis (available from Harbor Freight Tools)
I have the aptitude, applicable skill, and the ability to do something like this..........
BUT, like I said earlier, I doubt I would buy one of these units ......(unless I just had the spare funds enough just to see, for the mechanical challenge).
I was just mainly: A) Seeing if anyone HAD done it
B) Providing information for conversation on a gun-related topic
(it is a firearms-related forum, yes?).
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[quote author=PegLeg45 link=topic=23469.msg285601#msg285601 date=138205
(it is a firearms-related forum, yes?).
[/quote]
Some days it is.
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A few 1000s of these might be handy if you were equipping the New Revolutionary Army....but then the web site is probably staffed by the FBI, day shift, CIA evening shift and HLS graveyard shift.
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Some days it is.
;D
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no way i would want to drill that with a hand drill. they just are not accurate. I supose you could make a jig to keep is square( locating could be done by several means and get close enough) drill bits don't produce that great of a hole anyways, drill, then ream.( hand is fine)
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You can also get a weldable lower kit here:
http://www.theflatspot.net/ar-15-receiver-flat.html
Another interesting sight for building your own stuff. I think this is Bill Holmes that has written a number of books on home made wepeons.
http://theredneckengineer.blogspot.com/
And another sight:
http://www.weaponsguild.com/
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I have a poymer lower for my AR. I've put a few thousand rounds through it and haven't had any issues so far at all.
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no way i would want to drill that with a hand drill. they just are not accurate. I supose you could make a jig to keep is square( locating could be done by several means and get close enough) drill bits don't produce that great of a hole anyways, drill, then ream.( hand is fine)
You can invest in a powered drill press for 139.99-199.99 from Lowes, Home Depot, or Sears. I bought a jig for 100 bucks too for my DPMS 308 lower. I'll be getting one for AR-15 soon too. Put in the time and I think it's a worthwhile investment. You can say you built your rifle to the point where you had to mill the lower. :D
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I crowd-sourced an 80% lower thru Rockethub, and the durn thing is finally shipping. The reason I bought it is to write about building your own lower for the blog, but the time and money needed to complete the thing makes it a dodgy proposition compared to all the cheap complete lowers out there.
And I have a polymer lower, one of the last of the original CavArms builds, and it works great, no issues with it at all.
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Heck, even Sportsman's Guide has unfinished lowers in stock.... just got a catalog for Spring and it had one in there.
Funny thing is the jig to machine it costs more than the lower. ;D
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/80-ar-15-lower-receiver.aspx?a=1561586
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I think you're wrong Solus, and its a hell of a thing to be wrong about as it can buy you a free vacation in club fed. I'll do some looking and post back.
FQ, After years in the business I can tell you that if the holes ain't drilled it ain't a gun, ergo, ATF don't care.
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The biggest problem I see with these isn't that they're made of Polymer, but rather many of them will be butchered by shade tree machinists when they try to complete them. People who are buying rifles made with these things will be purchasing a crap shoot. It's enough of a risk to purchase a kitchen table build off some mall ninja, who knows barely enough to be dangerous. When you're investing this kind of money in a weapon, you want some type of guarantee as to what you're actually getting, so you'll have some peace of mind as to reliability. This isn't it.
If you're a knowledgeable machinist who has access to an automated machine shop with the proper tooling, fixturing, and programming software, that's one thing. But that is most likely less than 10% of who will end up buying these lowers. Mostly it's people who want to skirt the law in some way, shape, or form.
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The biggest problem I see with these isn't that they're made of Polymer, but rather many of them will be butchered by shade tree machinists when they try to complete them. People who are buying rifles made with these things will be purchasing a crap shoot. It's enough of a risk to purchase a kitchen table build off some mall ninja, who knows barely enough to be dangerous. When you're investing this kind of money in a weapon, you want some type of guarantee as to what you're actually getting, so you'll have some peace of mind as to reliability. This isn't it.
If you're a knowledgeable machinist who has access to an automated machine shop with the proper tooling, fixturing, and programming software, that's one thing. But that is most likely less than 10% of who will end up buying these lowers. Mostly it's people who want to skirt the law in some way, shape, or form.
You are correct on the 'shade-tree' thing.
The thing is, these are not supposed to be sold once made into a working lower, unless registered with the BATFE with a serial number as a licensed manufacturer would do.
It is not illegal to BUILD your own gun, you just aren't SUPPOSED to SELL it once built (if I understand the regulations correctly).
Legally, the person building the rifle is the end owner.
I know that doesn't mean they aren't sold by people outside the law, so I am not disagreeing with what you are saying.
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IIRC you can also purchase "80%" Aluminum lowers as well. These would require even more precise fixturing and cutting to complete per Mil-Spec. While Aluminum machines easily compared to steel, it is substantially more difficult to cut than Polymer. Especially if it is forged T-7075. Some of that stuff is pretty tough and abrasive on tooling.
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IIRC you can also purchase "80%" Aluminum lowers as well. These would require even more precise fixturing and cutting to complete per Mil-Spec. While Aluminum machines easily compared to steel, it is substantially more difficult to cut than Polymer. Especially if it is forged T-7075. Some of that stuff is pretty tough and abrasive on tooling.
You can buy these from a quite a few places. You can also buy 0% and make them from scratch. I posted a tutorial in the Builders Forum and you can use part of that to do the last 20% on the 80% lowers. I am one of the "lucky ones" that has or has access to a mill/lathe and the tooling/abilities to do all the work myself. It isn't easy taking the 0% to 100% and I would suggest doing the 80%, the value in the machining already done is HUGE.
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IIRC you can also purchase "80%" Aluminum lowers as well. These would require even more precise fixturing and cutting to complete per Mil-Spec. While Aluminum machines easily compared to steel, it is substantially more difficult to cut than Polymer. Especially if it is forged T-7075. Some of that stuff is pretty tough and abrasive on tooling.
I worked in the aluminum industry for nearly twenty years......to be such a 'soft' metal, it can be a PITA.
Some aluminum alloys can be extremely rough on tooling.....aluminum oxide is used as an abrasive in many applications.
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Just saw this article posted on FB on a gun page.......interesting.
http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/#6Z6BoExdrRpxQWKd.01
The owner of an Oceanside store that sells various gun parts to build a rifle from scratch refused to turn over his customer list to federal agents.
Dimitrios Karras, owner of Ares Armor, said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were investigating their business, not for what they sell, but for the people who purchase their products.
Karras said the ATF threatened to shutter their business if they didn’t hand over the names of 5,000 customers who have purchased an 80 percent lower receiver (the base) for building an AR-15.
It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications. The base is not considered a firearm if it’s sold separately.
A manufacturer made an 80 percent receiver in plastic with a different material and colors which show exactly where the customer can drill making it easier and cheaper to build. The ATF said it is illegal.
The ATF sent stores, including Ares Armor, letters demanding they turn over the products and names of customers who purchased them.
“They said either give us these 5000 names or we are coming in and taking pretty much anything – which is a huge privacy concern and something we are not willing to do,” said Karras.
Karras’s attorney informed the ATF to pick up the receivers Wednesday morning at their Oceanside location, but the inventory was not the issue. The store owner said he will not comply with turning over their private client list.
“They were going to search all of our facilities and confiscate our computer and pretty much shut our business down,” said Karras. “The government invades our privacy on a daily basis and everyone thinks its ok. This is one of those situations where hopefully the governmental institutions will come in say this is protected and no you’re not taking it from them.”
In anticipation of a raid, they filed a temporary restraining order against the ATF, stopping them from confiscating their property, Karras said. The ATF has a certain amount of time to respond. If the two parties do not reach a compromise, they will be in court for a preliminary hearing March 20.
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Because of their very controlling nature, I doubt the ATF is going to let this "80%" lower business continue much longer. Especially when you consider how the whole concept is gaining in popularity. People don't want the government to know their business, or what they have. The government wants to know and control as much as they possibly can. They don't like or want any part of this. All that remains is for a major crime or shooting to take place with one of these weapons, and the ability to purchase untraceable receivers will be gone.
I've said much the same about Tannerite. As soon as some whack job blows something or someone up with the stuff, it will disappear faster than toilet paper after a Cholera outbreak. Then we'll have to listen to the MSM harp on about, "How could they let such dangerous material be sold to the general public without any traceability?" I think the reason both of these are still available is because the uber liberal MSM is too ignorant to even report on their existence. They've got enough trouble understanding 30 round magazines do not come pre loaded with ammunition.
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I've never understood the emphasis on tracking the receiver.
If you want to shoot someone with your 45ACP, get an after market barrel. Nothing at the scene of the shooting can connect it to your receiver.
Even if micro stamping is implemented, there is still noting at the scene to link to your receiver. Might have to dump the slide and the barrel to be "clean", but the receiver is clear.
If you police your brass, the bullet and some powder residue is all that might be at the scene and the bullet is identified by markings from the barrel.
There was talk of "taggants" in the powder but I don't think it went anywhere and there are so many ways to muddy that trail, it would be useless.
Not hard for any criminal to minimize or eliminate any risk from all this.....but then, we've known for a long time that hindering the criminal is not the objective of any gun control measures.
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I've never understood the emphasis on tracking the receiver.
If you want to shoot someone with your 45ACP, get an after market barrel. Nothing at the scene of the shooting can connect it to your receiver.
Even if micro stamping is implemented, there is still noting at the scene to link to your receiver. Might have to dump the slide and the barrel to be "clean", but the receiver is clear.
If you police your brass, the bullet and some powder residue is all that might be at the scene and the bullet is identified by markings from the barrel.
There was talk of "taggants" in the powder but I don't think it went anywhere and there are so many ways to muddy that trail, it would be useless.
Not hard for any criminal to minimize or eliminate any risk from all this.....but then, we've known for a long time that hindering the criminal is not the objective of any gun control measures.
All of this stuff is total nonsense. Which is the reason the ignorant anti gunners embrace it so much. Much like most other forms of Democratic government, it possesses zero common sense. Which is why it fails so well. Technology will never make up for mass stupidity.