The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: nosimij on October 10, 2016, 11:57:50 AM
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"Reloads are to be stored on the belt bullets forward". This is what we are all told.
I do not understand that. It does not feel natural. I also challenge that it is any savings of effort. I am not trying to start a 9mm vs 45 fight. Moderator if this is that kind of topic please delete this those argument do not help anyone, but I actually want to understand why what works for me is "wrong".
However lets compare the hand position required to get to the index finger on the nose of the leading bullet. For me to get there I have to chicken wing my left elbow out from my body. Rotate from shoulder to wrist to get the finger knuckles of my hand next to my body. As I move my elbow vertically to extract the mag the elbow moves ever further out to the side then the wrist rotates horizontally. It then comes into view where it can be inserted into the mag well.
A mag removal and insertion from a bullet rearward the hand drops straight to the belt or sweeps just as by dominant hand does for the weapon. Grasp the mag with the thumb near body and fingers the index finger aligns to the first bullet. I then from the shoulder rotate the hand into view with the bullet facing forward as my hand sweeps up into the mag well as the hand enters my "workspace".
Again the question is what am I missing/doing wrong. I still do not understand how the uncomfortable position, side load to the elbow and small motor rotation can be more efficient than the same or a very similar process to drawing the weapon.
I am talking week side belt mag pouch and I am not by any means an expert. Please reply with any details available.
To my knowledge everyone is training forward or forward if you do not have a preference.
Thank you
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Getting your index finger on the point of the top bullet in the magazine is the goal.
Orient your magazines in the carrier to facilitate your doing this quickly and securely.
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I presume this is some kind of competition rule, otherwise it sounds like BS.
Carry them in the position that is most natural for pulling, (from the holder) and pushing (into the mag well)
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Agree with Tom on this. What is most natural and when you practice it enough times it will become muscle memory.
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My feeling, defense or competition, is to go with what works best for you. To TomB, there is no competition rule that I'm aware of that dictates cartridge orientation. To the original post, after reading over and over, are you carrying with the magazine up or down?
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Moderator, what's that? :)
I carry bullets down and facing the rear. It works best for me. I agree with the guys above. Do what's best for you. The whole "you must do it a certain way" thought is silly (competition aside). If it works well for you, do it. Someone may get weird looks if he's pulling them from his hat, but he shouldn't be questioned if it works well for him. If someone is doing everything wrong but hitting the target, don't interfere.
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Neither, I carry mine bullets out. :o
Ok, that is my competition rig that I do that. Although I am now used to it enough, I need to find a maker that will make a concealment rig for that too. Right now, my CCW rig is bullets forward. If you find it works best for you going bullets back, then carry it that way.
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If it works and works safely, do what works.
I pull mags out of my pocket quick enuf and somehow, the opposable thumbs of me ape hands manage to get the mag in the well pointy end forward!
LOL
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Being a low speed hi drag type of shooter I carry them down and facing back.
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<snip> I am not trying to start a 9mm vs 45 fight. Moderator if this is that kind of topic please delete this those argument do not help anyone, but I actually want to understand why what works for me is "wrong".<snip>
Moderator? HAR HAR Matey, there be no moderator here! 8)
Uh, unless you know who shows up and puts us in the corner. I don't think she's around though....you never know though....
But I haven't seen her here in a long time.....keep an eye out though...
I like it oriented so that when I pull the mag my index finger is on the bullet nose side. That keeps my hand oriented without breaking my wrist so long as the bullets on my side are facing forward. I pull the mag out and the bullet noses are facing forward as I install the mag in the mag well.
https://youtu.be/baeFT5Avrx8 (https://youtu.be/baeFT5Avrx8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baeFT5Avrx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baeFT5Avrx8)
Hopefully one of those will link a video. Phil Strader has the fastest reload I've ever seen on video or in person. Check out which way he was oriented to make his reload...if you can see it..!!!! His index finger is on the bullet side.
This is not to say you put your index finger on the actual first bullet nose. It goes on the mag below that...for me anyway.
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Back, becuase the only time I carry an extra mag is in my shoulder. I grab with y index finger bullet side od rhe mag
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Both with magazines and speedloaders, I had to practice grabbing them with thumb and 3rd finger leaving 'pointer' free to index them into the mag well or cylinder. For me having the bullets forward is the easiest.
Now my question is, with a rifle, do you keep the strong side elbow up, or tucked in? If I lower my elbow the stock tends to want to slide off my shoulder.
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Back, becuase the only time I carry an extra mag is in my shoulder. I grab with y index finger bullet side od rhe mag
Whaddya' mean by shoulder? Shoulder holster? Strong or weak side...above beltline and under arm?
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This is where visualization comes in.
Picture in your mind the movements needed to to pull mag and insert into pistol, use the method that involves the least movement, then practice it.
Hell, that's how Cullen Baker invented the "fast draw".
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Whaddya' mean by shoulder? Shoulder holster? Strong or weak side...above beltline and under arm?
sorry, posting from my phone and deleted a sentence. shoulder holster, 'jack ass rig" (cross draw, mags under strong side) I use the 2 extra mags for balance for my delta or commander.
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load two magazines with dummy rounds... set up your phone or shot timer for a two beep duration of say a couple of seconds, less if you can... do a couple hundred reloads with bullets forward, and on a successive day a couple hundred with bullets rearward... keep track of the times you are over the par time of two seconds with each
I started with a single stack .45 and an 8 round mag... that is probably the last time I ever felt the bullet with my index finger... I find that bullet forward allows me to rotate the pistol at or slightly below eye level, guide the magazine into the mag well, and replace my support hand to the thumb forward position in a smooth continuous motion... I use the same motion with the AR, and give it a slight pull to make sure it is seated
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Read Les' post carefully and with an open mind. There is a reason competition carries bullet forward, and that serious self defense instructors (I've never read or heard reverse) teach bullet forward.
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Bullets OUT said Bidah
I saw that on a duty rig recently. Obviously a uniformed rig. The mags were holstered so their flat sides were perpendicular to the body. I didn't have time to ask the officer, nor stare at his rig long enough, to discover whether bullets were out or in. I also wonder if he shoots competition regularly. Maybe when I see him again I'll ask.
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Neither, I carry mine bullets out. :o
Ok, that is my competition rig that I do that. Although I am now used to it enough, I need to find a maker that will make a concealment rig for that too. Right now, my CCW rig is bullets forward. If you find it works best for you going bullets back, then carry it that way.
Bidah, I agree with you.
I have never used "bullets out" mag holders, but after considering this thread, I tried to determine which position would be best, at least for me.
And I found the Bullet Out (bullet forward rotated 90 degrees so the bullet tip faces away from the body) Additionally it would help if the sides of the magazine were exposed enough so that the index finger could be placed over the holder where the bullet tip was and the thumb and 3rd finger could grip the magazine in their final position...so that the grip did not need to be shifted from the starting grip to remove the magazine and keep the index finger over the bullet tip.
I am considering trying to find a manufacture who makes or would consider making this configuration.
If you find one, Bidah, let us know...
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tom, the index finger of the weak hand on the tip of the bullet isn't a competition rule but it is a method proven and used by the best of the best plus thousands of the best! That being said, if a method works for you and you can reload in under 1 1/2 seconds or so go for it.
Richard
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I will say that I thought the whole "bullets out" was some sort of weird fad. I ordered new magazine holders for my comp rig, and the ones I got would let you do it either way. I (very) quickly discovered that not only was I faster, I had less missed reloads. Not what I was expecting. So far, I have no problems switching back and forth, although I really should go "one way". For a typical double stack magazine, the only drawback from a concealment reasoning would be the base plate "may" stick out more. For single stack, it would be quite different. Although I guess it would not stick out much more that a double stack would. Just funny looking ;D
At this point I need to choose whether I want leather or kydex, as they would need to be custom made. I am still stuck right there LOL
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Well, I'll have to see what custom made will cost...sure doesn't sound cheap
For IWB there would not be much difference between forward and out for double stack, but for single stack, it might take another belt hole.
Thanks for the info, Bidah