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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: 1776 Rebel on April 19, 2008, 02:34:06 PM

Title: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: 1776 Rebel on April 19, 2008, 02:34:06 PM
I was discussing the Taurus Judge with a friend. My thoughts  follow:

I have handled a number of the Taurus firearms. I also don't think they are at the top of quality. Not bad but not great either. If you surf the web a bit you will find quite a number of complaints on quality, returns etc.  That ain't good for a defensive firearm that is supposed to work EVERY TIME THE TRIGGER IS PULLED. If you are just target shooting hey they are just fine.
 
As for carrying around a 410 for defense. HOLD ON HOSS....Pretty much everyone acknowledges that a full bore pistol is marginal for defense. So why would you want to defend your life with shotgun pellets. EVEN BUCKSHOT. Take a look at the following from: http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/mwdefence.html
**************
BUCK SHOT: Winchester makes a .410 buckshot load in a 2 ½ inch shell containing three "triple-ought" or 000 buck shot. The 000 buck is .360 in diameter, weighs 71 grains, and the first pellet out of the two shells which I chronographed out of a Remington Model 870 with 25 inch barrel crossed the chronograph screens at slightly above 1250 fps with a muzzle energy of nearly 250 ft. lbs. The other pellets were no doubt going nearly as fast. That gives three pellets each with as much energy as a standard .38 special police load, and a total energy of 750 ft. lbs. That would have to be quite effective. (I DISAGREE STRONGLY)
 
SLUGS: First, let us look at the common .410 bore slug. The traditional .410 foster-style slug has a 1/5 ounce or 87.5 grain slug at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1815 feet per second (fps) and developing a muzzle energy (ME) of 640 foot pounds (ft. lbs.). More recent offerings increase the weight of the slug to 1/4 ounce at a slightly reduced MV of 1755 fps for an ME of nearly 750 ft. lbs.
*******************
 
Now this is out of a 25 INCH BARREL. You have got to expect A LOT LESS ENERGY out of the Judge per pellet. I don't go for this aggregate analysis. "I get ten little school girls to throw you a beating vs Mike Tyson" which one DON'T YOU WANT? I suspect you want to stay away from Tyson. So if it boils down to defending my wife and children with a 71 grain round or even the 87 grain SLUG, FORGET IT. I am coming out loaded for bear...and it ain't gonna be with a Judge. The pellets by the way are ROUND BALLS OF LEAD. Gee, how do you think they will behave when they hit a target. If I am right, the military gave up LEAD ROUND BALLS ...er...a hundred and fifty years ago !

Here is my plan. I am starting out with a rifle, then going to a shotgun, then to a large caliber heavy weight round in a pistol. I want the round from whatever I am shooting to be bone crushing and have massive damage. Poorly aimed shots (which in the heart pounding critical situation and dark of night WILL HAPPEN) that will tear off limbs, shatter bones, rip blood vessels apart, send massive amounts of tissue and blood out the wound channel, and create hydraulic shock that reaches every point of the assailants body. I want it entering the body, doing its damage and yes EXITING. I want two points on each hit draining blood. It is no different than hunting. More loss of blood means the target falls down dead sooner. I want the coroner coming in with a hose to wash this guy off the sidewalk or out of my house. I want his final resting place to either be the sewer or some medical waster disposal container.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: gunman1911 on April 19, 2008, 06:49:19 PM
I have seen people shot with the .410 slug and it did the job.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 20, 2008, 12:35:40 AM
I have seen people shot with the .410 slug and it did the job.


May be true, but why bother with the slug if you can use .45 LC. The Judge MAY be a fun gun to shoot, but in my opinion any one who thinks of it as a defense gun is nuts.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Lucas on April 20, 2008, 12:41:49 AM
I like the versitility of the gun,  however it would not be my first choice.  I'm sure it will fit somebody's niche.  It would definatly fill the role of a "car gun" as previously covered,  and for someone who doesnt shoot alot it might be a good weapon. 
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: TAB on April 20, 2008, 01:37:42 AM
IMO, where the judge shines is as an anti car jacking weapon.  Other then that, I don't see much practical use for it.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 20, 2008, 09:18:34 AM
I can think of one place it would be GREAT, Take it to your local skeet range, if you can do well there, you are probably a pretty good pistol shot, At least it sounds like fun  ;D
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: TAB on April 20, 2008, 12:27:33 PM
I can think of one place it would be GREAT, Take it to your local skeet range, if you can do well there, you are probably a pretty good pistol shot, At least it sounds like fun  ;D

If you can break even 1 bird in a round of skeet with one that would be impressive.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 20, 2008, 12:40:38 PM
If you can break even 1 bird in a round of skeet with one that would be impressive.


I was thinking more along the lines of  Sporting Clays, I've heard that there are people who shoot them with T/C Contenders in .45/410, Of course the 3 inch barrel probably isn't enough, but it's something to think about.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 21, 2008, 12:59:11 AM
There's enough room in the cylinder for a .460, isn't there?

Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: MikeBjerum on April 21, 2008, 08:08:37 AM
There's enough room in the cylinder for a .460, isn't there?



Fit???  Yes  :-\

Taurus says it's ok?  Not listed as approved ammo  ::)

Rule #1 - Don't use unapproved ammo  >:(

Possible reason - Chamber pressures for .460 are much higher than .45 LC or .410  >:(

Possible result - Gun failure (translation - bits and pieces flying all over ... including into your body)  :-[

I would say stay away from .460 unless Taurus says it is ok.  I saw a Snake Charmer .410 revolver fly apart.  It is loud, and the shrapnel flying past your ears is an icky sound!  I heard reports of a 500 Magnum that failed also (several guys at the same demo when it happened) and it sounded like the exact same experience.  Don't tempt a gun to explode in your hand ... Your head is too close to the BANG!
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 21, 2008, 10:29:42 AM
Oh, I'm not recommending the Judge as it is NOW for high-steppers like the .454 Casull or the .460.

However, Taurus is really hurting the Judge's versatility by leaving it with a weak shotgun round and a middlin' .45 Colt that's far larger than their Raging Bull.

Meh... I'll just wait for a Raging Bull in .460 and "make do" with the .454 Bull.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: ismram on April 21, 2008, 01:17:31 PM
I don't think that I would go out and buy a Judge. But I don't feel that I would be under gunned if I had too use one in a defensive situation. If one wasn't enough keep pulling the triger! If I had one I think that I would load the first two with 410, and the last 3 with 45LC.  :)
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: ericire12 on April 21, 2008, 01:23:36 PM
I don't think that I would go out and buy a Judge. But I don't feel that I would be under gunned if I had too use one in a defensive situation. If one wasn't enough keep pulling the triger! If I had one I think that I would load the first two with 410, and the last 3 with 45LC.  :)

I agree....

Here's how I'd load mine:
1. 410
2. 45 lc
3. 410
4. 45 lc
5. 410
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Ron J on April 22, 2008, 08:13:51 AM
Kind of agree on the idea of getting hit in the noggin with a 250gr slug from a 45 Colt would be a tad unpleasant. 

I don't own a Judge but if I did, I doubt it would ever replace my usual "house guns" or carry gun.  All the same, it's an interesting gun and would be a really fun plinker.   
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: gunman1911 on April 22, 2008, 10:20:53 AM

May be true, but why bother with the slug if you can use .45 LC. The Judge MAY be a fun gun to shoot, but in my opinion any one who thinks of it as a defense gun is nuts.

Yes that is so but if that's all ya got hope fore the best and go for it! There was another revolver out some 20 years ago and I can't       remember the name of it( yes there goes Al again) and I had the same thoughts about it then. If I want a shotgun then I am going to buy a shotgun, if I want a revolver then I will by a revolver. On May 2 I will by a shotgun and it will not be .410
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 22, 2008, 11:11:37 AM
Yes that is so but if that's all ya got hope fore the best and go for it! There was another revolver out some 20 years ago and I can't       remember the name of it( yes there goes Al again) and I had the same thoughts about it then. If I want a shotgun then I am going to buy a shotgun, if I want a revolver then I will by a revolver. On May 2 I will by a shotgun and it will not be .410

 The " Thunder ?
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 22, 2008, 11:39:34 AM
Yes that is so but if that's all ya got hope fore the best and go for it! There was another revolver out some 20 years ago and I can't       remember the name of it( yes there goes Al again) and I had the same thoughts about it then. If I want a shotgun then I am going to buy a shotgun, if I want a revolver then I will by a revolver. On May 2 I will by a shotgun and it will not be .410

I think you're looking for the Thunder Five.

The gun LOOKED awesome.

Heck... 5 rounds of .45 Colt will make up for any who don't pack their underwear upon seeing that bazooka drawn from a hiding space.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Walter45Auto on April 22, 2008, 04:59:48 PM
I say Taurus needs to bring back the model 450 .45 Colt snubbie.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 22, 2008, 05:13:42 PM
I say Taurus needs to bring back the model 450 .45 Colt snubbie.

+1
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: gunman1911 on April 22, 2008, 07:08:00 PM
The " Thunder ?

Yep thats right. Guess you don't know Al? ;D
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Walter45Auto on April 22, 2008, 09:52:39 PM
I think you're looking for the Thunder Five.

The gun LOOKED awesome.

Heck... 5 rounds of .45 Colt will make up for any who don't pack their underwear upon seeing that bazooka drawn from a hiding space.

Didn't some of those come with a .45-70 cylinder too??? A snub nosed .45-70 would be badass. ;D Just the noise and flash wouldknock somebody on their ass..... 
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 23, 2008, 12:10:48 AM
A .45-70 Judge would kick serious booty.  ;D
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: pioneer on April 23, 2008, 05:18:13 PM
IMO, where the judge shines is as an anti car jacking weapon.  Other then that, I don't see much practical use for it.

According to the CEO of Taurus, the Judge was designed precisely as car-jacker repellent.  Put a load of birdshot in a bad guy's face at arm's length range, and I guarantee you'll disuade his further criminal behavior.     
Watch the videos.  http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-theJudge-video.cfm

Of course nothing will satisfy the Taurus haters among us.  For every anti-Taurus web site or blog complaint you can find, I can match you with anti-any other brand sites as well.  I own two Taurus revolvers, both are excellent and I would stack them up against any other similar revolvers.  I also own 3 S&W revolvers for comparison. 

I don't plan on getting a Judge and wouldn't carry one, but there are many types of guns I wouldn't want to carry.  Not because it is a Taurus, but because of it's limited use and I would consider it as a novelty.

Poor Taurus workmanship is a thing of the past.  So is poor S&W, Colt, Glack, what-ever.   

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Police/police.png)
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Ulmus on April 23, 2008, 09:23:18 PM
Let's look at it from a different angle.

Which would you rather have for home defense?
A Taurus Judge (short or long barrel)
-or-
A pistol/revolver chambered in .22lr or even .22mag?
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: ericire12 on April 23, 2008, 09:27:29 PM
Let's look at it from a different angle.

Which would you rather have for home defense?
A Taurus Judge (short or long barrel)
-or-
A pistol/revolver chambered in .22lr or even .22mag?

Apples meet oranges.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Ulmus on April 23, 2008, 10:08:36 PM
I'm just trying to show that while it may not be perfect, it may be better than other choices.

BTW my first home defense gun was a revolver in .38.  .38 short colt.  (The guy who sold it to me thought it was a .38 special)
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 24, 2008, 12:32:46 AM
I like Taurus' product.

I'm just saying that the Judge's cylinder is a bit inefficient for .45 Colt, and .410 has been disparaged as less than optimal.

Which is a shame - I think Taurus might do great finding a short barrel optimized defense loading.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: ericire12 on April 24, 2008, 12:17:20 PM
I like Taurus' product.

I'm just saying that the Judge's cylinder is a bit inefficient for .45 Colt, and .410 has been disparaged as less than optimal.

Which is a shame - I think Taurus might do great finding a short barrel optimized defense loading.

Maybe they should just make a Judge in 12 gauge
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Ulmus on April 24, 2008, 07:42:38 PM
Would you be using the Smith and Wesson 500 X-Frame as a warm up for the recoil?  :o
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: wisconsin on April 24, 2008, 07:52:18 PM
Maybe they should just make a Judge in 12 gauge
In a 3 1/2" of course
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: gunman1911 on April 25, 2008, 08:22:37 PM
A .45-70 Judge would kick serious booty.  ;D

Both ways! ;D
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: uhpretired on April 26, 2008, 09:59:28 AM
Now this is out of a 25 INCH BARREL. You have got to expect A LOT LESS ENERGY out of the Judge per pellet. I don't go for this aggregate analysis. "I get ten little school girls to throw you a beating vs Mike Tyson" which one DON'T YOU WANT? I suspect you want to stay away from Tyson. So if it boils down to defending my wife and children with a 71 grain round or even the 87 grain SLUG, FORGET IT. I am coming out loaded for bear...and it ain't gonna be with a Judge. The pellets by the way are ROUND BALLS OF LEAD. Gee, how do you think they will behave when they hit a target. If I am right, the military gave up LEAD ROUND BALLS ...er...a hundred and fifty years ago !

I think it depends on what part of the body the "ten little school girls" will beat on and for how long as opposed to Mike Tyson.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 26, 2008, 10:06:21 AM
Now this is out of a 25 INCH BARREL. You have got to expect A LOT LESS ENERGY out of the Judge per pellet. I don't go for this aggregate analysis. "I get ten little school girls to throw you a beating vs Mike Tyson" which one DON'T YOU WANT? I suspect you want to stay away from Tyson. So if it boils down to defending my wife and children with a 71 grain round or even the 87 grain SLUG, FORGET IT. I am coming out loaded for bear...and it ain't gonna be with a Judge. The pellets by the way are ROUND BALLS OF LEAD. Gee, how do you think they will behave when they hit a target. If I am right, the military gave up LEAD ROUND BALLS ...er...a hundred and fifty years ago !

I think it depends on what part of the body the "ten little school girls" will beat on and for how long as opposed to Mike Tyson.

I agree, Tyson is tall enough to to punch you in the head so you don't feel the rest of the beating till you regain consciousness. Little school girls will only be able to punch how high ? ouch !   :o   ;D
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: ericire12 on April 26, 2008, 10:23:46 AM
The pellets by the way are ROUND BALLS OF LEAD. Gee, how do you think they will behave when they hit a target. If I am right, the military gave up LEAD ROUND BALLS ...er...a hundred and fifty years ago !

I think it depends on what part of the body the "ten little school girls" will beat on and for how long as opposed to Mike Tyson.

Not in 12 ga Buckshot. The judge was an attempt at a downsized hand held version of the 12 ga buckshot concept. You know, a concealed carry shotgun.

Your point is right on target though. When it gets downsized past a certain point, you might just be better off with a single bullet that is designed for personal defense and capable of expansion - one that can create a devastating wound channel. Those little .410 pellets arent going to do that.

If you go over to the videos section of DRTV and watch the video of Baine shooting the judge  (http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm) it might just make a believer out of ya. I certainly am not going to go out and buy one as a personal defense gun, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be shot with one either! And if I already owned one, I would feel pretty good about my chances if I had to use it to fend off an attacker. 
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: ericire12 on April 26, 2008, 10:31:03 AM
BTW: We havent really discussed this on this thread yet, but what about The Judge as the choice for a personal defense gun specifically for someone who doesnt have much experience with a firearm?

You know, someone who might not really like guns or is a little afraid of shooting them, but feels it might be a good idea to have one in the nightstand just in case. Six .410 shot shells might be just the answer for someone that doesnt have a lot of shooting experience and who may not be a very accurate shooter in a high stress situation.   
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 26, 2008, 10:35:15 AM
In 410 i would only use slugs. UNLESS you were concerned about something like snakes or mice. On people .410 shot will not be practicle, If some felon is trying to hurt or kill me I do NOT want to hurt or scare him, I want to kill that SOB as rapidly as possible. The .45 LC is the BEST optoin for that, but if you are in a location where over penetration poses an unreasonable risk to other  and the range is VERY short, such as an apartment or car on a busy street, the slug will do the job with out going through the threat and hitting someone in the next car or room.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Overload on April 26, 2008, 06:43:48 PM
Why would you want to fire .410 97gr slugs, when the same gun will chamber 250gr .45lc rounds?

In 410 i would only use slugs. UNLESS you were concerned about something like snakes or mice. On people .410 shot will not be practicle, If some felon is trying to hurt or kill me I do NOT want to hurt or scare him, I want to kill that SOB as rapidly as possible. The .45 LC is the BEST optoin for that, but if you are in a location where over penetration poses an unreasonable risk to other  and the range is VERY short, such as an apartment or car on a busy street, the slug will do the job with out going through the threat and hitting someone in the next car or room.

Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 26, 2008, 06:51:08 PM
Why would you want to fire .410 97gr slugs, when the same gun will chamber 250gr .45lc rounds?


Because as I THOUGHT I made clear above, at car jacking range or part way across a room the slug stands far less chance of going clear through the bad guy and killing some poor ba$t@rdin the next car or the next room. This is a good thing because you don't go to prison for negligent homicide, Unless you LIKE living in an 8X10 room with some 400 pound gorilla that calls you sweet cheeks.   ???
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: wisconsin on April 26, 2008, 10:17:24 PM
Just a thought here. When you responded to a opinion, and you type your words in BOLD form isn't that the same as yelling? Everyone has a right to his/her opinion. That why we are on this forum. However if I mistook these BOLD words as yelling back than I must apologize.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 26, 2008, 10:45:03 PM
Just a thought here. When you responded to a opinion, and you type your words in BOLD form isn't that the same as yelling? Everyone has a right to his/her opinion. That why we are on this forum. However if I mistook these BOLD words as yelling back than I must apologize.

 In the reply box at the bottom of the page there are no "Bold" or "Italic" buttons, so I use capitals.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 27, 2008, 12:12:54 AM
Bold and caps inside also could mean added emphasis.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Dougdubya on April 30, 2008, 12:56:56 AM
From Farnham:

Quote
Taurus 4510

08 Mar 08

Shotgun/revolver:

Taurus is currently marketing their M4510, five-shot revolver. In their booth at the SHOT Show, Taurus showed us a video touting this gun as being designed specifically for use in preventing car-jackings. It is a big, heavy pistol, and reloading is slow. Comfortable, concealed carry is possible only for the biggest among us.

The revolver chambers and fires both 45 Colt ("Long-Colt") and 410 shotgun cartridges, however 410 shotgun shells are limited to the shortest made, 2.5 inches. In the promotional video, 410 birdshot was, not surprisingly, demonstrated on a "Shoot-n-See" paper target that is designed to make each pellet impact look much bigger than it actually is. The pistol's rifled bore aggravates the spread of the shot pattern. Even at a range of four feet, the birdshot pattern in the demonstration had already attained a diameter of eight inches.

As I watched, it occurred to me that, as a single-purpose "snake-gun," this revolver would be second to none!

I know of no actual shootings with this revolver on human criminals. However, a friend in OK just used his copy to dispatch a large skunk at a range of ten feet. He used #8 birdshot. The task required three hits, but the unimpressed skunk was far from DRT. He slowly waddled off, crawled into abush, and eventually died.

I can't imagine any size of birdshot, particularly from a short barrel, being an effective fight-stopper. However, loaded with 45 Colt, or 410 slugs or buckshot, I believe this revolver is at least arguable as a "car-gun." 410 slugs are available, as is 410/000bk (three pellets). My personal choice would be 000bk!

In a real fight, that one can use this revolver, or any gun, effectively, via any species of unaimed, "spray" technique, is little more than self-deception. To be effective in a life-threatening circumstance, shots from any kind of firearm must be aimed precisely by a competent Operator.

Just as cars that "drive themselves" are currently unavailable, guns that are effective in the hands of the untrained and willfully incompetent exist only in the minds of the naive.

/John

I guess 000bk WOULD work.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: Weston Whitten on March 18, 2009, 08:39:33 PM
I think this would make a really nice side arm for the ranch or farm.
Title: Re: Home Defense with Taurus Judge
Post by: fightingquaker13 on March 19, 2009, 03:14:08 AM
I think this would make a really nice side arm for the ranch or farm.

Alternatively, a great anchor for a canoe. ;D Anyway its just a matter of taste, and it could be a fun little gun to fool around with. Before you buy it for self defense though I BEG you to go to www.theboxotruth.com (or maybethebox'otruth?) and watch them do penetration tests. Don't employ bird shot for SD, and if you're going to use buck ( I wouldn't) get one with a 3" chamber. The 2 1/2 just isn't there. If you want .410 for SD check out www.bondarms.com. They're shake slayer takes the3". It's a great gun, but I got mine in .357 for a reason.
fightingquaker13