The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on April 26, 2009, 07:33:47 AM
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I'd like to put a question to the board. I know that the military has moved from 06 to .308 for general tactical bolt action guns. However, given the excellent performace at 300-500 yards (the most the vast majority will ever be shooting) why go for the .308?
I've been looking in the Savage catalog, as well as some very nice reviews of their latet offers (shooting 1/2 moa at 100 yds. in 06) and wondered why .308? After all 06 was standard issue for 50 years, is cheaper, more widley available, has more good hunting (hence man stopping, cause if it will kill a 200 ilbs. deer .....) loads available. What's the down side to 06? Why is the short action/ bolt stroke of the .308 worth the tradeoffs? I'd like to hear the debate. If anyone wants to weigh in on the .270, that would be welcome as well.
FQ13
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There is no down side to the .30-06 from the ballistics side. I have always read that it is the smaller size and adaptability of the .308 as to the shorter bolt throw or being able to put it into the AR platform. The .30-06 is ballistically superior, but not by much, it is not as flexible because of the length (approx. 12mm longer).
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There is no down side to the .30-06 from the ballistics side. I have always read that it is the smaller size and adaptability of the .308 as to the shorter bolt throw or being able to put it into the AR platform. The .30-06 is ballistically superior, but not by much, it is not as flexible because of the length (approx. 12mm longer).
Not sure what you mean by 'flexible'. Remington loads the 06 from 55 to 220 grains so you can find a bullet for anything (think about that 55 screaming out of the muzzle at 4080 fps hitting a ground hog or prairie dog ;D ).
the 308 has rounds from 125 to 180 grains. that seems less 'flexible' to me.
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30.06 vs .308
Push.
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.308 was made shorter to cycle in auto actions. 30-06 is a fine round but it seems that its days as a combat round are over, its now all about hunting. Both would get the job done, but I'd go with the .308 for its standardization and because you can find alot of combat loads, AP, steel core, tracer, frangible, etc. If SHTF .308 would be all over the place, LE and military.
I like the .270, its my favorite deer gun, but for TACTICAL and COMBAT I'd still go .308. I think if I shot alot out of a bolt rifle I'd rather have a shorter action.
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Several things.
If you handload OR if you're the military and can order any load you want there isn't any difference in the two rounds.
The .308 is a NATO standard (okay, okay, technically it is 7.62 x 51mm)
The larger case capacity of the 30-06 can actually be a hindrance to using some of the more modern powders. And faster burning powders may be called for with some of the shorter barrel guns. To that end witness the plethora of even smaller cased cartridges like the WSSMs.
Probably lowest on the list for non-military shooters is the weight factor or the cycling rate.
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Not sure what you mean by 'flexible'. Remington loads the 06 from 55 to 220 grains so you can find a bullet for anything (think about that 55 screaming out of the muzzle at 4080 fps hitting a ground hog or prairie dog ;D ).
the 308 has rounds from 125 to 180 grains. that seems less 'flexible' to me.
I just meant that the shorter cartridge made it more adaptable to more actions types.
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Below, 24" Barrel / 16" barrel, both share the same ammo (.308, 168 grain, teflon coated, ballistic tip, boat tail), TOTALY different applications, one drag bag, one ammo can. MUCH less muzzle flash, blast, and report than a 30/06. Significantly lower ammo cost when you start looking at thousands of rounds, plus .308 caliber is commonly found in use by military (HUGE benefit in what could possibly be a very bad situation)
Tactically: Advantage - .308
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/P1000876.jpg?t=1240777228)
If your just looking for a hunt'n rifle: Advantage - 30/06
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If SHTF .308 would be all over the place, LE and military.
No offense but this made me LOL. Yup, it probably would be all over the place...probably directed at you, me and all the other guys on this forum...
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In a bolt gun, go with either, I don't agree with cheaper necessarily these days, but I have not shopped o6 in a while. If it is plentiful in your area, and cheap, then buy a bunch of ammo and let that be your guide. The main reason I go for .308/7.62x51, is efficiency over the o6, meaning less powder for the same performance, availability, which is no longer true, except in my loading room, and much more load development has been done, compared to the 06, mainly due to popularity and match shooting, not to mention, it's use in sniping has driven every manufacturer to develop a Quote MATCH LOAD, in several weights, 155, 168, and 175 mainly. And in a tactical, less penetrating round like Hornady Tap 125's. In a semi-auto, not much o6 to chose from in a tactical, or battle rifle other than the garand, unless the new FN allows it.
Nothing wrong with the old girl, she's just been replaced with faster, lighter more efficient cartridges, I would not sell one to upgrade if I had one I liked, I got rid of mine years ago, including a really rare battle rifle, a Danish Madsen, it was in immaculate condition and fun to shoot, but let it go. It was made for the Columbian Government by Madsen, features a short stock with recoil pad, and muzzle break that did work. Peep sight and stripper clip loading.
http://64.82.96.51/5561-58.jpg
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The .308 it is in my opinion is way better then the 30-06 because you can have the gun go from an assault rifle from to a sniper rifle in just a few minuets, if you have the right platform on your rifle.
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Charlie Hatchcock used an '06 in Nam.
Funny how the "White Feather" came out in .308.
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I'm reasonably sure that Carlos Hathcock used a Winchester Model 70 chambered in .308...
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I'm reasonably sure that Carlos Hathcock used a Winchester Model 70 chambered in .308...
Based on everything that I've ever read or heard on the matter, you are correct...... unless it was waaaaaayyyyy back in his early days.
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I will take a 100 dollar bet on it. I'm sure.
You are right that it was a M70 though.
Wiki's wrong, you have to read the book.
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I'll conceed that your correct with .30-06.
Verification by: http://usmcscoutsniper.org/sniperpages/Carlos.html
and your also right when you say wikipedia is not a good source of actual FACTS. It's a good place to get a quick answer but should always be backed up by another source...
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Glad FQ13 brought this up. Been applying for jobs out west and do not have a good hunting rifle and was wondering about 30 o6 and .308 and would like to have one purchased if I have to move. Looking at bolt action though in case I find something in a anti-AR state. Just ordered a new PSE Bow to accompany me. Life is good. ;D
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Glad FQ13 brought this up. Been applying for jobs out west and do not have a good hunting rifle and was wondering about 30 o6 and .308 and would like to have one purchased if I have to move. Looking at bolt action though in case I find something in a anti-AR state. Just ordered a new PSE Bow to accompany me. Life is good. ;D
Ping, .06 is what I have and it will works on anything out west.
Where about out west are ya headed?
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In the last year or so, Field and Stream did a review of the best all around game cartridge and the .30-06 was far and away the preferred round by those that wrote the article.
Tactical? Unless I need to reach out and touch someone, don't think I'd use either.....give me a sidearm and a 12 ga shotgun. I'm not gonna give anyone a chance inside my comfort zone....which is getting smaller every year!
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Glad FQ13 brought this up. Been applying for jobs out west and do not have a good hunting rifle and was wondering about 30 o6 and .308 and would like to have one purchased if I have to move. Looking at bolt action though in case I find something in a anti-AR state. Just ordered a new PSE Bow to accompany me. Life is good. ;D
Lucky bastard! Speaking from experience, I can tell you that Indiana is a lot prettier in the rearview mirror as well. If you're looking at accuracy for long range go for a savage. Nothing else comes close. For light weight (and looks) I'd look at a ruger M77. I love mine, straight stock, nice wood, gorgeous blueing, weighs about six pounds and I can hit the bottom of a beer can at 100 yds. That being said, if I was right handed, I probably would have bought the Savage in stainless synthetic as the deer won't be impressed by how pretty it is. I'd also reccomend the Bushnell Elite 3500 to put on top. (I use a B@L elite 3000, but I think they're the same thing), it really does give you about thirty minutes more shootable light than you'd have with the naked eye and iron sights.
FQ13
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Looking and applying mainly in the Southwest. Wife wants to head to Texas. Put in for a job in Moab, Utah last night. Would love to take the Jeep out there and have a blast. I personally have been looking at Arizona or New Mexico.
I agree with FQ13 on looking at Indiana in the "rear view mirror", reminds me of a great Pearl Jam song. Going to miss the White Tail Deer though. I will have to take a look at the Savage line. I remember when I was living in Great Falls, Montana in 1991 and I saw Ruger 7mm for under $500. Can't touch that now and I did not hunt then. :(
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Looking and applying mainly in the Southwest. Wife wants to head to Texas. Put in for a job in Moab, Utah last night. Would love to take the Jeep out there and have a blast. I personally have been looking at Arizona or New Mexico.
If your a fan of dirt, move to Arizona, if you are fond of commies, move to New Mexico. But if you love awesomeness and the greatest state in the Union than come to Texas. Just make sure you don't move south of Austin, the Governor sent a scouting party into San Antonio last week, we haven't heard from them. ;)
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Looking and applying mainly in the Southwest. Wife wants to head to Texas. Put in for a job in Moab, Utah last night. Would love to take the Jeep out there and have a blast. I personally have been looking at Arizona or New Mexico.
I agree with FQ13 on looking at Indiana in the "rear view mirror", reminds me of a great Pearl Jam song. Going to miss the White Tail Deer though. I will have to take a look at the Savage line. I remember when I was living in Great Falls, Montana in 1991 and I saw Ruger 7mm for under $500. Can't touch that now and I did not hunt then. :(
For the money the Savage is the way to go. ;)
In 30.06 ;D
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Dirt does not bother me but I hate commies. Those who let Russia into NATO should be shot. Russia will always be communist as long as former KGB members run their nation. Guess a few people forgot that their Doctrine was World Domination. Just my two bits on that. I will have to re-consider New Mexico and take a harder look. Texas rocks and lived in San Antonio for 6 months when I was in the Air Force. Beautiful place but better if you can speak fluent spanish.
Was looking at the Springfield M1A at Gander Mountain. Had a stainless steel barrel and synthetic stock. The price was a little over $1,200. Went back to buy it and was gone. :(
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I will take a 100 dollar bet on it. I'm sure.
You are right that it was a M70 though.
Wiki's wrong, you have to read the book.
I stand corrected, sir. ;)
Glad I didn't bet, but I only bet when I'm 100% certain....and on this I wasn't certain because I have not studied up on the earlier years. I had read the article (same one that Timothy posted) a long time back but had just missed the '06.
It appears that over his career, he used several different rounds for different purposes (30-06, .308 Win, and .300 Win Mag.).
From the link Timothy posted, and worth reading:
.............. Carlos used a .22 rifle with open sights to hunt rabbits and squirrels for the table, and by the time he joined the Marines at age 17, he was already a good shot. In boot camp, his skills were refined with formal instruction, and he qualified as Expert - "which was few and far between, at that time." From there, he went to Hawaii, where he won an intramural shootoff and was picked by the Hawaii Marines rifle team. Honing his skills still further in NRA Highpower Rifle competition, Hathcock specialized in Service Rifle competition with the National Match M-1 Garand.
In 1962, upon completing his tour in Hawaii, Carlos transferred to Cherry Point, NC, where he coached on the rifle range and competed on the Wing team. Funds were limited, and Carlos began traveling to matches at his own expense, to augment the experience he could obtain through the team. What equipment were they using then? "National Match M-ls and issue Match ammo. It was a real good combination." Did the service rifle shooters ever use handloads? "Absolutely not." Eventually, Carlos began shooting 1000 yard competition, using a Winchester Model 70 Target rifle fitted with an Unertl target scope. This rifle, in cal. .300 Winchester Magnum, was accurized by the Marine Corps rifle team armorers at Quantico, Va. and his ammunition was handloaded by loading shop personnel.
Carlos Hathcock on Sniping Equipment
Carlos served in Viet Nam in 1966-1967, and again in 1969. On his first tour, he used primarily the Winchester Model 70 Target rifle in .30-06, with an 8X Unertl target scope having outside adjustments. Speaking of this combination, he noted, "I loved it. I thought it was great, at the time." Was the scope reliable in its adjustments and return to zero? "Yes, it worked well. I did take off the recoil springs, however. I preferred returning the scope to battery myself each time I shot, because then I knew it went back to the same place each time." [Readers may recall that Hathcock had extensive competitive experience with this rifle/scope combination prior to his arrival in Viet Nam.] Despite his prior exposure to handloaded target ammunition in .300 Win. Mag. for competition, Carlos commented that the accuracy of the rifle was good with issued Lake City Match ammo. and that he never used handloads to enhance accuracy. However, the Unertl target scopes did have a tendency to fog in wet weather, which hampered his effectiveness.
The later Remington M-700's in 7.62 NATO also worked well, but Carlos wasn't a fan of the issue Redfield 3-9X scopes, noting, "Heck, we had more scopes in the shop than in the field, at times. Guys were ranging back and forth with 'em, and the power adjustment would go out. I wound up telling my guys to just leave 'em on 9X. They had a rangefinder, but it would only go up to 500 yards. I kept my scopes zeroed at 700 yards!" Would a more modern rifle have made much difference in Hathcock's effectiveness? "Yes! Definitely! We had wood stocks, which didn't do very well over there - the zero kept changing. A fiberglass stock would have kept our zeros the same."
Carlos mentioned that he had not used the M-21 (accurized M-14 sniper system) while overseas. How about suppressors? "No, our noise suppressor was distance. We just shot from so far away, they couldn't tell where we were." Did Hathcock ever use night vision? "No, I never did. Now, I did use an infra-red scope one night, and I was scanning with this scope, and there was an infra-red looking back at me! Click! I turned that sucker off quick! It was an attention-getter! We never really had much night vision capability with our rifles, any how. Starlight wasn't too much good. You could kill the heck out of a tombstone, and all you gotta do is pay for it." He laughed as he explained, "McAbee did that - he saw this tombstone that looked just like one of the bad guys... he kept banging at it, but it never fell, and he had to pay for it. I didn't like them Starlights, anyway. Things were green in there, and I never could make anything out with 'em, to tell you the truth."
What was Carlos' opinion of the standard M-14 rifle in combat? "It was very reliable... very, VERY reliable. When them M-16's first came in country, man, they were killin' a lot of people - the people shootin' 'em! When I went back the second time, I would NOT let my people carry the M-16 'cause I wanted all my people to come back. And, I never lost a person over there." He laughed goodnaturedly as he went on, "Never lost nobody but me, and that wasn't my fault!" What does Carlos think of the M-16 now, with all the improvements that have been made to it since Viet Nam? "Well, I've never had much experience with M-16's. My son [SSG Carlos N. Hathcock III, USMC] seems to like it, 'cause that's what he's armed with. He shoots it in matches, and he seems to like it."
Carlos mentioned that he had kept his rifle zeroed at 700 yards while in Viet Nam. I was especially curious as to whether he might have worked out a trajectory table for his scope in clicks per 1 00 yards, in order to change his elevation zero as needed. "No, I mainly held off, and I taught my people in my platoon to hold off, too." How much wind did he encounter in Viet Nam? "it was considerable. I was shooting across a river, one time, and the wind just whistled down the river. I missed two bad guys in one day... I didn't hold enough, and hit in front of both of 'em. Then, other times, I held just right..." How about in the early mornings and late evenings? "Oh, yeah, it was calmer then, except in the monsoon season, when it was windy all the time. It was rainy... Jeez, what a time that was." Could he operate effectively during the monsoon season? "No, that's when you turned into an observer, actually."
Moving to more modern equipment, Carlos mentioned that he had helped test several scopes as part of the development of the M-4OAl USMC sniper rifle following the Viet Nam War. The winner was a new design by Unerfl. This fixed 1 OX was so tough that the final test involved using the scope to pound a tent stake into frozen ground!! Carlos' eyes lit up as he recalled the testing... not only did the scope continue to function, it wasn't even dented!! And what of sniper rifles for the police counter-sniper? "In all the schools I've given across this country, I've seen a lot of hodgepodge mess, from people who didn't know what to use, so they used all kinds of stuff," he snorted. "Light barrels... heck, after three shots, those bullets will go everywhere that you DO NOT want them to go! You will never, ever qualify on MY course with a light-barreled rifle. We recommend only the best equipment for the job. That's a Remington 700 heavy barrel, in caliber .308. We also recommend the Leupold fixed 1OX Ultra scope, and the Harris bipod - the swiveling type. Of course, they're the most expensive, but... they're good ones." Carlos still prefers fixedpower scopes over variables, due to their greater simplicity. I was curious about his preference for scope reticles. He holds that the current 3/4 mil dot reticle is now as advanced as is possible, with little room for improvement as a range-estimating aid.
When we moved to the subject of ammunition, Hathcock had definite views here, as well. "We recommend Federal Match .308, with the 168 grain hollowpoint Sierra. We've tested all the brands the department can buy, and Federal Match is by FAR the best. It's the most accurate, and the quality control is magnificent. I've been up to the company to see how they make it - there are so many quality control checks on each and every round that goes through there... Whew!!" Carlos' minimum accuracy standard for sniper rifles intrigued me. What does a master sniper consider the minimum necessary to get the job done? In his view, a military or police sniper rifle must be capable, at a minimum, of keeping 3-shot groups inside one minute of angle at 100 yards. On the subject of stocks, Carlos considers an adjustable cheekpiece and adjustable buttplate to be highly desirable options. Overall, however, his equipment preferences stress simplicity and reliability above all else. And, he should know. His preferences are based on extensive field experience, not theory. As he says, "I believe in the K.I.S.S. program: Keep It Simple, Stupid! I love that. I don't like nothin' complicated. I'm not a very learned man, but I know this job!"
http://usmcscoutsniper.org/sniperpages/Carlos.html
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'This rifle, in cal. .300 Winchester Magnum, was accurized by the Marine Corps rifle team armorers at Quantico, Va. and his ammunition was handloaded by loading shop personnel.'
Wouldn't it be great to have that facility at your disposal?
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Dirt does not bother me but I hate commies. Those who let Russia into NATO should be shot. Russia will always be communist as long as former KGB members run their nation. Guess a few people forgot that their Doctrine was World Domination. Just my two bits on that. I will have to re-consider New Mexico and take a harder look. Texas rocks and lived in San Antonio for 6 months when I was in the Air Force. Beautiful place but better if you can speak fluent spanish.
Was looking at the Springfield M1A at Gander Mountain. Had a stainless steel barrel and synthetic stock. The price was a little over $1,200. Went back to buy it and was gone. :(
Ignore the commie bit about New Mexico, its BS unless you're in Taos (which actually has the worlds best Mexican place, Paisanos {sic} with blue corn burritos covered in green chile sauce, sorry, I was having a personal moment). The state is beautiful, has every kind of weather and terrain you could want, great food, friendly folks, lots of deer and javelina and elk, as well trout and if anyone on this board lives there and is hiring anyone to do anything, I'll work for damn cheap right now.
FQ13
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Ignore the commie bit about New Mexico, its BS unless you're in Taos (which actually has the worlds best Mexican place, Paisanos {sic} with blue corn burritos covered in green chile sauce, sorry, I was having a personal moment). The state is beautiful, has every kind of weather and terrain you could want, great food, friendly folks, lots of deer and javelina and elk, as well trout and if anyone on this board lives there and is hiring anyone to do anything, I'll work for damn cheap right now.
FQ13
The great thing about Texas is we have got all that, except its better and there are no New Mexicans. ;D Nah, New Mexicans are all right, once your waving good bye to them.
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........ I'll work for damn cheap right now.
FQ13
My septic needs pumped. ;D
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My septic needs pumped. ;D
And yet you live in Pa., pump ityourself. :-*
FQ13
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My Father in law is an old Marine and retired Forest Ranger in Montana. When I began hunting with him and asked about caliber he barked 30-06 and that was the end of discussion. The dude was a real Daniel Boone in the woods and took everything from Moose down to Goats with his Winchester. Though I lived in MT for 18 years I am considering places to go as MT isn't what it used to be. Texas is one of them but with all due respect all the land is owned, there is no Forest Service land. I'm not sure how to handle that but I like what I hear from down there.
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Texas is a great place to live. Once you get passed the heat and the mosquitoes with wing lights, it is absolutely the best place on earth. (I may be slightly partial, never lived in any other state.)
There are still HUGE amounts of open land. You can come by plots being sold off by some of the aging ranchers relatively cheap. Plus, there are large urban areas, if that's what you're into. I for one, am not... :P
I do still hold a boy hood fondness of Montana because of a childhood friend's father. He would tell all kinds of great stories about the state when he was a youngster. But, as you pointed out, it ain't what it used to be.
If you decide to move to the greatest place on earth and some how end up near me, (hard to do with so much space) we'll go out, send a few rounds downrange and have a few drinks.
TEXAS RULES!!! WOOOO!
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Cours de Lane (Sp?), Idaho was pretty sweet when I passed through it. Traveled there on my way to Seattle after I got out of the Air Force in Great Falls, Montana. The Bob Marshal Wilderness looked like a great place to camp and hunt and I think it borders along Montana and Idaho. Gorgeous land up there. Further up to Glacier National Park in Western Montana is incredible. I visited Glacier before I saw Yellowstone. Glacier blew Yellowstone away in my opinion. I would love to make it back to Montana to hunt and fish. I remember coming upon herds of elk and mule deer. Ring necked pheasant was quite abundant and seeing massive trout in crystal clear streams. While I was stationed out there they were filming the movie "A River Runs Through it". Great flick.
If I was ever able to make it back out there, I would take a .308. The bears were everywhere.
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My Father in law is an old Marine and retired Forest Ranger in Montana. When I began hunting with him and asked about caliber he barked 30-06 and that was the end of discussion. The dude was a real Daniel Boone in the woods and took everything from Moose down to Goats with his Winchester. Though I lived in MT for 18 years I am considering places to go as MT isn't what it used to be. Texas is one of them but with all due respect all the land is owned, there is no Forest Service land. I'm not sure how to handle that but I like what I hear from down there.
That is the one downside to TX.There is very little public land. Its OK for dove quail and waterfowl,or hogs if you bowhunt, if you're willing to drive. (I lived in Austin and could get where I needed inside of 3hrs or so). Deer was a very different story. I was able to get drawn on one lottery hunt and generally was succesful going standbye for two or three hunts a year. Beyond that, get out your check book. Its not just the price of a paid hunt or getting a lease thats a problem either. The local tradition says high fences and feeders are ok. I didn't criticize it when I lived there, and I won't now, but its not how I prefer to hunt. If you can find a lease with a half dozen or so guys though, you are in deer heaven there. Not mention that the Central Texas Hill Country is just God's country anyway. Plus a lot warmer than Mt.
FQ13
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Back to the 06 vs. .308, I was under the impression that the military went to .308 because it was virtually the same ballistics with a smaller package: i.e. easier to carry more ammo. M.B. has even mentioned the development of poly shells with brass ends for .50 reducing the weight aboard helicopters enough to allow them to carry 30 or 40% more ammo.
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Yes Bro's, it was the shorter more efficient cartridge, delivering the same mail, in a military weapon. 06 can do all the .308 can do and some better, but most will never use it to it's full advantage, the shorter action guns are more popular and all the military guns, except the Garand and Bar, and like my previous post the Madsen are not chambered for it. Any Given 06 chambered rifle will not shoot the wide variety of loads available to the best accuracy, yes the sabot loaded 30/06 with the 50-55 grain bullet haul ass, 4,000 fps, but that does not mean they shoot well, Prairie dog at 400 yards good, doubtful. But are they explosive, you bet your ass. The 125 to 300 grn loads, your rifle will like something in between, out to a hundred yards, probably ok for minute of Venison with any of them, personally would not like to shoot with 300 grainers very much.
As far as Texas, yes We own the land, any public land is cool to a point, for those of us, who cannot afford, to lease from individuals, and it has become expensive, but public land is subject to those in government, I would rather deal with an individual than an entity. A new governor cannot shut down landowners with the stroke of a pen.
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As far as Texas, yes We own the land, any public land is cool to a point, for those of us, who cannot afford, to lease from individuals, and it has become expensive, but public land is subject to those in government, I would rather deal with an individual than an entity. A new governor cannot shut down landowners with the stroke of a pen.
As a good libertarian, I can't mount a principled argument against that. So I'll get sneaky and become practical instead. ;D Texas is unique, in that it was soveriegn before becoming a state, and so there is very little federally claimed land. Thats just a fact and it won't change. But....the future of hunting, and the shooting sports as well as the 2A depends on people having access to hut and fish easily and at a reasonable cost. Otherwise, they'll take up golf instead. It seems to me a wise investment for a variety of reasons to provide a way for blue collar folks, teachers, mechanics etc., to be able to hunt. If they can't they won't take their kids. If they don't what are the odds that their kids will take theirs? Thats what happened in Europe. Hunting was the perogative of the aristocracy, and no no one else gave a damn. As went hunting, so went gun rights. It doesn't require vast public holdings. Kansas leased private lands to let the public hunt birds. CRP land takes hunters as well. It might cost a bit short term, but without a gun culture based not on ideology, but rather childhood memories and current experience we are screwed.
FQ13
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How about this FQ, you stay there in Florida and I'll keep Texas. Then you can sit awake at night and wonder who got the better deal.
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How about this FQ, you stay there in Florida and I'll keep Texas. Then you can sit awake at night and wonder who got the better deal.
You win in a heart beat Tex. If I could find a job within radio range of Austin, I'd be there tomorrow. The thing is, you didn't address my point. Its not academic either. We need, as 2A supporters to nurture a gun culture. I've seen it die in So. Fl., except for SD. This seems like a slender reed upon which to base the future. I have issues with the FUDDS, God knows, but every household with a shotgun in it, is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. The thing is, in grad school at UT, I tried to get my friends to hunt with me. They were not, however, willing to get up at 1:00am and drive south of Houston for ducks, or three hours to Mason to be there by 6:30 on the chance to standby on a deer hunt. I was, because I had the bug. They never got a chance to catch it. How many converts did we lose?
FQ13
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You win in a heart beat Tex. If I could find a job within radio range of Austin, I'd be there tomorrow. The thing is, you didn't address my point. Its not academic either. We need, as 2A supporters to nurture a gun culture. I've seen it die in So. Fl., except for SD. This seems like a slender reed upon which to base the future. I have issues with the FUDDS, God knows, but every household with a shotgun in it, is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. The thing is, in grad school at UT, I tried to get my friends to hunt with me. They were not, however, willing to get up at 1:00am and drive south of Houston for ducks, or three hours to Mason to be there by 6:30 on the chance to standby on a deer hunt. I was, because I had the bug. They never got a chance to catch it. How many converts did we lose?
FQ13
Not really going to get into it all, but the main problem with your theory is, you are basing it off a bunch of F&*@tards in Austin. Austin is probably the most liberal, most homosexual inhabited city in Texas. I don't have facts that I can print out and show you, but I don't live much more then an hour away. And on unfortunate occasions, I've had to go there.
So stop making your assumptions off your college days spent in Austin, or any time in Houston for that matter either. It doesn't represent the rest of this great state.
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Not really going to get into it all, but the main problem with your theory is, you are basing it off a bunch of F&*@tards in Austin. Austin is probably the most liberal, most homosexual inhabited city in Texas. I don't have facts that I can print out and show you, but I don't live much more then an hour away. And on unfortunate occasions, I've had to go there.
So stop making your assumptions off your college days spent in Austin, or any time in Houston for that matter either. It doesn't represent the rest of this great state.
Once again, you've made your political POV clear. I'm not going to argue, because as as long as you're pulling for the 2A, I don't much care about it except as an exchange of views we can hopefully learn something from and have a little fun with. But, will you maybe try addressing the substance of my posts?
FQ13
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I just caught this and I think if you look for a thread with Hunters vs. Shooters a lot of questions will be answered. If I am remembering correctly, most of the growth in gun ownership is SD and not hunting. While I can understand a nostalgic view of hunting, it isn't the sustaining force in the gun culture anymore. MB had a lot of helpful statistics in the above mentioned post. As for an anecdotal piece of evidence, I don't mind hunting and wouldn't mind going, but I have never been. You will not find a stauncher 2A person if you dug up Madison.
The hunting aspect, while nostalgic and a piece of Americana, is not the reason for the 2A. It stands as a check against abuse of government. You can clearly see who's wanting to control you via our ever growing federal behemoth (checkmark next to my name in DHS). If we ever lose the SD argument, hunting will be an afterthought as well, ask England, Australia, etc.
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MB has addressed in his blog the fact that hunting is a fading sport, not only in percentages of participants, but as a percentage of sales. Example, last year, with the massive sales of their M&P rifle and pistol lines S&W still lost money. Why ? Because Thompson Center which is aimed strictly at hunters, lost 46% of their sales.
The NRA and the rest of the fire arms industry focused on "Hunters" for decades with minimal results, now with BO in the Whitehouse the focus has shifted to "Shooting" sports and civil rights (2A ) and the results have been a 30% increase in NRA membership and 25%increase in monthly NICS checks, which of course does not take into account the untold number of private sales. And what are the guns that you have to wait to get ? AR's, AK's, semi auto hand guns. The people driving the market today don't specifically give a crap about "hunting" they are concerned with protecting life and liberty.
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I'll tell you the truth, if I was facing "a bunch of F&*@tards in Austin... probably" zombies I would be armed with the .308. "Quick Response" from Robar. It's the the ticket. My wife can carry more of the .308 ammo than the '06 so that firms up my choice.
http://www.robarguns.com/qr2.htm
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I'll tell you the truth, if I was facing "a bunch of F&*@tards in Austin... probably" zombies I would be armed with the .308. "Quick Response" from Robar. It's the the ticket. My wife can carry more of the .308 ammo than the '06 so that firms up my choice.
http://www.robarguns.com/qr2.htm
Dude, the only threat you're going to face in Austin is pretty girls, great live music, good food and cold beer. Lions, Tigers and Bears Oh My! ;D
FQ13
PS This is assuming the TX leg is not in session, but that only happens every other year so you're generally safe.
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Not really going to get into it all, but the main problem with your theory is, you are basing it off a bunch of F&*@tards in Austin. Austin is probably the most liberal, most homosexual inhabited city in Texas. I don't have facts that I can print out and show you, but I don't live much more then an hour away. And on unfortunate occasions, I've had to go there.
So stop making your assumptions off your college days spent in Austin, or any time in Houston for that matter either. It doesn't represent the rest of this great state.
Agreed, unfortunantely I live close by and every bit of that statement is correct. But I'd rather live by Austin than San Antonio or Houston. In Austin, its not mandatory that you must get stabbed or shot by gangsters on the way to work.
WOW...this thread is way off topic. We should just start a new thread called 'Why Your State Isn't As Good As Texas'.
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My reply's are found before here, yes I love Texas, and there is ample public hunting if you want to go through the bullshit, which is a lot like going to a public range, Yahoo's everywhere who may or may not have good ethics, values and the most important Safety on their minds, some of the rough parts like the Palo Duro canyon weed out the weekend hunters due to the harshness of hunting, lots of walking and stalking and if you do good, lots of work to get the kill back out, kind of like Colorado, which I have hunted public land, and it is unique to hunt in CO, get to your hunting area before light and watch as the sun comes up the orange vests in the landscape and watch their movements as I did, in a large draw, and the animals moving away from them, too far away for shot without a .50 BMG, but close enough to see with bino's, the deer and elk were definitely aware of the human presense. And just making adjustments to their daily routine, 200 yards ahead of the hunters, at all times, in thick woods.
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My dad just picked up the T/C Icon in .308. It is one nice gun that shoots very well. Personally, I'll keep my old M77 in .30-06 anyday. I can shoot it well enough to go deer for deer with him (actually I out do him with better sight and hearing ;D ). Something I have also been looking into is a .260 for some "reach out and touch" shooting. I know the 06 will and can do it but I was wanting to try something different. I miss NM. I spent some time growing up there and miss being able to go out in the desert and hunt rabbit, dove or just go shooting. We don't quite have that here in VA. with all the private land.
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Got a chance to look at some rifles at Gander Mountain today. They only had one chambered in .308. Can't remember who made it but I did not like it. I did check out the Savages. Nice, but I did fall in love with a Remington (not sure the model number) with a synthetic stock and a Bushnell on top. Plus I liked the price range which was just a little over $500. It was in 30-06 though. There was a .243 that was really sharp too and quite a few .223.
As for ammo, it was still pretty bare.
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Either one is fine for me. Have lot of experience with both. Don't have a 308 for once in my life but I do have a 30-06 in a Remington 721 that went from 3" group to 3/4" group after taking off 2" of barrel and new crown. Except for a 40X, haven't had a 308 do that but never put in that type of work in the rifle which might have had about same or better results. The 40X could do 1/4" groups which was good enough for me.
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.250 groups with a .308 bullet BETTER be good enough for you. ;D If it isn't a cloverleaf you can't prove the others hit, it IS possible to be TOO accurate. ;D
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You guys are Marines.....one can NEVER be TOO accurate!
Hooahh!!
;D ;D
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You guys are Marines.....one can NEVER be TOO accurate!
Hooahh!!
;D ;D
Unless you are shooting for score ;D Ask the pro's about "perfect doubles". ;D
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Unless you are shooting for score ;D Ask the pro's about "perfect doubles". ;D
Perfect Doubles are the twins I dated back in '81..... ;D ;D 8)
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Perfect Doubles are the twins I dated back in '81..... ;D ;D 8)
Are you sure ? You have mentioned that you used to drink a bit. ;D
Two 5's do NOT equal a 10 in this case. ;D
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Are you sure ? You have mentioned that you used to drink a bit. ;D
Two 5's do NOT equal a 10 in this case. ;D
Tom, It could be even worse!
He didn't even say that either one of them there twins was a girl!
;D
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Are you sure ? You have mentioned that you used to drink a bit. ;D
Two 5's do NOT equal a 10 in this case. ;D
Lovely is an understatement, trust me! ;) The good Lord did a fine job on those two and for the sake of full disclosure, I never dated them at the same time...just the same year!
Tom, It could be even worse!
He didn't even say that either one of them there twins was a girl!
;D
That's harsh Haz, very harsh....... :'(
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Lovely is an understatement, trust me! ;) The good Lord did a fine job on those two and for the sake of full disclosure, I never dated them at the same time...just the same year!
Must have been that Foxworthy mustach we saw in another pic. ;D I'm gonna have to see if I can pull that off
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Must have been that Foxworthy mustach we saw in another pic. ;D I'm gonna have to see if I can pull that off
aka the "pornstar" mustache.....I don't think Foxworthy invented it....both my brothers still sport those silly things these days but not me!
I shave at least once a week whether I need to or not! ;D
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A sailor who did not date the two at the same time, what is this world coming to? You let the Naval Service down. Marine sure would not.
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A sailor who did not date the two at the same time, what is this world coming to? You let the Naval Service down. Marine sure would not.
;D ROFL, I don't know DM, I'm not into the idea of carrying my Mating tackle around in my shirt pocket. ;D
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I have read somewhere that some snipers have moved to the 338 ??? anyone else heard that?
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Also the .416 Barrett
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I have read somewhere that some snipers have moved to the 338 ??? anyone else heard that?
That may be their dream cartridge, but I bet they're all still using .308. Is there any room for a specialty round like that, even in the military?
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That may be their dream cartridge, but I bet they're all still using .308. Is there any room for a specialty round like that, even in the military?
YES ! there have been stories in American Rifleman and shooting Times about military snipers using/testing several larger calibers because of some drawbacks with the 50 BMG
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The Remington Model of 30-06 I saw Wednesday at Gander Mt. was the Remington 770. Really thinking about picking one up and saw one on Gunbroker that was .308. The wife already gave me the green light so I am going to have to shop around and here what others think about it.
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Also the .416 Barrett
I'd love one of those...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fs5zhCI9pY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fs5zhCI9pY)
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I have a 30-06 and a .270. I like them both but choose the .270 for hunting (hence the 270 in my handle). I 've killed deer and pigs with both. I think if I had chosen a different rifle to shoot the -06 I'd probably being shooting that. Instead I have a TC Encore. Oh well....seemed a good idea at the time. Now I'm looking to return to a bolt gun (In my opinion, the biggest mistake I have ever made in my firearms choices was selling my Ruger M77 .270 and buying the TC Encore "system".)
I'm looking at a Remington VTR in .308 at my local shop. It is used and on sale for $700. I'm thinking that would be a good choice on many levels for deer, pigs, varmints, and two-legged predators.
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... It is used and on sale for $700. I'm thinking that would be a good choice on many levels for deer, pigs, varmints, and two-legged predators.
That sounds like a bad deal to me. Used for $700? They go for that new. Does it already have a scope on it? Got a friend who picked up one in .308 a month back for $650. It's a nice light rifle and isn't too bad on accuracy.
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Yeah! For $700 it'd better come with a nice scope on it!
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I have a 30-06 and a .270. I like them both but choose the .270 for hunting (hence the 270 in my handle). I 've killed deer and pigs with both. I think if I had chosen a different rifle to shoot the -06 I'd probably being shooting that. Instead I have a TC Encore. Oh well....seemed a good idea at the time. Now I'm looking to return to a bolt gun (In my opinion, the biggest mistake I have ever made in my firearms choices was selling my Ruger M77 .270 and buying the TC Encore "system".)
I'm looking at a Remington VTR in .308 at my local shop. It is used and on sale for $700. I'm thinking that would be a good choice on many levels for deer, pigs, varmints, and two-legged predators.
Leave that Remington alone, unless it has real nice glass or othe extras. Honestly IMHO, you did screw up selling that M77 .270. (Give yourself a slap on the back of the head). I know people say that Rugers can vary considerably accuracy wise from rifle to rifle. Me, guess I just got lucky, but my .270 M77 will put three in the bottom of a beer can at one hundred yards and three in the can seated at 200. That's not BS and it's not bragging either, because I am not a great shot. I just lucked into a very good rifle. Plus, its light weight and darn good looking. My advice, buy that Ruger back. Or if you're right handed, check out a Savage. The 700 would be my third choice unless you want to go for tactical accessories. Either way, its a good problem to have.
FQ13
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I believe Savage has left hand models available now. I agree with the M77 as first choice though. If your doing ANY long range shooting, I'd say its worth an extra hundred bucks or so to go with a new / unfired rifle. You dont know what the previous owner did to a used rifle, but if it were really a good shooter would he be getting rid of it? Here lately the used racks at the gun shops around here are filled with rifles within $10 bucks of the same gun on the new rack! Are people REALLY that retarded?!?
I've seen used shotguns on racks that people have been shooting steel shot out of, firing slugs through full choke barrels, you name it. BUYER BEWARE! Looking close at used rifles it's pretty clear most people are to ignorant, or lazy to clean from the chamber end of the gun (you'll see dull edges on threading at the muzzle). Pull the action from the stock before buying to! I was in a store when a guy brought back a pretty Rem. 700 he bought and found all the steel covered by the stock was rusted out like an old Chevy pickup. Lots of rifles make it to the used rack after botched home gunsmithing to. Look for scratches around trigger mechanisms (another 700 I heard a guy complaining about AFTER he'd paid for it).
BUYER BEWARE!