The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: alfsauve on October 25, 2010, 05:10:55 PM
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Okay, I'm thinking of a progressive press this Christmas. But question is which.
Dillion 650 or Hornady LnL AP?
Okay Dillon has the reputation but Hornady is a little less and has some features I like.
Both are a little confusing as to what comes with them and what doesn't. The way I priced it, Dillion would work out to $800 and Hornady to $500 with the same basic options.
The way I read it, the powder checker on both takes up one of the 5 stations, but can the powder measure be used with my expansion die? I need 4 stations for my dies. Re-size, Expansion, Seating and Final sizing. If powder has to be separate then I can't have the powder checker.
And why doesn't Dillion's pistol dies have an expansion die? I haven't found an explanation for why they don't think that's necessary.
Oh, features Hornady has I don't think Dillion has (but you can set me straight).
- Powder feed only if case is present (prevents spills)
- Flexible case retention so case can be removed/replaced at any step
- Cheaper powder checker (though not 'electronic')
Dillion has a plethora of accessories and parts, including part kits to keep you running.
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How many cals. and how much of each you are going to load might help us to help. I only load pistol...no place to shoot rifle so the Dillon 550 is what I have. Have loaded ? thousands on it. Don't have the ceiling height for a 650 or probably the L&L. I don't have the low powder sensor and have never needed it. I have a good light placed so that I can check for powder in the cases and I check the powder hopper often. Dillon has a video for sale covering the 650 or whatever...you might see if anyone on the forum has one to lend. Also get a copy of the "Blue Press" it can be of help. Call Dillon and have them answer any questions. Hornady probably has a CS line also. Cal. change time is a big thing also.
Good Luck,
Richard
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These days I would be looking to get a Conservative press, not a Progressive one. ;D
On the Dillon, the expander is in the powder die.
-Bidah
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I have a Hornady Projector, (Pre Lock N Load) Wish I bought the Dillon 650. I have to "retime" the Hornady a couple times a year, I have a friend who has the 650 with 100,000 + loaded rounds with only a few minor repairs needed and Dillon sent the parts out quickly and for free. It doesn't get any better than that.
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The 650. it only drops powder, if there is a case there.
Also if something breaks dillion will take care of you.
Or be a baller like me and get a 1050 with a KISS bullet feeder. All I have to do is keep the hoppers full and pull the lever. I've been thinking very hard about hooking it up to a motor and just sit back and watch it load. ;D
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My next press will be a Dillion.
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I like my 650. I use it for .357 Sig and .45 ACP. Add the automatic case feeder and it really rocks. Oh, yes be sure you spring for the powder checker.
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How many cals. and how much of each you are going to load might help us to help.
9mm about 1,000 rounds a month. (I might add .40SW and .45ACP down the road, but volume isn't that high right now)
Dillon has a video for sale covering the 650 or whatever.
Also get a copy of the "Blue Press" it can be of help.
Call Dillon and have them answer any questions.
Hornady probably has a CS line also.
Cal. change time is a big thing also.
Too ADD, to watch, but may have to force myself
Have Blue Press.
Calling good idea
Hornady has, from what I read, great CS as does Dillon
Easy caliber change would be nice and would allow using for other, not so prolific, calibers.
Also, there's almost too much info in forums. I started here, with my friends to somewhat limit responses. Would take forever to read every post about Dillon, but I am starting to wade through some of them. Accurate Reloading, THR and others.
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You can probably do your 1000 rounds in an hour and a half or less with the 650....from walking into the reloading room to walking out with your loaded rounds and with no rushing.
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So-o-o-o-o-o-o,
I'm reading up on the Dillion 650 and it says to try the interactive configuration guide. OKAY. I'm game. Select 9mm. Then I get a pop-up window that says:
* XL Powder Die must be selected
* Extra Small Powder Bar must be selected
* Magnum Powder Bar must be selected
* Belted Magnum Powder System must be selected
* Instructional DVD must be selected
* Spare Parts Kit must be selected
* XL650 Casefeed Assembly must be selected
* Powder Check System must be selected
* Optional Roller Handle must be selected
* XL 650 Toolholder must be selected
* One Inch Benchwrench must be selected
* Dillon Die Sets must be selected
* Dillon Case Gages must be selected
* Powder Scale must be selected
* Primer Flip Tray must be selected
* Additional Primer Pickup Tubes must be selected
* Calipers must be selected
* Loading Manual must be selected
* Vibratory Case Cleaner must be selected
* Case/Media Separators must be selected
* Cleaning Media must be selected
* Rapid Polish 290 must be selected
Now if that's not enough to scare you off. What are all these choices? I don't want or need 90% of this stuff, why must I select it?
OH WAIT After typing this far in my post I go back to the Dillion window. Well, it didn't change.......ah....scroll down...there are all the choices. <Back in a moment>
OKAY BACK. Had to go through a bunch of choices to select which of the above options I wanted or didn't want.
Whew.
Configured price before shipping, $770.60 WOW! I'm not sure....let me load another 200 rounds the hard way.
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there is a guy that sells dillon stuff, that cuts thru all the crap and just sells you what you need and what you want.
the name of the web site will come to me, give me a few.
If all you want to do is load pistol ammo, the square deal from dillon is a very good deal. you just must use dillon dies.
edit found it
http://www.brianenos.com/index.html
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I was talking to a Dillon tech when I needed a part, and was asking about the 650, he asked what do you have now, and I said I have 2 550's, his response was I would rather have 2 550's than 1 650, I had one set up for small primer and the other for large, still do, I can do caliber changes in minutes. Yes a little Prep is needed, but it works great for me, 2 550's can be had for about the same price as 1 650, if you load 1 caliber, then the 650 will do you well, but if you load multiple calibers, you might consider my solution.
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We bought the Dillon 650. At the time the two of us were reloading between 1k and 2k per month each. We looked at the 1050, and never considered the 550.
I'd buy the 650 again. It is just plain old good, solid and reliable!
Down side is just like anything reloading or guns - You can spend as much as you want, and you never spend less. We priced it out the way we wanted it and figured by splitting the cost we would get it for half price ... we just bought twice as much, and we smiled the whole time!
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there is a guy that sells dillon stuff.........= brianenos
Got to chuckle,though I'm having trouble recall as I get older.
Seriously, Tab, thanks. a) I hadn't even thought that there were Dillion retailers and b) Yes, Brian has tons of good stuff on his site. I should have thought of checking there.
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there is a guy that sells dillon stuff, that cuts thru all the crap and just sells you what you need and what you want.
the name of the web site will come to me, give me a few.
If all you want to do is load pistol ammo, the square deal from dillon is a very good deal. you just must use dillon dies.
edit found it
http://www.brianenos.com/index.html
Bought my 650 setup from Brian.
Good guy to work with. Let him know just what you need and he will "custom" fill your order...making sure you have all the options you need and none you don't need.
Sometimes you might not get a part that would come standard with an order from Dillon but you don't pay for it either.
You might have to then purchase the part if you expand your capabilities, however.
The 650 has room for 5 dies in the tool head where the 550 and Square Deal only have 4, allowing for more options.
The primer system on the 650 can be removed with with only two hex screws and you can have a large primer system and a small one on hand and swap out as needed.
The "Quick Change" packages save a lot of time but cost a lot of money. They consist of a tool head loaded with the dies of the caliber, including the powder/expander die and a powder measure. You will still need to swap the shell plate.
If you have the case feeder, you may have parts to change there, the biggest time consumer being the case feed plate. However .40 S&W and .45 ACP use the same plate and 9mm and .380 ACP use the same plate. It is not fun to change the plate. You either need a step ladder (or chair) or need to remove the case feeder from the machine. I use a 3 step ladder.
Then you have to consider power charge. You can have the powder measure on the quick change tool head set for one powder and load and can either have another tool head with powder measure set to each of your loads, which gets expensive.
An option I use is to purchase a micrometer adjustment kit from UniqueTek http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231
An easy installation but with some fine fitting to get it set correctly.
Unique offers several items for Dillon presses. One is the CNC machined tool head and another is the Toolhead Clamp Kit.
Don't know if the increased precision advertised for these products would make a real difference...but I'll give it a try some day.
Of interest to reloaders would be the Brass Wizard. Anything that makes brass recovery easier and quicker is golden.
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231
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My only question would be why a 650 over the less expensive 550 or Square Deal B?
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My only question would be why a 650 over the less expensive 550 or Square Deal B?
The SDB can only load pistol and only 14 cal. it uses dyes that only dillon makes. its a great press if all you want to do is load one of those 14 and don't want to spend a bunch of money.
as to why the 650 over the 550. 3 main reasons
1 5 staions vs 4, allows you more opitons.
2 you can get a case feeder.
3 speed.
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In regards to the case wizard. It works pretty good for the first 4 or 5 cases the they start falling out as fast as you can roll them in to it.
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Brian Enos's site clears up a lot of things about the Dillion presses.
He cuts through the fog and lays out what he thinks is necessary, nice-to-have, and optional. For example, the training DVD is only recommended for reloading newbies.
I was leaning away from the powder alarm and think it's just another gadget needing attention. So I'm thinking I'll be happy with 4 stations. And the added advantage of quicker caliber change. To that end it looks like I can get the
550
Strong Mount
Tool holder w/ tools
Maintenance Kit
4 additional small primer tubes
for $545.75 ---- doable.
I'm opting not to get what I view as very expensive case and bullet holders. I think I can make my own for MUCH less than Dillion wants for them. It costs nothing extra to add them later if I'm wrong.
The uniquetek micrometer looks like a must have if changing calibers.
Thanks everyone.
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The only real diffrence in time between the 550 and the 650 is if you need to change primer sizes. Other wise the time is the same.
If there is no primer size change its a simple matter of shell plate, tool head swap and then adjust/check the powder measure.
Honestly They are both really easy to change over( atleast compared to alot of machines and the 1050) so I would not worry about that too much. Besides I would never recomend reloading more then one cal in a day. Way to easy to make a mistake and well you know. More so if you are doing something like 380 and 9 mm.
I would also highly recomend the roller handle.
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As an owner of 2 Dillon progressive presses I would say at this time if I were to invest in another it would be the Hornady Lock-N-Load AP for one very simple, specific reason. The powder measures. If Dillon loaders have a weak link it is in their powder measures. They are the sliding bar type, and are made from die cast Aluminum. I have had the powder measure replaced twice on my Dillon Square Deal because it seized up because fine grained ball powder like H-110 got in between the main housing and the powder bar causing it to bind up. Dillon casts these housings and does not machine them further. This creates very loose tolerances between the powder bar and the housing allowing this to happen.
Hornady on the other hand uses a precision turned, rotating drum and a micrometer adjustable chamber that rotates inside a precision bored housing. The result is a much better fit between the two. The Hornady system also offers much better mechanical advantage in it's operation by the nature of it's design. It rotates instead of slides back and forth. Overall it is a much better system. My Dillon loaders have worked well over the years, but I avoid fine grained ball powders because of the issues I just mentioned.
Also I don't use long grained stick powders because they shear very poorly with the Dillon sliding bar measure. I also like the Hornady twist and lock die bushings as opposed to Dillons sliding tool head. It results in a much stronger set up because you don't have the massive cut out for the large, sliding head. Yes, it takes a bit longer to change out dies, but not having any play in the press because of it is worth it. Strength in a press offers repeatability. That repeatability translates to better dimensional control which means greater accuracy. I'm most likely going to invest in one more loading press down the road, and have it strictly dedicated to 9 MM. That press will be a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP with an automatic case feeder. Bill T.
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Thanks for the insight Bill,
I'm still vacillating on brand. The powder measure being an issue with Dillion. I've figured that I only need 4 stations so price isn't the issue.
It's a post-Christmas purchase so I've still got time to do some more reading.
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Thanks for the insight Bill, I've figured that I only need 4 stations so price isn't the issue.
That was another thing I forgot to mention about the Hornady. It comes standard with 5 stations. In order to have 5 stations on a Dillon you would have to move up in model to the 650, which is more expensive. Most of the time 4 stations will do, but it's nice to have that 5th station. If you don't need it, simply leave it empty. You have to figure a minimum of 4 stations when loading straight walled pistol cases.
1.) Resize, deprime, and reprime.
2.) Bell case mouth and charge powder.
3.) Seat bullet.
4.) Taper crimp, (auto pistol).
On revolver loads you can seat and crimp in the same die, but I like to use a Lee Factory Crimp Die which requires another station. That is where having a 5 station press really pays off. Another little feature I like about the Hornady is all bearing points on the press are fitted with automotive type grease fittings. I have to oil my Dillons from time to time, then put a towel down to catch the excess that drips off. That's always been a pain. Bill T.
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In my researching I came across this web site which has some very good information.
http://ultimatereloader.com/2009/11/02/hornady-lnl-ap-9mm-part-i-hd/ (http://ultimatereloader.com/2009/11/02/hornady-lnl-ap-9mm-part-i-hd/)
They have videos on reloading with the Hornady that are very instructional. What grabbed me was the use of those few little "extras" that any press can use to help.
I'm really sold on 5 station operation and the ease with which the LnL can be configured for different operations. I can convert it to a single or two station press in just a few seconds. I like to tinker so I see how I can easily make low primer warning as well as adapt Hornady's powder checker into a aural system.
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I like to tinker so I see how I can easily make low primer warning as well as adapt Hornady's powder checker into a aural system.
You could most likely buy Dillon's warning systems and simply modify them. I know the primer warning "system" is simply a rod with a cap on the end that activates a buzzer when it gets low enough. Bill T.
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You could most likely buy Dillon's warning systems and simply modify them. I know the primer warning "system" is simply a rod with a cap on the end that activates a buzzer when it gets low enough. Bill T.
One of my thoughts. The Dillon's powder checker I think is usable as is, but is pricey. The low primer warning is so easy to make, I probably have all the parts I need right here.
After I've get the press set up and learn how to use it then I'll see what options I really feel I need. Got to order it before 12/31 though, because Hornady is offering 500 bullets free rebate with the press. H-m-m-m 500 InterBond .338 Caliber 225 Grain Boat Tails are about $275! Maybe half in .264 and half in .338.
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My guess is they will extend that offer. Last year they were offering 1,000 free bullets until 12/31/09. This year they dropped it to 500. With the economy so bad, and a lot of these loaders now in stock at various sporting goods retailers like Cabela's, they will most likely keep the bait in place. A lot of loaders were sold during "Hussein Fever", which has now died out, and will be all but totally dead after the election tomorrow. Bill T.
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As an owner of 2 Dillon progressive presses I would say at this time if I were to invest in another it would be the Hornady Lock-N-Load AP for one very simple, specific reason. The powder measures. If Dillon loaders have a weak link it is in their powder measures. They are the sliding bar type, and are made from die cast Aluminum. I have had the powder measure replaced twice on my Dillon Square Deal because it seized up because fine grained ball powder like H-110 got in between the main housing and the powder bar causing it to bind up. Dillon casts these housings and does not machine them further. This creates very loose tolerances between the powder bar and the housing allowing this to happen.
Hornady on the other hand uses a precision turned, rotating drum and a micrometer adjustable chamber that rotates inside a precision bored housing. The result is a much better fit between the two. The Hornady system also offers much better mechanical advantage in it's operation by the nature of it's design. It rotates instead of slides back and forth. Overall it is a much better system. My Dillon loaders have worked well over the years, but I avoid fine grained ball powders because of the issues I just mentioned.
Also I don't use long grained stick powders because they shear very poorly with the Dillon sliding bar measure. I also like the Hornady twist and lock die bushings as opposed to Dillons sliding tool head. It results in a much stronger set up because you don't have the massive cut out for the large, sliding head. Yes, it takes a bit longer to change out dies, but not having any play in the press because of it is worth it. Strength in a press offers repeatability. That repeatability translates to better dimensional control which means greater accuracy. I'm most likely going to invest in one more loading press down the road, and have it strictly dedicated to 9 MM. That press will be a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP with an automatic case feeder. Bill T.
Bill, Unique Tech offers a powder slide by Arredondo that they claim will eliminate the problem you mention. Might get a little more use out of your Dillon. Check out the machined tool heads and Tool Head Clamp kit that might help repeatability.
It comes with the Micrometer Powder adjustment feature but costs $95.
Here is the link: http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1267
Here is a the claim:
If you use Vectan SP2 or other super fine grained powders, you know how the powder can leak around the powder bar and even jam the Dillon powder bar. The Arredondo Accessories plastic Powder Drop Slide has been proven to cure this problem.
We have arranged with Arredondo Accessories to carry their Powder Drop Slide with our Micrometer Powder Bar Kit preinstalled. You get all of the advantages of the Arredondo Powder Drop Slide PLUS our Micrometer Powder Bar Kit™!
Need super small powder drops? These powder drop slides are customized, exclusively for UniqueTek, to allow even smaller powder drops than the standard Arredondo Powder Drop Slide. They will meter down to 0.07 grians (with Win 231) and they meter very small powder drops more accurately than the Dillon extra-small powder bar. If you are loading small centerfire cartridges like the .32 S&W Long for ISSF Center Fire Pistol and other target competition, this is THE powder bar to use!
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MidwayUSA has the Hornady Lock N Load for $406. Plus the $15 MidwayUSA rebate, plus Hornady's bullet rebate....which isn't so great, but free bullets is free bullets.
My wife likes a bargain (see auctions) and so I placed the order. Didn't get all the accessories, but shell plate, extra primer pickup tubes and powder dump. Should be here next week. Works out perfect as I 500 pieces of brass cleaned and ready to reload.
What sold me is the flexibility of the Lock N Load. I have 300 rounds that are already re-sized, de-primed and expanded. With Hornady' system it is so easy to put in or take out individual dies.
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Alf, I have the Hornady Pro-Jector (Pre LnL) One thing to watch for is the primer feed, it likes to flip primers out and over every once in a while and that can cause problems if you don't keep an eye on it. Also the auto powder drop can stick in the up position from time to time, watch out for that as well. You want to use as smooth a stroke as possible each and every time to keep things consistent. If anything doesn't feel right STOP and see what is causing the problem. Hope this helps you from running into the problems I had with mine.
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The Unique Tech powder bar looks like a better solution to the Dillon powder measure problem. I don't know how well it would hold up over time shearing long grained powders, being plastic and all, but having a micrometer adjustable bar is something no powder measure should be without in today's day and age.
I would like to see Dillon reevaluate and re engineer their entire powder dispensing system on all of their loaders. They are an immensely successful company that offers one of the best products and warranties out there. A new and better powder dispensing system on these loaders would be the one single improvement that would really raise the dependability factor with all of their equipment. It is the one thing that prevents me from investing in a Super 1050 in .223 / 5.56 MM. I'm not going to pay well into 4 digits for a reloader that I right away have to spend another $100.00 on for a powder bar to make it run dependably.
Alf, let us know how the Hornady works out for you, and what if any problems you run into setting it up. It looks like you got a good price on it. Bill T.
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Congrats Alf!
You have covered the toughest part. Now all you need to do is learn it, get it set up and adjusted, and then crank out ammunition.
Ford, Chevy, Dodge ... Each has its good and bad, but they all work. Hope you enjoy the Hornady!
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In my researching I came across this web site which has some very good information.
http://ultimatereloader.com/2009/11/02/hornady-lnl-ap-9mm-part-i-hd/ (http://ultimatereloader.com/2009/11/02/hornady-lnl-ap-9mm-part-i-hd/)
They have videos on reloading with the Hornady that are very instructional. What grabbed me was the use of those few little "extras" that any press can use to help.
I'm really sold on 5 station operation and the ease with which the LnL can be configured for different operations. I can convert it to a single or two station press in just a few seconds. I like to tinker so I see how I can easily make low primer warning as well as adapt Hornady's powder checker into a aural system.
Thanks for the link, Alf. I have been considering a progressive reloader like you for some time. And congrats on the new press, keep us posted on how the 500 rounds went. I'm curious as to how your rounds came out; did everything meet your expectations?
This is the kind of discussion I was hoping we would get when I asked Marshal'ette to create the forum; very helpful and useful info from everyone.
-FA
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I'm curious as to how your rounds came out; did everything meet your expectations?
-FA
Well, it just shipped today from MUSA, so it'll be mid week before it gets here. BUT: Next week is my busiest week of the month and I won't have time to do it any justice. THEN: the wife considers it a Christmas present, I could be looking at New Years before I actually put it into operation.
Standby for full report.
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I don't think women understand.
A present is supposed to give you happiness and enjoyment, not frustration and longing so they can be a "Photo Op" on a particular day.
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I don't think women understand.
A present is supposed to give you happiness and enjoyment, not frustration and longing so they can be a "Photo Op" on a particular day.
I agree....Alf, buy your wife a pair of shoes she has been looking at for some time but tell her that she has to wait till Christmas! Put them in them out where she has to look at them every day but she can't even as much as try them on! You'll be loading before sundown.....
;D