The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: wrc on February 14, 2009, 11:42:13 AM
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1) I know you have to offset down slightly when shooting at a car's front windshield, but do you have to do the same when shooting out from inside a car to a target outside?
2) Also, does the glass deflect the bullet much, that hitting the target may be far more difficult? Considering when shooting from the outside into the vehicle the distance between the glass and the target is small, but the situation is the opposite when shooting a outside target from inside the car. The glass impact is farther from the target and a deflection might cause more issue with hits if the glass does cause deviation.
3) Was there any study or tests done on real world effects on bullet path and penetration on various targets? Like a good many, I would have though the bullet through the front windshield would have caused similar effect as the crowbar through the windshield. If there is some easy reading on the expectations of shooting into or through various things that would be good to know. Like most people are expectations are formed from too many years of T.V.
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Yes.
(good answer?)
The bullet's path is generally deflected towards a 90 degree angle from the far side of the glass surface. If the glass is angled up (as it would be if you were shooting out of a windshield towards the front of the car), the bullet path will be deflected up.
I'm sure that a google search would yield some reading material.
Most of the experience that I have dealing with this is in regard to precision rifle shooting through glass (.223 and .308) and, unless the angles are extreme, the deflection is usually less than people expect. Different types of glass and bullet combinations (thickness, strength, surface area, shape, etc) will cause the effects to vary, of course.
-RJP
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I'm just amazed that you demonstrated shooting through glass from inside a car. There have been other shows that shot into a car. This is a first for broadcast/cable TV!
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Yes you have to shoot low when shooting from in or out a vehicles windshield. All the documentation I have seen says the bullet will be several inches high when exiting and the same when entering. I will say its much easier to shoot in to out the way the safety glass is made.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
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Again, the angle of the glass and the initial impact are going to have an effect on the direction of deflection. There is no hard & fast rule like "through glass goes high/left/right/12 degrees, etc...". This is very much like the discussion we had last month about penetration through drywall... the variable dictate that this is more complicated than most people want it to be.
-RJP
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I believe the box of truth is a fair and unbiased authority on many subjects, including this one.
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Of course you realize it seems a little weird to ask about shooting though car glass. Nonetheless, I have often wondered the same thing, I have heard that a 357 can bouce off a windshield if you shoot it straight on. I believe it, but I don't think it will happen all the time and results will vary quite a bit. If I had to avoid one window in a vehicle (Not that I advocate shooting vehicles) it would be the windshield. Two layers of glass and a safety polymer that holds it all together is not my ideal medium to shoot though.
I don't think that I would try shooting through glass from the inside either.
I have always wondered how much damage you could do to the engine with a rifle. Basically, how many bullets into the block before it just won't run anymore. You know, running engine, lots of bullets, when will it sieze up.
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Good posts! I hope I can get through life without ever having to actually do any of it, but still interesting. I did shoot through a Ford F-150 door with a .40, and that went through like butter.
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I have shot at balloons in a car through the front windshield in a IDPA match. One balloon for driver, one for front passenger and one for back passenger.
From 20-25 feet with a 45 there was very little discernable deflection. If you aimed directly at the balloon it popped.
The thing that amazed me was if you accidently skipped a bullet off of the front hood (aiming low) only God knew where it went. It skipped over the car without striking the window. ???
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I believe the box of truth is a fair and unbiased authority on many subjects, including this one.
2How, I don't know about the BoT in general, but I agree with you on this point... I just confirmed that their site DOES NOT support the statement made in your initial post...... the bullet is not going to always go high... it is likely to follow the rule of moving towards a 90 degree angle from the far surface of the glass (high when firing out of a windshield, low when firing into a car through the windshield... as demonstrated in their tests, via the link you provided).
I was correcting this mis-statement:
.... the bullet will be several inches high when exiting and the same when entering.
Keep in mind that under I.C.E., we always look for the WHY? .... we aren't interested in the "what" alone... so when I see an empirical test as they ran at BoT, there needs to be an follow up question: Why does that happen? Obviously, in this case, it is because the first contact the round has with the glass is going to "pull" the bullet in the direction of the glass, which initiates a tumble, might cause the bullet to start breaking apart and results in a new direction of travel closer to the 90 degrees from the far side surface....
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Long762,
The hood phenomenon is why we recommend going "around" cover whenever possible as opposed to going over... skips off a flat surface pose a serious and sometimes unpredictable threat.
The likely reason for the lack of significant deflection was the proximity of the target to the glass.... distance magnifies the effect of deviation/deflection, but if the balloon is only one foot from the windshield, there won't be much noticeable effect.
Perhaps that was not what you meant to say.... either way, I just wanted to make sure those coming here for accurate info were not mis-directed.
Thanos,
We've done that too (shot up engines).... and the fact is that is really has a lot to more to do with what is struck than what you fire into the car... much like a human body! Is a .50 BMG more likely to disable a vehicle? Of course..... but a 9mm round into the radiator could cause enough damage to stop the car eventually as well..... same for a .22 that cuts an important belt or pierces the transmission fluid radiator present on many vehicles.
-RJP
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2How, I don't know about the BoT in general, but I agree with you on this point... I just confirmed that their site DOES NOT support the statement made in your initial post...... the bullet is not going to always go high... it is likely to follow the rule of moving towards a 90 degree angle from the far surface of the glass (high when firing out of a windshield, low when firing into a car through the windshield... as demonstrated in their tests, via the link you provided).
I was correcting this mis-statement:
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I stand corrected I mis remembered, LOL I knew it was a reversal of travel..
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Thanks man... I figured that it was just an oversight...... but I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page. The link was perfect as it demonstrated what we were discussing!
-RJP
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Great discussion. In my previous life as a federal officer, we were in vehicles a lot. My understanding was that when a bullet hit glass all bets were off as to where it was going. Learned something new. Can't even imagine firing a 357 inside a vehicle even in a firefight unless you absoultely have to, especially with out hearing protection. A friend of mine did it, while practicing fast draw inside a vehicle. He could not hear and had headaches for a few days. Talk about taking yourself out of the fight.
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Tonight before TBD came on, American Guardian was on. It was interesting as they took a well aimed shot on a target from inside a car at a target 3 yards away while shooting through glass. Only a small piece of the jacket even hit the target, and the majority of the bullet wasn't even on the target. Thought was a good way to see what has been talked about on here in action. It also tied with the topic that Rob and Michael were showing about knowing a backstop along with innocents in the line of fire. If you can't control that bullet, how can you avoid hitting innocents?
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I remember shooting thru a windshield of a junk car brought in for our monthly match. The load was 152 gr .45 LSWC at 175 PF back then. I used a single port comp on a 6" oal SS (state of the art) open sights. IPSC target inside. POA head (I believe). POI missed the stearing wheel and impacted A zone clean full cal. hole, range about 5 yds.
Proves nothing because it was only one shot but it surprised us that such a light lead bullet even made it thru!
FWIW
Richard
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Ellis,
That certainly falls in line with the "down going in" part!
Good Thread Guys. Thanks.
-RJP
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FWIW, I've always found any shot through windshield glass to be exceptionally sensitive to bullet weight and configuration. Back in the 1980s we did tests with Israeli 9mm black tip carbine ammo that pretty much acted like the glass wasn't there, while ball shot out of the same guns at the same distance had often unpredictable deflections. .45 ball showed less deflection than 9mm ball.
Besides, I think Rob just likes to see glass break!
Michael B