The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: twyacht on December 06, 2011, 06:47:18 PM
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Yes. and Yes...
I will have Santa bring me one and let my Frankenstein run in all its glory...
I think this caliber will catch on....
As Emeril says....."Let's kick it up a notch"....
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Me thinks I be needen one of those :)
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I like what I've been hearing about it.
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I just got to get an AR first. :( ;) ;D
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I've got to find someplace close and inexpensive that I can shoot rifle at first!
Richard
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I just got to get an AR first. :( ;) ;D
Right there with you. I like my AR. Its a fun toy. BUT, after spending a bunch of money to get irons and a freaking ten dollar sling mounted (and I'm still not there yet)? I will stand up for the late lamented Badgers Milk and say buy the AK. Its going to cost more for mags, but the ammo is cheaper. As far as accuracy? An AK and an M-forgery are both two hundred yard guns, and the thirty round mag is there for a reason. ;) I like my AR, but my advice, not so young Padawan, is to go to Classic Arms and buy a good AK. Bill or TW who own both would be the guys I would listen to, but that's just my take on it. I have zero plans to sell my AR, but if I had it to do over again.....
FQ13
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Yep, it'll catch on! 8)
+1 on wanting his yard. ;D
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Still sounds pretty good.
I noticed he said he tested the 60 rounders from Surefire. Didn't see him use them, but he said they worked with no problems.
That answers the questions we had in another thread about those magazines.
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Love checking out Hickock 45's videos. That guy must be independently wealthy to afford all the toys and that gorgeous backyard range. I know he says that he reloads also.
He used the Surefire Mag in the first few shots.
I agree that I think this will catch on. I actually like what I have read about it compared to the 6.8. Once they start mass producing the ammo, then I will think about it. Until then, I will stick with my AR-15 in 5.56.
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I have a buddy that owns 300 acres in central MO with a three bedroom house and four our five outbuildings that he paid less than 250K for!
You don't have to be wealthy to buy a decent piece of land, the firearms and ammo are a different situation!
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I wonder if the military is looking atthe round. If all they really have to do is swap out barrels, not even uppers, it would be a hell of a cheap way to give the M-16 the added ummph the guys in the sandbox have been asking for. That said I wasn't going to watch the twenty minute tape, so I can't speak to its ballistics down range. Will it reach out accurately to say 300-400 yards? Even if it doesn't it still, with complete uppers, be a cheap way to equip the units like MPs and SF that are kicking in doors.
FQ13
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If demand increases, the price of ammo will decrease (God Willing)...,....Ammo is hovering over .75 cents a rd. and up.. :-\
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14658_14743_14905_17960
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/856618/remington-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-762x35mm-220-grain-subsonic-open-tip-match-otm-box-of-20
although, we have holiday specials....at $15 per 20.....
http://www.defensereview.com/300-aac-blackout-300blk-7-62x35mm-ammo-on-black-friday-pnw-arms-announces-special-offer-on-special-round/
Yet the uppers and barrels can be had for a very reasonable price right now. I posted about it in the Just in time for Christmas thread.
Unless your billt, ::) I don't have to stockpile quite as much .300 ammo as I have 5.56/.223. Just a quick change upper, and a 220gr subsonic thumper, or 147 JHP...which carries more energy than a 5.56 by almost 25%.
Ammo prices need to come down,....although, .223 brass can be reloaded to .300 specs. Hmmmm,..... ;)
When the zombies are in a Buick, having a little extra makes a big difference.
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He is a teacher. I have two stripped lowers sitting around and one of them might become a .300 Blackout and the other a 6.8 spc.
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I don't mean to pee on anyone's wheaties....but I don't quite get all the hype the .300 Blackout is receiving.
for the 125 grain .300 Blackout loading, the velocity is about the same as what you get for a 7.62X39Russian ammo, supposedly.
I have an AR15 in 7.62X39Russian that I will one day chrono its bullets. It has a 16 inch barrel.
I am thinking that if you already have an AK47, instead of blowing your pennies on a whole new AR in .300 Blackout, just get the stamp for a suppressor, a 7.62 one, and put that on your AK. then handload up your 7.62X39Russian ammo with heavy bullets that are subsonic.
I think you will get about the same results but a thousand, maybe even two thousand, left in your pocket.
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I don't mean to pee on anyone's wheaties....but I don't quite get all the hype the .300 Blackout is receiving.
for the 125 grain .300 Blackout loading, the velocity is about the same as what you get for a 7.62X39Russian ammo, supposedly.
I have an AR15 in 7.62X39Russian that I will one day chrono its bullets. It has a 16 inch barrel.
I am thinking that if you already have an AK47, instead of blowing your pennies on a whole new AR in .300 Blackout, just get the stamp for a suppressor, a 7.62 one, and put that on your AK. then handload up your 7.62X39Russian ammo with heavy bullets that are subsonic.
I think you will get about the same results but a thousand, maybe even two thousand, left in your pocket.
Simple, really - all you need to do to get vastly improved performance over a .223 caliber and from a .30 caliber bullet, on a par with the 6.8 REM SPC for the supersonic round, is to swap out a barrel. No new magazines to keep sorted or marked or somehow designated so they don't get mixed up with the 5.56 mags like the 6.8 caliber; no new bolt carrier group; no special lower for a larger-sized round; nothing other than a new barrel, say less than $200.
For the bene's, it merits a look.
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I don't mean to pee on anyone's wheaties....but I don't quite get all the hype the .300 Blackout is receiving.
for the 125 grain .300 Blackout loading, the velocity is about the same as what you get for a 7.62X39Russian ammo, supposedly.
I have an AR15 in 7.62X39Russian that I will one day chrono its bullets. It has a 16 inch barrel.
I am thinking that if you already have an AK47, instead of blowing your pennies on a whole new AR in .300 Blackout, just get the stamp for a suppressor, a 7.62 one, and put that on your AK. then handload up your 7.62X39Russian ammo with heavy bullets that are subsonic.
I think you will get about the same results but a thousand, maybe even two thousand, left in your pocket.
But Hickock was shooting 147 grain loads, and reloader's can load any .308 bullet which presumably would give more range, stability, and energy at longer ranges in heavier weights.
I know .308 bullets are available in 200+ gr weights, how much the heavier loads may beat up the gun I don't know, but unlike the M1/M1A there is no Op Rod to bend.
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I'm looking at the cases trying to find a cheaper way out. Judging by the case OAL, I'm wondering if you couldn't cut off .223 / 5.56 MM cases in a lathe just behind the shoulder. Then simply run them through a .300 Blackout full length resizing die, minus the expander plug. (The case would be too thick for it at this point.) You would then most likely have to ream the case neck, but that's no big deal. After you get several of them to this point, all that would be left is to trim to finished OAL.
If you experimented a bit you could most likely cut them off to within a few thousandths of finish size at the get go, so all that would be required is a couple of cranks on the trimmer. This would be a lot easier than going through the whole necking up deal, and you wouldn't end up with a case that was way too long and still be faced with the trimming issue.
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Simple, really - all you need to do to get vastly improved performance over a .223 caliber and from a .30 caliber bullet, on a par with the 6.8 REM SPC for the supersonic round, is to swap out a barrel. No new magazines to keep sorted or marked or somehow designated so they don't get mixed up with the 5.56 mags like the 6.8 caliber; no new bolt carrier group; no special lower for a larger-sized round; nothing other than a new barrel, say less than $200.
For the bene's, it merits a look.
I am on a MacBook computer, and consequently, my options are limited as far as FREE downloadable ballistics calculators go. Just doing a quick image google search, this is what I came up with:
(http://www.loneadmin.com/images/drop_chart.png)
.300WT is Wilson Tactical.
Here is a chart I found for 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel:
(http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l342/1k_wayne/guns/point%20blank/68-65_trajectory.jpg)
I'm not here to debate the lego blockness of the AR15 platform.
From what I have gathered off the internet the other name for the .300 Blackout is 7.62X35mm. The 7.62X39mmRussian round is....well...the case is 39 milimeters long. So a whole whopping 4 milimeters longer than the .300 Blackout case. Given certain case dimensions or parameters, in my opinion, you are only going to wring out just so much exterior ballistics performance.
All I am saying is if you have an AK or some other platform in 7.62X39Russian...AND....(this is the kicker) you live in one of those free-er states where you are trusted to own suppressors, instead of getting all ga-ga eyed over the .300Blackout and having your money burn a hole through your pocket, you might want to try or to experiment handloading 7.62X39Russian ammo with heavier bullets at subsonic velocities.
Then go out and get you a 7.62 muzzle can. If your project doesn't work, well, you still have the muzzle can, and the tax stamp already then you can go drop your coin on a whole new complete .300 Blackout AR15, a complete .300 Blackout AR upper, or just do a barrel swap on one of your existing AR15 uppers.
The other thing I am saying is, in my opinion, the purpose behind every new caliber (and it's advertising hype) is to sell you new guns, barrels, or other gadgets/doo-dads like suppressors.
The proof is in the pudding...and the pudding is those trajectory charts.
If somebody is selling new .300 Blackout barrels for $200, man...oh....man...could you post up a link?
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But Hickock was shooting 147 grain loads, and reloader's can load any .308 bullet which presumably would give more range, stability, and energy at longer ranges in heavier weights.
I know .308 bullets are available in 200+ gr weights, how much the heavier loads may beat up the gun I don't know, but unlike the M1/M1A there is no Op Rod to bend.
This a bit like painting with too broad of a brush, but given the same caliber, gun and everything, ASSuming you are going to be pushing a heavier bullet, I am thinking that your range isn't always going to increase....your velocity will have to decrease, because that cartridge case and the gun can only withstand so much p.s.i. (or c.u.p.).
Stability is based upon matching up the correct rifle twist rate to the bullet weight....or vice versa.
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If somebody is selling new .300 Blackout barrels for $200, man...oh....man...could you post up a link?
That's the easy part.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=300+aac+blackout+barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=300+aac+blackout+barrel)
The AAC and Noveske barrels are pricy, the CMMG, SI and Stoner are right around the $200 mark I mentioned.
As for the ballistics, I will have to look myself, as I have never chronographed the rounds. Heck, I haven't even shot the Grendel or .300AAC Blackout! ;D
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Note that Tyler's charts have different scales and they make the 300 BLK look very short ranged.
On the second chart, the 300 BLK would be hitting bottom at about 375 yds., still short of the other cartridges on that chart, but not by the overwhelming degree suggest by the first chart.
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Over 1K for an upper? WTF! That is ridiculous!
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/832833/advanced-armament-co-aac-ar-15-pistol-a3-flat-top-upper-assembly-300-aac-blackout-762x35mm-1-in-8-twist-9-barrel-with-kac-urx-iii-modular-free-float-quad-rail-handguard-blackout-flash-hider
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Note that Tyler's charts have different scales and they make the 300 BLK look very short ranged.
On the second chart, the 300 BLK would be hitting bottom at about 375 yds., still short of the other cartridges on that chart, but not by the overwhelming degree suggest by the first chart.
I noticed that and just mentally made the adjustment - it demonstrates the point that the .300BLK is damn close to the 6.8 and Grendel ballistics without requiring a dedicated upper. And it hits the target with a .30 caliber bullet.
My original point was that you get enhanced performance from the .300BLK over the 5.56 which is not charted, as the 7.62x39 is not charted. On top of which, the AK round is reputed to have issues feeding in ARs due to the aggressive necking. I don't own an AK-based AR so I don't know for myself what all the issues are or might be with the AK/AR mix.
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Agreed, Path.
I have a lower and a parts kit with a 5.56 barrel and I sure think I'll try to get a .300 BLK barrel for the assembly.
I have two other rifles that shoot .223/5.56, neither being an AR.
Downside is that I'll have to gear up for reloading another caliber. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Oh well, that's just my own personal hell.
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Note that Tyler's charts have different scales and they make the 300 BLK look very short ranged.
On the second chart, the 300 BLK would be hitting bottom at about 375 yds., still short of the other cartridges on that chart, but not by the overwhelming degree suggest by the first chart.
Not too mention the parameters he used are different: altitude, temperature, zero distance and sight height. At least hide the data before you try to skew the results... ::)
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This a bit like painting with too broad of a brush, but given the same caliber, gun and everything, ASSuming you are going to be pushing a heavier bullet, I am thinking that your range isn't always going to increase....your velocity will have to decrease, because that cartridge case and the gun can only withstand so much p.s.i. (or c.u.p.).
Stability is based upon matching up the correct rifle twist rate to the bullet weight....or vice versa.
My thinking was based on already having an AR in .223/5.56, .300 BLK is a better option than 7.62 X 39 which has a reputation for feed issues as well as possibly needing a new bolt for the larger casing base.
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Note that Tyler's charts have different scales and they make the 300 BLK look very short ranged.
On the second chart, the 300 BLK would be hitting bottom at about 375 yds., still short of the other cartridges on that chart, but not by the overwhelming degree suggest by the first chart.
They are NOT my charts. Just what I could readily find via an image.google.com search.
So if whatever changes there are in scale or atmospheric conditions were NOT of my choosing, because, like I said, I am on a MAC and finding a free downloadable ballistics calculator seems dang near impossible. I would prefer not to try the bootcamp or parallels approach to get a Windows based ballistics program to work.
So there is nothing nefarious going on about the two charts I posted.
I wasn't particularly impressed with the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC ballistics either. Especially all the hype they were getting about 2 years ago.
Hmmmn....maybe I am just anti-hype. ???
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They are NOT my charts. Just what I could readily find via an image.google.com search.
So if whatever changes there are in scale or atmospheric conditions were NOT of my choosing, because, like I said, I am on a MAC and finding a free downloadable ballistics calculator seems dang near impossible. I would prefer not to try the bootcamp or parallels approach to get a Windows based ballistics program to work.
So there is nothing nefarious going on about the two charts I posted.
I wasn't particularly impressed with the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC ballistics either. Especially all the hype they were getting about 2 years ago.
Hmmmn....maybe I am just anti-hype. ???
Did not mean to imply you were up to anything misleading. And I should have said "The charts Tyler posted". But my intent was to be sure folks knew to take the different scale into account. I didn't notice the different conditions and zero.
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No problem-oh.
I have been to Winchester's, Remington's, Federal's, and Hornady's websites looking for what they are offering in .300 Blackout.
No luck, whatsoever.
I was hoping to find a muzzle velocity and barrel length published somewhere.
Arggh....
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I blame Solus for my piling on.... I saw you were on a Mac and thought you used a purchased ballistic calc hence the piling on....
The reason I like the 300 AAC is I am not a fan of the 5.56/ .223 round and would love a 30 calibre in the AR platform since I have more trigger time and training with that platform. There have been other 30 calibre offering with little support for a variety of reasons but the 300 BO seems to have some steam behind it. It doesn't hurt that just the barrel needs to be swapped out either.
The 7.62 x 39 would be ideal if it worked better in the AR platform because of the price of ammo but I think reloading would diminish that point a little and a Dillion 650 is on my Christmas list ;D
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My 7.62X39 AR ran like a top with the two original mags that came with it... With American Eagle made by Federal brass cased ammo.
Maybe you guys can correct me, but the last time I was at a gunshow pricing imported ammo it was running about twenty-five cents a round.
I saved all my brass. I can get bullet heads for 11 cents each. Primers are about 3 cents each. So I have about 11 cents left over ( versus imported steel cased stuff) for gun powder.
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I think what makes the .300 Blackout so appealing is everything remains the same except the barrel. The only problem I see is ammo cost. The 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and most of the other specialty AR-15 rounds haven't come down much in price, if at all. If they can get $30.00 a box, they are going to be slow to lower it.
For this round to work for the average shooter cost wise, they are going to have to make their own brass. That in itself doesn't seem like too much of an undertaking at this point, because .223 / 5.56 MM brass is very cheap. 2,000 rounds of once fired military can be had for around $100.00 if you shop around. Cutting off and forming the cases would go quickly if one were to invest in a small bench lathe, "Shop Smith", etc. Once cut off, everything else can be accomplished with standard reloading equipment. If it isn't loaded to the redline, brass should last quite a while with this round.
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................. because .223 / 5.56 MM brass is very cheap. 2,000 rounds of once fired military can be had for around $100.00 if you shop around. Cutting off and forming the cases would go quickly if one were to invest in a small bench lathe, "Shop Smith", etc. Once cut off, everything else can be accomplished with standard reloading equipment. If it isn't loaded to the redline, brass should last quite a while with this round.
You don't even have to buy brass. Go to the local rifle range and ask all the wanna-be Rambos is you can have their brass. I could bring home three to four hundred rounds each visit easily if I asked.
If someone doesn't already, I imagine there will be a cut-off die soon that allows you to precisely cut the brass to the right length before reforming it.
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why did I just look at that video
it is just like going to the Strippers you can look but don't touch or Bubba will sort you out....
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You don't even have to buy brass. Go to the local rifle range and ask all the wanna-be Rambos is you can have their brass.
I used to do that at my club range, and still do, but it's getting to be slimmer and slimmer pickins. A lot of the mall ninjas have gone to steel cased crap for all of their blasting. I got lucky a few weeks ago and a bunch of cops showed up with their AR Patrol Rifles and proceeded to burn through several hundred rounds. I asked if they would mind if I picked up their brass and they said not at all. As soon as they left I was crawling around like a little rodent grabbing every case I could get my hands on!
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As for the ballistic debate with Tyler,....it's simple..."Bigger Bullets, Make Bigger Holes",....
DESIGN OBJECTIVES
• Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for the AR platform
• Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
• Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
• Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62x39 ballistics
• Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
• Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package
REASONS 7.62x39 wAS NOT CONSIDERED
Extreme cartridge taper
• Reduces reliability of feeding in AR Magazines
• Reduces Magazine capacity
• Cartridge taper induces considerably higher bolt thrust-
exacerbating the AR Bolt's weaknesses
• Requires a larger Bolt Face which reduces Bolt Locking Lug strength-
exacerbating the AR Bolt's weaknesses
Limited projectile selection
• 0.311" diameter not a common option in most modern bullets
At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter.
http://300aacblackout.com/
Remington has the dominant block of ammo, but if it catches on, like I think it will, more manufacturers will "jump in" guaranteed.
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It is all about the marketing.
Everything new is old again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Whisper
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It is all about the marketing.
Everything new is old again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Whisper
And about timing - the time is ripe. And let's not forget it's also about NOT making your round proprietary. Alexander Arms had to learn that lesson the hard way with the Grendel. I would imagine people at SSK are throwing things at the wall right now, yelling - Hey, that's our idea!!!! Too bad, the market has passed you by.
Instead, AAC - a fairly well known and respected outfit - put it out to the public via SAAMI with no strings. So, name company, excellent idea for a round, and it's free.
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at that wiki link above:
Trademark
"Whisper" is a registered trademark of SSK Industries. In order to sidestep this branding (and/or any licensing fees required to use the "Whisper" name legally), other manufacturers tend to use different names for the same cartridge, such as ".300 warrior carbine", ".300 Fireball" or ".300-221", both based on the .221 Fireball parent case.
[edit]See also
Yeah, I have an old edition of the "A,B,C's of Reloading". Inside it as a pretty indepth/good essay on J.D. Jones and the .300 Whisper.
I started reloading in 1994. So I bought that copy of A,B,C's of Reloading in probably like 1995 or 1996.
The other part of marketing is of course attaching your brand to it. Calling it the .300 AAC Blackout was smart....very smart.
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S&W's new M&P 15 AR platform is offering the .300 Whisper that will also shoot the .300 BLK.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_799047_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
That's one big name manufacturer, more will follow,....just like Ruger did with the SR556....
Good for S&W to see a good thing early...
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yeah the:
.300 Whisper
.300 Wilson Tactical
.30 Remington AR
.300 Blackout
7.62X39Russian
.308 Winchester
when suppressed, would be awesome for thinning out the feral hog population, especially at night!
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Come on feral hogs !!!! ;D
When we get enough of them up here the State won't have a choice but to adjust the rules. ;D
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Feral hog hunt sounds like a great time with those calibers... ;D