The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: 2HOW on June 23, 2009, 12:24:01 PM
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American Snipers Go Magnum
June 18, 2009: The U.S. Army has ordered 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for its newly modified M-24 sniper rifles, as well as similar SOCOMs Mk13 models. The new ammo will cost about $1.30 per round. The .300 Winchester magnum will be ordered in minimum lots of 56,160 rounds (117 boxes of 480 rounds each). The entire 38.4 million rounds will last a while.
All this is in response to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.
The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so.
There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.
This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.
The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)
The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.
The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed..
Defense Industry Daily
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Very cool article. Are the M110 available on the civilian market? Not that I could afford one? :-\
FQ13
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The .300 Win. Mag. is a fine cartridge, and it's about time the military switched. The .300 is available in the Remington 700 Police as well as the new Savage Model 110FCP-K. both should make fine 1,000 yard guns set up with good glass and mounts. Bill T.
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http://www.militarytimes.com/multimedia/video/20071026_rc_m110sniperrifle
;D ;D 8) 8)
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I use my Encore Pro hunter in .300 win mag on deer in TX and hogs in FL and it does a hell of a job dropping them.
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I use my Encore Pro hunter in .300 win mag on deer in TX and hogs in FL and it does a hell of a job dropping them.
A .300 Win mag on Tx. Deer? Lord man, they're the size of a great dane! Nice racks mind, but still. I used a shotgun sling to carry mine out. One loop over the front legs, one over the back and over the shoulder they'd go. If I'd managed to stay there I was going to down size the .270 to 7mm.08. The .300 win mag is a great flat shooting roud, but why suffer the recoil for 100 pound deer? (note I hunted in the Hill Country).
FQ13
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"By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. "
Wait. If they replace the barrel and receiver that only leaves the stock and bolt right? Why not just buy a new gun?
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A .300 Win mag on Tx. Deer? Lord man, they're the size of a great dane! Nice racks mind, but still. I used a shotgun sling to carry mine out. One loop over the front legs, one over the back and over the shoulder they'd go. If I'd managed to stay there I was going to down size the .270 to 7mm.08. The .300 win mag is a great flat shooting roud, but why suffer the recoil for 100 pound deer? (note I hunted in the Hill Country).
FQ13
Cause he wants them extra dead. ;D And one of the uncle's SWAT rifles in in .300 Win Mag, at the military's estimated cost, my uncle claims his is four times as expensive. God forbid war goes old school and big, and your snipers use a dedicated round with no supplies to rearm their specialty ammo.
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Cause he wants them extra dead. ;D And one of the uncle's SWAT rifles in in .300 Win Mag, at the military's estimated cost, my uncle claims his is four times as expensive. God forbid war goes old school and big, and your snipers use a dedicated round with no supplies to rearm their specialty ammo.
38.4 MILLION rounds should last them quite a while
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38.4 MILLION rounds should last them quite a while
Not if they're stuck behind lines Battle of the Bulge style, or Battle of Mogadishu, special forces teams stuck in the Afghan mountains or any where that they can't be rearmed with .300 Win Mag but they've got .308 all around them. Just saying that's something I'd consider, but given the military's vast experience with this I'm sure they got it figured out.
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http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/USA-Orders-499M-in-300-Winchester-Magnum-Ammo-05493/ (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/USA-Orders-499M-in-300-Winchester-Magnum-Ammo-05493/)
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Nice video. As the old ad said "Reach out, reach out and touch someone."
It's about time that they listened to the snipers. My nephew is a Ranger sniper. He has been in and out of Afganistan, Iraq and who knows where else about 15 times (I've lost count). He goes over for about six weeks to 3 months at at time, does his job then comes home and trains some more. Then he is off again. He has been in country now for about 3 weeks, we think Afganistan but who knows.
He's been bitchin' about the range of his weapon vs other forces there (British, Canadian & Australian) for a long time now.
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I wonder why the US did not go with the Cheytac 408 or the Barrett 416?
Is the 300mag better than the 338?
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I wonder why the US did not go with the Cheytac 408 or the Barrett 416?
Is the 300mag better than the 338?
In the real world, how many sniper shots are taken beyond 1,000 yards? From muzzle to 1,000 yards, the .300 Win. Mag. is a more than proven cartridge. While the .408 and .416 are indeed fine cartridges, how many can handle them? It's the same deal with law enforcement. After the FBI got all shot up in Miami with revolvers, they made the decision to go with 10MM auto pistols. Many agents weren't up to the task of good marksmanship with the much more powerful round. The result was to download it, which eventually ended up with the introduction of the .40 S&W which is nothing more than a shortened, less powerful 10 MM. A bit like the .38 Special / .357 Magnum concept except in reverse. Ballistic numbers don't mean as much when you factor in the human element. It's better to hit with a .300 than to miss with a .416. Bill T.
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I wonder why the US did not go with the Cheytac 408 or the Barrett 416?
Is the 300mag better than the 338?
No but probably far easier to contract for than the proprietary 416 Barrett, or Cheytac .408. Also the gun itself saves some weight over the 338. Most likely it was a compromise between competing requirements.
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There is also the fact that in Iraq, most snipers are operating a two to three hundred yards providing overwatch for troops in the streets. Afghanstan, with the hills, you might need to reach out, but as Bill said a 1000 meter shot is going to be the exception and the .300 win mag doesn't reguire any heavier a rifle than a .30-06. Not the best cartridge maybe but a darn good compromise. Plus its been proven as a hunting round for decades.
FQ13
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Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate.
That is an outright bold faced lie. More accurate? Sure I'll give them that but on a scale not even worth arguing...
http://www.smithenterprise.com/support05.03.html <--- Does seem to hot against an equal.
In other news...
I am not a member of the military brass so I'm sure the big picture is dictating this to be a smart move, but it does make you scratch your head and wonder why they would spend $4000 on a $7000 rifle and not give them a round like the .338 that can effectively reach out past the .300win???
??? ??? None of this makes sense...
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38.4 MILLION rounds should last them quite a while
it sounds like a lot, but its really not.
if there are 5000 snipers, each firing 100 rounds a month, thats only 6 years worth in ammo.
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No but probably far easier to contract for than the proprietary 416 Barrett, or Cheytac .408. Also the gun itself saves some weight over the 338. Most likely it was a compromise between competing requirements.
+1.
Very good points. Bill T.
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I don't know the article got it right, the whole idea of the .300 WM was to keep it in a 30/06 OAL, and it could be chambered in a standard length action, the M24's to my knowledge are built on standard length actions instead of short actions because the military had already thought of this. Just screw on a new barrel, open up the bolt face or install a new bolt, headspace and go. Should not cost 4,000, if the military armorers build them, material costs for premium parts should be 1500 or so, including an HS precision detachable mag assembly.
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That is an outright bold faced lie. More accurate? Sure I'll give them that but on a scale not even worth arguing...
http://www.smithenterprise.com/support05.03.html <--- Does seem to hot against an equal.
In other news...
I am not a member of the military brass so I'm sure the big picture is dictating this to be a smart move, but it does make you scratch your head and wonder why they would spend $4000 on a $7000 rifle and not give them a round like the .338 that can effectively reach out past the .300win???
??? ??? None of this makes sense...
It would if you had to carry it a few miles along with all your other gear , up and down a few Afghan mountains.
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"And we will build him BIGGER, FASTER, STRONGER than ever before!" The American way!
As I recall, last time I looked at DPMS's site they have a .300Win mag. AR... Always nice to have cartridge commonality between your weapons!