The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on May 14, 2013, 09:58:43 AM
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Report Raises Concern About Glock Handguns
MIAMI (CBS4) – A never before released report by the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office raises questions about the reliability of the Glock semi-automatic handgun used by its deputies.
Obtained by CBS4 News, the confidential sheriff’s department document outlines a series of incidents in which problems with the Glock firing pin caused the gun to malfunction and not fire.
Issued by the department’s armor, or gun expert, the March 13 report is titled simply: Firing Pin Issue. In each case where there was a misfire, the gun was taken apart and the firing pin was found to be cracked or chipped.
The report includes photos of the failed firing pins.
The problems were found primarily in the Glock 40 caliber, but also showed up in the 9 mm. So far all of the incidents occurred during training exercises. There have been no reports of the firing pin failing in the field.
A spokeswoman for the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Department confirmed the agency was working with both Glock officials and representatives of its ammunition supplier to address the problem.
Glock officials refused repeated requests from CBS4 News for comment.
Glock’s relationship to law enforcement is one of the company’s most prized possessions. Today no gun is more identifiable with law enforcement than the Glock. By the company’s own estimate, 65 percent of all police officers in the United States carry a Glock handgun.
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More at link:
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/05/13/report-raises-concern-about-glock-handguns/
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From what I read, the standard side arm for the MD State Trooper is the Glock 22 in .40 cal. Have not heard about any issues with the firing pins here, but have not looked either. Maybe I'll ask around, or perhaps someone closer to the Troopers can comment.
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From what I get from the article, it seems to be an issue with this one SO............. It may be an ammo issue.
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TTAG had a bit more info and an interesting perspective.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/05/foghorn/palm-beach-sheriff-glock-firing-pins-breaking-not-reliable/
(Because it's Destiny,...no really her name is Destiny) ::)
There’s a story developing in south Florida about the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office experiencing a high number of malfunctions in their GLOCK handguns. Specifically, firing pins are cracking and chipping in the handguns, causing failures to fire. The local CBS affiliate has the story . . .
Obtained by CBS4 News, the confidential sheriff’s department document outlines a series of incidents in which problems with the Glock firing pin caused the gun to malfunction and not fire.
Issued by the department’s armor, or gun expert, the March 13 report is titled simply: Firing Pin Issue. In each case where there was a misfire, the gun was taken apart and the firing pin was found to be cracked or chipped.
[...]
A spokesman for Speer Ammunition, the company that provides ammunition to the PBSO, told CBS4 News:
“We are committed to providing our customers with the best ammunition available to meet their needs. We have been working directly and swiftly with the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Department and their firearms manufacturer to determine a solution for their concerns about premature firing pin erosion. We are confident that we’ve jointly addressed their concern.”
It sounds like GLOCK is focusing on the ammunition that the department is using as the culprit, and that seems to make sense. Every incident that the PD’s report lists seems to have been from the last few months, a time when we were at the height of the ammunition shortage and some substandard ammunition was making its way into the supply chain.
The real clue here is that this seems to be an isolated incident. Only one police department is reporting the problem, and even surrounding departments have re-checked their weapons and found no issues. So whatever the problem happens to be, it should be something related to either a unique maintenance method used at that one department or some sketchy ammo purchased there.
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Interesting. I agree that it sounds like a very isolated incedent. And may well be ammo related. Itis important to note that ANY brand name, supposedly reliable gun type can have issues. Bad lot numbers of parts and other issues may influence the reliability of a gun/s. I make my choices based on the history if a particular platform and brand. Hell, My wife bought me an LCP as a backup a while ago and the damn thing refused to feed reliably. Sent itback 3times and still unresolved. I bought a Khar instead.I would recomendan LCP to anyone as they have a good rep. Mine was just ot so good and have not found others to be of poor reliability.
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My Glock only has around 3,000 rounds through it and it's not failed. Those used in competition, even some on the local amateur level, probably have 10k+ and no trend of failure has been reported that I've read. I wonder how many of the SOs guns have that many rounds through them?
Every manufacturer has occasional problems. My anecdote case is S&W got a bad batch of stainless steel from their supplier. Made a batch of cylinders for their 624s out of them before they realized the problem. Some of the guns are still circulation. Fortunately most 624s aren't used much.
I'm with the ammo crowd as primary reason.
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Glocks are not perfect. No machine built by man is. But they're as or more reliable than anything else of it's type. I have always said if I had to go to an unfriendly place, and was allowed just one rifle and pistol, it would be a Glock and an AK-47. If I then died I would have done so with the most reliable rifle and pistol obtainable. Others might argue that, but there is enough truth attached to it that would allow me comfort in my casket.
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From what I read, the standard side arm for the MD State Trooper is the Glock 22 in .40 cal. Have not heard about any issues with the firing pins here, but have not looked either. Maybe I'll ask around, or perhaps someone closer to the Troopers can comment.
MSP is/was contracted with Beretta exclusively, at least through 2008. Line Troppers use the 96D or PX4D. Detectives, supervisors, and Medics have the option of the PX4D or the 9040D.
My wife's G17 is probably at 10K and my G23 is probably closer to 15K and we've replaced a couple springs and the sights but no failures, other than the ones we induced ourselves or wher squarely on the ammo. I had a "factory reload" case seperate and blow out the extractor.
I would also look at the ammo. The bad press the M9s got early on, with slide cracking and locking block failures, were found to be the use of HOT ammo (like +P++). Later locking block failrures were traced to improper intallation in the field. If the locking block isn't nearly perfectly square the torque will shear off the guide on one side.
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Hello,
I'm going to buck the crowd on this one. I'm more skeptical about ammo being the culprit.
There are several possible explanations that don't involve the ammo. One might be a bad batch of firing pins that are showing premature wear because the MIM slurry wasn't right, or they weren't "cured" properly. We've seen this before with Glock (remember the issue with LAPD Glock 21 firing pins, which turned out to be a bad batch?) and other makers (remember the bad batch of extractors on S&W M&Ps that generated a memo from LASD?).
Another possibility here might be premature unlocking. If the slide starts to come out of battery before the firing pin has been fully retracted, then the head of the firing pin might get excessive wear and tear. In fairness, ammo loaded beyond normal specs could cause this problem, but I'm more likely to suspect a spring or other mechanical problem--a gun or maintenance issue. I would be particularly suspicious of the RSA, because Glock has had such a difficulty getting the recipe right for the Gen4 guns, and because agencies are typically lazy about replacing them on a regular schedule. Maybe PBSO needs to look at their maintenance habits, and see if they are replacing these limited-lifespan parts as required?
I know that lots of other agencies are using Glocks without reporting these problems, but let's remember that there are a lot of other agencies using Speer ammo without problems as well, so the gun doesn't get a pass just because nobody else is complaining about it. Again, in fairness, the same goes for the ammo--it doesn't get a pass, either. Everything should be examined here, without prejudice.
Let's not forget that Glock has a long and distinguished history of blaming the ammunition or shooter when it's actually their gun which is at fault (reference the G22 saga, Gen4 RSA issues, etc.). It sounds like they are "on message" in the current case with PBSO, which raises red flags with me and makes me automatically suspicious of the gun. Given my experience with LE, I'm also equally suspicious about PBSO's maintenance practices. Ammo could be the cause, but my money is on the first two possibilities of gun and maintenance.
For the record, I am a big fan of the Glock pistols and rely on one daily, so I'm not just grinding an ax here. I've just been conditioned to be suspicious about messages of "perfection" from Corporate Glock. It's in their DNA to reflexively blame the shooter and the gun anytime there is a problem with one of their pistols, before they even investigate the problem.
V/R
Mike
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What Mike says makes a lot of sense.
Especially about Maintainance .
My first action would be to review the maintenance process , do they do preventive maintenance, or is it more "it ain't broke don't fix it" ?
As was pointed out, other agencies and civilians are using the same combination of guns and ammo with out problem, so what is different about PBSO's specific guns ?
Nothing, only that they belong to PBSO .
I can not comment on bad materials with out at least a picture, but I will say that when I worked at T/CArms we would make small parts, like firing pins in lots of 1000 or more, the AK parts we made (hammer, sear, and trigger for Century ) in lots of 10 - 20 thousand at a time .
What I am getting at is that it is very unlikely the PBSO had an order so large they got a special run of their own firing pins, their firing pins are most likely identical to yours .
Same with the ammo, I doubt Speer needed a special run for them, they just filled the order out of stocks which means that bad ammo also would not be confined to the one S.O.
So something about the routine after the cops get them would seem to be the only variable.
Afterthought.
What do they clean them with ?
Not the brand, the actual chemicals.
How does that react with the material of the Firing pin ?
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Tom, due respect to you and Mike, but you are both forgetting the obvious. Its Palm Beach County Florida. We can FUBAR anything. Only here can an an entire SO screw up the Glock. ;D
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If I'm not mistaken the Palm Beach, Florida Glock incident was PROVEN to be ammunition related. I believe even Speer admitted to the fact.
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Source for this?
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https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GUEA_enUS362US362&q=Speer+ammo+caused+Glock+police+problem
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Thanks, but that's a different incident than the one being discussed here. The one you cited dates to 2008. I don't think the source of the problem in the current incident has been determined yet.
V/R
Mike