The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Ksail101 on July 08, 2011, 10:21:54 AM
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I know all the stuff about shooting with both eyes open and under extreme stress you sort of do it not even trying or knowing. But I am having a big problem and was wondering if maybe I just cant or wont ever be able to.
If I look down the sights of my handgun I have to squint my left eye or close it. If I dont I cant see my sights or target effectively. my sight are doubled as in the rear notch looks like there are two of them and the target is doubled as well. It is very pronounce double vision too. I have to and had to under stress, and my body does it naturally, squint my left eye at the very least to see down the sights.
If I try and focus on front sight, rear sight becomes two, and if I bring my focus back which is bad cause my target gets really in wash my front sight goes double. Either way target is doubled.
I dont think training is ever going to fix this. Anyone else have this issue?
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How is your vision otherwise. Have you had an eye exam recently.
With hand guns I think the general rule is whatever works best for YOU.
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I'm the same way, Ksail. I've tried for years to develop "both eyes open sighting" with a handgun. The only way I can do it is with tape over the lens of my left side of my shooting glasses. I have 20/20 vision and have no problem keeping both eyes open when using a scope. Just can't connect the dots with a handgun.
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Had something similar happen to me recently. Went for a vision test and I told the Dr. that sometimes, after working (playing) at the computer for some time, the words on the screen got blurry and I thought it might be eye strain.
She asked me if it was my eyes crossing and I told her I wasn't aware of it if it was.
Next time it happened, I closed my left eye and it cleared up. I figure that if your eye muscles are getting strained, you eyes might not be able to hold position and you end up seeing double....that is what I was seeing....so maybe your problem is similar?
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I have a problem with binoculars and with red-dot sights.
I can never get Binoc's to merge the image. I always see two no matter how I set them
With red-dots, I see every image on every surface, so I end up seeing the main dot and several smaller ones around it.
No problem with regular open sights or fiber-optic on pistol or rifle.
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Here is my (worth less than .02) advice. Take both hands and focus on a corner in the room where the wall meets the ceiling. Make a frame with your hands, both thumbs touching, palms up and out (classic silly directors frame). With both eyes open, center the corner. Now open and close each eye. You will find that with one eye, the dominant, your center will stay the same. With the other, the weak eye, it will shift. Now, pick up a pistol. Aim it at that corner where the wall meets the ceiling with both eyes open. Close your weak eye. Guess where you are pointing? Your eyes automatically tend to compensate. If you closed your dominant eye, you would seem to be aiming several inches left or right, but you aren't. If you fire, you'll find that you hit where the dominant eye pointed. The dominant eye leads where we place our hands and gun. Try that exercise 5 times and you'll see it works. Just my .02.
FQ13
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It sounds like Ksail may have a cross dominance issue.
It comes up in shotgun game discussions a lot.
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It sounds like Ksail may have a cross dominance issue.
It comes up in shotgun game discussions a lot.
I thought that meant ......sometimes your on top, and other times your the bottom.
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Sorry I got busy at work lastnight and didnt get to reply. I do where glasses for astigmatism. But from what I was told that just means I eyes dont focus correctly do to the the shape of my eyes lens. Ill def try Fights thoughts and see what happens.
It just sucks that I can look down a pistol with both eyes wide open and see anything but double. Maybe over time this will correct. I did not seem to be hampered by this problem at all when I was over seas and its more me focusing on the problem at the range. So I trust myself if something should happen that I can effectively end the problem its just I will either be shooting with one eye open or one squinted.
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I'm right handed and left eye dominant. It makes things a bit trickier, and I occasionally have a similar problem. I would check to see how it is like yours, but China made me leave my guns at home. However, I have practiced and my eyes seem to know to switch when I'm holding a pistol. Good luck with it; I hope you figure something out.
Here is my (worth less than .02) advice. Take both hands and focus on a corner in the room where the wall meets the ceiling. Make a frame with your hands, both thumbs touching, palms up and out (classic silly directors frame). With both eyes open, center the corner. Now open and close each eye. You will find that with one eye, the dominant, your center will stay the same. With the other, the weak eye, it will shift. Now, pick up a pistol. Aim it at that corner where the wall meets the ceiling with both eyes open. Close your weak eye. Guess where you are pointing? Your eyes automatically tend to compensate. If you closed your dominant eye, you would seem to be aiming several inches left or right, but you aren't. If you fire, you'll find that you hit where the dominant eye pointed. The dominant eye leads where we place our hands and gun. Try that exercise 5 times and you'll see it works. Just my .02.
FQ13
I would like to add one more technique to that. Like FQ suggests, find a small object and frame it with both hands extended out in front of your face. Make the hole in your hands just big enough to focus on the object. Slowly bring your hands back towards your face while focusing on the object. The hole will line up with your dominant eye.
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I recently started shooting with both eyes open. I am right eyed and also see two front sights when aiming. I use the right one and ignore the left. I don't look at the rear sight at all. This works quite well up to about 5-6 yard. Groups aren't what you would call tight but they are center of chest and center of head with no problem. after 5-6 yards things start to open up. One thing you have to be aware of is not letting your front sight start to elevate, that is keep the gun level which takes some practice without useing the rear and front sights together.
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I just point at something across the room and alternately close one eye. When my finger jumps, I am using my non-dominant eye.
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Ksail,
What you have is very common, but there is no simple answer. I fought with my eyes, and after I figured out that I really don't have a dominant eye I have learned to work with it. My problem is that my weak eye tries to take over some days. I may be tired or I may not be.
I learned that if my left eye starts taking over, many of the same issues you described, I don't close it completely. I will just squint a little with that eye, and it will straighten out. If I keep practicing that I have found that in competition or in defensive practice my mind takes over and does whatever it needs - friends watching tell me that my eyes will both stay open, one will squint or one will close completely. I don't even know what I'm doing when under the stress of competition or practice.
More to come - I have a call I need to take
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It sounds like you may be cross dominant (as exciting as that may sound, it means you're right handed but your left eye takes priority in sighting) and that you are crossing your eyes when you shift your focal plane to the front sight. If you are shooting for recreational purposes, figure out which is your dominant eye, close the other one, and drive on. If you're a defensive shooter, try Jim Cirillo's Silhouette Point. Cover your sights with tape and stand about 5 yards from a target. Focus on the target (if necessary, write something on it in fat marker that allows you to maintain distant focus) and extend the gun into your line of vision. While maintaining your focus on the target, center the back of the slide on center mass of the target. Practice maintaining your distant focus with both eyes open and your gun should start to look transparent. One eye sees "around" the gun and the other (dominant) eye is aligned behind it. Your brain combines the images into a composite.
Under stress, your pupils naturally dilate to enhance your vision. With the wider pupil aperture, it may be impossible to shift your visual focus to your sights. Your natural inclination will be to look at the threat, so train to do that first. That should also help your vision issues.
Good luck!
Stay safe,
Mike
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Thanks for all the info.
Mr. Janich I will def give that a try. I know that under stress I am just like M58 I just get the job done with out focusing on what my eyes are doing. Most likely bugged out of my head and both Very open. LOL. Its more of a training focusing issue.
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As MJ pointed out, your brain and body do the work when it comes to Eye Dominance, it isn't something you really need to think about at all or "train specially" because of. The gun will be placed in front go the proper eye because it is dominant. It matters for shotgun shooters using beads because the stock is attached to your face and only ONE eye can be properly aligned with the bore axis. Some people get confused about its relevance to pistol shooting and get too worked up over the whole issue.
In regard to the bigger question of One Eye or Two Eyes open, here is the rule of thumb I give students:
If you CAN use your sights with both eyes open (as in you are focused on the front sight and you can be sure it is super-imposed over your target), you can probably take the shot without your sights and you may be wasting time trying to use them. An example is a chest shot at 7'... people don't need their sights to make that shot, but in a range environment it is very easy to do that both sighted and with both eyes open.
If, OTOH, you try to use your sights with both eyes open and when you focus on the front sight, your target turns into two separated target images and you really can't tell where it is THEN you should close an eye and align your sights properly. So, I recommend that sighted fire be done with one eye only to be most efficient.
Coming full circle, as long as your vision is pretty good in both eyes, it really doesn't matter which eye you use.. with the gun at extension you can use either to get proper sight picture/sight alignment.
In our APH Courses, we experiment with all of this and many people are often surprised at how much of a non-issue the eyes really are in plausible defensive shooting situations.
-RJP