The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: j wolf on December 23, 2008, 10:09:39 PM
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IM LOOKING FOR A 9MM 1911 FOR IDPA.I KNOW GO 45ACP.JUST WANT TO SHOT 1911 CHEAPER ANY ADVICE ON A FULL SIZE 5 INCH THANKS IN ADVANCE,OH PRICE UNDER A 1000
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If you want a single-stack most 1911 makers have a 9mm. If you want a high-cap there's the 18-shot Para P18•9. http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=10 MSRP: $1,109.00 but the actual price is about $900. A +2 mag extension gives you 20+1 rounds. 8)
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Kimber and Springfield both have some. I'm looking at a new Kimber Ultra Compact in 9 for one of my CCW guns and to use in IDPA just because of ammo costs (already have a .45 and 38 super).
Richard
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I just checked to see if STI still made double-stack 9mms and they have several. But the MSRP on the USPSA Double Stack is $2,790, a TRUBOR GM is $3,445.57, and even a basic Eagle 5.0 is $1,940.12. A couple other models are over $2,700. They're all way out of my price range.
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Para makes a double stack 9 LDA at a reasonable price and the trigger pull is quite good.
Richard
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Lotsa people make them, and they CAN BE HEARTBREAKERS! As I said on the blog yesterday, it took "two gunsmiths and a sacrificed goat" to get my full-sized Kimber working a few years back. The problem is that the 1911 platform was designed aaround the .45 ACP cartridge, which has plenty of recoil to overcome the "stacking" of tolenences...little of this, little of that, no big with plenty of recoil and the appropriate recoil spring. 9mm doesn't have that much juice, so small issues add up and cause the gun to jam in ways that are fiercely hard to diagnose.
The Kimber Custom Shop got the 9mm running 100% with hot ammo (a pretty common "fix" for 9mm 1911s), but from my standpoint if I wanted a .38 Super, I would have ordered a .38 Super. I sent the gun to Bruce Gray at Gray Guns and asked him to blueprint the gun for me and get to the bottom of the problem. He sent me 3 single-spaced pages of diagnosis that essentially said there were numerous incidences of very slightly out-of-tolerance parts and fittings that wouldn't have mattered one bit with .45 or Super, but if they lined up just right would cause random malfunctions with 9mm white box ball, my standard for testing.
Secondly, magazines can be a big issue — less so with Wilson Combat making 9mm magazines now. The gold standard until Wilson was the magazines on the 9mm Springfield Armory 1911s, which were designed with major input from TGO, Rob Leatham.
I can strongly recommend the Para LTC, a lightweight Commander-sized 1911 9mm coming in (slightly) under a grand. I've shot 3 of them with a grand total of zero problems (except for truncated cone lead-tipped Fiocchi, which is super accurate but apparently will only run in Glocks). I'm half-way planning to shoot the LTC at the Single Stack Classic this year. I'm hoping to beg, borrow or whine my way to one of one-off Para Gun Blogger Event guns...they did an LTC with adjustable sights, fiber optics and a cool sand color...heck of a little gun! I think they made 10 of 'em.
Couple of other choices...the STI Trojan at $1110 is sweet...race-ready. I have one in .40 S&W, and like everything else from my pal Dave Skinner it is big value for the bucks. Here's the big HOWEVER...STI warrants their guns ONLY with STI magazines, and my experience has been that they are NOT kidding! My Trojan is 100% with STI mags and chokes on everything else, including the highly touted CobraMags from Virgil Tripp specifically designed for the STI.
The Loaded Springfield Armory 9mm are also nice and in the same price range, but hard to find. they only do a run of them occasionally. My understanding is the Kimbers are now sorted out as well.
The absolute best 9mm 1911 I have ever handled and shot is an ancient Colt built by the legendary Armand Swenson for Walt Rauch. Now that is a gun!
Michael B
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I have owned and built 3, 9mm 1911's, The para p18 I did not build, but it ran quite well with winchester or remington, 95% with aluminum blazer. My 1st was a Springfield 1991 A1, it ran well but magazines were hard to come by then, about that time Caspian started making high cap frames, and the 1st generation frames had trouble cracking with .38 super, Caspian fixed the problem and sold off the 1st gen frames with no warranty, stamped right on the bottom of the dust shield, I bought a couple of the these at the SHOT SHOW, and put the Springfield top end on them and made them 9mm, they work like a champ, not to mention 19 + 1 capacity. I did a bomar melted rear sight with a fiber optic front sight, it is so mild to shoot. Here is a pic.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1354.jpg)
Next was a Colt .38 super that was brand new but went through a fire, was dented in several places from rounds cooking off, it was one of the new ones that come with plastic triggers and mainspring housings, this plastic melted all through the frame, my brother got it for free and we decided to resurrect it, to get the plastic out, we fired up a pot of fresh cooking oil, and deep fried it, the plastic melted more and came out of the frame. The only dent that was not cosmetic, was in the rails that hold the mainspring housing, I took an old GI housing, heated the frame with a torch at the dent to red hot, and used the old housing as a swage, drove it in and out until a new mainspring housing could be fitted. Got an old Springfield armory barrel with the lugs welded up, and fitted with a new bushing, refitted it with some spare internals that I had and voila, a working pistol, finished it in Duracoat matte black and it actually looks pretty good. I like the springfield barrels because the have the standard .45 acp diameter at the muzzle, adds a little heft and standard barrel bushings work. I'll have to get a pic from the new owner.
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Just ponied up my $200 for entry on Single Stack Classic. I'm gonna go minor and shoot a Para...hopefully the Para version of the LTC. If I can's get the Blogger gun, I'll build one on the LTC I have!!!
Michael B
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HEY MR BANE THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT INFO WHAT AN HONER FOR ME TO HAVE YOU REPLY TO MY THREAD.
WELL THE SA LOADED IS COMING TUE AND CANT WAIT TILL THE NEXT IDPA MATCH AT MARKHAM PARK WITH TSSA HOST CLUB.IM THINKING OF GETTING INTO RELOADING BUT HEARD SOME THINGS LIKE MARKING THE BULLETS SOME HOW TO DRIVE UP THE PRICE AND PUT A END TO THE SHOOTING SPORTS.ALSO SOME TALK ABOUT MAKING UNMARKED BULLETS UNLAWFUL.MAN ALWAYS SOMTHING.ANYWAY LOVE YOUR SHOWS I RECORDED THEM SO I DONT MISS ANY.KEEP UP THE AWSOME WORK AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP.
JEFF
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Go ahead and reload, you will be able to shoot more. Besides, you may WANT a source of undocumented ammo if those things actually happen.
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Tom, a guest and I were just talking about this tonight, if the serialized bullets go into effect, We all swap 10 cartridges apiece per caliber, and then load our guns with at least 10 different signatures, none of them our own, then any shooting will look like a gang shooting, even if done by one person. ;D
COMMENTS??
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Michael, good luck at the SSC ;)
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Just ponied up my $200 for entry on Single Stack Classic. I'm gonna go minor and shoot a Para...hopefully the Para version of the LTC. If I can's get the Blogger gun, I'll build one on the LTC I have!!!
Michael B
Michael,
What about the 18-9? I think you have one of those. What's your impression of it compared to the LTC?
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Tom, a guest and I were just talking about this tonight, if the serialized bullets go into effect, We all swap 10 cartridges apiece per caliber, and then load our guns with at least 10 different signatures, none of them our own, then any shooting will look like a gang shooting, even if done by one person. ;D
COMMENTS??
File the numbers off before loading them.
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Take the barrels, slides, and firing pins from several pistols, and reassemble randomly. The gunpowder may be tagged as well as the bullets and cases being marked, but shuffling your ammo with all your friends will mess that up too. Pull all the bullets from the cases and reload them randomly. There will be tags from random loads of powder, random bullets, and random brass assuming it's left at the scene, and the bullets and brass won't match. The brass will have breech marks from one gun, firing pin impressions from another, and the bullets will have rifling from yet another. Sounds like a big ol' mess for the CSIs.
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Guys, that dirty, lowdown, sneaky, dispicable etc, etc, etc.! I like it!!!!!!!
Richard
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The 18-9 has always been a tank...the double stack 9s never suffered from the various weird quirks of the single stacks. My theory — and I have a theory, generally wrong, incomplete or just stupid, about everything, as you all well know — is that the double stacks evolved out of competition .38 Supers, and competition guns first and foremost have to run all the time.
Michael B
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In the 1911 genre, I would have to agree, but there were several successful double stack 9's before Ipsc was born, highpowers, CZ75, the lowly 59 smith with ramped barrels. Did the ramped barrel makers for 1911's look at what worked before the need arose? Either way, we are all glad they did what they did.
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Buy two Para LTC's, one in 9mm and the other in .45 ACP. Same weight, same sight picture, same operation, same holsters but one is cheaper to shoot and both are light enough to carry all day, every day.
I've a .45 (alloy), looking to supplement with the 9mm this spring. It's a no brainer...
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While not a fan of the 9mm in a handgun, but I like it in my Colt AR Sporter, I remember a friend had a 70 Series Colt Pachmayr Commander that was the bomb. For those to young to remember Frank Pachmayr was not only one of the early great 1911 masters but maybe one of the last true Master Gunsmiths. Now if you can find one of his . . .