The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: DeltaM on October 22, 2012, 10:58:31 AM
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I have a deer hunting friend (doesn't do internet) who has had one of these he bought at Walmart about 8 years ago. A $289.00 on sale gun. Not where I would buy a rifle but not my deal. Anyway, the last two years, maybe even before, he hasn't been able to get the thing to group properly. From sand bag rests at 100 yrds he will have two shots within three inches and then 3 shots scattered making a 5-6 inch group. With a 12X scope. Probably 15 seconds or so between shots. He has changed to a quality scope, no difference. Changed from Winchester to Hornady ammo, (130 gr I think) no difference.
I recommended sending it back to Savage but he doesn't want to miss this years hunting season. Still, if you can't trust your gun, it is hard to get up at 5:00 AM for a missed shot. Most likely a 6 inch group on a deer would work but could lead to a lot of blood trailing. I offered to let him borrow a old .35 Marlin lever action with iron sights. Most all shots would be 100 yrds are less.
Any ideas?
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When he changed the scope out did he check the mount to see if it was tight? I had a rifle do this ant it ended up being the scope mount had loosened up,He could also check to see if the action is tight in the stock,and check foe any pressure on the barrel from the stock,you should be able to slide a one dollar bill between the barrel and stock, it it binds up that could be your problem if all else checks out.
Good Luck
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Check the crown of the barrel for possible dings in the rifling.
One single burr on a land or groove at the tip can wreck the accuracy of a good rifle.
In my own experience, Savage rifles are usually very accurate....even for the low prices. If it is grouping that large of a pattern, it would seem there should be an obvious flaw that could be detected.
What type of stock, and is it free-floated?
A stock pressing on a barrel can have drastic effect on accuracy.
Twist rate of the barrel as it relates to bullet weight can also be a big factor.
What are the cleaning methods and how often is it done. Some rifles after being "deep cleaned" of all the copper fouling will print miserably until a new bed is laid down...while others are just the opposite in manner. I have one rifle that, after a thorough cleaning, takes about ten rounds to get back into grouping well....and then it'll shoot and shoot for seemingly forever before it gets too dirty to group.
There is a possibility that the rifling is just too rough and it may need to be sent back for re-barreling.
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I'm with Mejer
Make sure...
The scope is well mounted.
The scope's reticles aren't loose.
The barrel is free floating with the dollar trick.
The action is secured in the stock.
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If I was a beting man, I would bet on the scope/ mount. Next would be a damaged barrel. (rifling, crown, bent etc.)
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Thanks all.
I'll copy these replies and relay to him. This guy is kind of an adopted son in the sense he doesn't have much. Mows yards for a living, hard worker, his dad left their family at age when my friend had, at 13 had to become a bread winner, three kids, one recently found to be a brittle diabetic. Deer meat is a significant source of food for them. He makes a decent living due to long hours of back breaking work but has to make payments to the doctors and hospital to care for one of his kids. His income puts him out of any assistance, at least until his body gives out.
His old, cheap scope was thought to be the culprit. I traded one of my good scopes and rings to him for yard work. One thing I questioned was the forward ring is up against the flare in the forward end of the scope. His rifle is one of those with the synthetic stock. Personally, I favor the looks of wood just for the cosmetic factor. He did leave his rifle behind the seat of his truck without a case for a few years. I know someone with a lead sled and we will try to fine tune his rifle after deer season.
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One thing on scopes.....the rings can be over tightened and that causes the reticle to do funny things.
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Twist rate of the barrel as it relates to bullet weight can also be a big factor.
What are the cleaning methods and how often is it done. Some rifles after being "deep cleaned" of all the copper fouling will print miserably until a new bed is laid down...while others are just the opposite in manner.
My guess is one of these two.
Too much copper fouling being my main culprit if he bought the same bullet weight.
(and as long as he didn't switch to Barnes bullets - they are LOOOONG for their weight)
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My guess is one of these two.
Too much copper fouling being my main culprit if he bought the same bullet weight.
(and as long as he didn't switch to Barnes bullets - they are LOOOONG for their weight)
For years and years I never paid attention to how really important it was to try and match the right bullet weight and profile to a rifle (if possible, and within reason) if the true potential of the rifle's accuracy was being sought. Even in factory ammo, no two shoot the same, even in the same weight category.....and sometimes even the difference between a 150 and a 165 grain will mean the difference between MOA and MOTCL.
I have a Browning A-Bolt in .308 that just loves 168gr bullets....(particularly Sierra Match Kings) and Varget powder. After a really deep cleaning with copper solvent (I get mine from a local guy that makes his own and sells it to gun stores) it takes about ten rounds to lay down enough copper in the barrel for it to start grouping again. Then, believe it or not, it has went up to 75 rounds before the groups start to open up enough to need cleaning again..... and then it just needs the powder fouling cleaned. The Varget shoots pretty clean.
I will also say that I have used JB Bore clean and Bore Bright in it for years, and so did the original owner whom I got it from.
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My two cents are the sighting system or uneven barrel contact with the forearm stock.
Not only can the rings be too tight, they can be both less than oval and misaligned. If you don't have the tools to verify alignment and to hone the rings for ovality maybe a piece of thin electrician tape or something equivalent may lessen a problem. That said, loose bases are the most common culprit in my mind.
The crown can be dinged like Peg said, but my focus is on the forearm/barrel contact.
Take crisp dollar and slide it down. It should not be impeded except if there is a bolt or, as in the case of a Remington, on the front pressure tab.
I have a bull barrelled Remington 700 in 308 that shot in a spiral as the barrel heated up. From 100 yards the first shot was 6-7 inches off zero at 1 o'clock spiraling in to 3 o'clock 5 inches off 2nd shot then 3rd shot 4" down at 6 O'Clock, and so on 4 more shots until shot 8 or so was in the zero position. You could let the barrel cool and if you timed the shots in the same manner it more or less exactly reproduced the same "group cluster". In afterthought that reproduction of exact grouping patterns for multiple shots should have also been a tip off that I had a shooter lying in wait.
I used a crisp dollar that would slide in the open space between barrel and stock behind the front pressure pad and moved the dollar up and down the barrel and found a few places where the wood was contacting the barrel. Anywhere the dollar was impeded or actually stopped I removed stock material. A dremel tool moved the offending wood out of the way (remember to take time to water seal a wood stock under the barrel) and left the front pressure pad alone. It shoots an honest-to-goodness nickel sized group at 200 yards now...it was a used gun I picked up at Lash's some years ago. Someone let a truly great shooter get away cheap. I still need to put a trigger job on it.
So...if you've tried everything else then take a trick from Remington and put some shims on the front forearm to put a slight, even and constant upward pressure on the barrel. I know of that fixing a couple of long guns.
Trigger pull too. Hadn't mentioned that. Anything over about 3 lbs degrades accuracy for me. At 6-1/2 lbs plus, for me, just forget it 2" groups at 100 yard regardles of everything else.
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If the gun shot good the first 5 years it had to be something that happened, copper fouling, stock screws loosening, scope taken off and put back on wrong, or to tight, something along those lines.
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Too add to what has already been mentioned, when you get it all sorted out and want to check the gun's accuracy try the Remington Core Loct. I worked out at my club's annual Hunter Sight in days and had a number of 270s sight in on my line and all of them shot this well. One guy had bought some of the high dollar Hornday 130 grain stuff and his rifle shot the Core Lokt better, say 1.75" vs 3" groups at 100 yards.
YMMV ;)
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I know this could be more than a little late, but that has never stopped me ;)
Savages are out of the box great shooters. They are one of the things in life that surprise me when it comes to the rule of "you get what you pay for." I have a few Savages, two packages with cheap scopes and one I set up on my own, and everyone of them has shot great since day one.
I would start with fundamental shooting: Shooter and gun in exactly the same location on the bench and sandbags for every shot, hand position exactly the same for every shot, and procedure exactly the same for every shot. I would then forget the three shot group and do a five shot group - I have seen what I thought was a flier on shot two or three, and then the next five shots all printed with the "flier."
Next I would move to the optics, as mentioned earlier, starting with rail, through rings, and ending with the scope itself.
Next would be the muzzle crown for damage.
Finally would be the chamber and bolt - This is a factory issue.
Did I mention starting with a good clean barrel with no fouling or corrosion? Eight year old gun that goes south after six years leads to believe something happened to my above, but maintenance can be the obvious and overlooked item.
Hope it is all working out!
By the way, a gun that prints great on shots one and two will drop that deer, and a five inch group will drop a deer. Not a reason to ignore, but we get worried about one hole groups at a hundred yards when we are shooting at an 8" target at 25 - 50 yards.