The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: Pecos Bill on July 10, 2011, 05:45:28 PM
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I've heard and read a lot of references to the 45 Long Colt. Would someone be so kind as to tell me where I can find information on the 45 Short Colt. I assuming there is a Short Colt because of all the references to the Long Colt. Help me please!
Pecos
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So far as I know, there is no such things as a "short" Colt - nor is there a "long" Colt for that matter. The proper term is .45 Colt. There have been through history numerous .45 caliber rounds in metallic cartridges, and .45 Colt was used to distinguish the cartridge used in Sam's revolvers.
I have no idea why the .45 Colt came to be known as the "long" Colt. Someone here will know, however.
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Here is an interesting read on the subject........
The Long & Short of the .45 Colt
by Jim Taylor
The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Sixguns, page 285)
As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.
The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put away now - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The headstamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ...BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The headstamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.
These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".
I can visualize someone walking into a hardware store around the turn of the last century and asking for a box of .45 Colt's. As the clerk pulls down a box the customer says, "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!" and the name ".45 Long Colt" came down to us as a "user-applied" name, not a factory name.
While I can't prove it, I believe the usage was common since Colt had factory cartridges like the .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .41 Short Colt and the .41 Long Colt.
I pulled one of the .45 shorts apart and weighed and measured it. The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps.
The following week I went out in the hills and called up a nice large coyote and shot him with the .45 short. He ran to within 10 feet of me, responding to the call. I pulled the gun up and shot, hitting him up through the right shoulder and spine, dropping him instantly. The little pointy bullet did not damage the pelt at all. I was able to tan the hide and make a nice looking wall hanging from it.
He was probably the last critter on earth ever killed with a short .45 Colt!
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm
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Thanks David, I had read about the 45 Colt Government some time ago and it slipped my failing mind. That would explain the reference by Venturino that he had seen a 45 Short Colt. I doubt, however, that the people I hear refer to the 45 Long Colt have any idea about the 45 Colt Govt.
Thanks again you did clear up the historical thing.
Pecos
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Thanks David, I had read about the 45 Colt Government some time ago and it slipped my failing mind. That would explain the reference by Venturino that he had seen a 45 Short Colt. I doubt, however, that the people I hear refer to the 45 Long Colt have any idea about the 45 Colt Govt.
Thanks again you did clear up the historical thing.
Pecos
Some 45/70 was marked .45 Government. It's not like you could confuse the 2 in practice, but in writing about it you could.
Where does .45 Auto Rim fit into the mix ? If I recall it's the length of a .45 ACP but with a rim for the WWI issue revolvers.
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My 45-70's are marked 45-70 GOVT.
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45/70 came in 2 distinct cartridges as well, the actual designation included the bullet weight, and there were 2 differant ones issued at the same time, the standard weight for full size rifles and then a lighter bullet weight for carbines.
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45/70 came in 2 distinct cartridges as well, the actual designation included the bullet weight, and there were 2 differant ones issued at the same time, the standard weight for full size rifles and then a lighter bullet weight for carbines.
I am thinking also that they were originally rim fire.
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Some 45/70 was marked .45 Government. It's not like you could confuse the 2 in practice, but in writing about it you could.
Where does .45 Auto Rim fit into the mix ? If I recall it's the length of a .45 ACP but with a rim for the WWI issue revolvers.
There were indeed two loadings for the 45-70. As I recall the difference was in powder charge which was cut to 50 grains from the original 70 in deference to the recoil from the Cavalry carbines.(Remember the failing mind.) That would have been a 45-50-405 instead of 45-70-405. You might be thinking of Winchesters 45-90 which was loaded with a 300 grain bullet. The 45 Gvt. head stamp, I'm told is modern stamping of no historical significance.
As an interesting aside it has been written that if you saw the puff of smoke from a 45-70-405 and were some 300 yds. away you could side step the bullet. Having fired a few at 400 yds. I can believe it.
Tom, you're also correct about the 45 Auto Rim except it wasn't developed till after WW1. When the US entered WW1 there were not enough 1911 pistols available so both S&W and Colt chambered their large revolvers for the 45 ACP and designed the half moon clips so that all the empties could be ejected at once. The 45 Auto Rim was developed with at thicker rim to allow use of the old 1917 revolvers without half moon clips. I think it was some time in the 20's or 30's that someone developed the full moon clip. You can fire 45 ACP in these revolvers with out clips (they will head space correctly) but you have to extract the empties one at a time with your fingers.
Pecos
P.S. The 45-70 was not issued as a rimfire. It was chambered in the Trap Door Springfield which were designed as center fire.
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There were indeed two loadings for the 45-70. As I recall the difference was in powder charge which was cut to 50 grains from the original 70 in deference to the recoil from the Cavalry carbines.(Remember the failing mind.) That would have been a 45-50-405 instead of 45-70-405. You might be thinking of Winchesters 45-90 which was loaded with a 300 grain bullet. The 45 Gvt. head stamp, I'm told is modern stamping of no historical significance.
As an interesting aside it has been written that if you saw the puff of smoke from a 45-70-405 and were some 300 yds. away you could side step the bullet. Having fired a few at 400 yds. I can believe it.
Tom, you're also correct about the 45 Auto Rim except it wasn't developed till after WW1. When the US entered WW1 there were not enough 1911 pistols available so both S&W and Colt chambered their large revolvers for the 45 ACP and designed the half moon clips so that all the empties could be ejected at once. The 45 Auto Rim was developed with at thicker rim to allow use of the old 1917 revolvers without half moon clips. I think it was some time in the 20's or 30's that someone developed the full moon clip. You can fire 45 ACP in these revolvers with out clips (they will head space correctly) but you have to extract the empties one at a time with your fingers.
Pecos
P.S. The 45-70 was not issued as a rimfire. It was chambered in the Trap Door Springfield which were designed as center fire.
I was probably thinking of the 50-70, but I did find a .45-70 rimfire. :) or at least they think it is.
........... The .50-70 used a rimmed, internally primed, straight taper case that measured .565" at its base, .535" at the neck, and was 1.75" long. The COL was 2.25" and it used .515" diameter bullets. The U.S. Frankford Arsenal load for rifle muskets used a 450 grain bullet in front of 70 grains of black powder (.50-70-450). The reduced recoil carbine load used a 430 grain bullet in front of 55 grains of powder (.50-55-430).
This auction is supposedly for "45-70 rimfire or internal primed"?
R F 5 81 45-70 rimfire or internal primed
Ammo For Sale : For Collecting - Single Cartridges - Item# 9343460
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9343460
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There were indeed two loadings for the 45-70. As I recall the difference was in powder charge which was cut to 50 grains from the original 70 in deference to the recoil from the Cavalry carbines.(Remember the failing mind.) That would have been a 45-50-405 instead of 45-70-405. You might be thinking of Winchesters 45-90 which was loaded with a 300 grain bullet. The 45 Gvt. head stamp, I'm told is modern stamping of no historical significance.
As an interesting aside it has been written that if you saw the puff of smoke from a 45-70-405 and were some 300 yds. away you could side step the bullet. Having fired a few at 400 yds. I can believe it.
Tom, you're also correct about the 45 Auto Rim except it wasn't developed till after WW1. When the US entered WW1 there were not enough 1911 pistols available so both S&W and Colt chambered their large revolvers for the 45 ACP and designed the half moon clips so that all the empties could be ejected at once. The 45 Auto Rim was developed with at thicker rim to allow use of the old 1917 revolvers without half moon clips. I think it was some time in the 20's or 30's that someone developed the full moon clip. You can fire 45 ACP in these revolvers with out clips (they will head space correctly) but you have to extract the empties one at a time with your fingers.
Pecos
P.S. The 45-70 was not issued as a rimfire. It was chambered in the Trap Door Springfield which were designed as center fire.
Yes, that was the one I read about, IIRC it was in an article in American Rifleman earlier this year.
Would the .45 Auto rim be usable in other chambers, such as ..45 long Colt or the shorter one the OP was asking about ?
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Would the .45 Auto rim be usable in other chambers, such as ..45 long Colt or the shorter one the OP was asking about ?
Tom, You would have a problem with the rim thickness. The 1917 revolver cylinders were cut to leave space for the ACP rim and the half or full moon clips between the cylinders and the recoil shield. The Auto Rim's rim (say that really fast a half dozen times) is made thick to compensate for the missing clip. It's a great thought but won't happen.
It's interesting that Smith is now chambering some of its j frames for moon clips and shipping them with I think five. Makes a great poor man's speed loader. These, by the way, are in 38 Spl. and I don't think they'll work without the clips. That old space between the cylinder and recoil shield thing.
Pecos
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Tom, You would have a problem with the rim thickness. The 1917 revolver cylinders were cut to leave space for the ACP rim and the half or full moon clips between the cylinders and the recoil shield. The Auto Rim's rim (say that really fast a half dozen times) is made thick to compensate for the missing clip. It's a great thought but won't happen.
It's interesting that Smith is now chambering some of its j frames for moon clips and shipping them with I think five. Makes a great poor man's speed loader. These, by the way, are in 38 Spl. and I don't think they'll work without the clips. That old space between the cylinder and recoil shield thing.
Pecos
I knew they were still chambering (occasionally ) revolvers in .45 ACP and using the clips. I did not know they were doing it with .38's.
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I'm not sure if there ever was a cartridge marked ".45 Short Colt", but the general terminology resulted from the 1870's when the US Cavalry was being issued both Colt Single Action Army and S&W Schofield revolvers. The Colt could chamber and shoot both the .45 Colt cartridge and the shorter .45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge, but the Schofield revolvers could only chamber the shorter round. About this same time, the Army also reduced the powder charge in the .45 Colt cartridge so they were easier to shoot from horseback. Because of the ammunition issue, the Army standardized on the .45 S&W cartridge in both guns to prevent problems that had originally occurred with Schofield-equipped units being issued .45 Colt cartridges. Over time I believe the two cartridges were given the name "Long Colt" and "Short Colt" simply as an easy way for the user to indicate which cartridge they needed. The Army eventually solved the problem when it sold off its Schofield revolvers, but it had a large amount of the shorter Schofield ammunition still on hand and continued to issue it to cavalry units for use.
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When I was growing up in this game I never heard a reference to a "45 Short Colt" It's only been the last 7 or 8 years that I've heard the term. That's why I asked the question. None of my sources can quote a definitive source for this misnomer.
Thanks for all who contributed.
Pecos