The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: madarcher427 on February 25, 2009, 12:24:34 AM
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MY BUDDY IS BUYING AN AR 15 ,HE WANTS SOMETHING THAT HE COULD USE AT CLOSE RANGE & OUT 200YDS ,HE WAS THINKING ABOUT THE EVOTECH (I THINK ITS CALLED )
HES BLIND AS A BAT ITS PRIAMARLIL FOR HUTNING & TARGET BUT JUST IN CASE YOU EVER NEED WHAT DOES EVERYONE RECOMEND WHAT ABOUT THAT t1
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I think a variable power scope is better for hunting than an Eotech.
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I think aimpoint might be a good idea, i think there better. Also i think you shouldnt yell.
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If your friend wants to use the AR primarily for hunting than I agree that a variable power scope would probably be a better choice.
If the AR is primarily for home defense, I would look at either an Aimpoint or an EOTech scope. Make sure he checks out the scopes before he purchases one. Some people with vision issues find the EOTech's difficult to use.
USSA-1
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I would skip the EOTech, and get an aimpoint.
I would be comfortable out to 120 yards or so with that and a 14.5" bbl for deer assuming you are using 5.56 - 75 grain hornady TAP or similar ammo with meplats (sorta like a hollow point), which is the load and length I use. Probably the longest hunting shot your buddy is likely to make anyway. That round is very effective on big hogs, too.
This would allow a superb home defense optic as well as a decent hunting optic. The scope option is a superb hunting optic, but is worthless at home defense range so your buddy is going to be stuck wtih his irons at home.
With an 18"+ bbl I would be comfortable that a humane kill could be made out a little further.
My personal floor is around 1,000 ft/lbs energy for a small So. Texas white taiil. At 100 yards and an 18" bbl, the 75 gr, .223 load is producing 2561 FPS and 1092 Ft/Lbs of energy. That drops to 2344 FPS and 915 Ft/Lbs of energy, so if it was a very very clean shot, I might go out to 200 yards with the 18" bbl with 3x magnifications if the rifle grouped well. I think 175 is a little more realistic max range for this load/bbl length.
120-150 yards is about my limit of good grouping with zero magnification red dot. I can get minute of terrorist groups out to 300 yards, but it's not enough for me to be comfortable with a humane white tail kill in heavy brush. I don't like rattle snakes, and a long walk through the deep brush is not fun.
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Your buddies got bad eyes. Keep in mind scopes that magnify optical images also help "brighten up" the sight picture in low light situations. Maybe look at some of the "shotgun" scopes with variable power like 2X-6X.
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I wear glasses, without them the Eotech looks like a hoop of fire, the Aimpoint is also sparkly, but usable, with the glasses on, the both work fine. I have a Leupold 1.5x5 vx 3 on 1 of my AR's and it works very well, usable even in the house, but not perfect. A scope you can adjust the ocular lens to fit your eyesight in most cases and leave it there.
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I have a Leupold 1.5x5 vx 3 on 1 of my AR's and it works very well, usable even in the house, but not perfect.
That is a really good compromise.
You get the magnification for long range work, and you are still faster up close than you would be with irons.
Just a tad bit slower than a true 1x red dot optic because of the 1.5x magnification, but not much slower. Any optic that is variable, short of a Schmidt and Bender 1x3, is going to be slower than a 1x red rot.
Another random thought: I just picked up a used Colt one-piece mount for a 1” scope on ebay for like $26 (they are on their regularly). You can slap an inexpensive 3-9 x crosshair scope in there for hunting, and put the red dot back on for up-close work.
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That is the same mount I've got the 1.5x5 on, and it returns to zero pretty well. It came with my Colt Hbar upper many moons ago.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm reading some key items:
1. Hunting;
2. 100 to 200 yards;
3. Blind as a bat
Magnification comes to mind.
Variable due to wide range of distances and eye sight limitations.
I am looking in the Midway USA catalog and see several 3 - 10, 3-12, 4 - 12 (wide range of magnification and more than average eyes would need).
In the catalog I also see that most of these are large objectives which would give excellent light transmission (more help for poor eyes).
I would also suggest a mount on the AR that allows to use the iron sights through the scope mounts. I have one of these that has three rails on it - 2-7 on top, a red dot on one side, and I can use iron through the handle mount.
I suggest going to a good dealer that will snap the scopes on a mount and let you test. I do a lot of experimenting at Cabellas, because they have a good selection, different stock configurations, and the inside of the store is large enough to view several ranges (I get them to take out a range finder and mark different mounts around the building).
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I'd head to the store and find what works best for your friend and see if you can possibly find it on Ebay to save some money. I am not plugging for ebay but I have saved a bunch of money picking up items there. A co-worker just got a Eotech for a really great price a couple of months back.
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*snip* I am looking in the Midway USA catalog and see several 3 - 10, 3-12, 4 - 12 (wide range of magnification and more than average eyes would need).
*snip* most of these are large objectives *snip*
You mentioned the two major negatives
1. more magnification than is needed.
2. very large objective lense (heavy/long scope)
A 3-9 w/a 40mm objective lens dwarfs an AR-15 with a 14.5"-16" bbl. It looks very odd and adds a considerble amount of weight and makes the thing quite unwieldy when slung. I'm tolerating it for now, since it is an experiment in scope height and magnification (I had the scope gathering dust and just stuck it on their for kicks).
I'm not sure about the net light transmission, but at 9x a scope with a 40mm objective lens is not as bright and clear as a 3x with a much smaller objective lens (much lighter and shorter optic).
An inherent problem is that the scope is going to ride much higher on the AR than it is on a typical hunting rifle, which makes a slightly heavy scope seem incredibly heavy.
A previous poster recommended a Leupy 1.5 - 5 x 20mm that seems lilke it would be just the ticket for this dual purpose rifle.
An aimpoint with a 3x magnifier would work, as would the Leupy 1 - 3 x 14mm. The smaller Leupy is going to be a little lighter.If price is a problem, I want to say that Burris (or somebody) just came out with a less costly version of a 1-3 power tactical optic.
Just remember that these 1-3 and 1.5-5 variable scopes are not paralax free up close like an aimpoint will be. That means that if you move your head with a scope type optic your point of impact will diverge from your point of aim to a sometimes startling degree depending upon distance to target (Oddly enough this is usually less pronounced at 150 and more pronounced at say 50 yards due to the fact the most scope are preset to be paralax free at 150 yards)
No matter which option you choose you will have 1.5" of offset up close since the optic is that much higher than the bore. So remember to aim a bit higher inside of 30-40 yards.
Ounces add up quickly on these rifles. Find 16 of them and you just dropped a pound of of your kit.
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P220C,
You are correct about more than needed for those ranges on average, but I'm reading that this shooter is not average. Sometimes you need to live with a few extra ounces to be able to see. Also, the added objective size shouldn't be a problem due to the height of the AR handle already acting like high rings.
Poor vision = needs for magnification and light
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P220C,
You are correct about more than needed for those ranges on average, but I'm reading that this shooter is not average. Sometimes you need to live with a few extra ounces to be able to see. Also, the added objective size shouldn't be a problem due to the height of the AR handle already acting like high rings.
Poor vision = needs for magnification and light
I agree with you that the shooter needs good glass.
I just find that a smaller, high quality, low magnification optic can transmit just as much light, and present a great sight picture to a shooter with slight vision problems.
Unless the shooter is nearly blind, he won't need 9x to shoot out to 150 yards, and a 3-9 won't focus in a home defense setting, so that really doesn't pass the test for this particular dual-purpose application.
If the optic is being mounted on a handle and not on a flat top upper, than the problem with large glass just got compounded, because the cheek weld is not as repeatable that high up. I wouldn't want anything higher than an ACOG mounted to a carry handle in a defensive carbine.
Remember the OP wants a dual purpose optic. This has to fill the hunting role, as well as be reasonable fast to acquire a sight picture and just beyond bad breath distance.
We need to help the OP to balance the needs of hunting with his defensive needs. if we lean too far one way or the other the optic becomes mission specific, and looses utility on the other end. A 3-9 x 40mm has no place on a home defense carbine. Not only is it sheavy and slow to pick up a sight picture, but paralax is crazy at close distance if you move your head. (I have moved groups 5" at 25 yards, and not really moved to any crazy degree).
Following is my ranking of up close sight picture acquisition speed. Obviously with enough training any of them can be utilized with good results. From 10 yards, with a slung rifle I can break a small clay target <1.5 sec. The advantage of the red dot is that you can do that over and over again. I'm running irons on my home defense carbine with a surefire duct taped to the foreend, and do not feel that i am at a substantial disadvantage. I have a 3-9x40 sitting in the safe that I would never consider using on my defensive rig. I haven't used the shot timer on the scope inside of 5-10 yards since you can't even get a sight picture at that distance: it won't focus.
Slowest- 3-9 x 40 crosshair
Slower - 3-9x40 illumitated dot
Moderate - Iron sights
Moderate/Fast - 3x or 4x ACOG
Fast - 1.5 - 5 x 20mm
Faster - 1-3 x 14mm
Fastest 1x Aimpoint (EOTech is just as fast, but the reticle on this one annoys me, and the battery life issue is a non-starter for me - the things gotta be on all the time, or it won't be on when you need it. )
All of that said, presently I am working towards setting up a long range AR, and that will probably have some heavy glass sitting on top. That's more of a toy for the 600 yards matches at my club, though and that rifle's "mission" doesn't involve being carried afield, or going to a carbine classes, or rolling around shooting from "urban prone" and what not. So long as a rifle has enough length to get the velocity up to reach out to 600 yards (18-20") I see nothing wrong with someone mounting a nightforce uber scope on that bad boy.
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Sorry Guys,
The only things I read are:
1. Hunting
2. Blind as a Bat
Please stay at a supervised Target Range.
I'm in those woods and I've survived enough people shooting at me on purpose.
I don't need to shot by mistake.