The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Michael Bane on December 29, 2010, 05:43:48 PM
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First reports over on the blog: http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2010/12/ruger-scout-rifle.html (http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2010/12/ruger-scout-rifle.html)
Hopefully video here tomorrow...
GREAT little rifle!
Michael B
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Love it! Price?
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$995 MSRP...we figure a street of $700-800...
mb
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I want to like Scout rifles...I just don't see what the do that a good 308 AR carbine won't, unless they are significantly lighter. Maybe scare the sheep less?
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"Assault rifle" for Bolt gun lovers ;D
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Sorry, I'm just not a bolt guy. Maybe if I had a use for one, but my AR's can do all I need to do.
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In a carbine I'd agree. In a rifle its a different story. If you are looking for serious long rang accuracy, a bolt is the way to go. Most of us however, aren't. That leaves just the simplicity of the bolt, coupled with easy maintainence and its "family friendly" image to argue against say an AR-10. Given that, I'll take the semi, as long as I can get a four round mag so I can hunt with it.
FQ13
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SWEET!!!
Just saw it on an Email from Ruger. I think a front sight/flash suppressor more like the M14 would be nice, but the Mini14 sight/suppressor looks good too.
http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html
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7 lbs to my LR 308 is about 12 lbs
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MUST HAVE!
(and I have an inside line on Ching Slings ;) )
Andy
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VERY NICE!
One with a synthetic stock in S.S. please! :) Pretty, pretty please if it helps!
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I want one! And I wonder when a Shrike Belt Fed conversion kit will be available for it too! ;)
In all seriousness, I am intrigued by it and I like the concept behind it. I think I'll have to give it serious consideration along with the alleged Sig rifle that is setup for 7.62X39 and uses AK mags....
Micheal,
Pay close attention to the detractors' comments as it relates to the AR platform. Perhaps too much has been pushed about the AR platform that everyone now looks at bolt guns they way most look at revolvers- quaint but not really useful in our times. Just a thought there....
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I want one! And I wonder when a Shrike Belt Fed conversion kit will be available for it too! ;)
In all seriousness, I am intrigued by it and I like the concept behind it. I think I'll have to give it serious consideration along with the alleged Sig rifle that is setup for 7.62X39 and uses AK mags....
Micheal,
Pay close attention to the detractors' comments as it relates to the AR platform. Perhaps too much has been pushed about the AR platform that everyone now looks at bolt guns they way most look at revolvers- quaint but not really useful in our times. Just a thought there....
Don't take the pro semi-auto thing too far Fullauto. I like bolts (being left handed, its often a dysfunctional relationship, but I try ;D). Seriously, for accuracy, reliability and just plain aesthetics in a hunting rifle I prefer a bolt for the same reason I prefer a SxS in a hunting shotgun. I'm not at war with the deer/quail, I just want a day in the field. Using an older model gun makes me feel connected to the past traditions of hunting.
But......when shopping on a limited budget and buying a carbine rather than a rifle, a gun geared for 300 yards and under, and particularly one in .308, one has to ask "why not multi-task"? At $900 a throw, I'm damn close to a used M1A1 or a basic DPMS AR-10 at $1100, and that's before considering the price of replacement mags for the ruger. The AR-10, with a 4-5 round mag will work for bambi, and if things get drastic, all I need is a few 20 rounders and I'm in business. Its not that I love the AR platform, its that for that kind of money, why not get the best of both worlds? On the other hand, scout rifles are cool, and I'd buy a LH version in a heartbeat, but only if I could buy both. If I had to choose? Its the AR hands down. :-\
FQ13 who's bolt action is a VERY well loved Ruger M-77 in .270. I love the looks, the quality, the weight, and the accuracy. So I am NOT knocking Ruger bolt actions here. ;)
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Did someone mention BELT FED?
Go here for a Ruger Scout Belt Fed: http://shottist.com/beltfed.html (scroll down)
;)
Andy
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Not everyone "loves" the AR/semi-auto platform for a rifle. It seems, Ruger is marketing this type of rifle for that market, and those that have a broad enough affection for different types of actions.
I love the bolt action; Power, simplicity, reliability, accuracy, and a magazine to boot. .308 great multi-use caliber. For those that have to have an AR/AK platform, this is not for you.
It's a scout rifle. There are some National Parks and Wildlife areas that don't allow semi-auto rifles, or limit the mag. capacity to 5 rds.
Seems this would be a great option. I don't need one, but it is a nice concept.
Belt fed? Hmmmm,...... ::)
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Fullauto said:
Pay close attention to the detractors' comments as it relates to the AR platform. Perhaps too much has been pushed about the AR platform
I am not a AR fan boy. In fact, I "hated" them up to a few years ago until I tried them out. When the short magnum craze came out, I drank the Kool-Aid until I realized they don't do anything better...good cartridges, just not better.
Objectively, though, I'm just looking at the specs and wondering what this rifle does that a good semi doesn't do better.
The Scout concept is made for fighting first, hunting second.
Weight - just under 7 pounds. There are AR10 versions out there that get pretty close to that number.
Magazines - wonderful the Ruger has a 10 rounder in this. A semi still wins.
Accuracy - if all of them are sub-MOA like Mssr. Bane's, this is a selling point. Sub MOA ARs don't grow on trees.
Reliability - yes, a bolt is hiighly reliable. When a fighting semi fails it becomes...a bolt gun.
Sheep scaring - the bolt wins this one.
Don't get me wrong. It's a dandy little gun and would be right at home on a ranch. I will probably be overcome with lust and get one eventually. It just isn't "all that" for me.
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Did someone mention BELT FED?
Go here for a Ruger Scout Belt Fed: http://shottist.com/beltfed.html (scroll down)
;)
Andy
Went to the site and scanned the text; looked at the pictures.
Just can't visualize how it can work. After a round is fires and the slide retracts and the fired case is ejected, somehow, the next round is moved into position....with the link around it.
I will allow that the slide movement could jack the next cartridge into position with some type of gear or lever, but how does the link around the round get ejected as the slide closes? The text said they link is ejected with the spent case. Is that the link of the spent case or the link of the next round? Either there is room for the current link with the round in battery, or somehow the link of a case is ejected before the round is chambered. Just can't visualize it.
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At first blush I was intrigued.
The main thing it has to offer is it's a bolt operated gun with a large capacity magazine. Large capacity in relation to most hunting rifles limited to 3 or 4 rounds. The other item is the forward mounted optics rail. The negatives to me are:
Non M1A1 magazine. (don't buy the whining about 3rd party magazine quality.)
Sling attachments on the bottom, so magazine pokes you in the back.
High price point, I can get any number of name brand, short barreled rifles rifles for less.
It may get market traction because it isn't semi-auto and it has the box magazine. My thinking is if I want high capacity I also want rapid fire. Not for me. Others may really dig it.
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Nice rifle, I like it! The price is good, ($995.00 MSRP), should put a street price in or around the $750.00 + - mark. Much better than the Steyr model which was, and still is very overpriced. This comes in comparable to the Savage Scout model, but better equipped. I just wish they would offer a fully synthetic stock with a full Aluminum Bedding Block, such as those offered by H&S Precision, or Savages new Accustock, which I've had very good luck with on my 110-FCP/K in .300 Win. Mag. Perhaps they will at a later date.
The threaded muzzle is very good for anyone who wants to attach a can, and the rail looks to be stout and strong. With a 5 round magazine this would make a fantastic brush gun for deer, Javelina, and a lot of other game, plus it would be a ball at the range. Extra mags shouldn't be hard to get, or too expensive. It will sell well, which is important in a stressed economy. Looks like Ruger got it right, again! Bill T.
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I Like it. But for my taste I would like 20" barrel . If it had that I would buy one in a instant for my truck gun. It would be a great gun to cover all the bases here in Montana, SD, Varmint, Deer, Elk or Antelope. Topped with a 3-10 scope you would be good out to 500 yards with no problem.
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Fullauto said:
I am not a AR fan boy. In fact, I "hated" them up to a few years ago until I tried them out. When the short magnum craze came out, I drank the Kool-Aid until I realized they don't do anything better...good cartridges, just not better.
Objectively, though, I'm just looking at the specs and wondering what this rifle does that a good semi doesn't do better.
The Scout concept is made for fighting first, hunting second.
Weight - just under 7 pounds. There are AR10 versions out there that get pretty close to that number.
Magazines - wonderful the Ruger has a 10 rounder in this. A semi still wins.
Accuracy - if all of them are sub-MOA like Mssr. Bane's, this is a selling point. Sub MOA ARs don't grow on trees.
Reliability - yes, a bolt is hiighly reliable. When a fighting semi fails it becomes...a bolt gun.
Sheep scaring - the bolt wins this one.
Don't get me wrong. It's a dandy little gun and would be right at home on a ranch. I will probably be overcome with lust and get one eventually. It just isn't "all that" for me.
When a bolt gun does fail it becomes, a club. ::)
Where the Bolt action Carbine length rifle comes into it's own in hunting is in thicker forests like we have on the East coast, Tracking through a northern Spruce ,or second growth forest, or through some of the Southern lowlands a longer rifle is going to be a PITA due to getting hung up in branches and brush. Secondly, your shots will not be at long enough ranges to benefit from a longer barrel. Honestly, unless you have a stand on a farmers field or hunt along Power lines, up here most shots are measured in feet rather than yards.
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2 questions: Will it be available in a left-handed version? Can you use 7.62 NATO rounds in a .308 rifle (is it similar to 5.56 vs. .223)?
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As a lefty, I generally prefer a semi auto, as lefty bolt guns are rare.
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If they do it in a lefty version I'll own one.
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I Like it. But for my taste I would like 20" barrel . If it had that I would buy one in a instant for my truck gun. It would be a great gun to cover all the bases here in Montana, SD, Varmint, Deer, Elk or Antelope. Topped with a 3-10 scope you would be good out to 500 yards with no problem.
A 20" barrel pretty much takes away the scout rifle designation.
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Can you use 7.62 NATO rounds in a .308 rifle (is it similar to 5.56 vs. .223)?
Yes. Both are the same. Bill T.
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When a bolt gun does fail it becomes, a club. ::)
Where the Bolt action Carbine length rifle comes into it's own in hunting is in thicker forests like we have on the East coast, Tracking through a northern Spruce ,or second growth forest, or through some of the Southern lowlands a longer rifle is going to be a PITA due to getting hung up in branches and brush. Secondly, your shots will not be at long enough ranges to benefit from a longer barrel. Honestly, unless you have a stand on a farmers field or hunt along Power lines, up here most shots are measured in feet rather than yards.
Dead on there, Tom.
For hunting, I like a compact rifle.
I posted on another thread a while back about my good friend (and long-range competitor) who, just for giggles, took a spare Remington factory bull barrel in .308 and cut it down to 16.5" and put put it on a stock Remington 700 action. It still averaged MOA accuracy out to 400 yards.
But to add to what you said in your post, he just got a 12 point mount back from the taxidermist last week.....he killed it on his property earlier this season, with the above short rifle, from his deer stand......the shot distance was less than 100'.
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The Scout rifle will be available in a lefty version. No time frame as of now.
MH
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As a lefty, I generally prefer a semi auto, as lefty bolt guns are rare.
Savage makes several lefty versions of their line of rifles.
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Yes. Both are the same. Bill T.
Thanks.
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Yes. Both are the same. Bill T.
No they are not. There are small differences in case dimensions, so according to SAAMI using 7.62 in a .308 generates excessive pressure and is definitely not recommended.
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I so wanted to like this, being a big fan of the scout concept, but where is the bipod? Why no mention of the sling mount points?
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MB does talk some about the 2 sling swivel mounts in his blog.
http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2010/12/let-there-be-florescent-light.html
Personally, I think putting a bipod on such a short rifle is dumb, it pretty much defeats the whole purpose of making it shorter and lighter.
For that matter I think only benchrest/varmint shooters and mall ninja's use bipods because of the way it adds excess weight that only helps in one position. Of course I may be unduly influenced by all the military snipers I have seen who simply learned proper sling use and gained the ability to actually hold up their rifle.
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No they are not. There are small differences in case dimensions, so according to SAAMI using 7.62 in a .308 generates excessive pressure and is definitely not recommended.
This argument pops up from time to time, along with the, "Whatever you do don't shoot 5.56 MM in a .223 gun!" My take is I'll pay attention to it, if and when I see or hear any evidence of a gun damaged from doing it. You can search cyberspace and find countless arguments about this, with zero evidence of any damage produced from the practice of doing it, ever.
For what it's worth, the differences in case dimensions are in the thickness, not in the chamber to case sizes. This is both in the .223 / 5.56 MM as well as .308 / 7.62 X 51 MM. Bill T.
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I've only owned 1 .308, the others have been 7.62 any way, then it doesn't matter.
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This is kind of a long post, but I feel I owe Ruger and MB a few considered words. Having read the reviews and watched the vids I will say this. This would have been the coolest kid on the block in 1914. An army equipped with these and say five mags per soldier would have had a serious advantage. Now? At basically a grand? I just don't see it. I can get the same price point in a semi auto. Hell, if I go Saiga .308, I can cut the price in half. Not as nice, not even in the same league, but the difference between $500 and $1000 is enough to cause most of us to make compromises, given that we have to put a piece of glass on the thing and buy ammo to feed it. :-\
That said, I would love to own one in LH model if I had the money. But it would be a luxury purchase. I still don't see what this has over an M1A1 or an AR-10. It just doesn't compute. Sell it at $600 and it makes sense. That lets you buy the scope or optic. $995 (otherwise known as $1000 ::)), not so much. I can get a regular M-77 at $600 and it isn't much heavier. Plus there's no expensive mag to lose.
Sorry Ruger, I love ya', but this? Make it cheaper or give me a .308 version of the Mini-14 with better accuracy. I'm asking only for pie plates at 300-400 yards, nothing to set the world on fire. I know you can do it. :-\
FQ13
PS This is not a slam. I really want to like this rifle. But the combination of the price and semi-auto alternatives which will perform the tactical applications better, and the hunting applications just as well makes it hard. This isn't even considering the option of slapping an eotech on a lever action. ;)
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"Assault rifle" for Bolt gun lovers ;D
or for those that can not get S/A's 8)
kind of reminds me of a Lee-Enfield No 5 Mk I, aka Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine
(http://www.corpsecandle.com/WWIIRolemaster/Lee%20Enfield%20No5%20Mk1%201.jpg)
now will they let them in to Australia with that nasty flash suppressor and that Massive 10 round mag.
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Sell it at $600 and it makes sense. That lets you buy the scope or optic. $995 (otherwise known as $1000 ::)), not so much. I can get a regular M-77 at $600 and it isn't much heavier.
The street price of this gun will be nowhere near MSRP. Mini 14's retail for close to that, and sell for much less. Same with most all of the Savage guns. I think when the dust settles, this gun will be sitting on a dealers rack next to a Savage 10-FP for close to the same price. The fact is high capacity, box magazine fed bolt actions are becoming quite popular. With a hinged floorplate you are limited to 3 or 4 rounds. With an extra magazine accompanying this rifle you have a 20 round capacity. Not to mention they can be reloaded much faster. Losing a magazine isn't worth considering simply because the Lee Enfield has proven itself in wartime very successfully. It has a 10 round detachable box magazine. How many soldiers who carried it were killed because they lost their magazine in battle?
The fact of the matter is "Sniper" type bolt action rifles are selling very well as proven by the Savage 10-FP series, and now the new 10 & 110 FCP-K series. The same can be said about the newer more radical 10-BAS-K Models, as well as similar rifles avaliable from Steyr, McMillan, and Lapua. Hell, even Weatherby is seeing and understanding this market, and is now offering tactical versions of their rifles. This gives Ruger a similar platform to compete in.
I have a Springfield Armory SOCOM 16, and this rifle really cannot be compared to it. Yes, they are the same caliber and overall length, but this rifle is, (or at least should be), capable of far better accuracy and shot placement, especially at 200 yards and beyond. The SOCOM 16 is more of a close quarters battle rifle, not really designed for any type of surgical shooting. Not to mention it sells for close to triple of what this gun will end up going for. The SOCOM II sells for even more. If Ruger has a problem selling this weapon it will be do to over saturation of the market with these type of rifles, and or the horrible economy. The latter is hurting every gun maker at present. Ruger has a big following and this rifle will no doubt attract it, along with most anyone in the gun game who is looking for a .30 caliber "Sniper" type rifle in a compact format. Bill T.
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I havent seen any give aways recently........ ;D
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Ruger's Scout Rifle reminds me of my Spanish FR-8, (16" short barrel, chambered in 7.62 cal.) that I bought in 1992. The bolt is straight and I only have iron sights, but I saved myself about $800 or more compared to what it would cost me to have the Ruger and a decent scope.
It is a nice looking rifle and I am sure that it is a fun and accurate shooter too. Oh well, another gun to add to the wish list. :(
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$.02 interjection into the discussion:
I'd like to remind the group that not all states allow hunting with a semi-automatic rifle. In those states an AR is not the answer for someone looking for a one-rifle for everything answer. If I hunted this would definitely be high up on the list, especially when it becomes available in a left-hand version.
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Losing a magazine isn't worth considering simply because the Lee Enfield has proven itself in wartime very successfully. It has a 10 round detachable box magazine. How many soldiers who carried it were killed because they lost their magazine in battle?
Who's to say? Perhaps the soldiers who did lose their magazines were unable to report it to anyone but St. Peter. ;) Seriously, lets not forget the Lee-Enfield magazine was never intended to be removed from the rifle on a regular basis. L-E magazines were always loaded from stripper clips. Even at that the British soldier was issued a spare that was kept in his pack.* That's a big difference from this Ruger sans clip guide and designed from the start to reload from fresh magazines.
I've read a fair number of first person British accounts from both world wars. Excluding A Rifleman Went to War (written by a Yank gun enthusiast serving with the Canadians) and With British Snipers to the Reich, the Tommies I've read didn't make much mention of personal arms. Even the latter was somewhat bereft of weapon details compared to similar works by Americans. Couple this with the facts that in wartime there will always be plenty of spares from your logistics train and fallen comrades, I wouldn't take much faith in the fact we don't have a lot of reports of lost L-E magazines.
Contrast this with a lone individual trying to survive some sort of calamity that's forced him into using his Ruger Scout for defense. He can't rely on any kind of a logistics train. What are the chances he'd come across someone with a compatible Accuracy International magazine, let alone be willing to part with it?
* British Enfield Rifles, vol. 2 by Charles Stratton, North Cape Publications, p. 53
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I'm just not seeing the "losing" of a detachable magazine as a deterrent to this, or any other magazine fed rifle or pistol, of which there are hundreds of different models. No one with any type of survival skill or knowledge would use one without an ample supply of extra magazines. I do not own a single magazine fed rifle or pistol that I don't have several spare magazines for, nor would I. If you can afford the weapon, optics, mounts, along with any and all other gear necessary to support it, a few bucks more for a couple of mags is a worthwhile investment. In short the added ammunition capacity is well worth the small "risk" of losing a magazine. Reward far outweighs risk. At least in this case. The AR-15 / M-16, M-9 as well as the M-14 are all magazine fed weapons. The "losing" of magazines is not, and has never been considered an issue. In combat, or in civilian use. It shouldn't be one in the case of this weapon either. Bill T.
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The majority of failures with firearms using "detachable magazines" stem from the magazine its self, usually dents in the body or damage to the feed lips.
This is not a big deal to a military organization with its huge logistic tail, or even to the civilian shooter who can simply go to the store and buy more.
What about when those options are not available ? If the supply chain has for what ever reason, broken down a fire arm with fewer parts offers less opportunity for something to go wrong. It doesn't even have to be something as drastic as "End of the world". You could be to far from a store, it could be a holiday week end when stores are closed.
Not necessarily "life threatening, but still darned inconvenient.
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No they are not. There are small differences in case dimensions, so according to SAAMI using 7.62 in a .308 generates excessive pressure and is definitely not recommended.
Other way around...7.62 NATO generates less pressure than .308WIN, so you can use 7.62 NATO in .308WIN rifles with no worries.
I like the Ruger Scout....and I'll probably save my pennies to get one. I prefer a bolt rifle over a semi-auto for a "survival" situation, and the Scout's features make it a lot more practical and reliable than the semi.
I hope Ruger makes a 77/22 verson of this as a "Training Scout" rifle as well....
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Pertaining to the .308/7.72 NATO thing, some might find this PDF interesting info:
http://home.comcast.net/~ehorton/The%20Truth%20About%20308%20Win%20and%20762%20NATO.pdf
Conclusions
The pressure difference between the two rounds is insignificant, the real problem is commercial
ammunition has thinner cases that were not designed to shoot in military chambers BUT we do it all the
time anyway and this why you see more case head separations on commercial cases fired in military
chambers.
The M118 special long range round is loaded to 52,000 CUP (all other U.S. 7.62mm are 50,000 CUP)
which would be equal to the pressure levels of commercial ammunition, this means actually there is no
pressure difference between the .308 and 7.62 NATO for the M118 cartridge.
No accurate conversion between copper crusher and true pressure exists, but approximations can be
made. In all the conversions outlined above, pressures are in thousands of PSI (KPSI). Expect errors of
several KPSI, or about 15%, with such formulas. Many factors determine how much the indicated
pressure reading from a crusher misses the true pressure, and the error varies among cartridges and
even among different loads for one cartridge. The conversions might be accurate enough for many
practical purposes.
So, to sum everything up, the pressure difference between the 308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm
NATO is less than 2,000 PSI which is statistically insignificant. The same pressure variation may be
achieved by firing any rifle on a hot day and on a cold day or by changing brands of primers. It is safe to shoot 308 Winchester in your 7.62x51 rifles (even the Ishapores) and vice versa. Handloaders should be
aware that they should reduce the amount of powder when using military 7.62 NATO cases by about 10-
12% and work up to safe pressures with corresponding velocities.
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So this discussion really centers around three things:
*Cost of Ruger Scout vs. AR - 10
*Magazine capacity
*Bolt vs. Semi Auto
I went to three sites (RRA, Stag, DPMS) and two of them had any AR 10 offerings for a out-of-the-box rifle (RRA and DPMS). The cheapest I found was $1300 and $1169. The MSRP on the Ruger is $995. Next, is the issue about magazine capacity.
I have to ask what battle are you planning to fight? In my limited opinion, 5 shots should do the trick for most of the situations in which you and I would find ourselves; Ruger gives us 10.
And this is where I have to place some of the blame on the gun media that has pushed, and pushed, and pushed the AR platform to be the "utility rifle" for us all. And one of the things they kept harping on was.....magazine capacity. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having more bullets, but let's keep things in perspective. The AR was designed for what? Combat- as in military combat. As used in the civilian world it really is a tool that gets the job done where a "lesser" tool will suffice as well. It's like using a 48" walk-behind mower (I have one) to mow your 1/10 acre postage stamp lot.
Finally, the issue about semi auto vs. bolt action. It's really not an issue. If you can shoot, the platform doesn't matter.
Have we finally beat this horse slap to death?
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"Handloaders should be aware that they should reduce the amount of powder when using military 7.62 NATO cases by about 10-12% and work up to safe pressures with corresponding velocities."
This is the biggest difference shooters who handload should be aware of. For everyone else who shoots factory ammunition there shouldn't be any concern. Bill T.
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This is not a big deal to a military organization with its huge logistic tail, or even to the civilian shooter who can simply go to the store and buy more.
What about when those options are not available ?
It all simply comes down to preparedness. The key is to buy more before you NEED them. You either are, or you aren't prepared, it is just that simple regardless of one's needs. Money, food, water, clothing, guns, ammunition, or magazines. Any part of any firearm can break. For example, it is considered good preparedness to keep a spare, complete bolt carrier group on the ready for most any AR-15 rifle, just in case. This will allow the shooter enough parts in the event of a common failure. It is also considered good preparedness to have a large enough supply of ammunition on hand. You cannot depend on anyone to have, give, or sell you anything. Magazines, extractors, firing pins, ammunition, or lubrication. You take into consideration what breaks, along with how often. And the likelihood of any such event happening. You then prepare accordingly. Magazines are included in this loop of supply. If they are not it is the fault of the individual, not the firearm, or what it may or may not require. Bill T.
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"Scout" rifle implies use on the move, Like possibly while "Scouting". The primary use envisioned by previous posters has been hunting, which generally entails a certain amount of movement, at least from vehicle to stand, if not something more. Bearing in mind that most states limit hunting rifles to 5 rounds or less,in which case the magazines are useless, just how much crap do you want to be carrying ?
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"Scout" rifle implies use on the move, Like possibly while "Scouting". The primary use envisioned by previous posters has been hunting, which generally entails a certain amount of movement, at least from vehicle to stand, if not something more. Bearing in mind that most states limit hunting rifles to 5 rounds or less,in which case the magazines are useless, just how much crap do you want to be carrying ?
If you concentrate on what you are carrying instead of how much, you most likely won't lose things like magazines and other essential equipment. Bill T.
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If you concentrate on what you are carrying instead of how much, you most likely won't lose things like magazines and other essential equipment. Bill T.
Which, since I never mentioned loss in my post, this addresses the "wear and tear" aspect how ?
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I think we need to be on the same page here. Full Auto tried summarizing, but didn't go far enough.
WHAT IS A SCOUT RIFLE?
cribbed from Wikipedia:
An unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3 kg (6.6 lbs); with 3.5 kilograms (7.7 lbs) the maximum acceptable.
An overall length of 1 meter (39.4 in.) or less.
A forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification, typically 2-3 diameters. This preserves the shooter's peripheral vision, keeps the ejection port open to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and eliminates any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory.
Ghost ring auxiliary iron sights: a rear sight consisting of a receiver-mounted large-aperture thin ring, and typically a square post front sight.
A "Ching" or "CW" sling. Against common practice, Cooper advocated the use of a sling as a shooting aid. The Ching sling offers the convenience of a carrying strap and the steadiness of a target shooter's sling with the speed of a biathlete's sling. (The CW sling is a simpler version of a Ching sling, consisting of a single strap.)
A standard chambering of .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO or 7mm-08 Remington for locales that forbid civilian ownership of cartridges in chamberings adopted by military forces or for its "slightly better ballistics."[2] As Cooper wrote, "A true Scout comes in .308 or 7mm-08."[3] The .243 Winchester is an alternative for young, small-framed, or recoil-shy people, but needs a 22" barrel. Cooper also commissioned "Lion Scout," chambered for the .350 Remington Magnum cartridge.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).
We can argue these specs, and in the videos for the Ruger they state there were never any final stats. So, lets go with these.
so, if we agree with this definition, lets look at other rifles mentioned:
Most Semi Autos fail the weight issue. For example:
M1A- Looking at the SA website, the lightest I could find is 8.8lbs for the SOCOM. FAIL.
SKS- 8lbs 8oz
LWRC REPR 16"- 8.4lbs
AK47-Is it light enough? Mabye. Looking around, there seem to be some lightweight AKs. Mine is 7lbs 8oz. Too heavy.
So, lets look at the Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle:
XWeight: 7lbs
√Overall Length: 38.00"
√Forward mount for scope
√Ghost Ring Backup Sights
XChing Sling (easily fixed)
√Standard Chambering 7.62x51mm
?Accuracy 1MOA (I assume a √ here)
I assume with a lighter (plastic) stock it has all the attributes.
What rifle fulfills all of them?
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I guess the big question is whether or not you believe the concept is obsolete. Lets assume costs are equal. To me you have to ask, do you want a bolt, a semi auto or a lever? Lets also presume that we are looking at a sub three hundred yard gun. I'm just not sure that with modern semis, particularly the AK, AR-10 or M1A that the bolt has any real advantage in a tactical role (this excludes hunting applications where I prefer it). It also ignores levers with modern ammo like Leverloution rounds, or box mag levers. I really want to like this gun, but I just don't see it as the one I'd want if I could only have one. I'd much prefer the M1A or the AK, preferably the M1A chopped down and turned into a scout. Thats a cheap and easy mod.
FQ13
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FQ,
the advantages of the bolt gun are weight, simplicity, size and accuracy.
disadvantages are rest: capacity, reload speed, shooting speed.
But, yes, you're right, the most basic question is 'Is the Scout Concept valid today?'. Or was it ever?
I've never picked my One Rifle. I've not shot any rifle enough to form an opinion as to reliability, weight and accuracy. Heck, it might be a shotgun. Would the One Rifle be the same as my Go To Gun, my TEOWAEKI Gun or my Bug Out Gun? As an urbanite, if forced to evacuate, keeping the rifle concealed is of utmost importance. I might choose a folding stock AK as it fits in a backpack or messenger bag. If I were to Bug Out into the mountains, I might choose a M1A, although I am partial to pistol grips. For the end of the world, I'd choose an AR15 as I'd expect it to be easier to find parts than anything else.
I'd choose a 1911 for my One Pistol, assuming I didn't have to conceal it. It fits my hand well and I can shoot it well (OK, I suck as an USPSA shooter, but I'm still happy with my performance)
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I can't figure out what this rifle would be good for?
No really, I can't. you could hunt with it, but in many states they limit the round count, even if they didn't why do you want to carry all that extra wieght in the gun? Lets not forget that ruger mags are always $$$$$$. On the range, there are plenty of better options out there. That basicly leaves SHTF, well guess what? there are many other options out there that are alot cheaper, and have proven themselfs for a long period of time.
can anyone please tell me what this gun would be good for?
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Which, since I never mentioned loss in my post, this addresses the "wear and tear" aspect how ?
My post was misdirected at you Tombo, sorry. It's just It confuses me to hear people complaining about losing a detachable magazine with this rifle as some type of detriment to owning it. Most of these same people own many other magazine fed weapons for both self defense, hunting, as well as SHTF, and none complain about magazine loss with any of those weapons. Be they rifle or pistol. Bill T.
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My post was misdirected at you Tombo, sorry. It's just It confuses me to hear people complaining about losing a detachable magazine with this rifle as some type of detriment to owning it. Most of these same people own many other magazine fed weapons for both self defense, hunting, as well as SHTF, and none complain about magazine loss with any of those weapons. Be they rifle or pistol. Bill T.
Like their carry pistol ? ;D
Actually I tend to agree with TAB on this one, sweet looking rifle, but off the range what purpose does it serve ?
I like that Mauser much better because with the 5 round capacity you can actually hunt with it, (In NH any way )
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There are 5 round magazines on the Ruger site for this rifle. Can you hunt in NH with a levergun with a 6 round magazine?
This rifle appeals to me and I may even sell an AR to buy it :o
As a general purpose rifle I think this one is a winner. I like a rugged and reliable bolt that doesn't have to be clean and lubricated to function and will feed whatever I cycle into it. I like the caliber, versatile, reputation for accuracy and hard hitting. I have two friends with SOCOM's and while they are very nice, they are heavy beasts and a bit finicky about ammo.
If it is forced into a defensive role (aka "Slow Losing") I've really screwed up already as historically success at holding the fort is a low percentage bet - Alamo, Little Big Horn, Waco, a number of Pacific islands ... That ranch owner in Mexico did pretty well with his hunting rifle vs a larger and "better" armed (automatic weapons & hand grenades) drug thugs - killed four, severely wounded two but still ended up dead.
In a combative role this rifle would serve well accurately reaching out farther with a projectile that has some capability against harder targets. Its size and weight improve its mobility which would better improve the survivability if armed conflict is the only option.
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The AR-15 / M-16, M-9 as well as the M-14 are all magazine fed weapons. The "losing" of magazines is not, and has never been considered an issue. In combat, or in civilian use. It shouldn't be one in the case of this weapon either.
It's just It confuses me to hear people complaining about losing a detachable magazine with this rifle as some type of detriment to owning it. Most of these same people own many other magazine fed weapons for both self defense, hunting, as well as SHTF, and none complain about magazine loss with any of those weapons. Be they rifle or pistol. Bill T.
It shouldn't be an issue but very well might if the Ruger Scout is used for anything more dangerous than deer hunting. Beyond that benign application it's supposed to be a do-all, take-to-the-hills minimalist survival weapon. The kind of weapon you need to rely upon 24/7, in all weather conditions, with no outside support and possibly for months or years on end. If you're going to carry several magazines and some spare parts, why not also use an AK, AR, FAL variant, etc. and give yourself the capability for rapid fire and added time between mag changes?
As for losing a magazine, **it happens. I know a guy whose deer hunt was potentially ruined when he lost the magazine to his Remington 7600. He unloaded in preparation of crossing a stream and fingers numbed from the cold didn't work like they were supposed to. He swore he felt the magazine going into his coat pocket but once he was across the stream and tried to reload, it was was gone. So now he was stuck with a single-shot for the rest of his day. If he'd needed more than one shot he would've been screwed.
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Right before posting my last response, I was looking for alternatives to the expensive and foreign made Accuracy International magazines. Looks like C Products makes a blackened stainless steel magazine that is interchangeable with an AI unit. Price is $58 either from the manufacturer or MidwayUSA. Considering my experience with C Products' AR mags, I'd wager these will be excellent quality. And for significantly less than AI.
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There are 5 round magazines on the Ruger site for this rifle.
Confirmed: http://shopruger.com/Bolt-Action-Magazines/products/559/
For $69 you get a 5 round magazine. That's pricey but they come from a manufacturer (AI) that produces great stuff too.
Now flushing the "it ain't a good hunting rifle" argument down the toilet right now.... ;D
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Hi guys...finally back at my main computer n stead of the iPad...this is a FASCINATING thread, and as my friend Andy Langlois emailed to me, it has been a long time since a rifle — especially a bolt-action rifle — has elicited such excitement.
I suspect the Scout will replace my FAL as the heavy caliber always available (HCA2) rifle in Chez Bunker, especially if my Sweetie agrees to go through the course Ed Head and I are putting together and can "double" on the rifle. The function of the HCA2 rifle is to, if necessary, allow me to push the fight — regardless of what that fight is — away from my front door. Assume my partner in the fight will have an AR. Yes, that is a lot of firepower. Yes, I will likely never need it. Yes, if I ever do need it, I will need it really really badly! BTW, local law enforcement is aware of my basic planning, and they heartily agree with it. In fact, the strategy was suggested by law enforcement.
What might that fight be? Beats me...I suspect that 2 dozen MS-13 gang members on my lawn, as happened last year in New York state, would be enough to trigger the maximum strategy as a precaution. I don't see this as all that much different than carrying a concealed handgun...I don't expect to need it daily (although I have needed it in the past); I have arranged my life to avoid intersecting with the criminal element of society, as I have chosen to live well outside of a major urban area. But if I do need it, it is not at home in safe. As I'e always said, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
An interesting note...people on the Internet (not just here) seem to have a lot more faith in AR-10s than I do. The only New-Gen (e.g. current development) semiauto MBR I would unconditionally recommend is the civilian SCAR Heavy, the 17S. Best shooting 7.62 carbine I've ever shot! Most expensive 7.62 carbine I've ever shot!
I spent some time with one of the Special Forces guys who had been wringing out the whole family of AR-10 style 7.62s, and his team found all of them wanting. Ditto for the eclectic, but exhaustive, "Boston T. Party" Gun Bible tests of several years back. If you have one that is 100%, cherish it. Especially cherish functional magazines! I've heard more good than bad about the Remington R-25 evolution of the DPMS platform, but I haven't yet seen it "wrung out" and I don't have any personal experience with it.
Old Skol battle rifles — Garand, M1A, FAL, etc — are what they are. Interestingly enough, I know a lot of self-defense trainer type guys who keep a Garand in the closet for as one told me, "the last fall-back." Pretty much what I'm talking about for a HCA2 strategy.
I would also recommend the FNAR as a HCA2...I've shot the gun in both prototype and production versions, and it shoots as well as any semiauto 7.62 around. Super accurate, not surprising since it's a militarized BAR hunting rifle. It has the issue of being heavy (8-plus pounds) and features true proprietary magazines (nobdoy to my knowledge makes them but FNH). Going to be a little pricier (street prices from $1300-1500), but in its 16-inch configuration I would rate it as excellent in the "sport/utility" role. I told FNH that I'd like to see it with a scout scope mount option, but no dice on that one. I get the sense that the FNAR hasn't been a huge success for FNH, which is a shame. If you buy into the concept of a sport-ute, but you want a semi, at least look at the FNAR [and, for the record, Ruger is a sponsor and FNH isn't...does that make me even?]
In a civilian context, I like the bolt gun for the same reason I like the lever action carbine as a go-to rifle...if I end up in court for, say, whacking one of our problem lions in my back yard (the most likely use of such a gun given our little "lion problem"), I'd rather my defense attorney hold up a (boring) bolt-action or a (boring) lever gun than a (scary) faux-battle rifle. Where I live, truck guns — usually lever guns, interestingly enough, but a lot of bolts and the occasional Mini-14 — are common as dirt. People see them a lot, which is good.
More thoughts later...
Michael B
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I like it, there's got to be some way to get a little weight off it to allow for a 'scope & keep it under 7lbs. I do have reservation about shooting a 16" .308Win. with a muzzle brake however, especially when hunting and ear protection isn't practical. So come on BATF let us buy a can 'off ticket' that reduces any gun to under 90db or so? ........just for starters?
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Then of course there's this:
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/
if they'd only make a longer mag :P. Then shorten the barrel a bit it'd come in at about 6.5lbs
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*clearing my throat** well~~ I can say that I am privileged to be a proud owner of one of these sweet bad boys.. ;D Yes.. you heard right.. Little ole' me.. And what a surprise!!
I didn't even have a clue that my wonderful husband had bought me this..
Marshal brought it in... set the box down.. went to the bathroom and in that length of time I had opened the box.. saw what it was... grabbed it up.. pulled it up to my shoulder with my eye on those sweet sights and it was love at "first fondling".. LOL
I was squealing and just going crazy over it.
He came out of the bathroom... and I threw my arms around his neck telling him he was the most wonderful husband in the world.. That I LOVED this gun and what a wonderful surprise it was..and thank you SO MUCH for getting it for me. :-*
I know he was taken aback by my excitement.. because he had that deer in the headlight look...he was trying to talk.. but only sputtered and stammered something to the effect of .. ""uhhhh... I actually... well, I really thought that I would... uhhhhmmm Actually it wasn't........I mean.. what I'm trying to say is.................... sure honey.. I'm so glad that it fits you so well.. "
He was so emotional over it all that tears welded up in his eyes..as he gently reached out an uncertain hand and gently almost lovingly stroked my new gun. The raw emotion was touching.. almost like he lost his best freind.. I don't know why that look...because he pulled the surprise off perfectly! It was a wonderful successful surprise! ;D
I have a lot of guns.. Yes.. we have AR's too.. BUT.. never have I pulled up a gun and had it fit me so perfect.
I'm not kidding you an ounce either..This thing is like it was custom made for me.
The sights are awesome.. right dead on in the middle of that triple fork.. and it is smooth to handle.. and lordy lordy lordy.. I'm in luuuuuve..... haha
(I'm not real crazy about the safety on it.. its smooth and natural to click back on after you shoot it.. but the taking it off is a bit awkward.. )
This gun is just so sweeeeet though!!!
**Poor Marshal... He just looks at it all sad like..sometimes going over and picking it up and sighing real heavy...Bless his little heart .. He even ask me if maybe he could clean it for me.. Now isn't that just the nicest?
But why is he trying not to cry everytime he picks it up.... ???
The emotional aspect of giving it to me just filled his heart up with love I guess.... :)**
So.... I would say to you if you get a chance to pick one of these up.. I don't think you will ever regret it..
((Just don't get one and go to the bathroom.. unless you take it with you)) ;) ;D
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Marshall give 1 away buy 2 new what a deal. 10/4
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M'lette, I think I speak for every board member when I say that if you EVER enter my home, you will keep both hands in your front pockets at all times. I'll serve your beer with a straw. ;D
FQ13
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Thanks MB and Marshall'ette. It comes down to personal preference. For those on the move, camping, hiking, hunting, in a terrain and environment that warrants a thumping bolt action,...this is a valid consideration.
Period.
For those that this rifle doesn't blow the wind up your shorts, there are plenty of other viable options. God forbid, we ever have to use any rifle on two legged varmints, in open country, but in court, in today's day and age, a bolt action looks a whole lot better than an "evil" self loading AR...(of which I am a huge fan)...
Plus it will damn sure put meat on the grill.
Congratulations Marshal'ette. Give a big wet one to Marshall.... Look forward to a shake down range report.
Thanks again MB for your insight. It's not on my table right now, I have others that fit the bill, but it is exactly what it is.
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Thanks MB and Marshall'ette. It comes down to personal preference. For those on the move, camping, hiking, hunting, in a terrain and environment that warrants a thumping bolt action,...this is a valid consideration.
Period.
For those that this rifle doesn't blow the wind up your shorts, there are plenty of other viable options. God forbid, we ever have to use any rifle on two legged varmints, in open country, but in court, in today's day and age, a bolt action looks a whole lot better than an "evil" self loading AR...(of which I am a huge fan)...
Plus it will damn sure put meat on the grill.
Congratulations Marshal'ette. Give a big wet one to Marshall.... Look forward to a shake down range report.
Thanks again MB for your insight. It's not on my table right now, I have others that fit the bill, but it is exactly what it is.
Hey~~~ anything that blows wind up my shorts ..I think I'll like.. I mean.. I think I'll REALLY like it.. ;D you know... I mean.. I 'm just saying............ ;)
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This is the main reason Melanie accompanies me to the gun shop when I go on my "excursions". It always winds up being more expensive, but we come home with something each of us can pet besides one another. She is one of the few women I've ever known that gets more excited walking into a gun shop than a clothing store. That I cannot bitch about! We watched that silly movie, "Tremors" last night. She reminds me of the character Reba McEntire played. Bill T.
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M'ette,
Are you going to put glass on it, or just shoot it with the irons? Bill T.
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If it were mine, I'd go for an eotech. It was made for it. Fast target aquisition, and more than good enough at two hundred yards, plus long eye relief. I really love that sight. Its not the best for long range accuracy, but on a scout rifle? Its hard to beat, and its easy to carry a spare set of AAs.
FQ13
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.......... blow the wind up your shorts, ...................
This would be the opposite of shooting sunshine up my kilt, I think.
The new Ruger has two things over existing rifles, such as the Tikka T3 Lite. The detachable magazine and the forward mounted optics. It will take off because, I think, the magazine. There will be less expensive after market magazines available soon, I'd guess. What I really hope is it encourages other rifle makers to incorporate larger capacity mags. The last I checked a 3 round Tikka mag was $70. And it may encourage the after market in magazines for other rifles.
Using it for self-defense because it would look less evil in court than an AR, would be negated by the large capacity magazine, I think.
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MUST HAVE!
(and I have an inside line on Ching Slings ;) )
Andy
I do not see what this rifle would do for me that my FNAR would do for me 10 times better. I'm a fan of J Cooper but this rifle is late to the party!
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From MB:
Especially cherish functional magazines! I've heard more good than bad about the Remington R-25 evolution of the DPMS platform, but I haven't yet seen it "wrung out" and I don't have any personal experience with it.
The R25 is heavy, but shoots very well and is 100% with any mag brand I have used - and any ammo, factory or reload.
Question I posted on MB's blog - what is the advantage of using a forward scope mount since recharging with stripper clips has been taken off the table with this Ruger. Shooting with both eyes open?
You can use ANY scope with both eyes open providing you don't have the power cranked up too far. Plus, a proper scope mount enables you to turn up that power and use the scope for what it was designed to do - sight in on small targets at farther range.
If you want fast, an Eotech would be much faster IMHO.
What Ruger released is a M77 with a short barrel, detachable mag and a rail.
I don't get the excitement. Definitely not on my list of 'must haves'.
I do not see what this rifle would do for me that my FNAR would do for me 10 times better. I'm a fan of J Cooper but this rifle is late to the party!
By at least 20 years....
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M'ette,
Are you going to put glass on it, or just shoot it with the irons? Bill T.
To be honest.. I really prefer open sights sometimes.. ( depends on what I am shooting.. )but Marshal is insisting that I put a forward scope mount on it with a Burris scope.. http://www.burrisoptics.com/specialty.html
I'll probably like it I am sure...
He said if I didn't like it.. he would take it and put it on his gun ( which will be the left handed version of this same rifle..)
Yea yea yea.. the crybaby has one coming as soon as they are ready.. LOL ;D
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What I like about the the Ruger Scout rifle:
a)It is essentially begging to have a suppressor put on it
b)the rail looks like it should easily take an extended riser( saw
one in the Gunblast review of the rifle) this would enable the easy
mounting of NVD in front of day optics for a considerably cheaper price
than most other bolt actions that allow this.
c) the new polymer bottom and AICS mags should lead to some very
interesting future products from Ruger
d) $58 dollars for AICS mags is a LOT CHEAPER than the price Tikka
charges for their plastic mags, which are nowhere near the same level of
quality
e) NV compatability + 10 rd magazine + suppressor = ideal hog or culling
rifle. Also these same features make it a good option for LE work where
AR’s are frowned upon for political reasons
My other main thought on scout rifles is that I prefer using red dots on them instead of the forward mounted scout scopes. I tried the Leupold version and just couldn’t warm up to it. As others have noted it is quite easy to use low powered conventional scopes and still be able to look around the scope ( use both eyes). Also really wish that Ruger could have managed to use a synthetic stock instead of the laminate one. It would also be nice if Ruger offered the rifle with their target trigger especially for the MSRP it has.
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To be honest.. I really prefer open sights sometimes.. ( depends on what I am shooting.. )
I'm the same way. Most all of my AR's have factory irons. Even with my ageing eyes I can still shoot them well enough. Scopes are nice, and many rifles require them, but too many think iron sights are outdated. I disagree. When you look at the ruggedness factor, (very important in a military type battle rifle), iron sights are all but invaluable. Also, in shooting from field positions at medium ranges, I find irons to be easier to make consistent hits with.
I once scoped my Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 Magnum because it came with rings. After several range sessions I removed it. I found I could shoot it more accurately with the factory iron sights. That made me reevaluate my thinking on scoping rifles as well. Bill T.
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Got the Burris scope in.. Got it on.....
Have to wait to tell you if I like it or not.. after I shoot it.. ;)
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Got the Burris scope in.. Got it on.....
Have to wait to tell you if I like it or not.. after I shoot it.. ;)
And I promise, we ain't jealous either............ :-*
(do not believe that, either)
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And I promise, we ain't jealous either............ :-*
(do not believe that, either)
I'm not jealous.
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I'm not jealous.
Me neither.....I'm envious..... 8)
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Hello to all,
This is my first post here. I have read this thread and find the information here very informative. First of all I am glad that I live in America and I have choices in the rifles I can buy. I for one am very happy this rifle is offered as it suits my needs very well. As much as I like my AR's, AK, et al., I am a bolt action man at heart. I feel most comfortable using bolt actions and have shot them extensively. I am also a fan of the Ruger M-77 action. I was lucky enough to have access to a good sized ranch in TX and used my M-77 almost daily for about two years. The rifle never failed me and I beat the heck out of it. It also severed me well in the deserts out here in California where I currently live. The action is proven and simple. While I tend to think of rifles like golf clubs and pick the one that best suits my particular needs, I have been looking for one rifle that could accompany me and my family from the deserts to the mountains and work well in both places. This would allow my wife to shoot one system and become proficient with it. I also have a house in the desert that is somewhat remote, this seem like a good rifle to keep out there. Most of the 7.62x51 battle rifle I have played with are just too big and clunky for me. These are all, of course, person observations. I think a person should choose and use a rifle that suits them best and not worry about trying to prove its' worth to others. Conversely, the rifle you choose might not work for others, so allow them the freedom to choose without criticitism. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these to wring out....now how do I find out about Michael's upcoming class for this rifle??
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Hi ECVMatt and welcome to Down Range TV.
We are in the middle of planning a Scout Rifle class at Gunsite. I don't think we will have any dates until after SHOT Show.
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I'm not jealous.
Figures. ::)
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It's Saturday night, but tomorrow or Monday I want to talk a lot more on forward mounted scopes, shooting with both eyes open, etc...in fact I think this might be a major podcast topic!
Michael B
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It's Saturday night, but tomorrow or Monday I want to talk a lot more on forward mounted scopes, shooting with both eyes open, etc...in fact I think this might be a major podcast topic!
Michael B
Speaking of both eyes Mike, how's your eye holding up after the procedure?
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Figures. ::)
This rifle does nothing for me. I could buy 2 m1s for the price, they will do anything this gun will do and in many cases do it better. Not to mention, clips are alot cheaper. $80 for a mag is a joke.
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Here is a basic question for MB and others. What is the purpose of the forward mounted scope if not to allow recharging the mags with clips? A standard M-77 setup, with the ten round box mag, would seem to do the same thing, and allow a larger selection of optics. If the rifle does offer a clip option and I missed it, my bad. If not, why mount the scope forward if you don't have to? I look forward to the post!
FQ13
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Its so you can get on target/shoot with both eyes open.
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Its so you can get on target/shoot with both eyes open.
A red dot or a 'big game" 1.5 power will do that in a standard configuration. Is there anything else here? I thought being able to feed a bolt or semi with clips, or use a scope on a top ejecting lever was a big part of the deal.
FQ13
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the scout rifle idea came well before there was red dots.
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All,
I have been going back and forth between an Aimpoint T1 and a Leupold Scout Scope on my Scout, lemme tell ya... the T1 is nice, very fast on target and is far more user friendly than normal glass. I can mount it on either receiver ring or on the scout mount. (this is also a nice way to scope a "normal" rifle to get scout-like handling).
That being said, I have the leupold mounted back on it and am pleased with it, it works.
Did someone say "Scout Class at Gunsite"???????????????????????????????? ;)
Regards,
Andy the Ching Sling guy (who has a nice "kit" for new scout owners who need sling/hardware!)
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A red dot or a 'big game" 1.5 power will do that in a standard configuration. Is there anything else here? I thought being able to feed a bolt or semi with clips, or use a scope on a top ejecting lever was a big part of the deal.
FQ13
I don't remember if it was a previous post, or MB's blog, but there was mention that there is NO provision for clip feeding this rifle, not much point to it any way in a rifle that uses detachable magazines.
The forward mounted scope serves several purposes, one is irrelevant in this design.
It allows reloading from a clip with out having the scope offset to the side, (relevant here due to detachable mags).
It prevents ejected brass from beating up the scope,
Most important , By allowing you to shoot with both eyes open, it makes for faster target acquisition.
Since I mentioned offset scopes I will bring up a comment that I ran across in H.W. McBride's "A Rifleman Went to War"
since the top mounted scope is already offset vertically from the rifle bore, what difference does it make if it is offset horizontally ?
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Tom Bogan covered it...with 2 eyes open you get faster sight acquisition, something we proved to our own satisfaction back in the early IPSC days. Forward mounted scopes go back to WW1 and beyond. Both eyes open also leaves you with better peripheral vision, so you can pick up threats quicker. This is very important on multiple-target strings...remember, your eyes tend to " lead" the body...on a multiple-target string you pick up thevsecond target in your peripheral vision before there is any physical movement...first movement brings the gun to target.
On my own situation, it seems pretty good...on doctor's orders I'm waiting a full week before I put a lot of strain on the eye ( and the dr said target shooting is the very definition of eye strain!).
Michael B
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This rifle does nothing for me. I could buy 2 m1s for the price, they will do anything this gun will do and in many cases do it better. Not to mention, clips are alot cheaper. $80 for a mag is a joke.
Just ribbing you a little.......no one rifle will suit everyone's needs.
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when are we gonna see some porn 'Mette? ;D ... of the gun... :o I mean.... ;)
I'm heading to the corner... gonna check the provisions...
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To belabor the point just a bit. Ruger already introduced the "eyes-open targeting" concept. In 5 calibers.
I found this old ad from 2007. Now the basic difference between this and the new announcement is the addition of a box magazine. Oh how much better had it been a standard M14 mag and available in all the 308 and WSM based cases.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TS3VMNXhkoI/AAAAAAAAiK4/ivwOmDHb8RY/RugerM77Ad.jpg)
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I got my rifle ordered today. I should have it next week. I am very excited.
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with 2 eyes open you get faster sight acquisition
Both eyes open also leaves you with better peripheral vision, so you can pick up threats quicker.
I fully agree on both eyes open shooting, WHATEVER weapon you choose.
Could someone please explain how a receiver mounted scope FORCES you to close one eye?
How is a receiver mounted scope slower to shoot with both eyes open than a forward mount?
I have scopes that range from 1x4 to 5.5x22. Not one of them requires off eye closing to use. Not a single one! If I close one eye it is simply because I want to....and I usually don't want to.
Michael said the forward scope concept "goes back to WWI and beyond".
Seems to me that it wouldn't be so rare to see a forward scope mount after 97 years if the idea held water.
The whole "scout rifle" concept seems like a solution desperately looking for a problem to solve.
IMNSHO, the sales pitch that this is the fast! way to shoot a bolt gun with a scope is just that, a sales pitch with no grounding in reality.
If Ruger wants to build a niche rifle, great.
If they want to build a rifle that is different than most out there, great - I don't think the marketplace will support it but, you go Ruger!
If they still catalog this rifle 5 years from now, I will be amazed.
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The reason the forward mounted scope didn't take off earlier is due to scope technology, it has nothing to do with the validity of the concept. "Pistol", or long eye relief scopes did not become truly practical until the late 60's or early 70's.
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Interesting that the initial photos of them testing the new rifle show them with the rear mounted scope.
Here's Mark Gurney of Ruger shooting it
(http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-Gunsite/Thumbs/DSC07153.jpg)
They've had this rifle for 4 years already. The only big change, and I think it will stick, is the removable box magazine, that while not a standard M1A1 mag, will be reproduced by 3rd parties, and will be available in larger capacities than 10.
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I fully agree on both eyes open shooting, WHATEVER weapon you choose.
Could someone please explain how a receiver mounted scope FORCES you to close one eye?
How is a receiver mounted scope slower to shoot with both eyes open than a forward mount?
I have scopes that range from 1x4 to 5.5x22. Not one of them requires off eye closing to use. Not a single one! If I close one eye it is simply because I want to....and I usually don't want to.
Michael said the forward scope concept "goes back to WWI and beyond".
Seems to me that it wouldn't be so rare to see a forward scope mount after 97 years if the idea held water.
The whole "scout rifle" concept seems like a solution desperately looking for a problem to solve.
IMNSHO, the sales pitch that this is the fast! way to shoot a bolt gun with a scope is just that, a sales pitch with no grounding in reality.
If Ruger wants to build a niche rifle, great.
If they want to build a rifle that is different than most out there, great - I don't think the marketplace will support it but, you go Ruger!
If they still catalog this rifle 5 years from now, I will be amazed.
It's the greater field of view with both eyes open rather than the fact that both are open that allows faster target acquisition and, in addition, more awareness of what is out there, be it other adversaries or a big Boone and Crockett buck standing several feet to the left of the doe you first spotted and have in your scope.
With the scope in the standard position, it fills most of your view unless you move out of your shooting position. With a forward mounted scope you can better maintain your shooting position while observing more of your surroundings.
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I ordered me one of these Ruger Scouts yesterday.
Besides that, I stopped in at my "Big Boy and Girl Toy Store" and played with the Ruger Scout they had on the wall. From the pictures the rifle looks heavy. I was very impressed with how light, of course it didn't have any boolits in da' gun yet, and how fast it swung from target to target in the store. This seems to be a fast handling little rifle and I'm looking forward to wringing mine out when it gets here.
The cost, my local "pusher" had them at $790, with MSRP being $995, if I recall correctly. I've seen them as low as $720 + Shipping online. They seem to be selling fast, but I think the average price will be around $780 or so, if you average the online and brick and mortar prices. Me thinks Ruger may have a hit with this one.
Biker
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Bane, YOU'RE BAD FOR MY WALLET!
I visited the fun store hoping to handle one. Said they were allocated but I went ahead and ordered one anyway. Got a call a few days later saying they found one and it's on its way! Now I'm trying hard to be patient.
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Range reports gentlemen. Range reports!
FQ13
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Here is a short review I post on another site...
I really like this rifle. I can not afford a scope right now, so I was only shooting the iron sights. The iron sights proved a clean usable site picture and line up perfectly with the stock. I fired a group at 50 yards and brought my allen wrench to adjust my sights. Much to my surprise my group was slightly above my aiming point and dead center. The group is about 1 inch in diameter and was fired off hand. Since everything looked good, I shot at 100, 200, and about 350 yards. I was shooting out in the open desert, so I could realistically shoot as far as I could see. I was picking targets that were about 12 inches in diameter and got hits every time I pulled the trigger out to 200 yards. At 350 it took about three round to find my hold over and then I could make hits about 75% of the time. I did not shoot father than this because we were there to hunt coyotes and the rest of the guys were fired to attack the yotes.
Some random thoughts from the day:
I used C-Products mags which functioned perfectly, but did have a flaw. They have no retaining plate on the mag floor and I was about to pull the magazine base off when I was attempting a rapid reload. This needs to be addressed and I will look into ways to secure it. It should come from the factory correct however.
The rifle has very little recoil. I was using a handload of 44 grains of Varget, on the bottom end, but it was very soft to shoot.
Here are some pictures:
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/ECVMatt/GSR1.jpg)
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/ECVMatt/GSR2.jpg)
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/ECVMatt/GSR3.jpg)
And the target...
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/ECVMatt/GSRT.jpg)
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Nice shootin'.
I'm liking mine, and while having used bolt action rifles for years, I've never been a fan of them. This just might be the rifle that changes my opinion of bolt actions.
Biker
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I inspected the C-Products magazines and found the problem. One of the magazines is missing the tab on the bottom that retains the base plate. I have contacted C-Products about the problem and will update once I here back from them. Here are some pictures:
Here is a picture of the bottom with the tab missing and one with the tab in place
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/ECVMatt/Mag1.jpg)
Here is a picture of the base plate slipped past the tab compared to a correct magazine
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/ECVMatt/Mag2.jpg)
My overall impression of the magazine it that it is extremely well made. Hopefully this one just slipped by and is not a continual problem.
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I punch thousands of parts like these every week. Sometimes, a few bad ones are going to slip through. Most of the time it's because some beancounter needed to make his monthly revenue goals...
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My bet is the sheet slipped in the clamps or else "the new guy" sanded it off when he was deburring his parts.
Tim, you working a punch press now ?
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My bet is the sheet slipped in the clamps or else "the new guy" sanded it off when he was deburring his parts.
Tim, you working a punch press now ?
I meant figuratively, we have an Amada turret punch, two Trumpf lasers and one Prima laser. I develop and program for all three at this place in addition to anything else they need me to do. I don't physically run the turret press but I can operate the lasers if I boned up on them. I haven't had to and probably wont. I can't work in the shop too long anymore because of my broken old body...things have been going pretty well lately..
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Yeah it is really a minor thing. The mags are built hell for stout, so I have no worries about them. I am hoping the C-Products will just exchange the mag body with me and all will be good.
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Range reports gentlemen. Range reports!
FQ13
I've had mine at the range a few times and last weekend I took it for a walk in the woods.
(http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/Pathfinder/gsrscouting.jpg)
For a bolt gun I'd have to say it is pretty handy - not quite Winchester 94' handy but easy carrying none the less. The detachable magazines NEED a pouch to make them handy. I started out just carrying them in my pockets but they are bulky, the corners make it uncomfortable in trouser or shirt pockets - not bad in the coat though - and the weight of a loaded magazine feels unnatural in a pocket. I ended up putting my spares in my pack and carrying loose cartridges in pockets. MUST find a good pouch for these...
I ended up firing about thirty rounds on my walk, all plinking shots at knots on logs, pieces of bark and a plastic soda bottle. For most of the shooting I used a 115 grain cast bullet (Lyman 311008) over 3 grains of bullseye. The report is rimfire like and it is very accurate in the Ruger GSR. It was great fun. Touched off a few higher power loads and they performed as expected on the targets I had - accurately, with authority and impressively. The Hornady 165 grains JSP Interlock bullet is a winner in this rifle. My best results have come with it over Varget and IMR 4064. IMR 4895 is showing very positive signs too.
(http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/Pathfinder/50metersh165imr4064.jpg)
Five shots, irons sights, 50 meters, Hornady 165 grain JSP over IMR 4064.
Overall I am pleased with this rifle. I'm enjoying the testing process and look forward to many more walks with it.
(http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/Pathfinder/gsrscoutingtreebetter.jpg)
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Nice grouping Whit. You and the rifle both did a great job.
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Old time Amada man here Tim, ;D Octo, Pega, Coma, King Turrets from 8 to 72 stations. Still hear the pounding in my sleep sometimes ;D I like the Trumpf Press brakes better than Amada though.
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Whit,
You might give these a try...
http://www.triadtactical.com/Triad-Tactical-Single-5-Round-AICS-AW-Magazine-Pouch.html
I ordered some and they will be here tomorrow. They seem well made; I guess I will know tomorrow.
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Just a quick update from C-Products:
I contacted them last night via their website and received a call at 9:00 AM this morning. They are shipping me a new mag today and sent a return label so I could send the other mag back for their inspection. I offered to handle this through MidWay, since that is where I bought the mag, but they stated that they wanted to handle it themselves.
I would say that is pretty darn good customer service. C-Products will be getting more of my business.
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After reading this report on another forum I was encouraged to try two C-Products magazines myself.
I look forward to testing the five and ten round magazines I ordered.
Biker
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Howdy all.
This morning I removed the Rail from my Scout Rifle, as well as the Rear Site, and mounted a Scope. The Scope wouldn't fit with the Rail in place, otherwise I would've left it on. One thing I'm finding with this compact Bolt Action, is that like the AR, it is very adaptable.
In a few minutes one can have a traditional hunting rifle, Scout Rifle, Truck Gun, Sniper Rifle capable of accuracy beyond a lot of shooters (myself included), or any combination there of. This can truly be a one rifle for all task within the caliber's limitations. Since I'm focusing on longer shots, over 300 Yards at a minimum, I'm going with a more traditional set-up for the time being. Later, when i acquire another rifle in a suitable caliber, I'll go back to running a traditional Scout Rifle.
This rifle is sort of like a Lego Building Block for the Bolt Action guy or gal.
Biker