The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: billt on April 02, 2013, 08:43:01 AM
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http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/atf-agents-raid-home-of-fpsrussias-kyle-myers/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April%202%202013%20Daily%20Newswire%20(1)&utm_content=
"Nearly 40 law enforcement officers consisting of local deputies, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and agents from the U.S. Bureau of Alochol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) flooded Myers’ home and office along his father’s home in Georgia........................ No arrests were made and no items are reported to have been confiscated from either from Myers’ or his father’s house."
More harassment.
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Notice how federal and state authorities work together to violate privacy. No call downtown for an interview? Just storm the house! No arrest; no confiscation. Obviously no proof of violation beforehand, just suspicions?
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Notice how federal and state authorities work together to violate privacy. No call downtown for an interview? Just storm the house! No arrest; no confiscation. Obviously no proof of violation beforehand, just suspicions?
I doubt it was even suspicions. More likely to me, is that this is a scare tactic designed to shut some people up. Take someone who is not TOO prominent, but still well known in the community. Push him around a little, and maybe the others will quiet down. Cover fire to get the enemies heads down, while you plan your next move.
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its hard to know what happen. it is sop for federal leo to enlist the local lea. not every thing the atf does ins unjusifed.
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its hard to know what happen. it is sop for federal leo to enlist the local lea. not every thing the atf does ins unjusifed.
You mean it was OK for them to murder men, women, and children in Waco ?
Their job is to collect taxes .
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its hard to know what happen. it is sop for federal leo to enlist the local lea. not every thing the atf does ins unjusifed.
It isn't so much what they do, but rather how they do it. 40 LEO's involved? And they find nothing illegal. They "think" he might have illegally used explosives in his videos. They don't know now, and they didn't know before. That translates into nothing. If they have to give any information they found to a District Attorney to sift through, it means they didn't find a thing. All they can hope for now is a fishing expedition that's productive enough to get their bobber to sink.
They did the same thing to Cavalry Arms here a few years back. They showed up with enough people and firepower to take Iwo Jima, and arrested no one. Everything they took they wound up giving back. All they did was aggravate everyone involved, and disrupt a legitimate business. These people didn't learn a damn thing from Waco or Ruby Ridge. If anything, it's made them worse. This kind of crap is going to end with a big bang one of these days, and a lot of people are going to wind up getting killed.
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Found another story here:
http://www.independentmail.com/news/2013/mar/27/atf-agents-search-georgia-properties/
Sheriff said they were using Tannerite and that Tannerite was legal up to a point.
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Found another story here:
http://www.independentmail.com/news/2013/mar/27/atf-agents-search-georgia-properties/
Sheriff said they were using Tannerite and that Tannerite was legal up to a point.
They sell the stuff at Cabela's. There's a limit on ammo, not on Tannerite.
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Each state may vary on the legal limit. I will have to check Georgia's.
The catch is whether it is mixed or not. Once mixed, it falls under the black powder rules, which is where the 50# limit comes in.
According to the official Tannerite product page:
Tannerite® introduced the Binary Exploding Rifle Target to civilians for long range target practice many years ago. We are the inventors of the Binary Exploding Target and they are a patented product. We designed Tannerite® to be a safe, legal, and effective training tool. With Tannerite®, there is no chance of a fire, and no chance of accidental initiation from other sources such as friction or static.
Tannerite® is NOT a “Firework (UN0336/UN0335)” or a “Pyrotechnic (UN0431/UN0432”). These items have unique United Nations numbers, separating them from each other. Tannerite® is exempt from state and federal regulatory controls under the “Small arms exemption clause” as a shot indicator. A civilian may shoot exploding rifle targets the same day they are mixed as long as they don’t exceed their state’s limit on black powder. Per CFR, federal law allows you to possess 50 lbs of “pre-mixed” powder for sporting use. A state such as Maryland has a limit of 5 pounds. This means that you may not possess over 5 pounds of “mixed” Tannerite at any given time in Maryland, however, you may possess as much UNMIXED Tannerite as you wish, and combine the binary targets in smaller quantities as you shoot them.
Tannerite® and black powder are comprised of a combination of oxidizers and fuels. The difference is that Tannerite® is much safer than ordinary black powder, or any other sporting powder because it is not flammable and will not burn in either it’s mixed or unmixed state. Furthermore it can’t start a fire when shooting it, since it is an oxygen-robber and as such will actually extinguish and suppress fire.
When combining Tannerite®, you are not required to have a license UNLESS you choose to mix the compounds COMMERCIALLY. A situation that would require a license would be if a shooting range were to mix and sell the targets for any form of reimbursement, but an individual MAY mix and shoot Tannerite® for any NON-commercial sporting purpose.
http://www.tannerite.com/featured/tannerite-for-civilian-applications/
The 50 lb. limit is a fairly old law. Black powder is regulated as an explosive, BUT, there is a sporting use exception in the law for not over 50 lbs. for certain sporting uses.
Industry Circular
Number: 75-22
Date: December 3, 1975
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226
AMENDMENTS TO THE LAW AND REGULATIONS REGARDING BLACK POWDER AND CERTAIN IGNITERS
Federal Firearms Licensees, Explosives Licensees and Permittees, and Others Concerned:
Purpose.
This circular provides information on amendments to the law and proposed amendments to the regulations regarding black powder and certain igniters, subsequent to Public Law 93-639, effective January 4, 1975.
Background. Public Law 93-639 removed the exemption in 18 U.S.C. 845(a)(5) on black powder in amounts of five pounds or less, whether commercially or otherwise manufactured and regardless of its intended use. In lieu of the five pound exemp- tion, the amended law inserted an exemption on black powder in quantities of fifty pounds or less, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers; however, the new exemption is specifically restricted to (1) commercially manufactured black powder, and (2) black powder intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U. S. C. 921(a)(16), or in antique devices, as exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921( a)(4). 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4) was also amended to add language exempting antiques such as muzzle-loading cannons used for sporting, recreational, or cul- tural purposes, from the definition of "destructive device".
In commenting on the legislation, the House of Representatives, Committee on the Judiciary (Report No. 93-1570), which amended the original Senate bill, specifically addressed the issue of Treasury Department regulations that would be drafted to implement the bill. The Committee indicated that "retailers will be required to keep records of their sales of black powder under the new exemption". The Committee further expected that ATF "establish forms to require sporting users to identify themselves on purchase of black powder". In addition to the above conditions, the Com- mittee suggested that ATF could also "require that a purchaser- sportsman certify by affidavit that he intends to use the black powder for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes".
Proposed Regulatory Amendments. Based on the foregoing Congressional expectations and recommendations, the Bureau published a notice of proposed rulemaking in the FEDERAL REGISTER for May 20, 1975. As a result of the numerous comments and suggestions received from sporting organizations, antique firearms enthusiasts, and interested persons, the Bureau has revised the original proposals and has prepared an amended notice of proposed rulemaking.
Basically, under the new proposals the regulations in 27 CFR Parts 178 (Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition) and 181 (Commerce in Explosives) would be amended to reflect the following changes:
1. Definition of "destructive device". The definition of "destructive device", found in Part 178, would be amended by the additon of language exempting antiques, such as small muzzle- loading cannons used for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes, from the term "destructive device".
2. Licensees. Under previous law, all black powder in amounts of five pounds or less was exempt from the provisions of law and regulations in Part 181. This meant that retailers were able to sell black powder in five pound quantities or less without being subject to licensing requirements. Since Public Law 93-639 requires a determination at the time of sale as to whether commercially manufactured black powder in amounts of fifty pounds or less is going to be used solely for sporting, recrea- tional, or cultural purposes, our proposed regulations would require the retailer to maintain records certifying that the pur- chaser intends to use the black powder in accordance with the provisions of the law. All retailers, of course, would need to be licensed in order for ATF to impose these recordkeeping requirements upon them. The dealer's license is a nominal fee of $20 initially and a $10 renewal fee every year thereafter. There would be no licensing requirements on dealers in percus- sion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers.
3. Permittees. Under current regulations in Part 181, a user permit is required in order to acquire explosive materials (except black powder in quantities of five pounds or less) in interstate or foreign commerce. This requirement would be modified so that it would not be necessary for a person to obtain a user permit, if he intends to receive in interstate or foreign commerce, commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyro- technic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or in antique devices.
4. Transaction record for black powder to be used in antique firearms and antique devices. The proposed regulations would require a licensed dealer selling commercially manu- factured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds to be used in antique firearms or in antique devices, to a non- licensee or nonpermittee, to record the transaction on proposed ATF Form 5400.3. No transaction record would be required for the purchase of percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers by nonlicensees or nonpermittees. The executed Form 5400.3, signed by the purchaser and the dealer, would identify the purchaser (by name and address) and certify that the black powder purchased is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or in antique devices. The licensee would be required to main- tain the executed Form 5400.3 on his business premises available for inspection by ATF officers.
Inquiries.
Until specific regulations are promulgated, our only authority is the law. In the interim, any inquiries as to our requirements relating to black powder and igniters should be directed to your Regional Firearms and Explosives Coordi- nator. If you wish to obtain a copy of the proposed regulations, you may obtain it from your regional coordinator. The mailing addresses and phone numbers for the regional coordinators are:
Central Region
Room 6501,
Federal Office Building
550 Main Street
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
(513) 684-3715
Mid-Atlantic Region
Room 334,
2 Penn Center Plaza
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
(215) 597-2220
Midwest Region
Room 1514,
230 S. Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604
(312) 353-3883
North-Atlantic Region
P.O. Box 15
New York, New York 10008
(212) 264-3993
Southeast Region
P.O. Box 2994
Atlanta, Georgia 30301
(404) 455-2675
Southwest Region
Main Tower, Room 345
1200 Main Street
Dallas, Texas 75202
(214) 749-3280
Western Region
525 Market Street,
34th Floor
San Francisco, California 94105
(415) 556-2610
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Just becuase something is legal, it does not mean you can use it how you want. Me using black powder in a gun, is legal, take that same black powder and put it in a pipe with 2 end caps and a fuse is not. No one knows what happen, I won't judge until I know. and for the record, waco and ruby ridge, both sides f'd up.
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Just becuase something is legal, it does not mean you can use it how you want. Me using black powder in a gun, is legal, take that same black powder and put it in a pipe with 2 end caps and a fuse is not. No one knows what happen, I won't judge until I know. and for the record, waco and ruby ridge, both sides f'd up.
They sure did.
According to the evidence the citizens trusted the Govt and the Govt got caught murdering them.
Those are both big mistakes.
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They sure did.
According to the evidence the citizens trusted the Govt and the Govt got caught murdering them.
Those are both big mistakes.
Also, the government had to pay Randy Weaver and several of the Waco survivers millions in restitution. That isn't because they were "right".
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Lawyers were enovled. In both thoses cases people were breaking the law and they knew it.
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Lawyers were enovled. In both thoses cases people were breaking the law and they knew it.
What law did Vicki Weaver break?
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If this whole raid is about nothing more than how much Tannerite they may have mixed up and whether or not it was commercially it's a crock of crap. I guess "they" are trying to find new ways for wasteful spending. I wonder if "they" are trying to say that if they got any remuneration for the youtube videos that it would be considered commercial use.
Another thought may be that "they" are trying to create a crisis in regards to Tannerit Terrorisim to get reactionary targets banned.
Can anyone say fast and furious?
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weaver sold sawed off shot guns to several people including a atf agent. Thats what prompted the raid. Things went down hill on both sides after that.
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weaver sold sawed off shot guns to several people including a atf agent. Thats what prompted the raid. Things went down hill on both sides after that.
I watched Congressional testimony on CSPAN with Arlan Spectre (sp?) leading the way and I do not remember that the government was able to prove the case and convict Weaver for sawing off the shot gun to below legal limit.
The person who went to Randy Weaver to get the shotgun shortened did so on ATF orders so that they could entrap Weaver as payback for Weaver declining to become an informant. All on CSPAN, all Congressional testimony that I saw none of which could be refuted by the government.
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I really hope that Kyle Myers is all vindicated all over payments he gets from being a youtube partner it is a joke
and a very long bow the AFT is pulling with this one..
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weaver sold sawed off shot guns to several people including a atf agent. Thats what prompted the raid. Things went down hill on both sides after that.
What originally prompted the raid was Weaver did not "play ball" with the ATF. He had, in the past, belonged to a white seperatist group. Separatist, not supremacist. They, (ATF), wanted Weaver to give up information on the group regarding weapons the members had, etc. When Weaver refused to be their undercover rat, they nailed him on a barrel length charge on a shotgun he possessed. When he did not appear in court on that charge, that is when the ATF raided his home and murdered his wife, son, and dog. Nice bunch. They attempted to use the weapons charge as bait to get what they wanted from him.
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What originally prompted the raid was Weaver did not "play ball" with the ATF. He had, in the past, belonged to a white seperatist group. Separatist, not supremacist. They, (ATF), wanted Weaver to give up information on the group regarding weapons the members had, etc. When Weaver refused to be their undercover rat, they nailed him on a barrel length charge on a shotgun he possessed. When he did not appear in court on that charge, that is when the ATF raided his home and murdered his wife, son, and dog. Nice bunch. They attempted to use the weapons charge as bait to get what they wanted from him.
From what I had read at the time, the ATF was more involved in Weaver's decision to sell a sawed off shotgun.
After he repeatedly refused to make one and sell it to an undercover ATF agent, they convinced his employer that he should be let go and he lost his job.
When he couldn't find work and needed the cash he finally agreed to take a hacksaw to the shotgun and sell it for the cash he needed.
It would not take much of a lawyer to win Weaver's settlement with evidence of that action going way beyond entrapment.
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I'm going to say this one last time: we cannot trust any leo at any level, local, state and federal. If any of you are offended, so be it.
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I'm going to say this one last time: we cannot trust any leo at any level, local, state and federal. If any of you are offended, so be it.
Many are good and trustworthy. But you can't tell which is which by looking at them. And even if you personally know one, you don't know how long they will stay that way under the pressure they will receive to follow orders.
I always remember a story I read out of Indianapolis, I believe it was, about a woman who asked a police officer into her living room to answer questions he had about an investigation of one of her neighbors.
During the conversation, the woman notices it is time to take her prescription meds., opens her pill box and take the medication.
The police officer asked her to show him her prescription for the medication which she did not have, so he arrests her.
Law states that a prescription drug must be kept in it's original container or the original prescription must be carried with it.
A judge dismissed the charges, but I bet she spent time downtown and perhaps on a lawyer.
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Many are good and trustworthy. But you can't tell which is which by looking at them. And even if you personally know one, you don't know how long they will stay that way under the pressure they will receive to follow orders.
I always remember a story I read out of Indianapolis, I believe it was, about a woman who asked a police officer into her living room to answer questions he had about an investigation of one of her neighbors.
During the conversation, the woman notices it is time to take her prescription meds., opens her pill box and take the medication.
The police officer asked her to show him her prescription for the medication which she did not have, so he arrests her.
Law states that a prescription drug must be kept in it's original container or the original prescription must be carried with it.
A judge dismissed the charges, but I bet she spent time downtown and perhaps on a lawyer.
Yep.
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weaver sold sawed off shot guns to several people including a atf agent. Thats what prompted the raid. Things went down hill on both sides after that.
Never convicted of selling sawed off shotguns.
Again TAB, I ask you what law Vicki Weaver broke?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver
Weaver was charged with multiple crimes relating to the Ruby Ridge incident, a total of ten counts including the original firearms charges and murder. Attorney Gerry Spence handled Weaver's defense, and argued successfully that Weaver's actions were justifiable as self-defense. The judge dismissed two counts after hearing prosecution witness testimony. The jury acquitted Weaver of all remaining charges except two, one of which the judge set aside. Weaver was found guilty of one count, failure to appear, for which Weaver was fined $10,000 and sentenced to 18 months in prison. He was credited with time served plus an additional three months, and was then released. Kevin Harris was acquitted of all criminal charges.[17]
In August 1995, the US government avoided trial on a civil lawsuit filed by the Weavers, by awarding the three surviving daughters $1,000,000 each, and Randy Weaver $100,000 over the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. The attorney for Kevin Harris pressed Harris' civil suit for damages, although federal officials vowed they would never pay someone who had killed a U.S. Marshal (Harris had been acquitted by a jury trial on grounds of self-defense). In September 2000 after persistent appeals, Harris was awarded a $380,000 settlement from the government
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Even if he had sawed off a shotgun, it was a TAX offense. The SBS stamp is a $200 TAX, same with Waco. It was all about the money if you believe the ATF ::)
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I beleave the members of waco fired 1st.
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I beleave the members of waco fired 1st.
Again you are wrong.
The first gun shot at Waco was when an ATF agent storming out of one of the cattle cars tripped and had an AD.
When Koresh came to the door unarmed, to ask what they wanted, he was shot in the stomach by a trigger happy Govt thug.
It is also worth noting that every one of the ATF casualties recovered was proven to have been shot by other ATF agents.
Funny, the forensic evidence that got Harris acquitted in the Ruby Ridge case so that that Marshal had also been shot in the back by his partner.
Maybe every one BUT cops should be allowed to have guns.
I'm curious to know what you think the Branch Davidian's did to deserve being murdered by ATF and other federal agents.
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There was recently a good show on Waco where they talked to the FBI negotiators. They said most every time they were making progress with Koresh, the ATF Tactical guys would rachet up the tension. One guy outright said if the ATF would have taken their helo's and tanks and all gone home, they would have been able to talk Koresh out, no sweat. Typical government agencies. No one cooperates with anyone.
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Remember at Waco that Reno gave the go ahead.
It was for the children.
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It was for the children.
You mean the dead ones, right?
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There is something missing from the reports re FPS Russia. Why 40 agents? I know they wasnt overpowering force to avoid a poor decision by a "perp" to fight back but this is make no sense if their scenario was in any way fact based.
What I mean is you rin a room with other agency managers deciding on this raid and you all lay out the rationale for the visit and you end up agreeing to send 40 SWAT team guys. The "facts" on the table were not just that we have you tube celebrity that has a video show where he blows things up while he stands too close and we think he might not be following all the recordkeeping rules for explosives use. That gets you to a 2 man knock and talk scenario or at worst a 10 man front and back door visit.
Paying for 40 guys for 1-2 days of prep, entry, debrief makes no sense with those facts. So what "facts" do they have that led them to make this "risk adverse" decision? Maybe they think he is really a russian spy!
I do know that government E/R teams love to drill and I could see them saying use this raid "as a drill" but that is nonsense and they would have to admit that at some point. Seems unlikely.
They had a goal here that is hidden. Getting a free warrantless search for the murder investigation seems possible. Some BS political statement for a ladder climbing careerist seems more likely. In any event excessive and ill considered misuse of government force. Somehow no matter how much history I have read, I never really thought we would get to this level of govt control in my lifetime. Sad time ahead.
I remember talking to my ultra lib BIL when the swat team broke into the house and snatched Illa Gonzales (SP?) from his grandparents. He was so happy that his government was "not taking any shit" from those extremists. When I pointed out that the government went in and stole a child from his grandparents over a legal dispute where no violence was ever threatened and that we had just crossed a significant line in our social acceptance for this he got real quiet. Funny how there were no ex-hippy protests over that one.
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The kids name was "Elian", there was a front page photo of him in many papers looking terrified while a "heroic" anonymous ninja stuck an MP 5 in his face.
He was 5 years old.
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The kids name was "Elian", there was a front page photo of him in many papers looking terrified while a "heroic" anonymous ninja stuck an MP 5 in his face.
He was 5 years old.
I remember when that happened, some ninja being interviewed on the news said that was "normal operating procedure". ::)
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I remember when that happened, some ninja being interviewed on the news said that was "normal operating procedure". ::)
That sounds reasonable.
Those extremist 5 year olds can be real little bas*ards when they put their minds to it.
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There is something missing from the reports re FPS Russia. Why 40 agents? I know they wasnt overpowering force to avoid a poor decision by a "perp" to fight back but this is make no sense if their scenario was in any way fact based.
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I agree.
He was not threatening anyone.
Just trying to make cool fun vids on YouTube. For people to see cool guns
I guess the numbers were so the batf can justify there budget and ask for even more cash.
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I agree.
He was not threatening anyone.
Just trying to make cool fun vids on YouTube. For people to see cool guns
I guess the numbers were so the batf can justify there budget and ask for even more cash.
That's why they murdered the Branch Davidians.
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I remember reading at the time of Waco that the local sheriff was quoted as saying if they had let him he would have called Korresh and had him come into town to meet with the feds. They refused to consider it and were determined to make an example of him in the media. In fact the compound was warned by locals who saw all the media trucks in town and got the story of why they were there prior to the raid.
I have been dealing with environmental regulators for 20 years and it is always true that the more local the agency the more human the inspectors are. The Fed EPA inspectors in my experience are usually arrogant and chip on the shoulder stiff. Determined to show me who is the boss. The attitudes soften as you go from state to county to city inspectors. As a pro I treat them all the same and work to make them welcome and the inspection easy and boring. This often just seems to make the feds more suspicious.
My theory is that the assholes get weeded out in a smaller agency where everyone knows each other. The locals also know that if there is an emergency they may have to come back and help me so getting a relationship is the right thing to do.
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Any body notice that TAB shut right up when I asked him about the original charges that sparked the raid ?
There were none.
ATF told the State of Texas the Davidians were involved with drugs because it was the only way they could get the NG Helicopters.
They told the media it was over child abuse.
ATF has no jurisdiction over either one.
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Was there any coverage on this by the lame stream media? The "powers that are" may have had cameras on it hoping a few agents got killed so they could use it in the gun control debate. If that's true, I wonder how it would feel to be an agent to know you life's purpose was perverted to advance some liberal slime's agenda.
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Any body notice that TAB shut right up when I asked him about the original charges that sparked the raid ?
There were none.
ATF told the State of Texas the Davidians were involved with drugs because it was the only way they could get the NG Helicopters.
They told the media it was over child abuse.
ATF has no jurisdiction over either one.
That's what they told Reno. Like I mentioned earlier when negotiations stalled, Reno ordered the raid to go ahead to protect the children. It's always for the children.
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Or maybe I was driving 8 hours each way to go to 2 memorials of friends today. yeah the last few days have been just so much fun for me.
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Or maybe I was driving 8 hours each way to go to 2 memorials of friends today. yeah the last few days have been just so much fun for me.
Well, that would account for 1 of the 4 days since I posted it.