The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: jaybet on September 12, 2012, 11:15:54 PM
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I know it's too much to take in, but this opinionated asshole is asking for advice.
I'm a pistol guy. LOVE my pistols. But an acquaintance insists I get an AR.
Rock River Arms... I can't spend a lot, what's the deal? There are so many.
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I would go to Classic Arms. They are selling Del-tons for between $650-$710. These are good rifles. I haven't heard a bad word about them. You will save yourself all the woes I have with my DPMS Sportical, which I paid about the same amount for. The rifles have the standard AR front sight (which you can co-witness with an optic if you want one). It has a front sling mount, a dust cover and the FA, though I really don't think the F/As are necessary, but its there if you want it. The receiver has a rail so you can mount a carrying handle or an optic. They are currently out of stock on the H-bar, but I think they are taking orders. At $710 its a freaking steal. I would buy one today if I had the money. For the $60 difference between that and the thin barreled model I think its worth the wait, though the thin barrel doesn't suck either.
Good luck.
FQ13
PS I asked about them on AR 15 armory. Here are the responses.
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Del-Ton-ARs-good-t125672.html
PPS Here's the url for Classic Arms
http://www.classicfirearms.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Del-ton
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Jaybet,
There are so many models and variations. Most are pretty good. It all depends on what you want to do with it. If it's just to join the AR club and you have no particular purpose, and not a lot of money, you can get a basic entry level model. in the $700-900 range. FQ has a good suggestion for a quick and ready-to-go version.
For starters, if you have a purpose in mind, such as shooting in NRA National Match, or 3 gun or varmint shooting, or CQC, then you might want to list the features that are most important and do some comparison shopping. First decision, do you want a old-school built in carry handle or a flat top. (Most will tell you get the flat-top, that you can add a carry handle to the top rail if you want one.) Then you need to make the impingement or piston decision. Go with the original impingement design. More aftermarket parts, more standard. Piston driven ones aren't without their problems, too.
My first AR, long before the current craze was a "carry handle" model from Eagle Arms (one iteration of Armalite corporate history). It's barrel is just a little to light weight and shots move a little when it gets hot. But if I had to carry it 10miles+ a day the light weight is a plus.
NOW: And what I'm getting 'round to, is that I built my second AR to get exactly what I wanted at a very low cost.
YOU can do this too and have fun selecting the parts to meet your needs and budgets.
I bought a complete upper with the barrel I wanted. Here's one similar, that's $390. There are less expensive ones, but I wanted the heavy bull barrel. http://www.galatiinternational.com/product/MDB20320.html (http://www.galatiinternational.com/product/MDB20320.html)
Then I bought a lower made by an up-and-coming local company, C3, that was on sale for $80. http://www.semperfiarms.com/store/product/AR15-Lowers/c3-defense-standard-lower.php (http://www.semperfiarms.com/store/product/AR15-Lowers/c3-defense-standard-lower.php)
There are many companies that have lowers, stripped and assembled. I just wanted a local name on my gun. Parts kit, with trigger, and basic stock were less than $150. So for about $650 I have a gun that retails in the $1,000+ range, plus I bought it over a 3 year period. I don't have all the rails and tacticool stuff because I wanted a varmint AR.
You can do better, dollar-wise, for a basic model if you shop carefully. Then if you like it and as funds become available you can do upgrades to better suit your shooting needs.
We'll help step you through the process, but there are tons of websites and forum posting that will step you through it.
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Jay, If this guy is pushing Rock River over any of the others he's an a hole.
I'm not saying Rock River is bad, they're not, but their no better than any other name brand , Stag, Olympic, Bushmaster etc. at least not at the entry level you are interested in, if you want to spend $7K on a Les Baer that's a different matter.
Don't buy more than the lower receiver and internal parts until you have have thought out every aspect of what best serves your needs.
What do you want it for ?
For precision you will want to go with a Rifle configuration, Home defense would be better served with a carbine.
You need to decide that because they use different size buffers and springs.
Do you and Maggie have arms long enough for the solid stock , or would some type of adjustable serve better ?
Even caliber, do you want cheaper centerfire plinking with surplus .223/ 5.56, or do you want to knock bears off your trash cans with .450 Bushmaster ?
Iron sights or optic ? This makes a difference because it is easier to set up an optic sight without the front sight post in the way, but you will need to consider back up / flip up sights .
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Jay, If this guy is pushing Rock River over any of the others he's an a hole.
I'm not saying Rock River is bad, they're not, but their no better than any other name brand , Stag, Olympic, Bushmaster etc. at least not at the entry level you are interested in, if you want to spend $7K on a Les Baer that's a different matter.
Don't buy more than the lower receiver and internal parts until you have have thought out every aspect of what best serves your needs.
What do you want it for ?
For precision you will want to go with a Rifle configuration, Home defense would be better served with a carbine.
You need to decide that because they use different size buffers and springs.
Do you and Maggie have arms long enough for the solid stock , or would some type of adjustable serve better ?
Even caliber, do you want cheaper centerfire plinking with surplus .223/ 5.56, or do you want to knock bears off your trash cans with .450 Bushmaster ?
Iron sights or optic ? This makes a difference because it is easier to set up an optic sight without the front sight post in the way, but you will need to consider back up / flip up sights .
That latter point is key. BUIS are expensive. $80 and up a pop for good quality stuff. IMHO its better to go with a rifle that already has them (unless you get one with a free floated rail, but that's more $$$). S@W comes with a nice pair of flip up BUIS, and TW seems to like his. The fixed AR front sight does mean a high mount, for an optic, but damn I wish I had one. Just by a cheapmagpul back up buis for the rear, or for that matter slap on a $40 carry handle rear sight and youre good to go. Research first, there are lots of things to look at and I will tell you from experience to beware of false economy. But If you're not a DIY guy, and I'm not, whereas Tom and Alf are, be sure to buy a rifle that has as many of the features as you want stock. ARs are like cars. You can customize them as much as you want, but it better be a labor of love, because it ain't cheap and you'll never get your money back if you sell it. If you like messing with guns and want to get the perfect one for you, great. If you just want to open the box and go to the range, make sure the one you buy has what you want on it.
FQ13
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All good stuff guys, sounds like the same thing I would tell someone about a pistol. I'm thinking that it will really be to shoot and also to HAVE one because it's a very useful tool. Probably .223 because that's the classic and ammo is out there. A .308 would be nice but I have no pressing need.
Basic is what I'm thinking, although it would be nice to have a red dot or scope...maybe both eventually. I don't think it would be an HD piece...we're too dedicated to the handguns for that, and concerned about the neighbor's safety. But you never know when you'll have to start whittling down the BG's numbers at a distance.
The other factor is I'm in NJ, which dictates how much stuff I can have on it. Silly, but they've left us able to have functioning black rifles and have outlawed different types or combinations of furniture. Silly politicians. So I may buy locally - got a couple of good shops I trust.
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Here's a cool used AR I found Jaybet. It has most of the bells and whistles, and its only $800. Just for your perusal (scroll up when it appears as there are several comments below the ad, mine included ;)) It really is a nice rig..
FQ13 who loves shopping for other people as I get to drool, but I don't have to write the check. ;D
PS I hear DPMS Sporticals are all the rage this year. I've got one ready to go for $600. ;)
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/AR-sale-t125139.html&pid=1975997#entry1975997
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FQ, just curious...what troubles did you have with your Sportical? I've got a LoPro which is damn near the same rifle and it has been rock solid.
jaybet be warned once you get one of these things you can't just leave them alone. I've got an Ace skeleton stock and a free float handguard on the way and I'm toying with building a 7.62x39 upper for it as well.
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FQ, just curious...what troubles did you have with your Sportical? I've got a LoPro which is damn near the same rifle and it has been rock solid.
jaybet be warned once you get one of these things you can't just leave them alone. I've got an Ace skeleton stock and a free float handguard on the way and I'm toying with building a 7.62x39 upper for it as well.
It's not the online AK he was drooling over up to the minute they put the AR in his hand ;D
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It's not the online AK he was drooling over up to the minute they put the AR in his hand ;D
Actually its that I bought cheap. False economy will bite you in the ass every time. The rifle runs great. Its reliable and accurate. On that basis I love it. However, it has no BUIS and no forward sling mount. To solve this issue, I'm looking at two to five hundred bucks to fix it. The lack of a front sling mount is a travesty, it would have cost DPMS $5 to put one on, for me its $30 at a gunsmith. As far as the BUIS, they are about $80 a pop if you want quality stuff. I could put a front sight on my gas block, but there isn't enough real estate on the receiver rail to mount a rear buis and my eotech. That means a free floated hand rail to allow me to forward mount the optic, and have the rear BUIS, and again, thats $$$, about $150, just to get into the game. Its my own fault for letting myself get stampeded into a purchase, but like a lot of things, if you buy cheap, it costs you more to fix it than if you had just bought right the first time. As a range toy I have zero complaints, again DPMS makes a quality product. But that isn't what I bought it for. A SHTF rifle needs back up irons, and those are going to be spendy. Thats the source of my ire.
FQ13
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Dude, Go to Brownell's or Midway, if you can work a screw driver you can do it yourself.
Here's the pair, front and rear, $90
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=44044/Product/AR-15-M16-MBUS-GEN-2-SIGHT-SYSTEM
Heres a sling swivel that attaches to the rail on the Handguard.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=20697/Product/AR-15-M16-RAIL-SLING-ADAPTER
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Dude, Go to Brownell's or Midway, if you can work a screw driver you can do it yourself.
Here's the pair, front and rear, $90
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=44044/Product/AR-15-M16-MBUS-GEN-2-SIGHT-SYSTEM
Heres a sling swivel that attaches to the rail on the Handguard.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=20697/Product/AR-15-M16-RAIL-SLING-ADAPTER
I have no rail on my handguard. I have to drill and tap. Granted, its not rocket science, but I'd as soon let someone who knows what they're doing do the work. If that were it, I'd get out the drill and go for it. But as your post shows, the front sight won't work for a gas block mount, and the rear takes up more real estate that I have on the reciever rail. If I'm going to fix it, I'm going to fix it right. As it is, I have a very accurate range toy. It would be more accurate it I swapped out the eotech for a scope. Its a fun gun and I like it, but its not a weapon any more than my 10/22. They'll both do in a pinch, but its not what I want in a SHTF situation. Its frustrating. I should either reconcile myself to this fact, or just save my pennies for a new upper, as the lower is great. It has no dust cover or F/A, and I couldn't care less. The trigger is great. DPMS makes a great gun. I just thought it would be easy and relatively inexpensive to upgrade. I'm not caring about easy at this point, I don't mind doing some work, but the expense part? Well, it was the worst hundred bucks I ever saved, lets put it that way.
FQ13
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Heck, FQ...everyone is in the AR parts business these days.... Wal-mart has BLACKHAWK! aluminum hand guards with rails and covers for around a $100.
And then there's any price you care to pay here:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ar+handguard&sprefix=ar+hand%2Caps%2C201
Every wally world in my area has AR's for $700 to $1100 (depending on the model. I just bought two DPMS M4 carbines for $650 each, out the door, at an area gun store............ which is about $150 less than normal for most gun stores, but I had connections. ;D
Now I'm researching sights and scopes and such also.
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I have no rail on my handguard. I have to drill and tap. Granted, its not rocket science, but I'd as soon let someone who knows what they're doing do the work. If that were it, I'd get out the drill and go for it. But as your post shows, the front sight won't work for a gas block mount, and the rear takes up more real estate that I have on the reciever rail. If I'm going to fix it, I'm going to fix it right. As it is, I have a very accurate range toy. It would be more accurate it I swapped out the eotech for a scope. Its a fun gun and I like it, but its not a weapon any more than my 10/22. They'll both do in a pinch, but its not what I want in a SHTF situation. Its frustrating. I should either reconcile myself to this fact, or just save my pennies for a new upper, as the lower is great. It has no dust cover or F/A, and I couldn't care less. The trigger is great. DPMS makes a great gun. I just thought it would be easy and relatively inexpensive to upgrade. I'm not caring about easy at this point, I don't mind doing some work, but the expense part? Well, it was the worst hundred bucks I ever saved, lets put it that way.
FQ13
No you don't
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41045/Product/AR-15-M16-UNDER-FOREARM-INTEGRATED-RAIL
You can do the whole thing yourself with nothing but a screw driver and MAYBE an allen wrench, (I didn't look at the rail )
for <$150.
It sounds like your local gun guy is trying to hose you.
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It sounds like your local gun guy is trying to hose you.
Sadly, that happens all too often.
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Sadly, that happens all too often.
Car mechanics are the same way.
A lot of them see a woman, or a guy who is not that type of do it himselfer and they think "$PAYDAY$"
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Hey FQ, they also make plastic Picatinny rails if you want to go super cheap. http://www.ergogrips.net/item-detail.cfm?ID=4750&storeid=1&image=ergoprail.gif&CFID=15524018&CFTOKEN=37214048 Keep in mind that the rail is parralel to the handguard and not the barrel.
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FQ...I didn't realize any of the Sportical models came without a railed gas block. My LoPro does have one and while I normally don't mount any BUIS the couple of times I have they lined up fine.
Gas blocks are easy to change and not all of them are pricey and a buddy of mine put a front sling swivel in his really cheapass plastic Olympic handguard in about 15 min with nothing but a drill, an Uncle Mike's swivel, a black nylon washer and small aluminum washer a lock nut and some JB Weld, looks and works great. I get that the rifle wasn't what you hoped for when you bought it but you have found it accurate and reliable so spend a little time and money to "make it yours". They really are very easy to work on.
Personally I would rather spend the money tweaking a gun I know than sell it in the hopes I find something "better". Then again, why sell? One AR never seems to be enough!
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FQ...I didn't realize any of the Sportical models came without a railed gas block. My LoPro does have one and while I normally don't mount any BUIS the couple of times I have they lined up fine.
Gas blocks are easy to change and not all of them are pricey and a buddy of mine put a front sling swivel in his really cheapass plastic Olympic handguard in about 15 min with nothing but a drill, an Uncle Mike's swivel, a black nylon washer and small aluminum washer a lock nut and some JB Weld, looks and works great. I get that the rifle wasn't what you hoped for when you bought it but you have found it accurate and reliable so spend a little time and money to "make it yours". They really are very easy to work on.
Personally I would rather spend the money tweaking a gun I know than sell it in the hopes I find something "better". Then again, why sell? One AR never seems to be enough!
Debil get behind me! ;D Seriously, it really is just me being mad at myself for not doing my research before I bought and finding that the $100-$150 I saved was no savings at all. If I could get more space on the rail for a rear buis, I could mount a front gas block sight and still fit the optic. It just pisses me off that I'm at least $200 minimum in parts to make that happen when if I just shopped smarter it wouldn't be an issue. I consider it a lesson learned.
FQ13
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you didn't ask specifics... I'm a 3gun and practical rifle game player...some comments from an old fart
most everyone uses a forged 7075 T5 receiver
chrome lined barrels and chambers are accurate... mine shoots 4" at 400m
for consistent accuracy you need a full float front end, and not necessarily one with sharp rails
you need a flat top if you plan on shooting optics... I DO NOT have backup sights... I shoot a 4x32 TA31F with red chevron that cost more than the rifle
the bolt carrier needs to shroud the firing pin, and the carrier key needs to be properly staked
if you are particular, get a magnifluxed and prooftested bolt of Carpenter 158 or 9310
I use RRA NM triggers in all my rifles, even my Armalite 15T
if you shoot a short barrel it needs M4 feed ramp cut
a 4.2oz buffer seems to work best
if you play gun games a compensator is a good option
an A1 stock fits most better than an A2
you probably need a grip that puts your trigger on the tip pad
that gets you in the ball park
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Les has good info....
Also, a couple of your Florida DRTV brothers can help....TW has good info and another member, Bafsu has built more AR's than you can shake a stick at and always has solid info. Look up some of his past posts and there is a ton of info.
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you didn't ask specifics... I'm a 3gun and practical rifle game player...some comments from an old fart
most everyone uses a forged 7075 T5 receiver
chrome lined barrels and chambers are accurate... mine shoots 4" at 400m
They also are much easier to clean resist fouling and increase barrel life.
for consistent accuracy you need a full float front end, and not necessarily one with sharp rails
you need a flat top if you plan on shooting optics... I DO NOT have backup sights... I shoot a 4x32 TA31F with red chevron that cost more than the rifle
the bolt carrier needs to shroud the firing pin, and the carrier key needs to be properly staked
if you are particular, get a magnifluxed and prooftested bolt of Carpenter 158 or 9310
I use RRA NM triggers in all my rifles, even my Armalite 15T
if you shoot a short barrel it needs M4 feed ramp cut
a 4.2oz buffer seems to work best
if you play gun games a compensator is a good option
an A1 stock fits most better than an A2
you probably need a grip that puts your trigger on the tip pad
that gets you in the ball park
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Thanks guys, I'm still studyin' and cypherin'.
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I may have missed it in one of the posts, but are you going with piston or original gas operated piston?
Take a look at the FailZero uppers and bolts if you are not going piston. It's a hard-faced upper and needs no lubrication. However, the lower bolt will still need lube to keep from hanging up on the mag.
A Wilson trigger (pricey @ $220) is a drop in excellent trigger with and excellent reset. You might really like their TRIM rail.
I like the Phase 5 ambidextrous charging handles, sling attachments and bungee one point slings.. You can get the charging handles in 3 sizes.
Stark pistol grip is pretty good.
For your muzzle device check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtVB4IubWyc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtVB4IubWyc) a couple of friends made. There are 5 youtube videos on muzzle break comparison you'll have to find them after the first link and wade in. They make comparison on muzzle climb, sound, flash suppression, semi/full-auto, debris kicked up when shooting prone, etc. Helps you pick what you need for your purpose.
Some good instructions and drills that help you learn how to work an AR.
Grip and stance...the basics on fighting with an AR. It takes some time to forget the old forearm hold learned over decades, but the new hand-over grip really helps in control and speed. Note this when you select a gas block and rail....YOU DO WANT to have a low profile gas block and a longer rail. The low profile block will keep you from burning your hands and the longer rail is needed to facilitate the grip. You'll want to have that front site as a folddown way out front out of the way of your grip....which also increases your sight radius which is overall a good thing.
Basic grip, stance, etc.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbhmDOY4BeE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbhmDOY4BeE&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcwZNXkIw7U&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcwZNXkIw7U&feature=relmfu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41wuFOTByp8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41wuFOTByp8&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oikDoKBqup0&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oikDoKBqup0&feature=relmfu)
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Nice post Rastus.
I watched the first one and it was informative. I'll catch the other two later.
FQ13
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Jay,
I sent a PM with my email address. FYI
I have learned that there is a big difference in shooting a gun and being able to fight with one. I grew up hunting and shooting and have 5 decades of practice with that. Fighting with a gun is quite different. The first video provides some of the basics on how to work the AR properly for a fight. The others drill to sharpen that a bit. I train regularly with one of the instructors in the video.
Classes are expensive and these vids are a good beginning on the basic foundation on fighting with the AR. Take and modify these for your home defense.
There is a conspicuous absence of failure drills....malfunctions are a part of life and should be addresssed with training. Failure drills suck and ruin a good range day but they are what they are.
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Replied...and thanks. I agree with that statement. Like anything, practice and practical use is different than life-and-death use. I would think that although we'll do target work with the AR platform, it will be poised at home to go into service if we ever have need of a dealing with a mob. For general HD we've got a handgun plan that we're comfortable with.
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Snap caps or dummy rounds inserted randomly in your training mags will give you failure drill practice.
Or really cheap ammo ;D
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Snap caps or dummy rounds inserted randomly in your training mags will give you failure drill practice.
Or really cheap ammo ;D
Yup...I didn't post anything with failure drills because 1) I hate them so much and 2) I was going overtime to post what I did. If you take a Magpul mag and trim the lip in a certain way you can get some honest to goodness double feeds that jam up everything....it is particularly evil for training.
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Heck, FQ...everyone is in the AR parts business these days.... Wal-mart has BLACKHAWK! aluminum hand guards with rails and covers for around a $100.
And then there's any price you care to pay here:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ar+handguard&sprefix=ar+hand%2Caps%2C201
Every wally world in my area has AR's for $700 to $1100 (depending on the model. I just bought two DPMS M4 carbines for $650 each, out the door, at an area gun store............ which is about $150 less than normal for most gun stores, but I had connections. ;D
Now I'm researching sights and scopes and such also.
Be careful with Wal-Mart and their BLACKHAWK! Items. I noticed the other day they had holsters that were labeled BLACKHAWK! However on closer inspection I found that they were in fact knock offs. I was a little irate that a company would so blatantly use the Blackhawk logo like that to sell cheap gear. So much so that I took a picture and sent an email to BLACKHAWK. I believe they make the absolute best gear out there ad I would hate to see their reputation get tarnished like that.
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Be careful with Wal-Mart and their BLACKHAWK! Items. I noticed the other day they had holsters that were labeled BLACKHAWK! However on closer inspection I found that they were in fact knock offs. I was a little irate that a company would so blatantly use the Blackhawk logo like that to sell cheap gear. So much so that I took a picture and sent an email to BLACKHAWK. I believe they make the absolute best gear out there ad I would hate to see their reputation get tarnished like that.
Wow!!!
Thanks for that piece of info........ Now I will have to take a close look also.
+1 on the quality of BLACKHAWK! items.
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I'm definitely no expert on these types of guns but:
My first, about two years ago was a gift from my mom-in-law. At the time, I just said maybe a .308 as I was thinking hunting deer/plinking combo gun. I received a Rock River LAR 8 with a EOTech holographic sight. I wasn't able to pick it out but smiled ;D ;D a lot anyway. I probably wouldn't have spent that kind of money but wasn't going to say "No thank you". Trouble is the gun is HEAVY and not the easiest to carry in the woods, even with a sling.
My second, I bought myself. A Stag Arms 5.56 gas piston carbine type with flip up iron sights. Love it. The .308 stays home most days if hunting deer and still carry my trusty Marlin .35 lever gun. 20 year old military surplus ammo for horsing around is cheap for both, especially tracers, especially if bought in quantity. Just have to be careful if it is dry. Don't want to start a woods fire. I've never done this and may be an old wives tail but don't want to risk it.
No more than I shoot, the gas piston is probably over rated. I'm looking for a .22 conversion now for the 5.56 and found out I'll have to take the piston out for it to work.
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It's no wives tale. All of us who fired MG's in the service spent time putting out grass fires on the range.
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Well, I joined the club. Drove 2-1/2 hours each way to pick up an EBR build from another NJGunForum member. One good thing is that it's already NJ compliant (...don't even ask).
Public thanks to Rastus and FQ are in order. I was looking at different stuff and ran some rigs by Rastus. He picked them apart enough technically and tactically that I understood a good bit more. FQ weighed in with some observations that made sense as well. When I saw the one I eventually got I realized it was more what I was looking for. Got a decent price and it seems practically brand new. I'll have to get out to the range next weekend and give a report.
Where to get 15 rd mags. The one with it is a 20 rd pinned for 15.
Oh...picture with my fuzzy cell phone:
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll237/jaybethel/arst-15.jpg)
There's a big old shock absorber in that skeleton buttstock- hopefully keep Maggie from spending too much unexpected time on her little backside.
Also, it didn't come with toes.
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Very cool and congrats, Jay........ that thing has 'evil' dripping from every crevice. ;)