The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Combat Diver on October 20, 2009, 01:58:06 AM
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This week I've been offered a deal on a Special Forces special addition on a Glock 30 (SF,C,RTF) in .45 ACP. Now, I'm not a Glock fan as I've shot them and never like the feel, granted they work and always seem to. My question is how does the Glocks handle reloads and especially with lead bullets? I cast 95% of my 45 ACP bullets for my M1911 and would continue to shoot lead through the Glock if I get it.
Thanks in advance.
CD
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The barrels don't use standard cut threads to get clogged with the lead.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3672771/Glock-Manual-17-17L-19-20-21-22-23-24
I know it doesn't list the G30, but the barrels manufactured with the same finish and threads. Doesn't say anything about not using lead in there.
I LOVE my G30. Heavy for a CCW gun IMO, but otherwise perfect!
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I love my G30 and my 21 also but I would never should lead in them. Glock says not to do it. Just don't do it.
The polygonal rifling is not made to shoot lead thru. After enuff lead gets deposited (there are no deep cut grooves for the lead to collect in) the pressures go way up. keep it up and sooner or later the gun will explode in your hand and you may be minus some fingers or an eye or two. if you've got plenty of those to spare, go ahead.
I strongly advise against the practice. If you just must then vigorously brush and swab the lead out reliigiously after every 50 or no more than 100 rounds.
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And I am not just repeating an old wives tale. I personally know of 2 40 caliber Glocks that became bombs from shooting lead and not keeping the lead fastidiously out.
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OTOH:
You can get a replacement barrel that is traditional land/groove and shoot lead up a storm.
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Few, very few, shooters actually know the proper way to clean lead out of their barrels. Add to that, most lead bullets are related to reloads, which ANY manufacturer will consider the warranty voided. Yes, I know, "MY reloads" have never caused a problem. Most gun companies service departments have folks who specialize in resolving problems with reloads. No company can possibly warranty a gun for every possible reload that might have a chance for going through any particular firearm.
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The .45's still have octagonal, not polygonal rifling. My 21 has digested thousands upon thousands of lead bullets.
Technical specifications
http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm
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an octagon is a polygon
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon)
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an octagon is a polygon
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon)
True but I believe Glock went from 8 sided to 12 or 16 sided.
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In a Glock, the difference between octagonal and polygonal, is the shape, and the twist, but the shape is what makes the big difference. The octagonal, are square shaped lands and grooves, like 99% of the barrels on the planet, the polygonal rifling, has rounded lands and grooves, if you own a Glock, pull out or just open the slide and with a good backlight, look through the barrel::), you will see the difference. The polygonal rifling allows for less friction on a jacketed bullet, but still with good engraving on the projectile, it also allows soft bullets, ( lead ) to kind of skate through the bore, skipping through the rifling, rather than engraving. This skipping, leaves deposits, heavier than normal.
Yankee fist, then why are there 2 terms?? Geometry does not equal reality sometimes.
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an octagon is a polygon
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon)
Yankee fist, then why are there 2 terms?? Geometry does not equal reality sometimes.
A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square ;)
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I was told at the Glock Armorer Class this year not to use lead bullets. At our range, a guy has been fortunate enough not to get himself hurt twice by shooting lead bullets out of his Glocks and they have blown up twice. Of course this also voids the warranty and he has to purchase another Glock. I cannot remember at the moment but I think he is on his third or fourth Glock at the moment. I will let you guys now if he blows up another cause I still think he uses home made lead ammo.
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an octagon is a polygon
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygon)
Now that you made me think about it so aren't squares and triangles.
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I was going to buy a Glock but now I'm having second thoughts.
I like bullet proof guns and these things are starting to sound a little finicky.
I don't need one, just don't have one so I figured that is reason enough to buy one.
(plus the wife said it was OK)
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One thing that alot of people still do, but can be very dangerous is to shoot a FMJ after they have shot a bunch of lead thru a gun... DO NOT DO IT, it can increase the presure drasticly, not only can you damage the gun, but you can also hurt yourself/ others around you.
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I have 5 glocks and stick to FMJ rule. I do have one question, can XD's use lead?
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I was going to buy a Glock but now I'm having second thoughts.
I like bullet proof guns and these things are starting to sound a little finicky.
I've had my hands on rental range Glock pistols that have had over 300K rounds through them. Two at west coast ranges that can brag on the $$ they've made off of one pistol, in ammo sales. Modest and infrequent maintenance has kept them going. The gun buying public has kept the Glock lineup in the forefront of gun sales in the US. By a large measure...
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Based on the guns I've shot, if I were buying a DA semi auto, Glock would be my first choice, I don't shoot anything but jacketed bullets so I don't care about this.
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OK, I've been feeling left out not owning a Glock so I bought one this afternoon. Wasn't sure what to buy, but after listening to FQ13's rantings (crying) I went with the G27 .40 cal.
I can't believe I listened to FQ13.................. ;)
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OK, I've been feeling left out not owning a Glock so I bought one this afternoon. Wasn't sure what to buy, but after listening to FQ13's rantings (crying) I went with the G27 .40 cal.
I can't believe I listened to FQ13.................. ;)
You won't regret it.
I never really cared for Glocks....and then I bought a G27 (out of necessity) for size/weight concerns (for CCW) while going through physical therapy six years ago. It is a good shooting gun and the accuracy (at least of the one I have) is impressive for a barrel that short.
I still have more love and affection for my 1911's.....but the Glock has it's place too. ;) ;D
Congrats and enjoy.
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I don't know about the real kool ade guzzlers like Eric and Hawkfish (who is again among the missing, any one heard from him ? ) but in MY opinion Glocks are guns bought only for shooting. If you want aesthetic appeal, fine metal crafting, that sort of thing get a Ruger, S&W, or 1911. Those are the guns you will take out and fondle and admire. If you just want a reliable blaster you can forget about until you've got something to shoot, then get a Glock.
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Hey, you might not like my politics but I do have good taste in guns. ;D I will admit to agonizing a bit, but with a resourse like you guys, you'd be a fool not to ask. As for the G27, you will love it. Toms right, its not a display gun, but I can't think of anything I'd rather carry than that or the G26 or G30. Shoot the hell out of it. And don't use lead. Use FMJ for practice, its cheap. I think the boys at Glock know what they're talking about when they say avoid lead. Why take a chance to save a couple of bucks?
FQ13
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I don't know about the real kool ade guzzlers like Eric and Hawkfish (who is again among the missing, any one heard from him ? ) but in MY opinion Glocks are guns bought only for shooting. If you want aesthetic appeal, fine metal crafting, that sort of thing get a Ruger, S&W, or 1911. Those are the guns you will take out and fondle and admire. If you just want a reliable blaster you can forget about until you've got something to shoot, then get a Glock.
I have Rugers, Smith's, 1911, but I didn't have a Glock. Now I have to wait my 10 days and I'll have one. I'm also debating if I should just go ahead and order the 9 mm conversion barrel and a couple 9 mm mags as I have plenty of 9 mm ammo, but not much .40.
If I like it I will put it on my CCW, but then I'll have to decide which one to remove from it as I can only have 3 guns on it.
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Decisions decisions ;D
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I don't know about the real kool ade guzzlers like Eric and Hawkfish (who is again among the missing, any one heard from him ? ) but in MY opinion Glocks are guns bought only for shooting. If you want aesthetic appeal, fine metal crafting, that sort of thing get a Ruger, S&W, or 1911. Those are the guns you will take out and fondle and admire. If you just want a reliable blaster you can forget about until you've got something to shoot, then get a Glock.
::) Tish Tish... In my opinion Glock does infact have superb aesthetic appeal. And believe me I do fondle and admire my Glocks all the time. You are right about the reliable blaster part though.. they do.. do that ... and very well I might add. I shoot everything in my Glocks but heres the kicker... I clean my barrel religiously. I'd advise any Glocker to do the same. Man that koolaid tastes good!.... 8)
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My son finally sent me some pics of my NIB G19 RTF OD Frame w/night sights and SF Crest. I still think he is getting a better deal with me giving him my old Smith M29-2 6.5" P&R, presentation case and Old El Paso Saddlery #2 holster.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0340_G19.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0341_G19.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0341_CU_Crest.JPG)
CD
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My son finally sent me some pics of my NIB G19 RTF OD Frame w/night sights and SF Crest. I still think he is getting a better deal with me giving him my old Smith M29-2 6.5" P&R, presentation case and Old El Paso Saddlery #2 holster.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0340_G19.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0341_G19.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0341_CU_Crest.JPG)
CD
Uh,...... yes. ::)
Nice package, but a S&W 29? That's like "Please take my boxed and blueprinted 69 Camaro SS for a "new one"....it works, BUT.. :-\
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Mauserman...yes you can shoot lead in an XD although doing so will void the warranty as will shooting other than factory ammo!
Richard
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...you can shoot lead in an XD although doing so will void the warranty as will shooting other than factory ammo!
A couple of fine points.
--SA does not say using reloads WILL void the warranty. What they say is, ..."assumes no responsibility for damage and/or injury caused in whole or in part by handloaded, reloaded, remanufactured, or defective ammunition." Note that "defective ammunition" means factory ammo, too, so defective factory ammo is just as as bad as defective re-loads. While all manufacturers try to encourage you to use quality ammo, the whole statement is rather redundant. They could have just said, they're not responsible for defective ammo.
--SA says nothing about lead ammo....one way or the other.
---There is "factory" lead ammo.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=968825 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=968825)
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I'd rather be safe than sorry, I'll stick to factory ammo and my reloads. Thanx guys for the info.
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I agree mauserman. I'm all for saving money, and I will shoot cheap surplus crap on the range. BUT, I clean religously afterwards and wouldn't dream of having that stuff as "go to" ammo. A Glock is not a precision frearm. Its not fancy like a nice 1911 or a British SxS shotgun. Its just a tool. I compare a Glock to a fencing tool. A hammer, wire cutter, pliers and pry bar all in one. Not the best for any job, but good enough for all jobs. I think a Glock with good quality ammo and even half assed maintainence, is the second most reliable concealable firearm out there with the exception of a snubby. Its not the best at anything, but good enough for everything. Buy a snubby, a Kimber, or an XD and I won't quibble. But, I know my G-26 or G-19 will go bang and hit 4" at ten yards every time. What we want for SD is a reliable tool for an ugly job. In my opinion, if you follow the manual, you get AK performance out of a Glock. Are there better guns out there? Yes. Are you ever going to have your Glock fail you? No.
FQ13
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this from wiki, so take it as you will. Glock does use octagonal rifling in their .45, hexagonal in smaller calibers. I would just follow Glock's recommendations, it is their design.
How would cast bullets work in poly barrels?
Lead bullets and polygonal rifling
This section may contain original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding references. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed. More details may be available on the talk page. (September 2009)
The manufacturer Glock advises against using lead bullets (meaning bullets not covered by a copper jacket) in their polygonally rifled barrels, which has led to a widespread belief that polygonal rifling is not compatible with lead bullets. Firearms expert and barrel maker, the late Gale McMillan, has also commented that lead bullets and polygonal rifling are not a good mix. Some have made a point of the fact that neither H&K nor Kahr explicitly recommend against lead bullets in their polygonal rifled barrels, and feel that it is probable that there is an additional factor involved in Glock's warning. However, Kahr's FAQ does include a warning that lead bullets can cause additional fouling[5] and recommends special attention to cleaning after using them. In addition, while H&K doesn't warn against the use of lead, at least one well-documented catastrophic incident in an H&K pistol[6] appears to be related to this issue. Furthermore, Dave Spaulding, well-known gun writer, reported in the February/March 2008 issue of Handguns Magazine that when he queried H&K about their polygonally rifled barrels that they commented: "It has been their experience that polygonal rifling will foul with lead at a greater rate than will conventional rifling."
One suggestion of what the "additional factor involved in Glock's warning" might be is that Glock barrels have a fairly sharp transition between the chamber and the rifling, and this area is prone to lead buildup if lead bullets are used. This buildup may result in failures to fully return to battery, allowing the gun to fire with the case not fully supported by the chamber, leading to a potentially dangerous case failure. However, since this sharp transition is found on most autopistols this speculation is of limited value. The sharp transition or "lip" at the front of the chamber is required to "headspace" the cartridge in most autopistols.
Another possible explanation is that there are different "species" of polygonal rifle and perhaps Glock's peculiar style of polygonal rifling may be more prone to leading than the particular styles employed in the H&K and Kahr barrels.
Leading is the buildup of lead in the bore that happens in nearly all firearms firing high velocity lead bullets. This lead buildup must be cleaned out regularly, or the barrel will gradually become constricted resulting in higher than normal discharge pressures. In the extreme case, increased discharge pressures can result in a catastrophic incident.
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So defective factory ammo is just as as bad as defective re-loads.
Yes and no. One of the things that I have not seen addressed here concerning reloaded ammunition fired in Glocks involves the cases, not the bullets themselves. Glocks feed ammunition very well. Any ammunition. Hardball, as well as all of the flat point, personal defense ammo. They do this because of the unsupported chamber design that is incorporated into every Glock pistol, regardless of caliber.
As is often said in engineering, you don't get something for nothing. While this heavy throating delivers excellent feeding, and high shot to shot reliability, it causes the cases to bulge severely at the base upon firing. This is especially true with the heavier +P and +P+ ammunition all Glock pistols are rated for. When these cases are run through a full length resizing die the brass at the base of the cartridge case is worked very heavily in order to bring it back to factory SAAMI specifications. When brass is worked it becomes work hardened and brittle. This can cause the case to rupture on the next firing. This is especially true in heavy, major power factor handloads, and if the case should just happen to chamber in the same rotational position it was in when fired originally.
This is the reason Glock specifically states reloads, any reloads, regardless if they contain jacketed or lead bullets, should not be fired in their pistols. Yes, many people do shoot reloads in Glocks without incident, just as many drink and drive and get away with it. But with that said, the odds are against you if you choose to do it. For me the risk doesn't equal the reward.
The brass that has been fired in Glocks is by no means useless, it just needs to be fired in a supported chamber after reloading. There are aftermarket barrels avaliable for Glocks that have these type of chambers. This will negate the problem. I simply segregate my factory brass that has been run through my Glocks, and after reloading it, I shoot it in my Sig's, or other weapons that have a more supported condition in the rear of the chamber area. I also keep the pressure down in these reloads as well. All of this helps in not winding up with a ruptured case that can damage your firearm, as well as you, should it let go. Bill T.