The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: lhprop1 on March 14, 2013, 04:09:25 PM
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I don't know if there are any Enfield shooters here, but it's worth a try. I just picked up some 303 british from a friend. He said I can put a few rounds down range to decide if I want to buy it or not. My question is, does anyone happen to know anything about this stuff? I tried but I can't find anything.
1907 date
Headstamp is a triangle at 1:00 and something I can't quite make out at 11:00
Has anyone shot ammo this old before? There's no corrosion and the primers all look good.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/303a_zpsa8db782e.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/303b_zps7906f003.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/303c_zps0b6bbee4.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/303d_zps466558e9.jpg)
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Go here and E-Mail Steve Ridgeway about it. Try to include the pics. Steve is an expert on anything and everything concerning the .303 British Enfield and it's ammunition. I'm sure he can help.
http://www.303british.com/
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Can't help you with the headstamp but if they are fairly old they are most likely loaded with Cordite powder. Found a few at my local range a few years ago and pulled the bullets to see what the powder was. Long sticks of the stuff.
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THey will be corrosive. so clean the barrel out with water/windex. Then dry it out. do it asap.
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Also, be sure to hang on to those clips. Nice ones are getting hard to find.
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Thanks for the tips. I sent an email to Steve.
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I know nothing about this platform, but just wondering if this has some collector value, if it's truly 100+ years old. How plentiful are these rounds? I know of several other pre-WWII examples in other calibers that fetch a high price, especially if the box is present. Seems like everything older was used up in WWII.
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Steve emailed me back and said that while the stamp says "1907", it was actually manufactured in 1957 in Iraq.
I plan on putting a few down range this weekend to make sure they're still good and then paying for them.
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Since I can't give any facts I will just give you sage old advice:
Let a friend try it first, and if they survive it is all yours ;)
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Since I can't give any facts I will just give you sage old advice:
Let a friend try it first, and if they survive it is all yours ;)
What are you doing Saturday, buddy?
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+1
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Coming to your place to make empty brass ;D
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The wife was sick and I had to take care of junior this weekend so I couldn't make it to the range. I'm planning to head out on Wed with my buddy who sold me the ammo. We're also going to get to try out his new M14 and Garand.
I'll make sure to post a full range report.
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THey will be corrosive. so clean the barrel out with water/windex. Then dry it out. do it asap.
What is the best way to do this? I've never used corrosive ammo before. Do I mix windex and water or do I spray one then the other? Should I try and do it right at the range or is it ok if I wait until I get home about 30 min later?
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The way I was taught was - -
1. Spray douche the chamber until it runs out the barrel. (Windex is cheap, I used a lot - store brand is even cheaper)
2. Run a dry patch down the bore.
3. Repeat steps 1 & 2
4. Blast some WD40 in to help get rid of the water Windex has in it. (WD40 is cheap, I used a lot)
5. Dry patch again, wet WD40 patch down bore for ride home.
6. Take her home and clean as usual.
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The box of truth has some good cleaning info
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50 rounds, 50 bangs, and 50 holes in the paper. At 46 yards (max at the indoor range) 46 of the 50 hit the 8" target. Not bad for 57 year old ammo through a 72 year old rifle. Also not bad for a mediocre shooter with iron sights.
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What you've just experienced is why the Russians still use corrosive priming in most all of their ammo. They are all but fanatical about having ammunition that will last through long term storage. Mercuric Priming will outlast standard, non corrosive primers by a long time. That is not to say modern non corrosive primers used by our military won't last. They will, just not as long. Also they, (Mercuric Primers), are not as effected by temperature and humidity changes.
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I thought I would post this since we are talking about shooting corrosive ammo. I made up this little cleaner that works like a champ for cleaning out a barrel after shooting corrosive ammunition at the range. All it consists of is an alcohol dispenser that can be bought from from any well stocked hardware store or Home Depot, (Look in the Paint Dept.). Some clear neoprene hose, and a fired case of the caliber of your choice, and a piece of 1/4" brass tubing.
You'll need a #7 drill along with a 1/4-20 die as well. You can buy a Tap & Die set from Harbor Freight if you need to very inexpensively. I used a steel 7.62 X 54 MM Russian case, but brass will drill and tap easier. You can hold the case in a pair of vise grips if you don't have access to a small bench lathe. It helps to deprime the case if it is boxer primed.
Drill out the primer pocket with the #7 drill, then tap it 1/4-20 through. Take a small piece of 1/4" brass or copper tubing and run a 1/4-20 die over it about 3/8" or so down. The copper 1/4" tubing that comes with refrigerator ice maker kits works well too, if you have an extra piece laying around. Thread the brass or copper nipple you just made into the tapped primer hole, connect the neoprene tubing to the bottle and brass nipple and that's it. You can fill it with Windex, Simple Green, or just plain water.
I put a small O-Ring over the case neck and slid it down to the shoulder of the fired case so it makes a leak proof seal in the chamber. Remove your bolt, slip the case into the chamber, and with the muzzle pointed down, squirt the cleaning fluid of your choice down the bore and it will wash out all of the corrosive salts from your barrel until you get around to doing a more through cleaning when you get home from the range. I used some 5 minute epoxy to seal the threads on the nipple and case. I also have one of these cases made up for 7.62 X 39 MM for when I shoot corrosive ammo out of my AK's. It really works well and doesn't make a mess. If you want to get fancy you can take a tubing bender and make a 90 degree bend in the nipple, and it will be easier to insert into the short bolt actions some of these CZ 7.62 X 39 bolt guns come with. The photos may show the case and bottle slightly distorted because I cropped them.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/CorrosiveAmmoCleaner001_zpsf5a6e55b.jpg)
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/CorrosiveAmmoCleaner002_zps23a18950.jpg)
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Great idea!!!!!
Richard
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I should also mention that if you shoot a lot in hot weather, like we do here in Arizona, this makes an excellent barrel cooling device. while at the same time washes the corrosive salts out of your barrel. Just fill it with ice cold water. What I usually do when I go to the range in the warmer weather, is take an ice chest along filled with soda and ice tea. (No booze until the guns are cleaned and put away). My chest has a drain at the bottom to drain off excess water, all of which is clean and ice cold. I fill my bottle with it. Run some of it down a hot barrel and it will cool it down rapidly. You can also fill a empty plastic jug with water and freeze it the night before. When you get to the range set it out in the Sun. You'll be amazed at how fast it will melt.
Running Mil-Surp ammo through a Mosin or an AK in hot weather can heat up a barrel really quick. Waiting around for it to cool down on it's own on a 100+ degree day can take forever. This gets you back shooting again real quick, and removes corrosive primer residue at the same time.
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I should also mention that if you shoot a lot in hot weather, like we do here in Arizona, this makes an excellent barrel cooling device. while at the same time washes the corrosive salts out of your barrel. Just fill it with ice cold water. What I usually do when I go to the range in the warmer weather, is take an ice chest along filled with soda and ice tea. (No booze until the guns are cleaned and put away). My chest has a drain at the bottom to drain off excess water, all of which is clean and ice cold. I fill my bottle with it. Run some of it down a hot barrel and it will cool it down rapidly. You can also fill a empty plastic jug with water and freeze it the night before. When you get to the range set it out in the Sun. You'll be amazed at how fast it will melt.
Running Mil-Surp ammo through a Mosin or an AK in hot weather can heat up a barrel really quick. Waiting around for it to cool down on it's own on a 100+ degree day can take forever. This gets you back shooting again real quick, and removes corrosive primer residue at the same time.
Something I have wondered about, is it possible if the barrel is extremly hot and you pour cold water on or thru the barrel is there a possibilty of warping it.
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Something I have wondered about, is it possible if the barrel is extremly hot and you pour cold water on or thru the barrel is there a possibilty of warping it.
I don't think the water will cool it off fast enough to cause warping. I read an article by Rick Jameson some years back about a barrel cooling device that used liquid CO2 as a cooling agent. He said when applied it could cool down a barrel fast enough to cause it to frost up in just a few seconds. I would think shock cooling like that might cause issues. I generally don't let my barrels get that hot before cooling them. That way the temperature drop isn't so extreme.
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I should also mention that if you shoot a lot in hot weather, like we do here in Arizona, this makes an excellent barrel cooling device. while at the same time washes the corrosive salts out of your barrel. Just fill it with ice cold water. What I usually do when I go to the range in the warmer weather, is take an ice chest along filled with soda and ice tea. (No booze until the guns are cleaned and put away). My chest has a drain at the bottom to drain off excess water, all of which is clean and ice cold. I fill my bottle with it. Run some of it down a hot barrel and it will cool it down rapidly. You can also fill a empty plastic jug with water and freeze it the night before. When you get to the range set it out in the Sun. You'll be amazed at how fast it will melt.
Running Mil-Surp ammo through a Mosin or an AK in hot weather can heat up a barrel really quick. Waiting around for it to cool down on it's own on a 100+ degree day can take forever. This gets you back shooting again real quick, and removes corrosive primer residue at the same time.
That's a good idea. Thanks.
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From Empire Arms websight.
http://www.empirearms.com/clean.htm
How to properly clean after using corrosive ammo
This is how I do it... it's easy, it's fast, and it's effective. Best of all you can do it while still on the firing-line and thus not offend your significant other with the usually pungent stench of commercial cleaners in your home.
Dilute regular household ammonia (sudsy is best but regular is OK too) to 2/1 or 3/1 with water (it can be as much as 10/1 if the smell really gets to you). Keep in a small bottle to take with you to the range but label it well so you don't mistake it for contact-lens solution or something (yeeeowww!)
After you are done firing and while still at the range moisten (not dripping-wet, but sorta-soaked) a patch and run it down the bore and back once. This instantly will neutralize and dissolve the corrosive salt-compounds from the primers and start in on the copper and powder fouling with a vengeance.
Let stand for thirty seconds or so (just enough time to take off and throw away the ammonia-patch you just used and put a new, dry patch on your rod). Run the dry patch (or several) down the bore and you are most literally done.
DON'T OVERDO IT! More ISN'T better in this case...
You really don't want to slop ammonia (especially if heavily concentrated) all over the blued parts of the gun (as it will likely start to remove bluing after 30 minutes or so) and you also shouldn't leave the ammonia in the bore for an extended period of time (like hours, although I do know folks who do that anyway) as that may (not WILL, but MAY) cause "crazing" (microscopic pitting) of the metal. I also have to caution against slopping ammonia on the wooden parts of your rifle, as it will usually strip the finish down to bare-wood, BUT if you follow my advise on HOW MUCH ammonia to use (only enough to dampen, but not soak, a single patch per gun) you will not EVER experience ANY problems at all...
If you are worried about primer residue getting on the bolt-face you may want to quickly wipe it with the wet patch before throwing the thing away and quickly dry it. Same thing with the gas-tube in a semi-automatic rifle... don't go overboard, just wet it and dry it and get done with it.
As a final precaution (since the ammonia will also kill all lubricants and leave the metal very dry) you can run a patch of gun-oil down the bore and leave it like that for protection from the elements (just be sure to run a dry patch down the bore before shooting it again).
I've been cleaning guns this way (including *every* gun we sell) for nearly thirty years, and have never had rust form in any bore (even here in humid Florida).
However, if you are (like some folks I have met) completely obsessed about leaving traces of ANY powder or copper residue in the bore of your weapon, you can certainly follow up your "field-cleaning" with a detailed, strenuous, traditional cleaning once you are home (or in a week or month from then). But I warn you... your bore is much more be likely to be damaged from your over-enthusiastic scrubbing to get out that "last speck of copper" (which has no affect on the actual accuracy of your firearm) than it will with all the rounds you could possibly send down it during your lifetime.
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I've heard that Ammonia isn't really necessary to remove the salts in corrosive ammunition. The actual "salts" are small deposits that are left behind from the Mercuric priming mixture. The powder is no more corrosive than anything contained in commercial ammo. Any type of liquid will dissolve them. The best being hot, soapy water. Ammonia will dissolve copper fouling, but that won't cause corrosion.
The Russians still use Mercuric primers because they store longer than non corrosive primers. The Russians want small arms ammo that can survive a half century of storage. They were never a group that planned for peace. Some also say Mercuric primers offer more steady, constant ignition. That might be true because some military match .308 and .30-06 ammunition used them well into the 70's.
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Any one got any of the old military bore cleaner ?
Ought to work, since that's what it was made for.
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i am sure its something toxic that has long since been band tom.
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i am sure its something toxic that has long since been band tom.
Actually I think they just quit making it when the services started using LSA (Break Free ) for everything.
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I'm taking it to the outdoor range this weekend for some 200+ yard shots. It's a fun shooter. It's hard to believe that the Brits were expected to put 15 shots on target in a minute at 300 yards with this thing.
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When the Imperial German Army ran into the British Expeditionary Force (The Old Contemptible's ) at Metz in 1914 the volume of rifle fire convinced them they were facing machine guns.
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I know nothing about this platform, but just wondering if this has some collector value, if it's truly 100+ years old. How plentiful are these rounds? I know of several other pre-WWII examples in other calibers that fetch a high price, especially if the box is present. Seems like everything older was used up in WWII.
I've been shooting Enfields of every variety for more than 25 years now, and I can tell you you'd be hard pressed to find a better military bolt gun from that era. It's been said that the Germans built a hunting rifle, the US built a target rifle, and the Brits built a battle rifle (a paraphrase). I've always found the Enfield to be an excellent platform, and have a No. 4 Mk I that - before my eyes went south - I said would out shoot any bolt gun with irons out to 600 yards. And I never lost a challenge. That particular rifle was made in the first three weeks of production in 1939, and was as accurate as anything I'd ever had the pleasure of firing.
From your pics, it looks like you've got a No. 4 that's had the stock cut down - which would devalue it a good deal, but SARCO often has full stock sets at affordable prices (if you'd care to restore it). And there ARE a couple of excellent reference books available - as well as online sources - that can tell you the vintage, manufaturer, etc if you're interested.
Don't know how much ammo came with the gun, but I wouldn't shoot it all up right away, as finding surplus .303 is like searching for unicorns - and though you CAN buy new commercial stuff in both brass and steel cases, it ain't cheap. And those stripper clips are just as priceless, so cling to each and every one 'cause the commercial knock-offs aren't worth spit.
All in all I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the Enfield, and hopefully grow to love and appreciate it as many of us have. It's no Springfield '03 or Mauser K98 - but in many ways that's a good thing. On the other hand, it's no Mosin Nagant either (not that they're so bad). The Brits built a battle rifle that, with slight modifications along the way, carried them through WWI to Korea, and is still often seen in the hands of guerilla fighters in Africa and the Middle East (where some were hand-made knock offs). In the beginning stages of the Soviet's Afgahnistan campaign the Mujahadeen had little more than old Enfields and fared pretty well all things considered. tombogan3884's recounting of the battle of Metz in 1914 is a classic example of just how effective a well-trained force, armed with Enfiends, can be. The Brits made maximum use of their battle rifle for decades. It's just a shame that so many of them were forced to turn them over when Britain's "gun control" measures went into effect in the 70s and 80s - leaving many old veterans in tears as they handed over their prized possessions to be sent to the scrap heap.
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I've had it for a few years, but at $1.50/round for new ammo, I didn't get a chance to shoot it much.
I've tried to find out exactly what it is. It's not a Lithgow, but it's stamped
ShtLE
1941
Mk III*
From what I can find, the Mark III* (with the star) was a variation of the No 1, but it doesn't show the No 1's being made as late as 1941. I'll have to take some pics of the markings and get a more accurate account of what it is.
Regardless, it's a great shooter.