The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on July 24, 2016, 12:52:49 PM
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I have been thinking the last week, while driving, about a push for Federal Reciprocity for Carry Permits. I know we are in an election cycle, and this is a big piece of legislation, but when is a better time for grassroots to start something?
Can we as members here, the few who are actively left, you lurkers are welcome as well, start a conversation and prepare for a concerted effort to get our federal elected officials in both the House and Senate to act?
How difficult could it be to start? Here are some basics I though of already:
1. Every state must offer a Permit to Carry (please, please, please to not label this "concealed");
2. Each state dictates their own training requirements;
3. Federal age for Permit to Carry is 21;
4. States will be limited to restrictions on carry:
a. Private citizen can ban from their personal property;
b. Business must allow carry;
c. Public areas must allow carry;
d. Public buildings (governmental control and use) will only be allowed limited denial;
e. State may ban open carry, but unintentional exposure of firearm will not be a crime
5. Your Permit to Carry is controlled by your home state, but is recognized by all states;
6. Uniformity on disclosure to law enforcement
Your thoughts?*
* Do not go into a rant that this will never happen!
This is how our nation was formed, and how our government is supposed to act. We as citizens, and the true government, can do this if we choose. To paraphrase, steal, rewrite, a phrase from someone somewhere: No idea or movement is impossible or dead as long as there is one idiot willing to fight for it. We have plenty of freedom loving idiots on here. Are we willing to fight for this?
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While I am all for allowing carry with out a permit. I do very much believe in laws like texas 3006.
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I agree that we should have both purchase and carry without permits. Mark our ID that our Rights are restricted, but don't force us to earn our existing Rights.
As far as restricted carry by property owners, I addressed this in my list: You can deny in your home or private property, but a business cannot, and the government cannot on public property or most government buildings and facilities.
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Reciprocity? Reciprocity?
First file bills that overturn all federal gun control laws and nullifies state/local laws, then I'll talk about some compromise.
Let's see. First year I'll compromise by overturning all state and local gun laws. Then the next overturn the 1934 NFA and 1938 FFA Then next year well compromise on overturning 1968 till present.
Oh and reciprocity? Total waste of paper and ink. Shouldn't have been necessary in the first place.
Sorry. </rant>
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My purpose for this is that a permit answers their laziness in putting criminals away or marking our ID's, and the idea of nationwide reciprocity would nullify all the weenie restrictions.
By the way, my proposed plan would make all states Shall Issue.
Once we get this done, we go after the act of '34!
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..... marking our ID's,
A nationwide database of concealed carriers? What could possibly go wrong with that?
Sorry, I'm just in a very snarky mood over this and the election right now. Probably stay this way until November.
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I am actually for marking ID's, and I have brought it up many times.
Why do we have all the different layers of proving we can do something, when the government can just mark our ID that we are denied - Just like they do for driving when you must have a restriction or have lost the privilege for some reason. You aren't allowed to have or carry a firearm, the ID says so. Background checks solved, lists of who does nonexistent, available to any law enforcement or those who need to know with a simple ID check. Want to sell a gun at a gun show - Show me your ID and hand it over.
My reason for the permit is that it will be easier to sell a permit than Constitutional recognition of what was intended - Baby steps, but always forward. That is how abortion became a Right, sexual choice became a special class, and how we have lost the Second Amendment. Baby steps is how we gave it up!
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I agree that we should have both purchase and carry without permits. Mark our ID that our Rights are restricted, but don't force us to earn our existing Rights.
As far as restricted carry by property owners, I addressed this in my list: You can deny in your home or private property, but a business cannot, and the government cannot on public property or most government buildings and facilities.
businesses are a must for me. Most business owner spend more time there then at home at.
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What ID are we talking about?
If it is just for gun owners, I don't like it.
If it is a national ID that everyone must carry, I don't like that much either...but not I like it more than a Gun Owner ID.
But I do see that some type of ID is virtually active anyway.
I have a driver's license and I'd bet every law enforcement agency has some type of access to it.
Perhaps an ID that incorporates them all...Driver's License notations....just NOT for owning a gun....put the restrictions on it regardless if the holder is a gun owner or not
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National reciprocity should be the 2nd Amendment, period.
The 4th amendment says so... and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation,...."
So, the 2nd grants the right, the 4th protects it with due process. Owning a firearm and carrying it across state lines, SHOULD already exist unless and until the Fed can determine that the 4th is void due to criminal history or other violations for any given citizen of the United States of America.
.02
Remember Gowdy's route of the "no fly list" to the pinhead trying to explain it? Same thing...what other right is restricted without due process?
None...at least not yet...
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Solus, Your driver's license
TAB, Then we go back to allowing business to allow s.oking, ignore ADA, and segregation is legal again
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Count me with Timothy.
"Shall not be infringed" shouldn't be that hard to comprehend.
As for marking licenses, sure, lets have an instant list of every gun owner in the nation. It worked out so well in 1930's Germany didn't it.
No compromise, EVER.
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First, turn up your comprehension and note that I Sai mark your I'd if you are inelligable, and permit for those who are, if we go there. I never said list of or registry of those who have and do participate.
I agree with you and Uncle Ted, we have our permits already in the Constitution. However, do you think that in this climate we could go that far from where we are today in a single step in the next 18 months?
Get the entire nation open to carry, repeal 1934 and some other crap, then when the streets still aren't running red with blood, Constitutional 2nd Amendment.
However, first things first. We need to take the gift handed us this weekend of total lack of respect for the law (insert Jackie here), and her total lack of respect for the American public and run Hillary out of here on a rail!
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Solus, Your driver's license
TAB, Then we go back to allowing business to allow s.oking, ignore ADA, and segregation is legal again
I am ok with that actually. If thats what the owner wants, there is this wonderful thing called socail media, any business that does it will be publicly shamed and go under.
Ps as an expert when it comes too ada, trust me its a load of crap. They change things on a 3 year cycle. The last cycle they changed the braille requirements. Everything had to be grade 1. Not 2 ( grade 1 is the alphabet, grade 2 is simple short hand, yeah I didn't know either) there was such an up roar from the. Lind community, that they changed it back last year.... now I personally installex 600k worth in signs and recommend another 2.8 million worth thru consulting... guess where they are all now? It was done twice. Then there was the hotel light switch height change of 2 " that they made not for new construction, but all existing rooms, long story ahort 8 billon with a n estimated cost to retro fit, thankfully. The hotels sued and won. Now there is the proposed transgender bathrooms...you don't want too know what thats going to cost. Rough estimates have seen are any where from 15- 40k per stall to comply.
Don't even get me started on "drive by lawsuits"
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Any indication on your license is a de facto registration.
And yes, with Trump winning the election I think it's the perfect time to go for all the marbles.
THERE IS NO ANTI GUN MOVEMENT.
What there is, is Micheal Bloomberg, George Soros, the Dem party and their astro turf front groups.
I'll compromise on one thing, any business that wants to can put up "no guns " signs.
BUT they are legally responsible for providing adaquet on site security.
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First, turn up your comprehension and note that I Sai mark your I'd if you are inelligable, and permit for those who are, if we go there. I never said list of or registry of those who have and do participate.
I agree with you and Uncle Ted, we have our permits already in the Constitution. However, do you think that in this climate we could go that far from where we are today in a single step in the next 18 months?
Get the entire nation open to carry, repeal 1934 and some other crap, then when the streets still aren't running red with blood, Constitutional 2nd Amendment.
However, first things first. We need to take the gift handed us this weekend of total lack of respect for the law (insert Jackie here), and her total lack of respect for the American public and run Hillary out of here on a rail!
I get what you're saying M, but...we can't get voters identified at the polls with an ID of any kind! What makes you think that marking a DL with some disqualifying mark would get past those that fight voter ID? How about the sex offender registry? How about drunken assholes who drive with or without a license. How about those people that are just plain assholes?
Reminds me of a Carlin joke.. "all drivers should have one of those suction cup dart guns and when someone cuts you off on the highway, you shoot their bumper with one of those little darts. When they have ten darts on their bumper, the cops pull them over and give 'em a ticket for being an asshole!"
Paraphrasing Carlin...
I'm not saying anything is a bad idea but though we own congress now, we may not tomorrow.. I hope I'm wrong..
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You know, disqualifies on any ID will be just as effective as background checks through an FFL. Criminals will neither buy through a FFL or anyone who wants to check their ID...
I guess having it in place for honest folks might grease the rails for national reciprocity though...
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Side note... And I'm not defending the People's Republic of MA...
EVERYONE in MA who possess a MA LTC (License to Carry) is PRE-qualified to buy a long gun or handgun! Without one, an FFL, gun show seller, et al. won't even allow you to handle a firearm in a gun store or anywhere, nor will they allow you to buy ammunition or accessories!
I recently had to show my LTC to buy a speedloader for my wheel gun at Cabela's..
Thoughts?
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First thought is "Mass sux".
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Tru dat, Tom!
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Any indication on your license is a de facto registration.
Here's one of those rare times when I have to disagree with you, Tom.
As I see this, all drivers' licenses would be issued with a mark that confirms eligibility to purchase-own-carry a firearm UNLESS the licensee has forfeited those rights by committing a felony, domestic offense, or some other disqualifying factor.
Under those circumstances, the mark would be missing.
Upon conviction of a qualifying offense, the licensee would be issued a new license and the old license with the confirming mark would be destroyed.
Just because you might have the confirmation mark on your driver's license would have nothing to to do with whether or not you own a firearm. It would simply confirm that you MAY LEGALLY OWN a firearm.
No firearm records would be associated with your license. No enforcement bureaucracy would need be created to enforce anything since the DL Bureau already exists as do the court systems. Upon conviction, you would surrender your license and be issued a new one with no confirmation mark.
Simple, huh?
Hazcat came up with this idea some years ago. Seems to me it's all benefit and no unwanted impact on gun ownership.
Crusader Rabbit
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CR gets it, except I propose the opposite: innocent until proven guilty - Mark your I'D when you have forfeited your rights.
We already do this for driving: You forfeit your privilege to drive, and something is done immediately to your license to indicate an issue, your temporary designates the change, and your new permanent is marked. Immediate verification for all who need to know.
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Now that MA has made it illegal to give illegal immigrants driver's licenses, (the previous admin (D) was pushing it down the road), your previous ideas may work. MA still requires that all firearms bought in the state be registered with the bureau as are ALL private handgun sales..
The registry exists, we all know it does regardless of what the .govs say!
Long road..
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There is no need for marks or anything on a DL.
The 2nd Amendment is the sole authority for Federal Reciprocity.
If you can own a gun, you should be able to carry that gun....ANYWHERE.
If I am a law-abiding citizen with the right to own and possess a firearm, I shouldn't have to bear the responsibility of providing on the spot proof.
If I break the law and am detained for any reason, the same information is available to the police that is used when background checks are performed at the time a gun is purchased. The burden is on them to determine the validity of possession.
Background checks should remain a standard for purchase with no waiting period and no fee.
This is the one area that does make sense as a safety net.
CCW permits become optional, and like in Georgia, possession of said permit removes the need for NICS check at purchase.
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What did the founders regulate ?
Not a damned thing.
Not repeaters, like the "Puckle gun", not state of the art naval guns, not mortars, nothing.
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That is where I'm headed Tom! Reciprocity frst, 1934 second (along with other crap), and finally Constitutional Carry.
Each step I laid out in my first post was neutral to looser nationwide. In the political realm it is unwise to go for every thing in a single step, but rather to take step after step until you reach the end goal. That is how other changes and our losses have happened and how we must take them back.
Step one is no Clinton in office and maximum power in the Legislative Branch.
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That is where I'm headed Tom! Reciprocity frst, 1934 second (along with other crap), and finally Constitutional Carry.
Each step I laid out in my first post was neutral to looser nationwide. In the political realm it is unwise to go for every thing in a single step, but rather to take step after step until you reach the end goal. That is how other changes and our losses have happened and how we must take them back.
Step one is no Clinton in office and maximum power in the Legislative Branch.
That's step one to keeping an actual country, never mind rights.
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I ran across a "Forgotten Weapons" video where Ian discusses the fact that educational efforts, and museums are only possible because of the 2A.
I was going to link to it but found another of his videos I had to watch, then another, at this rate I'll never get my E mail out of the way. LOL.
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Found it !