The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: tstand on February 04, 2012, 10:36:35 PM
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A friend suggested a shotgun would be a good choice for home defense and skeet would train me to shoot well at a moving targets, including a bad guy in my home.
Is skeet shooting a useful way to train for defensive use of a shotgun for home defense?
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A shot gun is definitely a good home defense gun. If you live in an apartment use shot so you don't kill your neighbors.
Anything that involves moving targets should be good training.
In WWII fighter pilots and bomber crews were taught aerial gunnery by shooting skeet.
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you have to lead a moving target. that is the gun's muzzle has to be out in front of the target when the gun fires.
chances are you will be using a gun, any gun, at across the room distances, on a human sized target. so chances are leading the target isn't necessary.
and it kinda scares me to think that the only situation you would need to lead a human target would be if it is running away, and shooting a person in the back as they are running away is bad, Bad BAD!
I would think the only thing beneficial about skeet/trap/sporting clays with respect to a home defense or self-defense situation is that you do become quite familiar with how to manipulate your shotgun.
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Trigger time is trigger time. Any time you are shooting a gun properly in any given sport you are training for use of that gun.
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Good points, thanks!
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Just about any trigger time that gets the ol' eye/hand thingy working is a plus.. But are you going to use a "skeet" shotgun with a long barrel, or a defensive shotgun? Pump or semi?
Be advised that at SD distances, which are usually 7yds. or less, the shot and pattern will be substantially different than a flying target.
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I will probably get a pump shotgun with an 18" barrel for home defense and get a second, longer barrel for skeet shooting.
My friend suggested a 20 gauge, mostly for my wife's sake.
I watched a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFmPZMtaSI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFmPZMtaSI)where a tester looked at how much penetration of a wall would occur for different types of shot.
The shot with a wide spread and some but not full penetration of the "wall" was....
Winchester Super-X (2 3/4" #2 drylok steel)
Winchester Xpert Hi-Vel (2 3/4" #3 steel and #4 steel)
I think this means this would be good defensive shot for home defense, if wall penetration was to be avoided.
Is this skeet shot? Sorry I don't know anything about this stuff.
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I recall a young skeet shooter, 11 or 12, dispatching 2 burglars after school one day up in Montana a few years ago. She shot one from up the stairs, DOA and the other ran away IIRC. Seems like it helped her with home defense.
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The hard part is to get the bad guys to hold those orange disks center of mass... :)
I have a shotgun with #6 hunting loads available as option 1.
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Is this skeet shot? Sorry I don't know anything about this stuff.
Skeet is generally shot with a #7-1/2 to #9.
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How does recoil of skeet compare with the types mentioned in the youtube video?
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How does recoil of skeet compare with the types mentioned in the youtube video?
There are too many variables to determine what YOUR felt recoil would be for a particular load.
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My first response when I read this yesterday was "what? I don't think so." Then I thought about it a little more and continued to read other responses. I have since changed my initial opinion. While I don't think skeet shooting is necessarily a good analog for home defense practice, it will help you gain a lot of knowledge operating and shooting your shotgun, especially since you're very new to them. Skeet shooting should definitely help you improve your hand/eye coordination while teaching you to focus on hitting small moving targets. Plus, any good trigger time will help.
I think it would also be beneficial to get some silhouette type targets, some shells with different shot sizes, different choke tubes if they are an option with your gun, and "pattern" your gun at ranges you expect to encounter inside your home. What I mean by that is to place the target at an expected distance, aim center of mass, and shoot. You'll be able to get an idea how shot size, choke, and distance all affect the spread of the shot. For example, smaller shot, more open choke, and greater distance typically mean more spread.
As to shot size/type. There's a lot of discussion and debate on what works best for defense. It depends on your home construction (layout and materials), proximity to neighbors, and how many people live there, as well as, what you are comfortable with. If over penetration is a concern and distance to target is minimal, small shot such as used for skeet should work fine. I personally have my home defense shotgun loaded with #8 shot. The pellets are small, but, at short apartment distances out of a tight choke, they don't spread much and hit together. I personally try to minimize spread because I am already using undersized shot (If overpenetration/collateral damage weren't a factor, I would prefer to use buckshot.). Keep in mind, real life isn't like the movies; your shotgun isn't going to blow a perfect 1ft diameter hole in a wall from 5ft away. You can miss with a shotgun. This is where the skeet shooting and learning to hit small targets comes back into play. We're generally taught to aim center of mass; however, smaller rounds increase the need for better shot placement (i.e. aiming for the head instead of the chest). Don't get me wrong, shot placement is critical to whatever you're shooting, but a smaller projectile has less room for error.
You brought up steel shot. I personally would avoid it for personal protection. It's just too light in my opinion. You're already reducing shot diameter; so, reducing shot weight additionally just isn't good in my opinion. You have to find a balance of penetrating the bad guy enough while reducing over penetration through the bad guy or a miss.
For the record, I am not nor claim to be an expert. I am simply adding my opinion and thoughts to discussion. What is most important is finding a gun, ammo, and system that works for you and practicing with it.
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When I shot skeet I think I was using #8 shot with 3" shells. Would this be a decent load for home defense?
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Your longest shot in Home defense, (barring war, riot or other armed stand off ) will be across the room, probably 5 yards or less.
#8 should be fine for that, if you are using a 12 ga there is no need to go bigger than 2 3/4in shell length.
As has been posted before If you don't live in an apt. or don't have neighbors near by heavier shot, such as buck shot, can be used
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When I shot skeet I think I was using #8 shot with 3" shells. Would this be a decent load for home defense?
Trap and skeet loads are #8 or #7 1/2 in 2 3/4". When you are talking about shots within a house or apartment these loads will kill. Remember that in that ten yard (30') range the spread isn't much more than 6".
Think about it: 1 1/8 ounces of lead coming at you at 1,100 feet per second. That is 492 grains of lead and a plastic wad (remember that when shooting at corrugated cardboard the wad will punch through on most twenty foot shots) coming at you. A .45 acp is 235 grain at 850 feet per second.
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Well this is very welcomed advice. I know I can easily handle the recoil of the skeet shot, and I bet my wife can, too.
This also makes me think I'll go with the 12 guage over the 20, if we are using skeet.
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Due to it being a little heavier gun, felt recoil in the 12 ga shouldn't be much more, if any, than the 20 ga.
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The latest greatest is the "Low Recoil" loads available...they make a substantial diff. in felt recoil. Winchester/Federal and I believe Remington all make a lower recoil shot....
Get to the range, set up a man size target at 5-7 yds. "bird" shot makes a hole the size of a baseball at that range, with several pellets in the periphery.
step up to 2 3/4" 00Buck 9 pellet Winchester low recoil loads, and it makes a ragged hole in the target. I can shoot 1 gallon plastic water jugs at my local range, and the effect is much more visual....
Get some range time, get some with your wife also... Than move up to melons....It's very humbling to know what a 12g does at a SD distance.
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I hope not cause I absolutely suck at skeet! :'(
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Wondering if a 20 ga would suit my wife better. She is 5 ft but is pretty strong.
If we went with a 20 ga, what would be a comparable load to a 12 ga load 2 3/4" #8?
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I wrote a long post in the thread about SD statistics, short version for here is that you might want to consider a second gun for her such as the 9MM carbine.
To answer your question about the 20 ga.
2.75 inch seems to be the most common
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/browse/ammo-shotgun-20-ga.aspx?c=97&s=943&stk=1
although 3 inch loads are available
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Wondering if a 20 ga would suit my wife better. She is 5 ft but is pretty strong.
If we went with a 20 ga, what would be a comparable load to a 12 ga load 2 3/4" #8?
The added weight and bulk of a 12 ga makes the felt recoil minimal between 12 and 20. Fitting the gun is more important, and you have more options in a 12 ga. If you are looking for comparable loads there will be just as much recoil in the 20 ga.
Go to the gun shop and look at youth 12 ga with shorter barrels. There are a lot of options out there, and I'm sure she will find something comfortable.
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I wrote a long post in the thread about SD statistics, short version for here is that you might want to consider a second gun for her such as the 9MM carbine.
To answer your question about the 20 ga.
2.75 inch seems to be the most common
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/browse/ammo-shotgun-20-ga.aspx?c=97&s=943&stk=1
although 3 inch loads are available
Excellent. Thanks. We shot the Hi Point and I've heard good things about it overall, plus it is cheap.
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The added weight and bulk of a 12 ga makes the felt recoil minimal between 12 and 20. Fitting the gun is more important, and you have more options in a 12 ga. If you are looking for comparable loads there will be just as much recoil in the 20 ga.
Go to the gun shop and look at youth 12 ga with shorter barrels. There are a lot of options out there, and I'm sure she will find something comfortable.
Hmm, I did not consider fit, only weight. I'd like her to try out skeet shooting like I did to see if she is comfortable with a shotgun. Based on that, we can either go with a shotgun or a 9 mm carbine.
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The quick check on length of pull is to bend the strong eye arm 90 degrees, place the butt of the stock in the crook of the elbow, and the mid point between the most distal joint and tip of the trigger finger should match with the trigger.
The following two videos will help demonstrate another method and help explain:
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I'd rather use birdshot for HD as suggested by earlier posters. However I came across an article on "Box o Truth" saying it does not penetrate enough to reach vital organs. ???
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
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You can always load the second round a slug.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.
It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
It's worth noting that it may not have killed him, but it made him stop doing what got him shot and that is the objective of home defense.
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I'd rather use birdshot for HD as suggested by earlier posters. However I came across an article on "Box o Truth" saying it does not penetrate enough to reach vital organs. ???
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Next time I'm embalming one I'll give you a call, and you can see how deadly #8 light trap loads can be. Physics and theory are all fine and dandy, but I work elbow deep in the stuff that proves there can be a difference between laboratory and computer models, and real world application.
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You can always load the second round a slug.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.
It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
It's worth noting that it may not have killed him, but it made him stop doing what got him shot and that is the objective of home defense.
It's also one of the reasons I said earlier that you made need to take head shots. A shot or two to the chest will slow him down at least and that is where I would start if possible. However, a head shot is more likely to knock his lights out in one way or another (dead, unconcious, blind, etc.). It's also worth noting that I keep spare shells on my shotgun with at least 2 shells of buckshot that I can transition to if necessary. Most importantly, train with your weapon and rounds; you need to be able to take accurate shots as quickly as possible. Keep shooting till he is no longer a threat (ie, running away, on the ground, dead).
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Wow, again, very helpful advice! This forum is great. ;D
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Wow, again, very helpful advice! This forum is great. ;D
We prefer warped and twisted ;D
Welcome aboard!