The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: gunman42782 on November 22, 2007, 04:38:31 AM

Title: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: gunman42782 on November 22, 2007, 04:38:31 AM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&mode=related&search
Title: Re: For your friends that think it can't happen here....
Post by: red rider on November 23, 2007, 06:07:29 AM: Oh man, that makes me so damned mad! I've heard the story of that little old lady before, but not seen the footage. That was just wrong in every way, those cops should be ashamed of themselves.

Ultimate responsibility is on the shoulders of the leaders of their community, but the cops had no business in tackling that woman.

The cops were instructed to confiscate the guns, they were just blindly following orders, I suppose they could have walked off the job if they disagreed with the policy, or more easily, turned a blind eye to the law abiding citizens protecting their lives and property.

What happens next time? Next earthquake, tornado, or other disaster? I dont want to give up any of mine as I'm sure no one else here does. Where is the line you've drawn?
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: garand4life on November 23, 2007, 07:05:58 AM: If this were to happen again, what can you do? When you have LE on the doorstep armed and demanding your firearms what do you do?
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: Pathfinder on November 23, 2007, 07:56:03 AM: Tom Gresham interviewed the author of The Great New Orleans Gun Grab last Sunday, and as I listened in the car, I became more and more furious at what was done - and how willingly police from around the country helped out. As one LA resident pointed out, "Do you think those guys traveled all the way from New York City and didn't want to shoot someone?" Tom devoted almost half of his 3 hours to this one interview.

And the assaults didn't stop once in custody. One man in NO, a well-known local figure and lawyer, was shot 4 times with beanbag rounds while in the jail cell - for loudly protesting his arrest. Assaulted with a firearm because he was annoying the guard. The lawyer had just that noon filed a class-action lawsuit against NO and LA to stop the police state actions.

Gresham and the author both agreed when you have MP5's pointed at your chest, you give up your firearms. Otherwise you end up a martyr. Gresham made the observation in the form of a question that maybe this means you have some firearms somewhere else. That question was sadly not pursued.

Our police forces have been militarized to an absolutely unacceptable degree. That change has attracted a very undesirable element into the forces, people who crave the "action", people looking for their "big case" to move up the ladder, people who are more than willing to obey any order - legal or otherwise (there was no basis in LA or NO law for Nagin's and the Chief's orders).

This is a major problem for us and others who believe in all of our freedoms, something we would do well to address now rather than when it hits the fan. Any ideas on how to deal with this issue?
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: 2HOW on November 23, 2007, 09:30:01 AM: Alot of states have put in place the emergency powers act that will not let any type of confiscation take place. Tennessee adopted it recently, along with the castle doctrine that not only applies to the home but the conveyance as well. What happened there was the worst kind of martial law, and I hope the country took a hard look and it will not happen anywhere again. I am sure that there are towns that we would of seen bloodshed if it happened to them. MOLON LABE
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: Pathfinder on November 23, 2007, 01:53:02 PM: Quote from: 2HOW on November 23, 2007, 09:30:01 AM
Alot of states have put in place the emergency powers act that will not let any type of confiscation take place. Tennessee adopted it recently, along with the castle doctrine that not only applies to the home but the conveyance as well. What happened there was the worst kind of martial law, and I hope the country took a hard look and it will not happen anywhere again. I am sure that there are towns that we would of seen bloodshed if it happened to them. MOLON LABE

What you say is true, and there is a federal law as well, enacted after Katrina and NO's egregious violations. And martial law was never decalred in NO - there is no provision for it under LA law.

My point, however, is that these laws will not prevent problems in the future. Consider:

1. Nothing happened to any of the officers involved in the illegal seizures, the assaults on law-abiding citizens, etc. - nothing!. Do you think maybe police officers around the country noticed this? Do you think legal repercussions of their actions will slow them down in the future?

2. We are in the same boat as a woman who has obtained a protective order against an estranged abuser. We have the law on our side, but that is of little consequence when Bubba - without or with a badge - comes through the door with a gun.

3. Molon labe is great, amen, Brother, and all that. At 4 in the morning when the SWAT team comes through your door in force, they have answered your Molon Labe challenge at a point where you are most likely at your weakest. Even in broad daylight, if you are at ease and a van shows up with 4 armed and armored police, you have some serious thinking to do in virtually no time, to react how you wish.

As Congress passes more and more laws - and SCOTUS upholds them like McCain-Feingold - our rights, freedoms and liberties have been and continue to be seriously eroded. As I mentioned on another post a long time ago, I believe the police have been hardened and militarized for a reason - they will be on the front lines when the gummint really gets serious about taking over. And the police officers who will refuse the unlawful orders are fewer and fewer each year.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: gunman42782 on November 23, 2007, 07:28:50 PM: I tell you guys, you can think I am full of hot air, I don't really care. I take Patrick Henry's "Give me Liberty of give me Death" speech very seriously. If we can not live as free men then death is preferable to slavery. If someone is trying to take away your guns that you have every legal and moral right to have, then that person is just as much a predator as the mugger in the street, no matter is he is a cop or not. I respect the police, please do not get me wrong, I have even thought about being a cop myself. But, the rights in the Bill of Rights take top priority over any other law.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: drifter44 on November 23, 2007, 09:21:00 PM: I am in total agreement with Pathfinder about the state of most Police Departments. As we all get older the policemen get younger and know less about the Bill of Rights. There is no easy answer to things like what happened in New Orleans. We have no guarantee that the laws enacted to prevent illegal seizures will be followed anyway.
Remember Fear the Government That Fears Your Guns.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: MikeBjerum on November 23, 2007, 10:34:19 PM: I have read these posts over and over and over ..., and I have watched the video a few times trying to think what I would have done differently being any one of the participants. I thought back to my days in school (elementary, jr. high, sr. high and college) and the teachings on or founding Fathers. I have reread some articles on why our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights are written the way they are. I have even read these documents.

Yesterday and today were supposed to be days where I tried to relax a little between visits with in-laws that don't agree with my political views, and then someone needs to post a message that turns my "down time" into an educational experience. DAMN YOU and THANK YOU Gunman!

Is it not situations just like what took place in these videos part of the reason that or Founding Fathers felt the citizens needed to be armed. Is it possible that this type of tyranny and what it can lead to, and this type of corruption that our former leaders wanted us to be able to resist? Is this the type of action they feared could lead to abusive monarchy, or as we know it today - dictatorship?

I'm not suggesting that we all resist on a whim or as a reflex in the face of this type of corruption, but I am saying that this shows the reason we all need to have a plan of how to protect supplies for our essential needs in case of "attacks" of this type. I live by my Boy Scout training "Be Prepared," and wonder where to go with that in the face of this video. As a Christian I remember the letter to the Romans where it is stated that all government is by God, and we are to be subject to it. However, Jesus is also quoted as when to place government behind us because of their abuses and corruption.

I don't have answers at this time, and I generate more questions the more I read, study, reflect, and even type this. This type of open revelation, discussion and debate is what I come here for. Thank you for this thread and for the forum to share opinions.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....OUR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS !
Post by: WILLIAM A FARLEY Jr. on November 24, 2007, 10:27:14 PM: IT IS REALLY BAD OR A SHAME. WHEN LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT HAVE LACK OF GOOD SENSE! IT IS COMING TO THE POINT, IN
THE NEAR...FUTURE. TH IS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: enidpd804 on November 25, 2007, 11:45:17 PM: I won't pretend to know all about NOPD but I do know some of their history and so do most of you. Don't lump all cops in with those guys. Pidgeon-holing should be left to the ignorant.

That aside, I feel generally the same. I don't like being randomly felt up at the airport without cause and I sure as hell didn't like it when it happened to my wife and nearly to my eight year old daughter (until the TSA supervisor intervened).

Governments always overreact and kneejerk during catastrophe. We had an ice storm in my middle sized town which knocked out electricity to the entire city for several days. The mayor declared a state of emergency and a 10 p.m. curfew, which is allowed under OK law. We were empowered to arrest anyone out after that time. Did we? Of course not. Out of dozens of people in violation of the curfew, none were arrested or even cited. Some of you may have knowledge of the police from all over the country. My experience may not be so vast. In my limited experience, officers from my area are not the exception...we are the norm.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: enidpd804 on November 26, 2007, 12:00:19 AM: As to the "hardened and militarized" statement, I'm not sure where to begin. :) I'm guessing the thought is that there is some nation-wide conspiracy among LEO agencies to build up weapons and goose step our way down Main St. USA to collectively trample the rights of the citizens. When I joined the police department, the feds came in and planted a chip in my brain changing everything I believe in. ::) Come on! I didn't even get a ride in the black helicoper. :D

Also, policemen are actually getting "older" and training and education among LEO's is increasing. ;)

Please, don't take my posts as insulting but rather tongue-in-cheek, as that is my intention.

I don't know where you guys are from or what your experiences are, but where I come from, cops are people, too.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: gemurdock on November 26, 2007, 07:48:00 AM: More food for thought: http://www.kidk.com/news/11726496.html
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: jaybet on November 27, 2007, 07:41:39 AM: Quote from: enidpd804 on November 26, 2007, 12:00:19 AM
Also, policemen are actually getting "older" and training and education among LEO's is increasing. ;)

I don't know where you guys are from or what your experiences are, but where I come from, cops are people, too.
Even being a civilian but former firefighter, I have to agree with this. I've known well several generations of LEO in my little part of the world and for the most part they just keep getting better. They're better trained in a much wider range of information, they're better educated and more well-rounded. I think if push came to shove the cops would be lined up shoulder to shoulder with us on the side of the Second Amendment.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: Hazcat on November 27, 2007, 08:33:00 AM: Jaybeth,

The point is the LEOs were not on the side of the people in N.O.! They "followed orders" and stole the guns.

Maybe the locals in smaller towns would stand with us but I am afraid that in the larger departments we would have little if any support.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: jaybet on November 27, 2007, 01:01:33 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on November 27, 2007, 08:33:00 AM
Jaybeth,

The point is the LEOs were not on the side of the people in N.O.! They "followed orders" and stole the guns.

Maybe the locals in smaller towns would stand with us but I am afraid that in the larger departments we would have little if any support.

That's a point that is difficult to ignore and I agree- larger departments might be a problem. However, you have to also consider the N.O.P.D. in general....I've never heard any positive comments made about that department. I know that's a broad brush to be slapping against a group, but I REALLY have never heard any news, read any written commentary, nothing at all that indicates that there's not a whole lot of trouble in that department all the time.
I sortof wonder how many guns got turned in as opposed to some guys collections getting a lot bigger.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: Hazcat on November 27, 2007, 01:42:31 PM: Jaybeth,

If you go here http://guntalk.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=279348 and listen to the download the guest says MANY guns were never turned in by the cops, only the junk ones.

Also NOPD is corrupt but they wre not alone. They had help from other states as well.
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: HAWKFISH on November 27, 2007, 02:52:29 PM: That video is disturbing. I hope everyone learns from Katrina. I hope and wish that everyone will look at world history and facts to better understand what is happening. I know many cops that would never follow through with something like that. But, the sad fact is some would. But, if you follow the law and are armed legally, then why should someone come and take away your gun? Especially, if you are a good guy/gal and only protecting yourself and/or your family. You know, if that lady for example would have just gave up her gun peacefully and been left all alone with no gun, then what? Who would be there to protect her when the group of bad guys come down the street to harm her and to take her food? The police? The government? Where where they or would they be if everyone was unarmed and at the mercy of mere criminals? I mean to me it is just silly. Many places around this country if you call the police to come, there is a good chance you would be dead before they can even get there. Same thing applies to the government. Individual people are their own best protection. And for many of those a gun is their prefered method of defense. And if you are a legal law-abbiding citizen... you know one of the "good guys", then why should anybody ever try to dissarm you? Hitler, Stalin, Hussan and many other of the world's worst leaders in history performed the same tatics and took up/confiscated guns from the good citizens in their beguiling forms of gun control. PLEASE WAKE UP AMERICA! And the rest of the world for that matter. Look at the other countries in last fifteen years or so that did gun confiscations and bans. Then look at how crime skyrocketed. All too many people think that is can't and won't really happen. Unless, the good people stand up for what is truely right, it will happen. This country was founded on FREEDOMS and LIBERTIES. What has happened?
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: pioneer on November 29, 2007, 06:36:26 PM: Quote from: natetinstman on November 23, 2007, 07:05:58 AM
If this were to happen again, what can you do? When you have LE on the doorstep armed and demanding your firearms what do you do?

A friend of mine who has been active in the cause for many years suggests we all have a "throw away" gun, or perhaps in this case a "surrender gun." If you don't already have one, get yourself an old Papa-Oscar-Sierra from a pawn shop, or at the discount table at a gun show. It doesn't even have to work. When Ray Nagan's Storm Troopers show up at your door, surrender your gun. If in the unlikely event they have a stack of 4473 forms, try something like; "Gee officer, I sold those years ago, all except my favorite antique gun here. Do you really have to take it?"

I think I could convince them I am really upset about giving up my only gun, a family heirloom and by-the-way, "I want a receipt."

I have such a gun, a 1908 Iver Johnson, 8 shot .22 revolver. It was a gift about 35 or so years ago, and it still shoots well. If I had to sacrifice one of my guns, this would be the one.

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Pistols/Guns021.jpg)
Title: Re: For your friends that think it can't happen here....
Post by: gunman1911 on November 30, 2007, 05:04:02 PM: As a Ex LEOI know that I've had lot of discussions with military people about their and ours oaths. Defend our country against foreign and DOMESTIC invaded, Our is to defend the constitution,
but it look like thing went really bad in NO when we bean bag people in jail and arrest the elderly for having the means to defend themselves in the worst of times and suspend the rights of others at will. It makes me worry what will happen when times get bad anywhere.Those officers shouls be prosicuted for thier actions. >:(
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: sfmittel on November 30, 2007, 08:40:39 PM: If you really want to get annoyed and entertained at the same time, read Matthew Bracken's books (link below). Granted, they're fiction, and granted, they represent a worst-case scenario of a government run amok, but Mr Bracken has an interesting way of taking things as they ARE and projecting them to show what they COULD BE. I've become a fan, and I anxiously await book # 3 in the trilogy, which is supposed to be out next year. IMO, book # 2 ("Domestic Enemies: The Reconquista") is better written and is more plausible than book # 1 ("Enemies Foreign and Domestic"), but you really should read # 1 first, as it sets up the storyline and some of the characters in book # 2. They paint a frightening possible pathway for the near future, especially in light of this discussion about the travesties of NO.

Then, if you're PO'd enough about a possible bleak future, read "Until Proven Innocent" by Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson. It gives you a blow-by-blow account of the travesty of justice that was the Duke lacrosse rape case. Most importantly for this discussion, it shows how politically motivated prosecutors and their lackey police departments can do pretty much what they want. And this isn't fiction, folks - it really happened.

http://www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/
Title: Re: For your freinds that think it can't happen here....
Post by: someguy on November 30, 2007, 10:17:33 PM: Well, I'll simply add my $.02 here... I live in TN now and have for 15 years, but grew up outside of Mobile, AL, and spent a fair amount of time in NO/LA. Also had a college roommate from there, and heard his stories... But the summary is this:

A close friend who works for a police dept. in a smaller TX town said that right after the levees broke, he and his entire department were asked by the Chief if anyone would be willing to volunteer to house either an officer or the family/families of officers from the NOPD. The answer was unanimous - NO. It wasn't about unwillingness to help - I've seen these guys give until it hurt. It was about the legacy of corruption in the NOPD and NO government that goes back 150 years.