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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on July 16, 2020, 06:23:48 AM

Title: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: billt on July 16, 2020, 06:23:48 AM
Yesterday morning as my wife was bringing in the groceries, she said she felt something wet hitting her. I went outside and I could see a small stream of water spraying straight up from my 1/4" copper supply line to both my evaporator coolers on the roof. I got a ladder and went up to take a look.

There was a pinhole in the 1/4" copper tubing about a 1/4" up from the nut on the valve, where it comes up through the roof. (Lower part of the picture). I had never seen a pinhole leak like that. There was nothing visible from where something could have struck it. It just sort of appeared on it's own. It was no big deal to fix. I simply replaced that 6" section of copper tubing with a new one, along with a couple of new compression rings. While I was up there, I also added another valve on the left side of the tee fitting, so I can shut off the supply to the cooler on the house, while keeping the supply to the garage cooler open. (We only use A/C to cool the house).

But the leak worries me. I read that pinhole leaks in copper pipe and tubing are not that uncommon. I have had copper plumbing on most every house I've ever owned, and never had an issue or a leak that developed on it's own. Have any of you guys? I have soft water, which I'm told really helps. I read if certain iron particles get stuck on the internal surfaces of copper pipe, they can cause a galvanic type of decay of the copper. And over time can cause a pinhole type of leak like I had.

The water supply that feeds evaporator coolers out here, are not plumbed through the softener. But rather bypass it. What say you guys? This was the setup that leaked. The pinhole was like I said. About a 1/4" up from the lower compression nut. It's all been replaced. I just hope it's not a warning of things to come.

(https://i.imgur.com/v52whah.jpg)
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: Solus on July 16, 2020, 06:33:27 AM
Would PVC  or other less corrosive prone plumbing be worth considering?

And if I understand your setup, why not put in a valve on the garage run so that the house supply   for A/C can continue if problems develop on the garage side?
 
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: billt on July 16, 2020, 06:34:31 AM
I should add that when I cut into the existing copper line with my tubing cutter, to install the additional valve, I found nothing out of the ordinary when cutting through the old tubing. It was not brittle, nor did it feel thin. It took as much spinning and tightening of the tubing cutter, as it did to cut the brand new copper tubing for the piece I replaced.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: billt on July 16, 2020, 06:42:48 AM
Would PVC  or other less corrosive prone plumbing be worth considering?

The biggest problem with PVC supply outside, (especially on the roof), is UV deterioration of the plastic itself from Sunlight. You can paint it, but even that cracks, and allows for UV deterioration after just a short time. I've heard PEX has issues with rodents chewing on it. Especially in attics. (It gives off a type of odor they like). And here in Lake Havasu the only PVC they allow under pressure, is for outside irrigation supply. And even that has to be copper where it exits the house.

Out here if you leave a piece of PVC pipe unprotected in the Sun for a year, it turns a deep purple color, and it will shatter like glass if you strike it on a hard surface.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: Rastus on July 16, 2020, 08:49:23 AM
Galvanic corrosion can make a leak like that.  Because it is copper I don't think it could be a bacteria colony but could it be from a lightning strike?  Does your evaporative cooler have a slight short in it which is causing a voltage potential to ground..it doesn't take much over time?  And it may just be a bad piece of copper...if this is an existing home using chicom parts that may well be your problem.  I'd split that copper back at the failure point...I'm assuming it's seamless but maybe not. 

You could install your own "insulator kit".  You need to keep that copper from having any kind of a ground to avoid the galvanic corrosion.  I always install insulator kits on my well flowlines and sometimes zinc sacrificial anodes to avoid galvanic corrosion.  Since you are in the air with it...no need for the anodes...but maybe some zinc anode (like for an outboard) installed on the copper at the foundation.  I'd install a piece of PVC at the beginning and at the end to limit where you can have a problem with galvanic corrosion.  You'll have to slip some insulating materials in where the copper touches anything that will take it to ground....black electrician tape or a plastic/rubber sleeve or insulating material should do it.  Paint the PVC and cover it with insulating material or black electrician tape to keep the sun off for years.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: billt on July 16, 2020, 09:02:36 AM
Thanks Rastus. I also read that vacation homes that sit several months out of the year unoccupied, can be more prone to this type of thing, than houses that are lived in year round. Water moving through the pipes on somewhat of a regular basis lessens the condition for this to develop. That makes some sense because my evaporator coolers are only used from around the end of April, until late October. They sit all Winter.

Maybe I should get in the habit of running them a few minutes every couple of weeks, just to get some water moving through them. It can't hurt.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: alfsauve on July 16, 2020, 09:18:55 AM
I've had a leak where they bent a copper pipe to get it through a hole in a floor joust.  It was tight up against the joist and bent at that point.  After 40years between minute rubbing and chemical buildup at that point finally got a pinhole.

I think touching dissimilar metals and salts are the biggest problem with copper pipes.   
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: Timothy on July 16, 2020, 09:25:01 AM
This issue is common in homes with water heaters.  As they degrade because folks don’t change the anode often enough, metal particles travel thru the system and cause the copper to corrode and leak.

I assume your coolers are not connected to that system so there may be other issues with your a/c systems.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: PegLeg45 on July 16, 2020, 12:29:07 PM
Based from experience in industrial use of copper tubing (well, almost any type tubing made), sometimes it's just a defect in the material that's always been there but took years to show up. In a set-up like yours on a roof with no interference like rubbing against something via vibration then I'd say defect, unless like was mentioned above lightning got it.

On a roof, definitely stay away from PVC. Even painted and covered it'll go when you least expect it. My dad installed PVC irrigation stubs on our pecan trees years ago and even though they are in the shade 2/3 of the year we are constantly replacing parts due to exposure.
PEX is also susceptible to becoming brittle in the sun. Our camper water lines are run in PEX and the two system drain lines exit under the rear corner. About six inches of the lines used to hang down just far enough for partial sun exposure and I guess that was enough to make them brittle. We were camping a few years ago at Amelia Island and came back to the camper from lunch and the neighbor came over and said he's turned off the water supply because one of the lines at the back of the camper was spraying. It had a pinhole leak in the PEX just above the drain fitting. I went to Lowe's and got a Sharkbite valve and installed it and had to trim about four inches of PEX off the end to get rid of the brittle part.

If it were my set-up on the roof, I'd stick with copper or switch to stainless tubing. You could also go with aluminum tubing as well and be safer than PVC or PEX.

My two pennies worth.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: TAB on July 16, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Copper is fine.  Its speced for 40 year life span.  When it goes bad again you wont care.   If there  is no kink or damage to the line. A defect is the moat likely problem.  Remember this stuff is extruded by the mile and sold cheap.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: billt on July 17, 2020, 01:15:48 AM
Another thing I've read, in helping to prevent any type of galvanic action in your plumbing, is to change the Anode in your hot water heater.  But this can sound like a much easier and simpler task than it actually is. I read not to even attempt it without a heavy duty, plug in electric impact gun with a good fitting impact socket. Otherwise if you try it manually, you will just drag the water around with the breaker bar, tweaking, and perhaps even breaking your plumbing connections.

Another issue is clearance, assuming you can get the thing out. I've got a 5' tall water heater with an 8' ceiling. That only leaves 3' of clearance to lift it out. Some guys say you can bend them as you're taking them out. I don't know, I've never changed one out. I know they sell segmented Anodes that have joints every few feet, in order to accommodate this type of issue. Again, I don't know because I've never done it.

Have any of you guys changed one of these out? If so what problems have you run into? My water heater is electric, and was installed in 2014. It looks to be in good shape. But looking at the outside doesn't tell you a damn thing. If it's not too bad of a task, I'd like to change it. It can't hurt. But if it's going to turn into a PITA, I'll just forget about it.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: Jim Kennedy-ar154me on July 17, 2020, 07:15:51 AM
Thanks Rastus. I also read that vacation homes that sit several months out of the year unoccupied, can be more prone to this type of thing, than houses that are lived in year round. Water moving through the pipes on somewhat of a regular basis lessens the condition for this to develop. That makes some sense because my evaporator coolers are only used from around the end of April, until late October. They sit all Winter.

Maybe I should get in the habit of running them a few minutes every couple of weeks, just to get some water moving through them. It can't hurt.

Would some sort of solar powered circulation pumb that ran 24/7 help in any way? Not a heavy flow but just enough ???
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: crusader rabbit on July 17, 2020, 08:18:23 AM
Just a couple of points from my limited experience with extruded copper. 

Alf, I have a couple of rentals and got a report from a tenant that there was water on the kitchen floor.  When I searched it out, I found that a sheet rock screw that had been part of the original install 20 years before had exited the stud by a fraction of an inch--just enough to barely touch a copper tubing take off for the ice-maker.  A combination of vibration and electrolysis managed to make a pinhole in that dang tubing.

And Tab, copper extrusions are intended to be pure copper.  But, I intended to be 6'4" and only made it to 6' so intentions are only hopes and dreams.  Extruded copper doesn't need much of a more noble metal to begin electrolysis resulting in a pinhole leak.  When you have two dissimilar metals or conductors in the presence of an electrolyte you make a battery.  The less noble metal becomes sacrificial finally giving way to becoming a pinhole.  I think the most common factor is a speck of pure carbon getting into the extruded copper.  It becomes something like a common flashlight battery on a micro scale.

I witnessed this once where copper was the more noble metal.  Friend had an aluminum-hulled fishing boat.  At some point, someone had inadvertently dropped a penny into the bilge where it sat in a small amount of seawater for an unknown time period until it made a penny-sized hole in his hull.  He had to haul and repair the hole to the tune of a bucket of money.  After relaunch, every guest had to empty their pockets of change and keys into ziplock bags before boarding so he could avoid another many thousand dollar bill.

And that's why they put sacrificial zincs on boats--for the protection of shafts, props, and through-hulls.  Tougher to do that on houses and evap coolers.

FWIW,

Crusader Rabbit
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: billt on July 17, 2020, 08:19:12 AM
Would some sort of solar powered circulation pumb that ran 24/7 help in any way? Not a heavy flow but just enough ???

I have a hot water recirculation pump on my hot water heater. But I don't use it. It is plumbed into the system because my hot water heater is in the garage. And the master bath shower is clear on the other side of the house. So with it on I get hot water almost instantly. Without it I have to run it on hot for at least a minute or so before it gets hot enough to where you can't stick your hand in it.

It's not a problem out here, especially in the Summer because the water coming into the house is over 90 F on full cold. But it's nice in the colder Winter months. If I had a Winter home that was only used 6 or so months out of the year, I would definitely put some type of small recirculation pump on both the hot and the cold. Just to keep a small volume of water moving through the system.   
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 17, 2020, 06:52:36 PM
In our old house (built in 1989) we had several pin hole leaks in the water lines.  The copper was corroding on the inside.  Everything looked fine from the outside, but when you cut out the bad piece, it looked like the inside had pox.

It was confined to the area from the meter to the softener.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: Jim Kennedy-ar154me on July 21, 2020, 07:36:01 AM

It was confined to the area from the meter to the softener.

I live in an area with VERY HARD water. Our house is new so we are using plastic water pipes but a water softener is a necessity in this area. This is the first time I lived in a house with a softener.
Title: Re: Should I Be Concerned ??
Post by: TAB on July 21, 2020, 10:55:22 AM
Water softener is a oxy moron. You are just changing one form of hardness for another.