The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: bloodfarts on November 18, 2010, 10:54:05 AM
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Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.
They are letting a stop watch force them into making really bad decisions.
I watch the fastest local hotshots sticking their hands through simulated window's to shoot a bad guy.
I watch the hotshots use cover as a rest, not as cover.
Cutting the pie has an entirely different meaning in competition shooting.
The act of unloading your firearm the split second you are done with a gun fight is FREAKING NUTS.
I am still scanning and assessing and the "R.O" thinks I'm lost and I need help...........
As a semi famous ugly guy once said-
"Anytime you go into a situation where you know exactly what is going to happen and you tailor your gear and technique to that situation (plate rack, staged defensive scenario) you set yourself to gaming.
When you are gaming, you are playing by the rules. In a real gun fight, there are no rules.
Training is training and dogshit is dogshit.
I'll take the training. You can have the dogshit.
Have a nice day,
BloodFarts
USMC
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Welcome to the forum Bloodfarts, The thing to keep in mind is that IPSC, USPSA, etc. are not training, and they are not geared toward Military application. They are sports, When was the last time you saw a Calvary troop (horse type ) cutting cross country ? But Steeplechase is still popular among the horse set. Same with throwing Javelins.
The training value of these sports is that you are operating under pressure, true, it is from a clock, not some one trying to kill you but when the buzzer goes you have to act THEN, and you have to put your shots on target THEN.
Other wise I have to agree, for one thing, for a Citizen CCW holder they require you to move in the wrong direction, toward the threat to engage the next set of targets, not away from the threat toward safety.
Would not be much of a sport if you could win by screaming like a girl and running like hell ;D
PS, Thanks for your service and Semper Fi Bro. You , me, and a few others on here should team up, Bloodfarts and the old farts ;D
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Personally I see more dangerous things on the road every day, but the point is taken. Tom, that was very well responded in that those sports are NOT training, just as bull riding is not what cowboys generally do as a job description.
Hopefully Mr. Fart will be contributing to more conversations, and this wasn't just a passing gas cloud. Looking forward to Post #2.
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I've been threatened and/or assaulted with knives, guns, fists, clubs and bad words, but I have never been in as much danger as when using the cross walk while (usually ) women drivers are texting or reading their mail. :(
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Who said Mr. Farts?
( I looked to see if my Dad was in here. hehe)
Points taken guys. Thanks for not attacking me.
Sometimes I want to warn the young cops to never run around a blind corner with your firearm fully extended out, or explaining that scanning and assessing after shooting, not only helps you to identify secondary threat's but it forces you to break the "tunnel vision" that you WILL have. (Watch the first Superman movie. Even Superman gets tunnel vision....you will too.)
But I feel like I come off as the "ex-contractor" know it all guy.
I'd rather be the wierd guy that looks around after he shoots.
Less people trying to borrow/sell you stuff. ( hehe)
Blood farts-
Is it ok to drink in here?
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Is it ok to drink in here?
NO IT IS NOT "OK"!!!
It's a REQUIREMENT!
;D
Haz (who is currently brewing 6 gallons of English Nut Brown Ale)
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Bloodfarts,
I have the same problem shooting IPSC. I just do not want to pick up anymore bad habits than I already have.
When I SO an IDPA stage and I get one of the "shell flickers" I let them know they might as well slow down and let me check clear.
I had an SO ask me why my pistol was so much louder than the others on the stage. I told him I was the only one who did not stick the pistol past cover.
There is no doubt that USPSA shooters are very good gunhandlers and marksmen/women. It's just gaming the game has become more important than the founders had invisioned (Col. Cooper).
I shoot IDPA just to get a chance to shoot, move and engage multiple targets. I don't go to the regional matches because of my limited tolerance of the game. As with any practice I review how I handled the stages and figure out what I need to work harder at.
At the end of the day people getting out shooting for shooting sake is OK for all of us.
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NO IT IS NOT "OK"!!!
It's a REQUIREMENT!
;D
Haz (who is currently brewing 6 gallons of English Nut Brown Ale)
What the hell is with the signature lines ???
Have you been drinking the FQ Kool Aid ???
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NO IT IS NOT "OK"!!!English nuts make good beer? Yer scarin' me!
It's a REQUIREMENT!
;D
Haz (who is currently brewing 6 gallons of English Nut Brown Ale)
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What the hell is with the signature lines ???
Have you been drinking the FQ Kool Aid ???
NAA, just bringing Farts up to speed. (mine are turbo charged! ;) )
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English nuts make good beer? Yer scarin' me!
EEEEWWWWWW!!!!!!
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Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.
As others have said, it's a sport. I have a problem with the High Power matches and their leather shooting jackets, myself. Talk about not relevant to the real world.
Anyway, this past weekend I got to play with a Meggit video training simulator. (Sandy Springs Police department'.) The problem with practically every scenario is it only afforded two options. Stand there and shoot OR stand there and don't shoot. In most of them some form of movement would have been preferable. You got me to thinking that this is dangerous training for our LEOs as it doesn't encourage alternatives which might end with less lethal consequences. The choice isn't always JUST shoot/noshoot, but that's what some of these training scenarios are drilling into the LEOs.
As a homeowner, I don't have to aggressively attack the situation. I can retreat and defend. And you're right, in most cases I might encounter, time is my friend not my task master.
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A thing to remember Alf is that it is a "Shooting simulator" again, the focus is on shoot or no shoot judgement which requires the assumption that things like verbal deescalation have failed. Also, space limitations mean that movement options are going to be limited even if they are offered.
Even Force on force training with simunitions will have certain weaknesses in things like recoil management, and the fact that no matter how realistic the training may be there is no way to simulate the knowledge that the other guy is using live ammo and trying to kill YOU.
It boils down to the fact that you can not remove the line that exists between "trained" and "experienced".
One is what you SHOULD do, and what you WANT to happen, and what you actually did and what really happened. Even the best trained Super Ninja will get kicked in the nuts by Murphy ;D
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Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.
They are letting a stop watch force them into making really bad decisions.
I watch the fastest local hotshots sticking their hands through simulated window's to shoot a bad guy.
I watch the hotshots use cover as a rest, not as cover.
Cutting the pie has an entirely different meaning in competition shooting.
The act of unloading your firearm the split second you are done with a gun fight is FREAKING NUTS.
I am still scanning and assessing and the "R.O" thinks I'm lost and I need help...........
As a semi famous ugly guy once said-
"Anytime you go into a situation where you know exactly what is going to happen and you tailor your gear and technique to that situation (plate rack, staged defensive scenario) you set yourself to gaming.
When you are gaming, you are playing by the rules. In a real gun fight, there are no rules.
Training is training and dogshit is dogshit.
I'll take the training. You can have the dogshit.
Have a nice day,
BloodFarts
USMC
Got DQ'd at a match recently for unsafe gun handling, huh? ;D I think the folks at BrianEnos.com might really find your comments enlightening. Go over there and post this and come back tell us how you were received..... ;D
I happen to know a few former door kickers (Dave Harrington comes immediately to mind) who do think shooting competitions is beneficial to their overall skill set. USPSA focuses on practical shooting, not tactical stuff. IDPA attempts to be more of a self defense type shooting game, but it too is a game. I think both types can help but I tend to favor USPSA because I get to shoot more and it's a faster game. If I want to practice for "tactical stuff" I'll modify some of my drills at home to suit.
The one thing I have noticed about LEO/Military who do not do well at these matches is a lack of practice and/or think they have some sort superiority over the others because of their uniform (fortunately this set is very rare).
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Any time spent practicing sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control is not wasted, even dry fire drills.
I do high volume long run production machining and one thing I have learned is that your hands are faster than your brain.
The less you have to think through your actions, the more automatic they become, the faster you will perform.
Some people refer to this as muscle memory, I prefer to put it into manufacturing terms and think of it as a "canned cycle" in your brain.
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I shot IPSC for a long time, in the beginning it was in it's infancy, and we played hard core practical games, since it evolved, it became so much less than practical,, than a fast and difficult game. I totally agree, that modern stages allow shooting from unprotected positions, 20 targets at a time, and no deductions for not using cover, or your head for that matter, it did not start out that way, but now is the letter of the law ( so to speak ), sad, I have said before, just call the sport ( Gun Racing ) and we would all be cool, don;t call it practical shooting, but they USPSA Usurped it, and it is what it is, the competitors want it and they got it, just a name. IDPA is better, but not great, I have not shot that match yet. I do keep an eye on modern competitions, and most shooters, don't want, slow deliberate, situations, with thought, taking a part, and well, our local club does do these type of matches, popular with 20 -30 peeps, and that is good. No Gaming, just understanding the stage, and understanding the SITREP, and applying your skill, plus what We call the ( do right rules ) means the RO can call you down for gaming, and there is no real Rule book, RO decides, if your trying to game or be tactical, Practical, you can be called down for it, and lose points. A Practical or tactical approach will always get you further, rather than a straight up approach at the targets, with no cover.zz
Training is more deliberate, practice is what comes after, and competition is another, bad comp is contradictory to good training, or good practice, if you have the right attitude, you can compete within your local matches, and just use your training, and expect to lose, but gain skill, if you apply what you have learned, and not give in to winning. Just get good trigger time and back out.
Welcome newbee, post again.
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Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.
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Training is training and dogshit is dogshit.
I'll take the training. You can have the dogshit.
Interesting. I've never been around safer gun handlers than USPSA. They sure are a lot safer than the average plinker or hunter I see!
Oh. That's not what you mean?
It is interesting to note that the majority of the top USPSA shooters work as trainers for military, law enforcement, and private security firms, and a substantial number of them are active duty military or law enforcement. Apparently they find something of value in teh experience.
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Reading what M 25 and BBBean posted, I think we can come up with a good rule of thumb, Good training makes for crappy sport,while an entertaining sport makes for crappy training ;D
I will point out that some of the Clanton gang may have been real safe gun handlers, but they still got their azzes shot off by the Earps. ::)
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Good input guys.
I will give credit where credit is due.
I have seen very safe gun handling skills at the ipsc/uspsa events.
That is the only reason I haven’t gone nuts yet.
What I am saying is the act of unloading your firearm the second you are done shooting is insane. (Really insane.)
What do you think is going to happen if these guys get into a real unrehearsed shooting scenario? Yep, they'll shoot twice and just freeze.
Double tap? This is not 1986.
In Federal court, a double tap could insinuate the second shot was not a well aimed shot. (Think about that for a second. Scary, hua?) How can you go into an active shooter situation thinking in advance " I have to shoot everything two times."
Competition shooting is a game. Don’t get mad at me. It's still way cooler than Bowling.
I don’t hate anyone. All gun owners that practice are my friends.
(Group hug)
You never stick your firearm through a window.
You never stand still during or after you finish shooting.
You never shoot unless you have covered (almost never)
And don’t kiss your friends Mom.
Peace and Love-
Farts
(Full auto- No, I wasn’t DQ’ed, Mr. negative. When did your wife leave?)
bbbean- If you can just tell me where you got your statistic for your below comment? "The majority of the top USPSA shooters work as trainers for military, law enforcement, and private security firms. I am in the industry you talk about; we talk about the dangers of fun training all the time." Again USPSA is a sport. That is all I am saying.........
I love you all.
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Double tap? <snip> How can you go into an active shooter situation thinking in advance " I have to shoot everything two times."
One thing at our league we sometimes do various round counts. We've done 10+ targets with 1 round each - reload 1 round each. Also 1 round every other target, reload, 1 round each remaining target.....that type of thing. Makes you think. When we have time for a 4th stage it's almost always a Bill Drill. Sometimes with one target, sometimes 3. Basically it's "empty your gun - reload - empty your gun" Granted they are all predetermined, but the idea is to get away from 2+2+2+2........
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Quote from: bloodfarts on Today at 03:50:07 pm
Double tap? <snip> How can you go into an active shooter situation thinking in advance " I have to shoot everything two times."
We don't teach "double tap." We teach shoot till they drop! May be two, three, four, ... We also don't teach counting shots. I have been trying to find the research papers, but I think I have lost them. The papers dealt with the idea of only so many shots on the bad guy. Some instructors teach two to the chest and one to the head, some teach "zip 'em up." The research gave stats from post shooting interviews, and it was found that officers did not have accurate counts of rounds they had fired. Most underestimated. Some so bad they said one or two shots while standing with an empty firearm! If I find it I will post it
The value I see in "competition" is practice. It is more than trigger time. It is about the reaction to a sound, draw, target recognition, target picture, sight alignment, trigger control and safety. I don't value "gaming" in the self defense arena, but the concepts Jeff Cooper was attempting when he developed El Presidente are still valid in my mind.
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This is something Rob goes into in some of his training video's that I have seen.
I wont try to repeat what I remember because he will do it better first hand when he weighs in.
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I have never had the time or money to shoot as much as I would like to be able to comment on the effectiveness of different sports on your gun handling skills. I DO, however, agree with Tom 100% that the hands are quicker than the mind.
From playing guitar I know that for most people they can't possibly play enough to develop good muscle memory. There are always exceptions, but the only reason I have developed the ability to play at a modestly high level is because I play SO MUCH. Practicing an hour a day is ok, but playing for keeps for three or four hours or for three hour long sets two or three nights in a row, week after week after week...that's when you start doing things without thinking about them, and it's when it starts flowing from somewhere other than your concious thought. I also know that when I lay off for awhile, like now, that muscle memory fades quickly. It comes back quicker, but it fades fast.
Time spent practicing and competing in gun sports is the same thing...it will give you some muscle memory skills in the mechanics that could save your life. even if the activity itself is not true to life. That's why I also agree with bloodfarts that unloading right after the last shot is a bad habit to get into. That could LOSE your life for you some day.
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We don't teach "double tap." We teach shoot till they drop! May be two, three, four, ... We also don't teach counting shots. ...........
For me, so long as there is a threat there is no reason to not continue to fire.
Secondly, my rant, I have to live to get to the interrogation of the courts...stopping short may exclude me from the judicial playground. I say that not because of anything from BF, but because so many people are afraid to "break the law" they'll let themselves be ground up and killed.
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bbbean- If you can just tell me where you got your statistic for your below comment? "The majority of the top USPSA shooters work as trainers for military, law enforcement, and private security firms."
That's an observation, not a statistic. I took it from noting that Rob Leatham, Bob Vogel, Todd Jarret, Manny Bragg, Max Michel, Thomas Tomasie, Jerry Miculek, KC Eusebio, JJ Recaza, Rodney May, Phil Strader, et al (just to pull a few names off the top of my head) are training military/LEO/security personnel, are military/LEO/security personnel, and/or are former military/LEO/security personnel. I also note that USAMU personnel spend a substantial portion of their year in competition and that there are a number of LEAs with teams and sponsored shooters active at the national level in USPSA.
If you're really interested in this issue, you might spend some time at brianenos.com - the primary forum for competitive shooters that is also well populated with military/LEO/security personnel who are active competitors and/or trainers.
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What you say is only valid if you consider WHAT they are training/practicing, is it Movement etc, or just putting rounds on target.
It gets back to what some one else posted, Cowboys invented rodeo as a sport, but it sure as heck wasn't what they did in their day jobs.
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That rodeo comparison is pretty cool... never heard it before and it is pretty spot on. Why the hell would you jump on a crazy distracted pissed off bull and try to ride it for 8 seconds.. THAT NEVER HAPPENS in the real world.
The problem is, no one goes and does that and THEN goes home to their house and thinks that in a moment of needing to protect their families from a pissed off bull that they will jump on its back and hold on the 8 seconds and the whole world will be fine again. THAT is EXACTLY what some people think they are getting out of gun games: Preparation for defensive use of a firearm. I disagree. Strongly.
Some points:
- anyone who thinks that competition is "on demand" in the sense of counter ambush response and TRULY needing to respond on demand when you aren't expecting it needs to study the brain a little more. See my quote in BF's first post.. if you know what you are going to do when the buzzer goes off (and you know that the buzzer is about to go off!) you are not really being tested at anywhere near a one to one level with your ability when you are caught off guard. That can create false confidence.
-habits formed during competition that is invalid in defense shooting (such as the IDPA two shot per target stuff or the Steel challenge one shot & swing stuff) makes you LESS capable of appropriate efficient defense because it conditions you to do something that isn't optimum. You are better off not training any habit in regard to the number of shots you are going to take.
-What people on a competition forum say about defensive shooting might not be as valuable as what people on a defensive training forum say about defensive shooting. I'm not going to go check in at www.frenchchef.com's forum and ask them about what inside the waistband holster they recommend.
-Welcome to the forum BF... please reconsider your codename and the way it reflects on the value of your opinions to the rest of the world.
-RJP
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-What people on a competition forum say about defensive shooting might not be as valuable as what people on a defensive training forum say about defensive shooting. I'm not going to go check in at www.frenchchef.com's forum and ask them about what inside the waistband holster they recommend.
Of course, if the conversation was specifically about French chefs who have had real world experience with IWB holters, it might be worth your while to check out www.frenchchef.com. This might be especially true of someone seemed unaware that there was a heavy overlap between French chefs and IWB holster users.
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No, BBbean, you'r missing the point... granted, I left the door wide open.
I'll use more specific examples.
--If you wanted to know how to Bake the best bread in the world and you went to a site that focused on Roasts just because they both use Ovens, you'd be wrong.
--If you went to a site about driving race cars and asked them about parallel parking, you'd be wrong. Again, just because they use the same tool doesn't mean that there is a lot of overlapping knowledge.
Now I close the next loophole before someone jumps through it:
--If you go to someone who EATS bread really well to find out how to make break, again, you'd be wrong.
--If you go to a guy who builds cars really well to find out how to parallel park, yet again, you'd be wrong.
******
People become experts and specialists in certain areas for a reason. The world needs people who build cars, people who make ovens, people who eat bread, people who bake bread and people who make great roasts..... but they may not all be the same person.
-RJP
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Look, let me try to help Rob AND bloodfart out here. Think of it like hunting and skeet or trap or sporting clays. None of these three games will ever approximate hunting. BUT.....what better practice are you going to get in the off season? If you view them as games and use a $2000 30" single shot for trap or change choke tubes like an Indy pit crew on speed at Clays or wait till your gun is mounted on your shoulder to call "Pull!" at skeet you'll score well. If, on the other hand, you shoot with your regular gun and hold it at the hip and have the guy pull the targets when he's ready, not you, you get valuable practice. You won't score as well though. Not the same as the real deal, but what is? Just saying that people play gun games for different reasons. Some to practice, some to have a good time playing a game. As long as ity makes you happy and you play safe? I say good for you. There is no "right" answer here. Its whatever floats your boat. Just my .02.
FQ13
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I'm going to agree with FQ. The novice shooter that goes to the range two/three times a year, shoots his groups and is not interested in pursuing anything more, is leaving his proficiency in his hands. Especially, in a SD situation.
A frequent range shooter, practices dry fire drills, and holstering, and drawing, studies, reads, pays to get additional training, has a greater mental, and physical advantage. In some respects, competitive shooting, if nothing else creates a better proficiency.
Muscle memory, movement, tactics and technique, situational awareness, etc,... all count for something other than the previous example.
We have posted and discussed "range horrors", here at DRTV, and I'm certain there are competitive folks that create "horrors" as well.
I also know they are the exception, and usually these horrors are corrected...... I also admire Col. Jeff Cooper.
"I would add another reason - practice. Anyone who has ever been deeply involved in warfare knows that the only way to learn to fight is to fight. This may not be a popular view with the grass eaters, but I defy them to disprove it."
Jeff Cooper
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I shoot IDPA for pratice to learn how to draw, cover and other things that you might need if you have to use your weapon. How many people get a ccw and think that will make them bad. Take it for what it is a tool that should help you and it's better than just punching paper. Nothing is perfect and I'm not a member but go when I can to learn and I'm far from fast and enjoy shooting. To each his own
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Far as I can tell there is only one thing wrong with any of these "run and gun" games.
The gunning part is fine but f*$k running ;D
Sign me up for "Service rifle" or bullseye events ;D
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That's an observation, not a statistic. I took it from noting that Rob Leatham, Bob Vogel, Todd Jarret, Manny Bragg, Max Michel, Thomas Tomasie, Jerry Miculek, KC Eusebio, JJ Recaza, Rodney May, Phil Strader, et al (just to pull a few names off the top of my head) are training military/LEO/security personnel, are military/LEO/security personnel, and/or are former military/LEO/security personnel. I also note that USAMU personnel spend a substantial portion of their year in competition and that there are a number of LEAs with teams and sponsored shooters active at the national level in USPSA.
If you're really interested in this issue, you might spend some time at brianenos.com - the primary forum for competitive shooters that is also well populated with military/LEO/security personnel who are active competitors and/or trainers.
I think you will find these folks teach gunhandling and markmenship, not tactics or gunfighting.
I would like to take a Todd Green course to be mor efficent and faster: not for gaming but for surviving.
Folks like Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, John Farnam, Paul Howe, Jeff Gonzales and others teach gunfighting and tactic. Ken is the only one I know of the bunch that shoots games.
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What is a tactic?
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What is a tactic?
Dyslexic breath mint?
I apologize........and be with the starving pygmies in New Guinea...........
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What is a tactic?
Tyler,
Itr should be TACTICS but I only had one S left and wanted to save it for Merry Christmas. ;D
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rc, that's two sssssses
FWIW
Richard
PS: Actually, sounds like a screwed up clock!
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Hey I'm on a budget here!
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Hey I'm on a budget here!
Shortage of S's around here.................except for smart-S's......... ;D
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It's Tyler's Fault !!! -------->
;D
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No, seriously, I was asking a legitimate question.
What is a tactic?
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Tactic
noun
1.
tactics ( def. 1 ) .
2.
a system or a detail of tactics.
3.
a plan, procedure, or expedient for promoting a desired end or result.
–adjective
4.
of or pertaining to arrangement or order; tactical.
Use Tactic in a Sentence
See images of Tactic
Search Tactic on the Web
Origin:
1560–70; NL tacticus < Gk taktikós fit for arranging or ordering, equiv. to tak- (base of tássein (Attic táttein ) to arrange, put in order) + -tikos -tic
—Related forms
non·tac·tic, noun, adjective
—Can be confused: stratagem, strategy, tactic (see synonym note at strategy).
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.
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but seriously Tom,
can somebody here tell me just one tactic to employ in a gunfight?
has anybody here been to one of these high zoot training schools like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch where they at least teach people how to shoot, and I guess some super secret squirrel tactic or tactics?
???
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The only tactic that counts is the "don't get dead" kind!
However that particular one is achieved is fine by this old fart.....
"a plan, procedure, or expedient for promoting a desired end or result."
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well....give me a "for example" then....or a hypothetical....
wasn't anybody taught anything at one of these schools?
???
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My daddy and Uncle Sam taught me.....
when someone points a gun in your direction, shoot 'em or run like hell!
'nuf said...
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Hmmn...okay....you can see where I am going with this, right?
If all the High Speed Low Drag and Cop types are saying "IDPA/USPSA will get you killed!" (OH! NOESSS!!! :o )
Then I would like for at least one of them to tell me one tactic that they use that theoretically saves their life or the lives of others.
As was mentioned earlier about the whole sticking a gun through a "window" thing.... That's not a window, it's called a "port". And one of the reasons that you DO stick the gun all the way through the port is so the slide or the gun doesn't get caught on the frame and cause a malfunction.
If you only committ halfway, that slide cycling back and forth getting hung up on the frame can knock at least the front sight off.
And a jam too. :(
So for the experienced USPSA'ers and IDPA'ers, they know to keep their muzzles to the inside the house part of the port.
Unless the course of fire or stage is set up where the targets are at your feet, basically, like this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4724886211339722596#
From a legal Monday morning quarterback situation, in my opinion, it would look really, really bad to be inside a house and shoot somebody through a window who was out in the yard.
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I may not fully understand where you are going with this, but I'll try for a serious answer.
All situations differ therefore require different tactics, but for one all purpose tactic, WIN.
An all purpose strategy involving 3 separate tactics would be to , Be firstest, be fastest, be foulest.
Recognize the approaching threat,
React to the threat faster than it can act,
respond with overwhelming force.
Hope that goes toward answering your question.
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I may not fully understand where you are going with this, but I'll try for a serious answer.
All situations differ therefore require different tactics, but for one all purpose tactic, WIN.
An all purpose strategy involving 3 separate tactics would be to , Be firstest, be fastest, be foulest.
Recognize the approaching threat,
React to the threat faster than it can act,
respond with overwhelming force.
Hope that goes toward answering your question.
Isn't that what I said?
;D ;D
From a legal Monday morning quarterback situation, in my opinion, it would look really, really bad to be inside a house and shoot somebody through a window who was out in the yard.
Where I live, shooting someone in your front yard, regardless of the circumstances is MURDER so good point Tyler!
Forgive me but I don't buy into a lot of the "training" that's peddled in the firearms industry. I shoot, I train, I don't plan on dieing anytime soon. Situations change in the blink of an eye and we need to adapt accordingly.
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From a legal Monday morning quarterback situation, in my opinion, it would look really, really bad to be inside a house and shoot somebody through a window who was out in the yard.
In our little white corner of the world the Castle Doctrine would come into play. Key items of defense would be "The Reasonable Man" and "Fear For Life." It would also be a good time to not get flagged for an illegal block in the back - and NFL comparison for making sure that he is attacking you and not running away.
Lots of illustrations to give, but I don't want anything I post here to come back as evidence if I every need to protect my life.
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Yes Tyler, NOW I see the point you are going for.
, I've never shot IDPA etc so I don't know the rules, my training was also military and focused on the Rifle, but we were instructed to keep the entire weapon inside the building as an aid to concealment, a barrel sticking out the window is sort of like a big neon sign saying "Shoot here", we were also taught to bust a hole through the wall and shoot through that since windows and door are the first places an opponent will look when he starts taking fire.
Probably not really acceptable for civilian applications though. ;D
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I agree with you that the situation can change in a blink of an eye.
so, yeah, there is no one guaranteed way to get inside a bad guy's OODA loop.
by the way, do any of these shooting schools teach anything about the OODA loop?
anywhoooo....still interested in hearing about GOOD tactics???
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I can see where the originator of this thread may have a valid point...Back in the late 80's a friend of mine who was a reserve county deputy as well as a CCW permit holder use to compete heavily in local IPSC matches here in my area.
This is a story as relayed to me by my friend of an event which happened to him.
While on a visit to the Kansas City area he found himself in a very compromised scenario at a local conveinence store.
He went into the store to pick up soda's and snacks and while at one of the refrigerated cases he heard a commotion in the front...he walked towards the register and observed two young guys who were threatening the clerk.
One of the men turned and faced him and told him he needed to mind his own buisness and walked closer to him and reached out to grab him.
He said that the guy stopped short of grabbing him and instead just stood there looking at him with a strange look on his face.
My buddy said that he didn't remember doing so, but he had laid down the item he had picked up and had squared off with the would be robbers and assumed an IPSC ready stance...Both the individuals backed up and exited the store without taking anything.
He never spoke to these guys and actually never uncovered or drew his handgun but believes that his strange actions are what scared these guys off.
Repitition and practice create muscle memory, and under stress the body tends to react in the manner in which we have trained the most for...thats why I believe that reacting to a timers beep such as in IPSC is inherently a bad idea for anyone considering self defense training. I have often wondered since....If a sound or noise similiar to a PACT timers buzzer had went off I wonder if my buddy would have went into his draw?
IPSC, IDPA etc are great sports but other than teaching marksmanship and movement have litle other value in self defense training.
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I have often wondered since....If a sound or noise similiar to a PACT timers buzzer had went off I wonder if my buddy would have went into his draw?
Did he find himself drawing when other competitors were on the line? Did he find himself drawing at basketball games or in traffic jams? Can he watch Youtube videos or Shooting Gallery without drawing at the screen? If not, is it conceivable that he learned a context-sensitive skill?
IPSC, IDPA etc are great sports but other than teaching marksmanship and movement have litle other value in self defense training.
That's a bit like saying running and weightlifting do a lot to improve your speed, strength, and endurance, but they have little other value in athletic training.
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Did he find himself drawing when other competitors were on the line? Did he find himself drawing at basketball games or in traffic jams? Can he watch Youtube videos or Shooting Gallery without drawing at the screen? If not, is it conceivable that he learned a context-sensitive skill?
No, but my point is that my friend who had Law Enforcement Training when placed in a actual stressful life or death scenario... reverted to an IPSC ready position instead of his Law Enforcement training...that is a training problem.
That's a bit like saying running and weightlifting do a lot to improve your speed, strength, and endurance, but they have little other value in athletic training. Competitive Shooting skills are exactly that...Sports Shooting Skills where no one is shooting back placing life and limb in danger. Other than providing trigger time there is little usefullnes for it and is not an acceptable substitute to Professional Self Defense Training.
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I agree with you that the situation can change in a blink of an eye.
so, yeah, there is no one guaranteed way to get inside a bad guy's OODA loop.
by the way, do any of these shooting schools teach anything about the OODA loop?
anywhoooo....still interested in hearing about GOOD tactics???
Sorry this a bit late.
Yes all good shooting instructors teach some tactics.
#1 Move off the X. Don't stand there, move to cover as you are drawing your weapon.
I would say sticking a firearm past cover is a bad tactic. In force on force training my hands got shot almost every time.
I can clear a malfunction, my shot hand is going to be more of a problem.
John Farnam was the first instructor I heard talk about OODA in 1998. Many others do now and I can't say John was the first to teach it. John is who I compare every instructor to.
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I have also heard "OODA Loop" discussed by Richard Marcinko (Red Cell etc. ) Most of his books are shoot'em up action novels, with lots of "Hard azz BS" but his actual consulting business, ( and the book "The Real Team") is focused on management training and Leadership development.
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OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting.
Oddly enough, I've taken two self defense/tactical pistol classes, and you know what skills they taught? The same skills I put to use in every match I shoot (see the list above for a sample). At the Chapman School, we did spend 10-15% of our time shooting from behind barricades, but then we shoot around barricades in competition, too.
FWIW, I've never seen anyone argue that USPSA/IPSC/IDPA/Steel Challenge/NRA Action Pistol/Bullseye/whatever discipline you prefer is a total and complete SD training solution. By the same token, the SD/Tactical instructors I've worked with made it clear that they didn't consider their training to be a 100% training solution. They seemed to think that regular practice and even <gasp> competitive shooting would be useful ways to maintain and improve our skills.
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bbbean,
Sorry buddy, I didn't mean to piss on your parade. I use to shoot IPSC and some PPC matches myself and it wasn't my intention to knock down the sport or any of it's shooters.
Keep this in mind too....back in the time, the late 1980's, when this incident happened to my buddy... IPSC courses of fire didn't involve much in the way of shooting on the move, or even shooting from cover...and when I was shooting matches here locally...was actually discouraged. This has since been identified by many high level competitive shooters as a need and implemented later on in matches.
I simply identified a very bad habit that my Buddy had fallen in to and when the real SHTF for him....he reverted back to the training he knew best. In this case instead of reacting and moving to cover while drawing his CCW... he squared off with a Bad Guy in a very real Life and Death scenario like he was the Sheriff of Dodge City going up against some bad old Cowboy in a Movie Western.
Bad Tactics, Bad Judgement and by his own admission....all due to a failure in his LEO training and time spent on the IPSC range.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=15025.0;topicseen
If these guys had been armed chances are they would have already had their firearms in hand and at the ready. I don't care how fast you are, even if you are Bob Munden fast...you can't outdraw someone who already has a gun in their hand especially since his pistol was in a CCW holster under clothing and inside deep cover.
I'm not arguing that Competitive shooting doesn't help hone shooting skills and keep one sharp....I am saying that the repetition of competitive shooting builds unsafe Muscle Memory and that as in the case of my buddy...if you find yourself under a similiar situation of life and death. You don't want to depend on a skill set that you learned strictly on a competitive shooting course to get you home alive.
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OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting.
Oddly enough, I've taken two self defense/tactical pistol classes, and you know what skills they taught? The same skills I put to use in every match I shoot (see the list above for a sample). At the Chapman School, we did spend 10-15% of our time shooting from behind barricades, but then we shoot around barricades in competition, too.
FWIW, I've never seen anyone argue that USPSA/IPSC/IDPA/Steel Challenge/NRA Action Pistol/Bullseye/whatever discipline you prefer is a total and complete SD training solution. By the same token, the SD/Tactical instructors I've worked with made it clear that they didn't consider their training to be a 100% training solution. They seemed to think that regular practice and even <gasp> competitive shooting would be useful ways to maintain and improve our skills.
Right, other than that it's useless ;D
Seriously, I understand what Rat is getting at. We had a saying in the military, "You fight like you train". So the benefits of of the sports are lost if they are not coupled with an SD focused training regimen that puts it all into context.
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Let me try to summerize, games are good for some training, but you need to also get self defense training and practice that to keep your mindset while in a SD encounter.
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cookie wrote:
Let me try to summerize, games are good for some training, but you need to also get self defense training and practice that to keep your mindset while in a SD encounter.
pardon my slight thread drift here...way back when, as a kid I read Elenoar (sp?) Roosevelt's biography. At some point in the book, the author tried to distinguish between the snootey stuck up "Rue-sa-velts" and the more down to earth common man "Rosa-velts".
It's like splitting hairs...there is TRAINING which IMO implies paying an instructor and being coached on certain things in order to improve.
And to me, there is practice. Shooting matches and/or practicing at the range is NOT training. Would all those things listed in red in Mr. Bean's post help in a gunfight?
Yeah, I am thinking so, but I might be so bold to speak for Mr. Bean and myself, we don't necessarily think of it as Training (with a capital T).
And I will go so far as to say that us two are definitely not saying that IDPA and/or USPSA are substitutes for self-defense shooting training. We aren't recommending that at all.
Are we saying it is good practice? HELL YEAH!
I think there is a communication "disconnect" between you guys....you "tactibilly's" and us "gamers".
We are transmitting that IDPA and USPSA will make you both fast and accurate and safer ...in short, proficient. But you guys receive that signal and through whatever filters you all have in place interpret it as, "Those guys think that IDPA annd USPSA are good Training" (again with the capital T).
as far as the other thread goes, sorry for the cross-posting, but that hunter-shooter guy with just 2 posts total to his credit summed it up nicely. go back and click on ratcatcher's link to that other thread..
as far as Marshall's post goes, about the draw stroke, there is nothing in either the USPSA or IDPA rulebook that keeps a competitor from drawing in a nonstandard way....from retention keeping your elbow pinned to your side. As long as you're safe and don't breadk the 180 degree rule, you'll be good. There is nothing either that says you must shoot steel challenge type stages with a $3000 open, red dot sighted racegun. There is a guy who shoots with us from time to time and uses a $400 Glcok from inside the waist band tucked under a Hawaiian print shirt, and he is rather good at it too.
If you want to use IDPA/USPSA/steel as Training, be my guest. I ain't gonna stop ya.
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let me just speculate here...and kinda put on my tinfoil hat....
Could it be that the guys who say "IDPA isn't training" or "that USPSA stuff will get you killed" are the same people who are out to make money by teaching you Training classes?
They don't want you to get better via IDPA and USPSA because then you won't have a "need" for their classes.
They won't be able to make money off of you, basically.
Hmmn....just sayin'
as far as Marshall's post about the draw...well...I do need to actually watch the video, but my first gut instinct reaction was whatever happened to the Tueller drill/21 feet rule?
I'm sure somebody more eloquently than I put it down into words in some self-defense book that ya gotta have some sorta rings or zones from you, that based upon a person's distance to you and their mannerisms/body language that it trips your "identification friend or foe" mechanism into full on "FOE!" mode.
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At the USPSA match yesterday (2/5/2011) we had two high-speed/low-drag types there. They were equipped with their thigh rigs and the whole bit. They asked me about a stage and told me they were new. I attempted to explain some of the basic stuff that'll get one DQ'd in a USPSA match and they informed me they were very experienced with guns, as they were military/LEO. I stopped and let them go on.
I thought maybe these guys are really good, but somehow I didn't think that was going to be the case. In short they could not reliably hit full size metric USPSA targets at less than 10-15 yards! :o They were shooting Beretta 92s so it wasn't the gun they were using.....So all of these LEO/gun store commandos that post here to run down competition shooting can just STFU now.....
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At the USPSA match yesterday (2/5/2011) we had two high-speed/low-drag types there. They were equipped with their thigh rigs and the whole bit. They asked me about a stage and told me they were new. I attempted to explain some of the basic stuff that'll get one DQ'd in a USPSA match and they informed me they were very experienced with guns, as they were military/LEO. I stopped and let them go on.
I thought maybe these guys are really good, but somehow I didn't think that was going to be the case. In short they could not reliably hit full size metric USPSA targets at less than 10-15 yards! :o They were shooting Beretta 92s so it wasn't the gun they were using.....So all of these LEO/gun store commandos that post here to run down competition shooting can just STFU now.....
Oh yes oh great all knowing one.
Of course there is no possible way they were just piss poor shots.
Your blow hard attitude prevents you from comprehending that if it was "cut and dried" it would not be a debate.
Dumbass
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Oh yes oh great all knowing one.
Of course there is no possible way they were just piss poor shots.
Your blow hard attitude prevents you from comprehending that if it was "cut and dried" it would not be a debate.
Dumbass
You would be the one to call me out for being a know-it-all, Tom. That in itself is funny. ::)
About your quote above, I have not personally attacked you, Tom. I changed what I wrote here earlier because I just didn't like what I wrote :-[; I know I can do better than that.
So that comment above must be your new signature you use to sign all of your posts- nice! :P
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My $0.02
IDPA can be some form of practice.
It is not and never will be training.
Full Auto, badges , uniforms and gear do not make decent shots. Most folks who are serious competition shooters will out shoot 90% of LEO and the military. That does not mean they would last very long in a gun fight.
I out shoot a couple of guys from 5th SF and the 101st every month but they would kill me very dead in a real life gun battle.
They too complain about how few shooters there are in their units and how little firearms practice they get alotted in a year.
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Having had much experience with law enforcement at several levels of education and competition I will say there is more than one type out there, but one side ruins it for all!
I now :-X
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Having had much experience with law enforcement at several levels of education and competition I will say there is more than one type out there, but one side ruins it for all!
I now :-X
M58,
I know you said you didn't want to comment further so I'll just post here to say I have seen some LEO come out who were very, very good and did NOT have the attitude these had.
I remember I was at Rogers shooting school and was talking to "Super" Dave Harrington (former Delta Op.) and asked him about all of this and his answer was that it was all good (he shoots IDPA/USPSA) and we just needed to be able to practice in both contexts; made sense to me.
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I said my peace here but will add this. I'm ex-Navy, most of our training was based on "How NOT to sink the boat and how to NOT drown if you did!". Clearly, I've no PD training and my "self defense" training is limited. I, like others here have had people try and stab me, club me or otherwise try to do me harm physically. I've managed to come out on top, every time without any "specialized" training but by instinct, avoidance and intuition.
My "don't f..k with me" range has increased as I got older and slower but my instincts and intuition haven't changed. I haven't been able to have a sidearm for nearly six months. Do I feel more vulnerable? Surely! But, I've increased my range even further and practiced more with a blade than I ever have.
Keeping all things in perspective, shooting improves skills, drawing a weapon (insert type here), improves skills, staying alert and intuitive are ingrained in our survival instincts. Remember, any amount of shooting, training and improvement in our regimen is, more than likely, far greater than the gangbanger, dirtbag perpetrator that we may be dealing with. His, or her advantage is they know WHEN they're gonna attack, we must be prepared regardless.
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can somebody here tell me just one tactic to employ in a gunfight?
Uh, I try to give more than one. I only a little time in the Army, just a little time in LE, only a little. I'm not a hardcore life taker and heart-breaker.
So here goes...
Shoot faster and more accurately than the guy shooting at you (wanting/threatening to shoot at you)?
Draw faster?
If you shoot empty, reload faster?
While moving?
When he might be moving?
Or popping out from behind a wall or something (like swingers do or may be a drop turner)?
Before he grabs a hostage (like a clam-shell target) or at that time when the hostage ducks for a moment giving you a clear(er) shot (like a Maxx-Trap)?
Maybe those things the USPSA guys do at most every match...
I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce. Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time.
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I forgot to observe how real USPSA shooters aren't simply firing two shots- their firing two shots for that A zone and being open to the information they saw from the sights as to how accurate those shots were. They make up errant shots. They drive steel to the ground when they intentionally shoot until the steel falls.
There is so much variety to the USPSA match that few training scars can be produced. The shooter is constantly challenged to think and choose and act... uh, to some that would be Observe, Orient, Decide and Act.
I'll take the thousands of dollars I could spend at some guys shooting class (some guy I could likely out shoot anyways) and invest it in reloading supplies. The tens of thousands of rounds or practice and competition will do me better in my opinion.
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Uh, I try to give more than one. I only a little time in the Army, just a little time in LE, only a little. I'm not a hardcore life taker and heart-breaker.
So here goes...
Shoot faster and more accurately than the guy shooting at you (wanting/threatening to shoot at you)?
Draw faster?
If you shoot empty, reload faster?
While moving?
When he might be moving?
Or popping out from behind a wall or something (like swingers do or may be a drop turner)?
Before he grabs a hostage (like a clam-shell target) or at that time when the hostage ducks for a moment giving you a clear(er) shot (like a Maxx-Trap)?
Maybe those things the USPSA guys do at most every match...
I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce. Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time.
That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters.
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- anyone who thinks that competition is "on demand" in the sense of counter ambush response and TRULY needing to respond on demand when you aren't expecting it needs to study the brain a little more. See my quote in BF's first post.. if you know what you are going to do when the buzzer goes off (and you know that the buzzer is about to go off!) you are not really being tested at anywhere near a one to one level with your ability when you are caught off guard. That can create false confidence.
What the gamer does is much akin to what the soldier ought to be doing- developing his skills to a very high level so that the shooting part is largely subconscious. Free up his brain to see and react and decide. The soldier ought to be making plans as to what he is going to do as he rounds that corner, goes through that door, little mental plans he can execute when he is forced to do it. It's not all that different. Except when I whoop a ninja's ass on a 32 round field course its my gamer gear, my gamer style, and my game, and not my skill. I can always slow down... how come the ninja can't speed up?
-habits formed during competition that is invalid in defense shooting (such as the IDPA two shot per target stuff or the Steel challenge one shot & swing stuff) makes you LESS capable of appropriate efficient defense because it conditions you to do something that isn't optimum. You are better off not training any habit in regard to the number of shots you are going to take.
The gamer trains to make two very accurate shots in a very small length of time and be evaluating them. The gamer sees an inaccurate shot and "makes it up" - fires a third or even fourth shot until he gets the number of accurate shots he wants. When he shoots at steel he fires until the steel goes down... that's very analogous to "shoot 'em to the ground." If the bad guy ceases being a threat because he falls to the ground after one shot, why do you need the others? If it doesn't fall, keep shooting.
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That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters.
Actually I know Tyler well from other forums and believe I understood the point he was trying to make and was willing to play to his play- one steadfastly avoided by so many others in the preceding 8 pages.
Don't presume I didn't read the entire thread, I did. I happen to disagree that games are poor training for real world encounters and posted my arguments for my position.
Possibly this the, "welcome to our forums, get in line with our thinking, quick," response. Please understand I will follow forum rules, but I will not submit to the forum culture for submitting to forum culture's sake. Nor does a "big name" impress me. An invalid argument is an invalid argument.
I don't respect an resume as much as I respect the valid point.
I won't pander, but I won't be disrespectful and I don't need 800 posts to make a valid point.
Thanks.
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You might want to introduce yourself and present some sort of credentials or experience seeing as how the guy your last post is nit picking has a considerable amount of both.
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/pincus.htm
Rob Pincus is a professional trainer, author and consultant. He and his staff at I.C.E. Training Company provide services to military, law enforcement, private security and students interested in self-defense.
Rob provides efficient training methodologies to those interested in developing firearms, tactical operations and defensive skills. These methods stress gaining maximum value from limited training resources and working well with what the body does naturally under real world conditions.
Rob is the developer of the Combat Focus Shooting program, which has been integrated into military, law enforcement and defensive training programs throughout the United States and Europe. For over a decade, Rob’s ideas on training and techniques have been shared through articles in a variety of publications, television appearances, training DVDs and presentations at various conferences.
In 2006, Rob began developing the Personal Defense Video DVD Series, which covers a wide range of defensive and security topics and often features guest instructors in specialty areas. To date, over 1 million copies of the Combat Focus Shooting video alone have been distributed through the NRA to its Members.
Rob has experience as a law enforcement officer and executive protection agent and was also commissioned as an officer in the United States Army Reserve after graduating from the Military College of Vermont with a degree in Political Science. Rob serves the San Miguel County Sheriff’s Office as a Training Officer and has been a staff writer with S.W.A.T. Magazine since 2001.
From 2003 through 2007, Rob was the Director of The Valhalla Training Center in Montrose, Colorado. Rob developed the training doctrines and programs that brought Valhalla to the attention of the entire shooting industry as a leading source of reality based firearms training. During this time, Valhalla was identified by the Rand Corporation as a leader in private sector reality based training and as a sole source provider to 10th Group Army Special Forces for Extreme Close Quarters Counter Ambush training.
When the owners of Valhalla chose to close the training center component of the club, Rob began offering his training through his own company, I.C.E. Training. I.C.E. stands for Integrity, Consistency and Efficiency, the three tenets of Rob’s programs and approach to training. Staff instructors, Jeremiah Miles and John Brown continue to work with Rob under the I.C.E. banner and the company has established Regional Representative relationships with companies and instructors throughout the United States and Europe.
In 2006, Rob’s first book, Combat Focus Shooting; Intuitive Shooting Fundamentals, was published and it is now in its fifth printing.
In 2008, Rob published The Training Log Book, a hardcover book which featured over 2 dozen essays from top instructors and is designed to help people record important aspects of their training and skill development.
Rob and his team are also regularly sought out as a Team Building and Leadership Development consultants by business leaders and multi-national corporations and conduct programs involving firearm familiarization and other unique experiences.
Recently, Rob has focused on program and instructor development. Instructors groups that have sought out Rob’s expertise and integrated components of his programs include the Chicago Police Department FTU, South Wales Police Department Training Unit (UK), NSW SEAL Qualification Training, Bavarian Polizie (DE), Orange County (FL) Sheriff’s Office and 19th Group Army Special Forces. The First Annual Combat Focus Instructor’s Conference was held in October, 2008 in Houston, TX.
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Good lordy, man, you have Rob Pincus' resume memorized? That's... unsettling.
I might wanna post credentials?
You presume to think for me entirely too much.
First you presume I didn't read the entire thread. Now you presume I might want to post my credentials... oddly right after I stated I don't respect a resume as much as I respect a valid point.
Have you a valid point to discuss or are you saying that Rob Pincus isn't a big enough boy to defend his own positions? Oh, maybe a bromance?
You have a valid point? A counter to my points? I'm not impressed with you nor am I intimidated, so try another tact. A valid point.
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I was going to speak up earlier in the thread and make mention of all the super-realistic practices in the various shooting games that involve things like the pre-run walk-thru of the course of fire, the designated round counts, the see-trough mesh 'barricade" walls and such things that would prepare one for CCW.
Funny none of that happened the last time I had a gun pulled on me.
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As a matter of fact, I do have a "valid point".
You are new here and come across as a know it all blow hard,
You are the new kid on the block, no one here knows anything about you or your skill level.
Only that you have a big opinion of your self.
So doesn't Tex Grebner.
Your opinion is meaningless unless the people reading it have a reason to think you know what you are talking about.
At the moment they do not, while Pincus on the other hand is a known quantity.
He can even recognize a "cut and paste" if it's posted under the link to it.
Another thing, since you're the one coming into our community, no one gives a crap whether you're impressed or not.
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As a matter of fact, I do have a "valid point".
Then you've yet to post it.
You are new here and come across as a know it all blow hard,
Irrelevant. I could be 12 years old or SF Tier 1 DEVGRU whatever. The validity of my points stand alone, so do the points of every one else. I'll blow as hard as I want. (I set that up for you)
You are the new kid on the block, no one here knows anything about you or your skill level.
Same, same.
Only that you have a big opinion of your self.
You think I have a big opinion of myself- that's strike three. You keep presuming to know what I intend, and think, and ought to do and you keep being wrong. I believe my points are valid. That's different than having a big opinion of myself. Follow?
So doesn't Tex Grebner.
Did you mean "So does Tex Grebner (have a big opinion of himself)? Whatsamatta? Did I rattle ya?
Your opinion is meaningless unless the people reading it have a reason to think you know what you are talking about.
Flawed logic. My argument stands on it's own merits. Have you a problem understanding that?
At the moment they do not, while Pincus on the other hand is a known quantity.
And wrong.
He can even recognize a "cut and paste" if it's posted under the link to it.
I did rattle you.
Another thing, since you're the one coming into our community, no one gives a crap whether you're impressed or not.
Apparently you do, since it bothers you soooo much.
Hey, Tom, Rob and I both have BA's, and were commissioned officer's in the USAR, were both Deputies on Sheriff's departments...
Keep beggin' I'll fill you in with more info as I deem you worthy. But I'll tease you with this- I shoot well enough to have a trophy wall, have won guns and frames being able to beat other shooters, a pretty high classification in USPSA, come on, don't you wanna know more?
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Then you've yet to post it.
Irrelevant. I could be 12 years old or SF Tier 1 DEVGRU whatever. The validity of my points stand alone, so do the points of every one else. I'll blow as hard as I want. (I set that up for you)
Same, same.
You think I have a big opinion of myself- that's strike three. You keep presuming to know what I intend, and think, and ought to do and you keep being wrong. I believe my points are valid. That's different than having a big opinion of myself. Follow?
Did you mean "So does Tex Grebner (have a big opinion of himself)? Whatsamatta? Did I rattle ya?
Flawed logic. My argument stands on it's own merits. Have you a problem understanding that?
And wrong.
I did rattle you.
Apparently you do, since it bothers you soooo much.
Hey, Tom, Rob and I both have BA's, and were commissioned officer's in the USAR, were both Deputies on Sheriff's departments...
Keep beggin' I'll fill you in with more info as I deem you worthy. But I'll tease you with this- I shoot well enough to have a trophy wall, have won guns and frames being able to beat other shooters, a pretty high classification in USPSA, come on, don't you wanna know more?
hey new guy,...
here's a nice little thread called 'new member intro' just for you. how about introducing yourself and meeting the family?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=19.0
everyone here is open to discuss new ideas, politics and .... well. .... whatever you have to sell. good group here and always full of sarcasm and fun. the way life should be. ;D
oh yeah, as for Tom and such, don't worry, they are the most respected, most beloved members on this forum. if there is something to ask, ask Tom, he will not spout BS or propaganda. if he says something, he has already researched and found out all there is to find out about the subject. check him out. (prick)
Deepwater
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I was going to speak up earlier in the thread and make mention of all the super-realistic practices in the various shooting games that involve things like the pre-run walk-thru of the course of fire, the designated round counts, the see-trough mesh 'barricade" walls and such things that would prepare one for CCW.
Funny none of that happened the last time I had a gun pulled on me.
I was going to speak up earlier on all the experts on gun games that really aren't. Thanks for affording a timely opportunity.
I did however make mention of correlation between walk throughs and mental prep as you walk down the street.
It's not a designated round count, it's a minimum round count. One isn't restricted in most cases to that number of shots fired. Other courses of fire up the stress by limiting the number of shots so that there are no make up shots. Forcing a more even playing field between competitors in things like classifiers and helping establish a more honest test of shooting skill. It forces a shooter to be honest with himself and his shooting skill. It makes it burn a lot more when a self-perceived bad-ass faces the fact that the fat lawyer just kicked his ass with a gun. We don't care what your resume is. It's put or shut up time. Shoot and live with the consequences. We challenge that "false sense of confidence."
Wow, ya got the gamers with the mesh walls. I didn't see any mess walls at the USPSA Nationals. Only about half of the walls are mesh at my club- I guess gamers are just pretenders because they build walls which are easier to move and withstand wind more easily so that the match runs smoothly. Since it's sarcasm and not real points I'll observe that it must be those mesh walls that make my draw sub 1 second, my splits sub 0.2 sec, allowed be to shoot the triple nickel 8 times in a row sub 5 sec., shoot pepper poppers at 50 yards without breaking a sweat... and not the 15k - 20k of rounds I shoot a year, the countless dry fires, the matches every weekend (almost). Weren't no mesh walls the last time a gun was pulled on me neither- weren't no walls at all. Just empty road. I don't think you're points valid.
I do know that I wish I was as good of a shooter when I carried a commission as I am now, without a doubt I'm better prepared for carrying concealed or for carrying openly with a badge.
And every active LEO who is also a USPSA shooter will say the same thing.
At some point during the gunfight all ya got is your shooting skill. At that moment, you want it to be better than the guy trying to kill you as much as possible.
Oddly, that's how guys sell ya on spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a three day class with "him." He promises to make ya a better shooter.
Like Tyler Durden observed earlier in this thread. If you get better shooting USPSA or IDPA or Steel Challenge you're not giving "him" the money.
Deep down, most ninjas don't want to force on force with the gamers- it's why they limit the classes to LE/Mil only. It protects egos. He kinda already knows that the gamer is gonna draw faster, while moving and shoot better while moving, and shooter better at moving targets than him- cuz he practices it ALL THE TIME. And the ninja doesn't.
As I already observed. I can always slow down, my shooting only gets better. How come the ninja can't raise to the level of the competition? He ain't got the skills if he ain't got the skills.
Thanks for the opportunity to submit more valid points for consideration.
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hey new guy,...
here's a nice little thread called 'new member intro' just for you.
Everybody here so arrogantly thinks they know what's best for me, knows what I'm thinking, knows what I've not done... yet they keep being wrong. And what's this obsession with the resume? As if Col. Cooper himself said the isosceles stance was an abomination that would make it true. Uh, oops, he did say that and it ain't true. So much for resumes. Uh, hmmm. Sorry for the thread drift.
I'll make the point simply for you and Tom and anyone else suffering the delusion; if you say 1+1=3, it ain't never gonna be true, no matter your background.
how about introducing yourself and meeting the family?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=19.0
everyone here is open to discuss new ideas, politics and .... well. .... whatever you have to sell. good group here and always full of sarcasm and fun. the way life should be. ;D
oh yeah, as for Tom and such, don't worry, they are the most respected, most beloved members on this forum. if there is something to ask, ask Tom, he will not spout BS or propaganda. if he says something, he has already researched and found out all there is to find out about the subject. check him out. (prick)
Deepwater
Wow, yer uh... classy. I'm certain calling some one a "prick" is a violation of the TOS... I just don't use the report to moderators function.
Yer post says more about you than one word ever says about me.
Other than calling me vulgar terms, have you something else valid to add to the discussion of how dangerous USPSA/IDPA shooting is to surviving a gun fight?
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What an awesome welcoming committee. ::)
Never let it be said that the DownRangeTV forums aren't open to intelligent discussion of points... That personal attacks are avoided and the logic, rationale and merits of the posts are all that matter.
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Steve,
I shot my first USPSA match last weekend in Limited with my stock XDM 45 & the plastic holsters that came with it, in fact I'm shooting another tomorrow and yes I got my @ss spanked last weekend(61st out of 75 that finished & 77 that started-21st overall in the Classifier though ;) ). I agree that I'm more prepared to use a gun in self defense now than I was before the match BUT I'm not going to say that if people don't shoot competitions they are preparing to fail. I spent a year as a bail bondsman and did my own recoveries and during that time I learned things that you will never see in a USPSA/IPSC/IDPA stage EVER!
As Masad Ayoob says, "Shooting competitions are not gunfights but gunfights are shooting competitions."
My $.02 and welcome to DRTV ;D
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I think the truth lies somewhere in the reality of taking what you've learned training (always learning, always training), applying that learning in much "realistic" practice, reflecting and learning from both your training and your practice and then using what works for you to avoid the dogma that slows you down. Of course that much can be added too all of that too...but I am slow so I need to keep it simple so I can understand.
Different doctrines begin to emerge after you've spent some time training with people. I'm just an old, fat engineer who loves to shoot and takes responsibility for my family and my own protection. However, I have an avantage other's don't because I pass by a nationally recognized training center everyday to work and home...so I'm a member and I train. There are different doctrines among the instructors there and I think it's great.
There's a military door-kickin' doctrine from some of the guys from the sand box, a modified doctrine from some of the guys who have trained SF, another doctrine from police officers and then there's the guys who provide personal protection services. I have benefited from all of the doctrines and improved my performance by mixing and matching what I've learned and applying it to a practice that reflects what my environment will most likely be.
Some guys are steadfast in their doctrine of training only with the weapon you will be shooting. For me..OK, I see some benefit but hogwash if you think that's an absolute for everyone. I shoot a .22 to mix up my practice (and save money) and by shooting the lowly .22 in an odd mix I catch bad habits forming and work them out then go to my big gun and focus on working them out there....my shooting improved tremendously and if I had stayed with the doctrine of training with what you will be shooting I'd be way behind where I am now in my limited ability. You may be different...that's OK...I do what works for me and you should do what works for you.
Another example, the military doctrine trainers have me on carbine moving the barrel down and on safe when moving from left-to-right or right-to-left for targets with a mix bad guys and friendlys...the personal protection people are adament about moving across and sweeping with the safety off because their bad guys kill friendlys more quickly (depending on situation of course) and you need to put lead downrange more quickly. OK..I can see that, chaotic military conditions of combat of a force meeting a force versus a protection thing where the bad guys have infiltrated and have actuated plan where they are controlling the tempo and they know what the next move is as opposed to both sides needing to sort out who is what and where. What's more applicable to me defending my family....if I'm in a crowd and sides are being chosen if I have a choice I'll take the military doctrine and if the bad guys have already chosen sides and are in motion with their plan I'll avoid the slower military doctrine for the personal protection doctrine if innocents are at immediate risk of certain death.
There are probably only a very few things we can all agree on. Like, maybe, we can all agree that leaving your ammo at home and carrying an unloaded concealed weapon is probably not going to be as effective in a life threatening self-defense moment as a loaded gun.
The best thing always....to avoid the bad situation you've found yourself in.
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Steve,
I shot my first USPSA match last weekend in Limited with my stock XDM 45 & the plastic holsters that came with it, in fact I'm shooting another tomorrow and yes I got my @ss spanked last weekend(61st out of 75 that finished & 77 that started-21st overall in the Classifier though ;) ). I agree that I'm more prepared to use a gun in self defense now than I was before the match BUT I'm not going to say that if people don't shoot competitions they are preparing to fail. I spent a year as a bail bondsman and did my own recoveries and during that time I learned things that you will never see in a USPSA/IPSC/IDPA stage EVER!
As Masad Ayoob says, "Shooting competitions are not gunfights but gunfights are shooting competitions."
My $.02 and welcome to DRTV ;D
Thanks, Magoo. Now imagine how much better you'll be a few years from now having shot a lot more matches and more importantly, gone out and practiced for USPSA's dynamic style of shooting.
On a slight variation of what you posted, the only people I think are preparing to fail are those not preparing. People who don't practice, don't challenge, don't stress themselves, are preparing to fail. Unlike the OP, I don't think USPSA is the most dangerous thing I've ever seen.
Frankly, the OP's post was of questionable veracity. Maybe his hot shots weren't my hot shots. But I've never seen the hot shots use cover as a rest. Sometimes hands go through ports if that's the only way to get the shot. Most hot shots stay out of the ports as getting into and out of ports is slow and dangerous to gun functionality. A thinking man understands not to place his gun around blind corners.
So USPSA shooters don't immediately unload at the end of their stage- they scan the targets for misses. Other's don't, but it's a choice they make. Not a requirement forced upon them.
Thanks for the reasoned response. Have a great day.
8)
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I think the truth lies somewhere in the reality of taking what you've learned training (always learning, always training), applying that learning in much "realistic" practice, reflecting and learning from both your training and your practice and then using what works for you to avoid the dogma that slows you down. Of course that much can be added too all of that too...but I am slow so I need to keep it simple so I can understand.
Different doctrines begin to emerge after you've spent some time training with people. I'm just an old, fat engineer who loves to shoot and takes responsibility for my family and my own protection. However, I have an avantage other's don't because I pass by a nationally recognized training center everyday to work and home...so I'm a member and I train. There are different doctrines among the instructors there and I think it's great.
There's a military door-kickin' doctrine from some of the guys from the sand box, a modified doctrine from some of the guys who have trained SF, another doctrine from police officers and then there's the guys who provide personal protection services. I have benefited from all of the doctrines and improved my performance by mixing and matching what I've learned and applying it to a practice that reflects what my environment will most likely be.
Some guys are steadfast in their doctrine of training only with the weapon you will be shooting. For me..OK, I see some benefit but hogwash if you think that's an absolute for everyone. I shoot a .22 to mix up my practice (and save money) and by shooting the lowly .22 in an odd mix I catch bad habits forming and work them out then go to my big gun and focus on working them out there....my shooting improved tremendously and if I had stayed with the doctrine of training with what you will be shooting I'd be way behind where I am now in my limited ability. You may be different...that's OK...I do what works for me and you should do what works for you.
Another example, the military doctrine trainers have me on carbine moving the barrel down and on safe when moving from left-to-right or right-to-left for targets with a mix bad guys and friendlys...the personal protection people are adament about moving across and sweeping with the safety off because their bad guys kill friendlys more quickly (depending on situation of course) and you need to put lead downrange more quickly. OK..I can see that, chaotic military conditions of combat of a force meeting a force versus a protection thing where the bad guys have infiltrated and have actuated plan where they are controlling the tempo and they know what the next move is as opposed to both sides needing to sort out who is what and where. What's more applicable to me defending my family....if I'm in a crowd and sides are being chosen if I have a choice I'll take the military doctrine and if the bad guys have already chosen sides and are in motion with their plan I'll avoid the slower military doctrine for the personal protection doctrine if innocents are at immediate risk of certain death.
There are probably only a very few things we can all agree on. Like, maybe, we can all agree that leaving your ammo at home and carrying an unloaded concealed weapon is probably not going to be as effective in a life threatening self-defense moment as a loaded gun.
The best thing always....to avoid the bad situation you've found yourself in.
Morning Rastus,
Thank you for correctly identifying the dangers of dogma and dogmatic thinking, and, the value of training, learning, practicing. The world needs more pragmatic thinking.
The shooting world and the ninja variants in particular seem rife with the next guy trying to have a stance or a grip named after him and becoming so dogmatic he's no longer thinking.
I start my classes with an introduction to Einstein...
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. -Albert Einstein
It's easy to over whelm someone with 10,000 different tactics for 200 different scenarios.
What we do know is that if they are in a gun fight, they will need to be the best shooter they can be because their skills are going to degrade. If not first, being the best shooter as a skill set is a very close second. Like Magoo said. The tactic of avoidance is best. If they are shooting, it will be fast, furious, up close and most "tactics" won't be in play. The tactic which will be in play is speed and accuracy. Speed and accuracy is a fine tactic, probably the best.
USPSA shooters are fast and accurate... and thinking while doing it.
8)
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<<<<<<<Not a ninja...
Another fat-ish engineer who knows darn well that one gains proficiency and experience with practice and trigger time is the only thing that is going to make you more proficient with a firearm. However one gains that proficiency, with the understanding that nothing ever happens the way we want it to, is better off than sitting on the couch watching training videos!
What others call a "dynamic critical incident", I call a "cluster f..k"! It's always better to NOT be there when the SHTF but if you are, it's important to be able to hit what's aiming at you when you need to!
Welcome Steven, enjoy the party!
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Being old, fat, slow and generally limited in capability an important point and limitation for me is to move and shoot. If confronted in a gun fight a quick sidestep to the left gives the BG 0.3 seconds or so of pause to assimilate and react and, because most people are right handed, might give me a little edge by moving my right hand on the inside and his to the outside (assuming most of the time he'll be right handed). That and me knowing what my next action will be. That 0.25 or 0.3 seconds may make the difference between him dotting my eyes/heart/spine or shooting an ear or arm or whatever instead. I'll be hoping that puts me in the lead on the situation since I know where I'm going in this instance, circumstances permitting of course.
Because I haven't addressed my physical conditioning...I'm best for one or two sidesteps then fix and fight. I'll be hoping the BG will increase our mutual friend distance and violence will be unnecessary.
Like MB says, every confrontation is a chaos situation and the outcome for any particular instance cannot be predicted. Play the percentages based upon your own capabilities.
I'm looking forward to more reasoned responses Steve. I'm always looking for another nugget to add which improves my percentages. Welcome to DRTV.
Timothy can I mix couch and practice? I'm getting tired just thinkin' 'bout all this stuff. You? ;)
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Timothy can I mix couch and practice? I'm getting tired just thinkin' 'bout all this stuff. You?
You can with dry firing for sure but you already know that! ;)
BTW, you're three years younger 'un me there pard and I only have one hip! My best tactic is running away screaming like a teenage girl, flailing my arms wildly...but I digress!
;D
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You can with dry firing for sure but you already know that! ;)
BTW, you're three years younger 'un me there pard and I only have one hip! My best tactic is running hobbling away screaming like a teenage girl, flailing my arms wildly...but I digress!
;D
FIFY ;D
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FIFY ;D
A better verb in this instance but I am walking about 12-15 miles a week now so I'm actually able to walk without the hobble. Running is not pretty!
:D
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12 to 15 is pretty good for a guy who can't get through a metal detector.
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12 to 15 is pretty good for a guy who can't get through a metal detector.
My goal is at least 4 per day and take Sunday off.
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My goal is at least 4 per day and take Sunday off.
:o Darn.
What kind of terrain do you have there ?
When I was living in Exeter I would go down and walk North Beach in Hampton, 3 or 6 miles every day.
I parked at one end so if I was tired after 1 1/2 that was just to damn bad, if I wanted my car I had to finish ;D.
Last place I was living it was half way down one mountain (Copple Crown, it used to be a ski slope ) and half way up another.
I felt I did good like hell if I got 1 round trip, about a mile.
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:o Darn.
What kind of terrain do you have there ?
Around the neighborhood, it's flat. Two laps is one mile exactly. When we go into the State Forest and hike the trails it's pretty tough for me as it's the little stabilizing muscles that are so week on that side. One or two miles and I'm wooped. It has a lot of elevation change.
Do you realize that we've manged to drift a 2-1/2 year old thread?
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...
Do you realize that we've manged to drift a 2-1/2 year old thread?
Yes, because that's what old fat slow people do.
A good go-by for understanding where your proficiency is. I believe these are correct as listed minimums.
Gunsite Basic Times
Target # Shots Distance, Yards Time, seconds Position
Head 1 3 1.5 From draw
Body 2 7 1.5 From draw
Body 2 10 2 From draw
Body 2 15 3.5 Kneeling from holster
Body 2 25 7 Prone from holster
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Around the neighborhood, it's flat. Two laps is one mile exactly. When we go into the State Forest and hike the trails it's pretty tough for me as it's the little stabilizing muscles that are so week on that side. One or two miles and I'm wooped. It has a lot of elevation change.
Do you realize that we've manged to drift a 2-1/2 year old thread?
;D
Yes, because that's what old fat slow people do.
You may be "old", but I'm chronologically gifted. ;D
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<<<<<<<Not a ninja...
Another fat-ish engineer who knows darn well that one gains proficiency and experience with practice and trigger time is the only thing that is going to make you more proficient with a firearm. However one gains that proficiency, with the understanding that nothing ever happens the way we want it to, is better off than sitting on the couch watching training videos!
What others call a "dynamic critical incident", I call a "cluster f..k"! It's always better to NOT be there when the SHTF but if you are, it's important to be able to hit what's aiming at you when you need to!
Welcome Steven, enjoy the party!
LOL!
Will you be my new best friend?!?!
That post was awesome. I salute you, sir.
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LOL!
Will you be my new best friend?!?!
That post was awesome. I salute you, sir.
I have lots of friends, one more that lives 2000 miles away wouldn't hurt!
I understand you're a smithy as well! We always need the opinion of a good mechanic!
Keep your sense of humor, we're a good bunch 'round here! ;)
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I have lots of friends, one more that lives 2000 miles away wouldn't hurt!
I understand you're a smithy as well! We always need the opinion of a good mechanic!
Keep your sense of humor, we're a good bunch 'round here! ;)
Actually, I'm not that Steve Cline.
San Antonio boasts two men named Steve Cline- Mr. Cline of Cline's Trigger Shop is the man you are thinking of.
I'm the local "hot shot" (as the OP would put it), who is a USPSA Master Class shooter in the Single Stack Division. I've won the Texas Single Stack Shootout two years running, won the SS Division in 2011 at the Texas State Limited match, I've finished in the Top 50 at a USPSA Nationals, and won numerous other smaller matches in the SS Division while whipping many shooters with great capacity firearms.
I do have a BA,was a commissioned officer in the USAR and worked for a Sheriff's Dept. (also? sound familiar as par of my resume, does that?). Now I do corporate security for the world's largest telecom, and teach some classes locally with an NRA Pistol Cert.
I don't claim more than that, I won't exaggerated it (much) but I won't minimize it either.
It's nice to make your acquaintance.
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The core of this OPs post are some errors. That the local hot shots were even hot shots is one- I've never seen any shooter in USPSA try the brace the gun when shooting for speed. After that first time, experienced shooters advise against it. They never do it again.
At the core of the "debate" is the training scar. In simple terms, a training scar is the indoctrination of something to the point that one does it without thinking, and the thing is done because it is what one always does in training or practice. It is a negative term; it should have a negative effect. To really drive home a habit, stress is introduced. Military training engages in this using repetition and stess: "SPORTS!" screams the Drill as you execute your immediate action drill to the M16/M4 not firing. "Get behind cover, reload that gun! Faster faster! You're partner is getting shot while you fumble with that magazine!" And the Training Cadre is doing the same to you. You can induce your own stress with competition and create patterns/habits which will likely be auto-engaged. So one question might be, "is it a scar" or a good practice or even a habit?
The most easily understand example of the training scar was the "policing" of brass on the range after each sub-set of shooting a qual. Officers were found dead with brass in hand or in pockets- they had been so conditioned (though repetition and angry loud direction (stressor) to "pick that brass up off my range!" that they did it in a fire-fight when they should have been focused on killing the f....r.
http://www.nlptimes.com/blog/2009/06/07 ... -practice/
The attempt by some to label the practice of shooting only twice at a target as training scar is understandable, but dubious. It really depends on what the individual is doing as opposed to the simple practice/habit of scoring the best two shots per paper. In USPSA we score the best two hits per paper, so the assumption is we fire two shots at the paper, no more, no less, and move on.
(Recently I ran a stage were we scored the best three hits per paper... interesting reactions from shooters when we asked them to think a bit more on one course of fire).
If the individual is shooting a shot, seeing the sights when the shot breaks, then doing the same things a second time, and having seen two accurately fired shoots, decides to move on this is less a of a negative scar than can be reasonably argued. This shooter will make up one or more inaccurately fired shots. Thus, no scar of blindly firing two shots and moving on no matter what is being created. That would be a training scar. And, that is the training scar that is being proposed. It is is proposed because some don't understand what "we" are doing.
It is correct that USPSA shooters should not be "programming" ourselves to shoot twice and roll on, we should instead be programming ourselves to make good called shots first and programming ourselves to make up inaccurate shots. This is programming to think. Not to mindlessly do by rote. The former is never a scar, the later would be.
We SHOULD be seeing a sight picture and calling the shots. Are we always? Maybe not. But proper visual patience and called shots are the counter to the perceived "scar." Oddly, all LEOs and Military guys should suffer this same scar- In training and quals both they can't shoot a target to the ground. Instead they shot per a standard format, set number of shots, under a set time limit and are graded... they are gaming.
I know I just stepped on some toes. Harden the "f" up and keep reading. You'll see I am right and why without intentionally being a jerk.
LE and Mil are required to shoot the min (and often Max) number of shots per paper. The paper targets don't fall so they don't actually instill a shoot to the ground training or practice. So, I ask the "ninja" how he practices shooting a target to the ground? IN all likelihood.. He doesn't (unless he is creative enough to attach a falling steel behind the target and shoot it until the shots passing through the paper impact the steel enough times to drag it down. Instead the "ninja" shoots the target repeatedly with no real reinforcement of accuracy and says he's not scarred. Instead, he's substituted the poor practice of shooting a random but large number of shots for the practice of only two shots. In reality our USPSA "practice" is no less dangerous than all the LE and Mil training and practice... ruminate on that. Use it with my permission. If either the USPSA shooter or LE/Mil bothers to call his shots and makes up any of the shots he calls inaccurate, then no scar is being created.
As mentioned, steel is another counter to this perceived training scar, shoot the steel to the ground, make it up if the shot was errant or ineffective.
A true training scar might be the rush to unload and show clear. If we want our competitive sport to help support our self-defense maybe we ought not immediately drop the mag and empty the chamber. But wait, reality says the following: unless the bad-guy calls out IfFinished,Unload And Show Clear... and I do it like an automaton; I'm not worried about a training scar.
In reality I have shot the targets I wanted to shoot. Saw the shots I wanted to see, made up the shots I wanted to make up, drove steel to the ground, and often scanned the last few targets to hits before I start to unload. Again, do your USC as a deliberate thinking act, not a blind and mindless act.
BTW, we don't shoot 32 (minimum) courses of fire because we stupidly think we'll be engage by 16 bad guys... we do it because it is FUNNNER than shooting 1 target 8 times, or 5 targets 2 or 3 times. Consider- if I can keep my head in the game through 16 targets, I'm more ready than those you can't to deal with 1 or 2 guys which I might need to engage with a whole bunch or shots for whatever reasons.
The stupid argument that USPSA shooters won't react to visual stimulus to engage bad guys, because we are trained to react to a buzzer; and the often associated USPSA shooters will shoot innocents when ever they hear a buzzer is sad lame BS and intellectual/academic pap. All the observing shooters don't react the buzzer, ready for it or not, do they? 'Nuff said.
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My final reaction to the OP is that I've never seen anything more dangerous than the dogmatic, closed minded reaction to USPSA and IDPA than displayed in the post.
It's the reaction and the decision, not the individual I take exception to.
In the end, I'll tell you what a Marine LTC, sometimes instructor, combat vet of many ops (including the capture of Sadam's sons) said after a practice session and having seen my speed and accuracy.
"If I am every in a firefight, I want Steve on my side." That's high praise and I accept it graciously. To return the favor, I know I want him to teach me and my son, tactics, combatives, and aggressive mindset- because I've seen his in action and found it as impressive as he apparently found my shooting skills... and I'm not even the best in the sport.
I've never been of an us v them mentality- simply aggressively defending the sport and bringing education on what we are actually doing.
Cheers.
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You have completely missed the point of the OP.
There was not one single word of IDPA versus USPSA involved in the entire first page.
I went back and checked.
The only mention of a particular game was Ratcatcher saying he had seen the same thing in his particular sport.
The point the op was making was that if you do that stuff in the real world you can get killed.
That was why he wrote that they were allowing a timer to force them into bad decisions.
Until you posted the whole discussion was centered on the training aid these may have started as and the "games" that they have become which makes them nearly useless as training for real world situations.
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You have completely missed the point of the OP.
No, I didn't.
There was not one single word of IDPA versus USPSA involved in the entire first page.
And no mention of USPSA v IDPA in any of my posts, either.
I went back and checked.
Go back and check all my posts. I don't hold much hope it will help your reading comprehension. But, here are the Cliff Notes: Steven Cline didn't create a single USPSA v. IDPA post.
The only mention of a particular game was Ratcatcher saying he had seen the same thing in his particular sport.
If you say so.
The point the op was making was that if you do that stuff in the real world you can get killed.
And I am saying the OP incorrect assessed what the shooters were doing and why. He can "waller" in all his tactical glory, I still believe he lacks one of the most critical of tactics- gun skill.
That was why he wrote that they were allowing a timer to force them into bad decisions.
Bad decisions if that was real window with real bad guys or the right decision to solve the shooting equation presented to them. You and I don't know since we weren't there seeing the stages.
Hands through windows- bad idea in some situations, absolutely necessary in other situations.
Using cover as rest instead of cover- interesting possibility, though if your resting the gun on cover you're probably getting cover, though in some situations the shooter may feel the stability is offset by the lessened cover. Great thing about USPSA; shooter solves the problem, not black and white thinking. Creativity and thinking is rewarded.
Cutting the pie is an IDPA thing, I've seen IDPA cutting the pie- it's not my cutting the pie either. Well, the OP gets 1 for 3 so far.
Unloading the gun because you have too to satisfy the safety rules (and actually not dictated by the timer, did you catch that little incongruity?). Not sure that's nuts.
So we can waste out time discussing meaningless hypotheticals. Or, you can. I'm actually not interested any more.
Until you posted the whole discussion was centered on the training aid these may have started as and the "games" that they have become which makes them nearly useless as training for real world situations.
Wrong again. Tyler Durden asked a wonderful question largely ignored. Mostly because some people looked a few logical steps ahead and one sees what BBBean wrote in my sig line.
Once again. You're focused on me, or the wrong things such as what I didn't actually say and are steadfastly what I actually did write.
You can't brow beat me into accepting what you believe is this forums standard mind-think; you don't have anything close to the ability. I won't let you get away with misstating my position or my statements. I am unimpressed with your posts. Why are you still here yammering at me?
Have you anything to contribute?
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Your continuing slanders of the original poster show what sort of a person you are.
He was looking for a training aid and found a game.
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Your continuing slanders of the original poster show what sort of a person you are.
He was looking for a training aid and found a game.
We can agree on one thing- he went looking for a training aid but he found a game.
We probably won't ever agree that he missed that the game is a wonderful training aid.
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Who'd have thunk there were two guys with the same name! :o
Anyway, pleased to make your acquaintance as well. ;)
Indeed. When I called him the first time I introduced myself as his name sake. He responded, "So, yer the guy causing me all the problems." Turned out that all his friends were accusing him competing again and calling him a liar when he denied it.
We've become friends, though he charges me for any smith work I want. :'(
Now, ask me how many Juan Martinez's are in San Antonio, TX... ;D
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Indeed. When I called him the first time I introduced myself as his name sake. He responded, "So, yer the guy causing me all the problems." Turned out that all his friends were accusing him competing again and calling him a liar when he denied it.
We've become friends, though he charges me for any smith work I want. :'(
Now, ask me how many Juan Martinez's are in San Antonio, TX... ;D
That's like looking for a Hispanic Male in his 20s or 30s 5'7", 180 lbs, black hair, and brown eyes in central Washington.
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We can agree on one thing- he went looking for a training aid but he found a game.
We probably won't ever agree that he missed that the game is a wonderful training aid.
Darn, you ain't never right.
I don't know about "wonderful", but I will agree that
A) Any time spent pulling the trigger accurately on targets it's good training.
B) Doing it under pressure of a timer adds a useful stress factor.
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Indeed. When I called him the first time I introduced myself as his name sake. He responded, "So, yer the guy causing me all the problems." Turned out that all his friends were accusing him competing again and calling him a liar when he denied it.
We've become friends, though he charges me for any smith work I want. :'(
Now, ask me how many Juan Martinez's are in San Antonio, TX... ;D
I have a similar story concerning my wife and a local fella who has my name as well. She was working at a local department store and mentioned she was marrying me to a co-worker. A few days later, the OTHER me came into the store demanding to see the girl who was spreading the vicious rumor! They had a chat and a laugh and my wife assures me that she made the better choice!
8)
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I have a similar story concerning my wife and a local fella who has my name as well. She was working at a local department store and mentioned she was marrying me to a co-worker. A few days later, the OTHER me came into the store demanding to see the girl who was spreading the vicious rumor! They had a chat and a laugh and my wife assures me that she made the better choice!
8)
well so she tells you... :P
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well so she tells you... :P
Well, he showed up in a purple tu tu, fairy wings, a little wand and fritzed about the store! ;D
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Well, he showed up in a purple tu tu, fairy wings, a little wand and fritzed about the store! ;D
Oh, snap!
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Well, he showed up in a purple tu tu, fairy wings, a little wand and fritzed about the store! ;D
hahah
sounded like a good bloke then :P
bic.
it is Bazinga :P
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120413215357/lego/images/c/c4/Bazinga.jpg)
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Well, he showed up in a purple tu tu, fairy wings, a little wand and fritzed about the store! ;D
Did his breath smell of wallaby and garlic?
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Did his breath smell of wallabry and garlic?
Damn little wallaby to be had in New London, CT!
Plenty of garlic though... ;D
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what BBBean wrote in my sig line.
Happy to contribute.
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Darn, you ain't never right.
I don't know about "wonderful", but I will agree that
A) Any time spent pulling the trigger accurately on targets it's good training.
B) Doing it under pressure of a timer adds a useful stress factor.
Couldn't bow out gracefully, could ya.
Just had to take one more jab.
If I've been wrong, you haven't posted how I was. Instead you demanded a resume.
Let's talk resumes, sorta-
I'll take a guess- you've been to a number of schools. You have the patches and pins to prove it. You love tough internet about the best way to deal with a mob attacking a dinner, but you ain't never put a round down range in the last 10 years against someone else to see who could actually shoot.
You drink the cool-aid. "This guys cool sounding and charismatic, I'll follow him!" (Pssst, they get endless takes to get it right). You know everything the internet has to say about guns except how to press the trigger.
You got 24k+ posts on the forum, have ya got 24k rounds fired yet? In yer life? I almost get that fired in a year.
So where ya wanna go from here, Tommy? You want to finally address how the points I made were wrong? Or you wanna be an internet pussy? Don't hit that report to mod button yer ready for me to do the same to yer buddy, Deepwater.
If you got a point to make, other that the false idea I have to kiss ass to a 24K poster before I get to have an opinion, then make it.
Otherwise, shut the hell up.
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=14651.msg251747#msg251747
"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters."
That 24K+ posts should have been a clue that if I suggest the "new guy" tone down the attitude I might know what I'm talking about.
Added later
Since it is to hot to sleep I will elaborate on my previous posts concerning "Steven Cline".
You have insulted the intelligence , knowledge, and ability of valued members and a forum moderator since your very first post.
That sort of attitude may be acceptable in the Politics forum which tends to be like rugby with out the ball.
It is not acceptable in the forums where other people are trying to share information.
We especially do not tell people to
"Otherwise, shut the hell up.
Your refusal to moderate your attitude after several suggestions does not reflect well on you as either a Deputy Sheriff or as a human being.
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Morning Rastus,
<snip>
What we do know is that if they are in a gun fight, they will need to be the best shooter gunfighter they can be because their skills are going to degrade.
<snip>
Had to tweak you a bit there in the context of being a shooter which I generally and maybe wrongly here interpreted as being a "range" or "plinking" shooter. I am an engineer, I'm picky. I'm not trying to play gotcha with words this is a dialogue. I do believe there is a difference between being a shooter and a gunfighter.
I'd rather be the best gunfighter than the best shooter in a fight. Bullets are not restricted to an outgoing ballistic path. For self-defense I believe the mindset should be that if you choose to carry a gun and defend yourself and the worst day of your life happens then you should train to be a gunfighter.
The instructors that train me teach that shooting is not gunfighting and make a point to prepare a mindset of "Winning the fight" by training. It's not just a cheesy slogan and when I reflected on the reality of being in a fight and not just shooting (as in cans, steel or paper)...clearly the slogan is not cheesy. If one finds themselves in a self-defense situation they cannot avoid and the BG has a gun they are not shooting....they are gunfighting. Shooting competitions do help to prepare us for this. I take fighting for granted because in my adult life I have always accepted that doctrine of fighting having had a 38 shoved in my unarmed face at age 14 with nowhere to run and having been put in other unfortunate situations of having knives pulled on me when young...I've no doubt when I am in a fight and will act accordingly.
OK...let's think about this a bit. Though I don't participate regularly, I like IDPA and I know and like the USPSA guys. I have respect for both disciplines/sports and the good things they bring to the table. I just don't get the feeling I am in a fight when shooting IDPA and the closest to USPSA I've shot was Phil Strader's Pro-Am when it was in Tulsa. How can we change the "stress innoculation" in competition to reflect better being in a gunfight? I am in no way be suggesting being downrange of actual bullets or standing beside or in front of someone who is shooting.
I know we have paper targets with bad guys holding guns imprinted on them...but I ain't scared of a paper bad guy.... I pretty much just shoot at them because they are holding a gun in the scenario....so in my mind I am shooting and not fighting. Maybe competing is the best that can be done to simulate a fight but I don't think so. I think this is a legitimate question, "How do you better imitate a gunfighting competition and less of a shooting competition?" I have no idea right now....and I have no idea to this day how that guy got those big old 20mm cannon bullets in the cylinder of that itty bitty 38 snubby he was pointing at my face, but believe me when I say he did.
Time for bed....my head is hurting with all this typing. Timothy, that fella that had Wallaby on his breath in New London wasn't named Jody was he?
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I think we should all take up golf....
Just sayin....
;D
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I think we should all take up golf....
Just sayin....
;D
Arrghhhh! Et tu, Magoo? Has thou lost thine rabbit-assed mind?
I'm shocked I tell you; shocked and dismayed. I have lost all confidence in my fellowman. You have broken me...I am a broken shell of a man.....I might even vote for Obama. See what you've done!!!
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Arrghhhh! Et tu, Magoo? Has thou lost thine rabbit-assed mind?
I'm shocked I tell you; shocked and dismayed. I have lost all confidence in my fellowman. You have broken me...I am a broken shell of a man.....I might even vote for Obama. See what you've done!!!
NOO!!!!! I'm kidding, come back from the cliff!
I think prisoners with life sentences ought to have their sentences forgiven if they can shoot an even round (par on every hole-whatever that is called) then they will know true punishment.
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=14651.msg251747#msg251747
"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters."
That 24K+ posts should have been a clue that if I suggest the "new guy" tone down the attitude I might know what I'm talking about.
Added later
Since it is to hot to sleep I will elaborate on my previous posts concerning "Steven Cline".
You have insulted the intelligence , knowledge, and ability of valued members and a forum moderator since your very first post.
That sort of attitude may be acceptable in the Politics forum which tends to be like rugby with out the ball.
It is not acceptable in the forums where other people are trying to share information.
We especially do not tell people to
"Your refusal to moderate your attitude after several suggestions does not reflect well on you as either a Deputy Sheriff or as a human being.
Understood the incorrect belief that participating in shooting sports (games) was dangerous from the beginning, posted reasons for why it was wrong. Haven't seen a post from you yet as to how the logic is wrong or the points invalid. Still waiting.
Don't care much about your opinion of me. It's not a valid point either.
24k posts doesn't prove anything except a lot of time on your hands.
Pony up reasons. An argument. A fact. Pick at my reasons, by logic, my argument.
For you and you only- it's not a new guy attitude. It's a you've given me no reason to respect you attitude, plenty or reasons to disrespect you attitude.
We're doing fine in the other thread on the Summer Meltdown thread. Try the same technique here.
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Had to tweak you a bit there in the context of being a shooter which I generally and maybe wrongly here interpreted as being a "range" or "plinking" shooter. I am an engineer, I'm picky. I'm not trying to play gotcha with words this is a dialogue. I do believe there is a difference between being a shooter and a gunfighter.
I'm good with that- yer seeking discussion, discourse, hopefully even consensus. I am fully down wit dat.
I'd rather be the best gunfighter than the best shooter in a fight. Bullets are not restricted to an outgoing ballistic path. For self-defense I believe the mindset should be that if you choose to carry a gun and defend yourself and the worst day of your life happens then you should train to be a gunfighter.
So I would ask you, what's the difference between a gun fighter and a shooter? What differentiates between someone being the best gun-fighter when he is not the best shooter, a what makes the best shooter not the best gun-fighter?
A related question might be, "What do each of mean when we say shooter?" This matters quite a bit. A bullseye champion is a shooter, so is a Camp Perry long range champion. Neither are a USPSA(IPSC) or IDPA dynamic pistol champion. And the dynamic pistol champion is not the shooter the bullseye or long range rifle is.
The thread was on USPSA/IPSC style shooting- one in which a pistol shooter is challenged to earn as many points as possible with full power handguns, a sport that seeks to balance speed, accuracy and power. It's also one the rewards creative, "gaming" (also known as legal cheating). These are gun fighting skills.
What Tyler Durden was asking in his post- the one I answer for those who would not answer- was what is a tactic. A tactic is an expedient for achieving a goal. The goal in this discussion should be to win a gun fight, survive a deadly assault, end attack against one's life. OK, so what expedients allow us to win, survive, end?
-Shooting the bastard first? Yep that gets it done, if it's accurate.
-Make the shot accurate? Yep, if the round has enough umpf to get in there and damage important stuff and make him dead or wish he was dead.
-With a powerful enough cartridge. Yep, just said that.
Viola! Speed, Power, Accuracy.
One certain way to win, survive, end is to be the best shooter- the alternative to not shooting the other guy first is being the guy getting shot. That is a crappy way to try and win and survive a gun fight- though it might end it.
-We might not want to get shot? Yep, so USPSA and IDPA encourage the shooter to learn to shoot while moving. In fact getting off the X mantra is replicated time and time again, with start positions here when we will be shooting at someone from over there.
-We might have to shoot a moving target? Yep, so dynamic shooting sports have those as well.
-Will we get to choose our shooting positions (create the environment)? Nope- so you encounter varied stages with targets only visible from certain locations. You practice dealing with the environment.
-Should we be as certain with our gun, the drawing of the same, reloading, and performance of immediate actions as we can? Yep- that's another expedient. Do you get that in USPSA either in match practice or practice for the match. Yes, you do.
-Stress inoculation. All tests of shooting skill ONLY have the stress of the timer and witnesses and score. Some have a self imposed expectation of performance. Fewer have the stress of the risk of not winning it all; not taking the home a trophy or a prize. For a very few- there is the risk of loosing sponsorship. But it's as much if not more than what you get at most shooting schools. For more stress inoculation, one seeks out different games such as paint-ball, air-soft. Even at a school it's still a game- until someone dies is an artificial replication; a game.
For the above reasons I submit for your consideration that it's hard to believe the "best" USPSA shooters will be damn fine gun-fighters. They practice the tactics which help win, survive and end.
Is it perfect? Nope. Never said it was.
The instructors that train me teach that shooting is not gunfighting and make a point to prepare a mindset of "Winning the fight" by training. It's not just a cheesy slogan and when I reflected on the reality of being in a fight and not just shooting (as in cans, steel or paper)...clearly the slogan is not cheesy. If one finds themselves in a self-defense situation they cannot avoid and the BG has a gun they are not shooting....they are gunfighting. Shooting competitions do help to prepare us for this. I take fighting for granted because in my adult life I have always accepted that doctrine of fighting having had a 38 shoved in my unarmed face at age 14 with nowhere to run and having been put in other unfortunate situations of having knives pulled on me when young...I've no doubt when I am in a fight and will act accordingly.
In this any instructor would not be wrong. But competition is driven by the desire to win. To win you best, you dominate. In USPSA you dominate the competition with those expedients mentioned above and those expedients win gunfights- they make gunfighters.
Does it lack that in your face aggression with the real tenor or death and violence? Nope. Can anything but the real thing? Nope. Only those air-soft and paintball games up it more. Other than that, box, wrestle, martial arts, would help. One can't expect the MMA guy to win the gun fight without any shooting practice. And the safe beat is always on the person practiced with the weapon in the fight. The shooter only has to get over the pulling of the trigger and killing. The MMA guy would have to figure out how the tool works, and it really isn't that easy of a tool to employ well (or well enough). Hell, the average hit rate for trained LEOs lands between 25% and 34%.
OK...let's think about this a bit. Though I don't participate regularly, I like IDPA and I know and like the USPSA guys. I have respect for both disciplines/sports and the good things they bring to the table. I just don't get the feeling I am in a fight when shooting IDPA and the closest to USPSA I've shot was Phil Strader's Pro-Am when it was in Tulsa. How can we change the "stress innoculation" in competition to reflect better being in a gunfight? I am in no way be suggesting being downrange of actual bullets or standing beside or in front of someone who is shooting.
I know we have paper targets with bad guys holding guns imprinted on them...but I ain't scared of a paper bad guy.... I pretty much just shoot at them because they are holding a gun in the scenario....so in my mind I am shooting and not fighting. Maybe competing is the best that can be done to simulate a fight but I don't think so. I think this is a legitimate question, "How do you better imitate a gunfighting competition and less of a shooting competition?" I have no idea right now....and I have no idea to this day how that guy got those big old 20mm cannon bullets in the cylinder of that itty bitty 38 snubby he was pointing at my face, but believe me when I say he did.
You have identified a critical expedient. And one that we might not be able to training. We can't ever credible enter the real risk of death to our training routine. So if we can't, why not worry about what we can train.
I simply harken you back to the Marine LTC, and combat veteran who instinctively knew that massive shooting skill is a fight winner.
Why would SF and (top) SWAT train so hard to be better shooters if it weren't actually a critical expedient to the goal? It is. They are skilled at the speed, accuracy, gun handling components at the high A class to Master class level. No slouches at all.
BTW, some closed minded naysayers should research Pat McNamara and the USPSA club run for Delta at Ft. Bragg, and visit this link : http://www.facebook.com/pages/37-PSR-GUN-CLUB/128118027254276
See if they can figure out what's going on there and why is USPSA style shooting is such a detriment to winning, surviving, ending.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss further.
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Thanks for jumping in Tim. I got sucked into this reading backwards, but couldn't devote enough energy to it to really see where things went wrong. Frankly I'm impressed by the energy expended. Looks like Tom may have met up with a kindred spirit in their dogged relentlessness.
Tom and Steve are both informed, although perhaps in different ways. I was glad that you reminded everyone that this is a friendly place. Let's leave that on the table for a few minutes. Insulting conversation is unbecoming.
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I've been reading this entire thread to determine what and where the conflict is coming from.
I think the conflict comes simply from browbeating the point that anyone else's OPINION is wrong because it doesn't jive with theirs.
There are many posts on this forum, and the majority fall into one of a few categories: posting of info, asking for help, or stating an OPINION. WE all know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.
The OP was a stated opinion by someone who made an observation. Others chimed in with their own opinion on the subject.
Mr. Cline joined in with his opinion (regardless of the validity of the points, still an opinion) and everything was kosher, and made a lot of sense......... until the last sentence of his first post where he made it both personal and assuming toward the OP's writer. Tom simply called him on it for his poor choice of words and tone and he took exception to it and it escalated from there.
Bottom line: It doesn't matter whose opinion is right or wrong....because guess what? OPINIONS can be a little bit of both from any perspective. But to wholesale state that someone else is wrong and only your opinion can possibly be right seems somewhat hypocritical to me.
ALL OPINIONS are welcome here, as long as they are meant well. If I think it is cold outside and someone else thinks it is hot, neither should have to post an encyclopedia on meteorology to back it up....it is just what it is: a stated opinion and folks can either take it or leave it.
I kinda wish the mods would lock the thread....or just delete it altogether.
**Editor's note: This is all just an opinion and should be taken as such. It is not meant as a personal assault on anyone's character, living or dead. No animals were harmed in the writing of this opinion. That is all.
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Well, time to make an entry here as an inexperienced observer.
First I'll give a shot at what is "dangerous" about that type of competition...and it does involve the timer.
The emphasis is to get to the end of the stage as quick as possible. That is not going to be the best tactic in all firefights. Moving back or away from the sight line to the target will often be used in a firefight.
There are other things that the "game" cannot provide..and that is a thinking and reacting opponent. .. not that this is a "danger", just that it is not a factor in the competition.
The only place I have seen both of those included is in Force-on-Force training. Granted, you don't have the pressure of a life or death situation, but you have just as much as trying to beat the clock. Downside is you are not using a carry weapon...and that is good...to keep it from being a life or death situation.
All the gun handling and trigger skills can be learned from more stationary training.
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Understood the incorrect belief that participating in shooting sports (games) was dangerous from the beginning, posted reasons for why it was wrong. Haven't seen a post from you yet as to how the logic is wrong or the points invalid. Still waiting.
It ingrains bad habits, such as the aggressive advance . Very few of us on here including most of the cops would be justified in most circumstances in staging a one person "charge of the Light Brigade".
The focus is supposed to be "self defense, which requires eliminating the threat, not storming Iwo Jima.
Don't care much about your opinion of me. It's not a valid point either.
24k posts doesn't prove anything except a lot of time on your hands.
Pony up reasons. An argument. A fact. Pick at my reasons, by logic, my argument.
Your opinion is not the issue, it is your rude arrogant attitude that is the issue. I really don't give a crap either way on the subject of the thread.
For you and you only- it's not a new guy attitude. It's a you've given me no reason to respect you attitude, plenty or reasons to disrespect you attitude.
From your first post, before I ever saw this thread had been Resurrected
"I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce. Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time."
When I rather gently pointed out that that comment did not sound to good
"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post."
The reply I received was insulting arrogant attitude
"Don't presume I didn't read the entire thread, I did. I happen to disagree that games are poor training for real world encounters and posted my arguments for my position.
Possibly this the, "welcome to our forums, get in line with our thinking, quick," response. Please understand I will follow forum rules, but I will not submit to the forum culture for submitting to forum culture's sake. Nor does a "big name" impress me. An invalid argument is an invalid argument.
I don't respect an resume as much as I respect the valid point.
I won't pander, but I won't be disrespectful and I don't need 800 posts to make a valid point.
Thanks."
You have shown very little respect for any one so far in this thread.
As I have pointed out before, you are the new guy here, you fit in with us, not the other way around.
We do not insult people in the non political threads, and we do not tell them to, in your words, "Shut the hell up" even there.
We're doing fine in the other thread on the Summer Meltdown thread. Try the same technique here.
Because any arrogance you show with your comments there is not directed at our fellow forum members.
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Three things:
1. Tom - Take a breath and remember when you got overheated a while back. It didn't end well, but you've done well ever since after realizing what you did;
2. This is a topic that just needs to go away, because every time someone revives it we turn into a bunch of old roosters strutting and fighting;
3. Note for the future - On every forum I've ever visited the topic of training and competitive shooting crossing paths turns everyone into jackasses. Why can't we just accept that trigger time is trigger time, and any trigger time is not only better than none but it is down right fun?
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Three things:
1. Tom - Take a breath and remember when you got overheated a while back. It didn't end well, but you've done well ever since after realizing what you did;
2. This is a topic that just needs to go away, because every time someone revives it we turn into a bunch of old roosters strutting and fighting;
3. Note for the future - On every forum I've ever visited the topic of training and competitive shooting crossing paths turns everyone into jackasses. Why can't we just accept that trigger time is trigger time, and any trigger time is not only better than none but it is down right fun?
The issue here is a matter of common courtesy, and respect for others on the forum.
I'm must say that it saddens me that I, the most sarcastic SOB on here , seem to be the only one willing to comment on something I see as wrong.
To many of the rest of you are sounding like Rodney King, "Cain't we all just git along*".
As to the original post in the thread, Games aren't training, and training should not be a game.
Even if there are some shared skill sets , the mindset is different.
* No we can't. If we could there would no need for Self defense related forums.
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Understood the incorrect belief that participating in shooting sports (games) was dangerous from the beginning, posted reasons for why it was wrong. Haven't seen a post from you yet as to how the logic is wrong or the points invalid. Still waiting.
It ingrains bad habits, such as the aggressive advance . Very few of us on here including most of the cops would be justified in most circumstances in staging a one person "charge of the Light Brigade".
The focus is supposed to be "self defense, which requires eliminating the threat, not storming Iwo Jima.
That's it? That's all?
I've posted almost dozens of benefits from shooting USPSA and your ONE post is aggressive advance?
I counter your argument with a fact- on this very day I shot an 8 stage match (not real well, but I shot it) and I moved
LEFT
RIGHT
BACK
FORWARD
"Charge of the light Brigade," I'm sorry you don't like the high round count- but it's FUN!
FUN, FUN, FUN.
As my father-in-law, a retired USA Col, Infantry, and one time commander of an AMU observed- boys will work hours to move a old washer to the top of the hill to push it down. The lesson? People work harder to get good at a game than just about all else. As Ltc. Grossman said, "Piss on golf." A warrior's recreation should reinforce his combat skills. He specifically endorsed shooting games.
So what you see as a detriment certain well respected persons see as a decided benefit.
Oh, it's also called trigger time.
300 rounds of trigger time (with REF re-shoots)
FUN, FUN, FUN combined with lots of benefit.
I observe that you lack a great deal of understanding of USPSA style shooting. Understanding that would come if you actually shoot some USPSA style shooting. I deduce then that you speak quite a bit about something you have neither knowledge or experience. Does that seem prudent to you?
What else you got?
Don't care much about your opinion of me. It's not a valid point either.
24k posts doesn't prove anything except a lot of time on your hands.
Pony up reasons. An argument. A fact. Pick at my reasons, by logic, my argument.
Your opinion is not the issue, it is your rude arrogant attitude that is the issue. I really don't give a crap either way on the subject of the thread.
For you and you only- it's not a new guy attitude. It's a you've given me no reason to respect you attitude, plenty or reasons to disrespect you attitude.
From your first post, before I ever saw this thread had been Resurrected
"I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce. Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time."
I still do.
But, if this get's yer panties in a twist all I can say is it's time to nut up.
I've seen it a couple dozen times- the bad-ass ninja shows to match. Stands aloof and arrogant. Wearing his tactical clothing. Sniffing at the "gamers," the "hot shots" as BloodFarts called them (that's a snarky mildly insulting term in the way he used it... how come you didn't attempt to dress him down for his lack of civility... would it be because you happen to agree with him?
That might just fit the pattern I've observed. Snarky incivility you ignore if you agree with the poster, like DeepWater.
Sorry, back on the point- then the timer goes off and not only does he not shoot nearly as fast (speed is a tactic that wins gun fights) he doesn't shoot as accurate (accuracy wins gun fights too) and after his first stage the world is spinning and crashing in on him. He ain't the bad-ass with a gun he thought he was.
When I rather gently pointed out that that comment did not sound to good
"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post."
The reply I received was insulting arrogant attitude
"Don't presume I didn't read the entire thread, I did. I happen to disagree that games are poor training for real world encounters and posted my arguments for my position.
Possibly this the, "welcome to our forums, get in line with our thinking, quick," response. Please understand I will follow forum rules, but I will not submit to the forum culture for submitting to forum culture's sake. Nor does a "big name" impress me. An invalid argument is an invalid argument.
I don't respect an resume as much as I respect the valid point.
I won't pander, but I won't be disrespectful and I don't need 800 posts to make a valid point.
Thanks."
You have shown very little respect for any one so far in this thread.
Actually I've been quite civil with many posters, just not YOU. Boo hoo.
As I have pointed out before, you are the new guy here, you fit in with us, not the other way around.
We do not insult people in the non political threads, and we do not tell them to, in your words, "Shut the hell up" even there.
NO I DON'T HAVE TO FIT IN HERE.
I ABIDE BY THE FORUM TOS AND DISAGREE AS MUCH AS I WANT. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHALLENGE ANYONE'S POST. I DON"T HAVE TO KISS ASS WHEN I DO.
YOU ARE NOT THE ARBITER OF WHO IS WORTHY TO POST HERE. WHAT POSTS ARE WORTHY. IT'S CLEAR WHY YOU ARE NOT A MODERATOR.
Besides, the STHU was a conditioned statement. I didn't say it, I recommended it if certain conditions couldn't be meet- reading comprehension, ahem.
We're doing fine in the other thread on the Summer Meltdown thread. Try the same technique here.
Because any arrogance you show with your comments there is not directed at our fellow forum members.
I would say in the other thread the real difference is you're not trying to bully me with the, "I'm the guy with the most posts around here so you better listen to me," 'tude.
Try that here.
BTW, I'm getting fan mail for standing up to you. Me thinks that speaks volumes. Possibly you should ruminate on that.
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Well, time to make an entry here as an inexperienced observer.
First I'll give a shot at what is "dangerous" about that type of competition...and it does involve the timer.
The emphasis is to get to the end of the stage as quick as possible. That is not going to be the best tactic in all firefights. Moving back or away from the sight line to the target will often be used in a firefight.
You've correctly identified that the sport emphasizes getting to the end of the stage as soon as possible.
But, possibly some exploration of whether that is dangerous is in order.
First, why is practicing speed dangerous? When I read statutes I see terms such as, "immediate." If the threat of death or great bodily harm weren't immediate we wouldn't be justified in shooting. Ergo, when we are justified in shooting, we are justified in shooting right now. Speed is critical.
You correctly identified that some of the speed measured is the speed to the end of the course. While speedy movement may not be the best course of action it is not always the wrong course of action.
It is an action the shooter chooses, just like the shooter chooses sometimes to shoot on the move slowly, or at a medium pace, or as quickly as he can- dependent on the circumstances he is confronting.
In some circumstances a person might need to aggressively move someplace- to where a loved one is in danger.
Yet, I have observed previously, I retain the ability to slow down, if one lacks the ability to speed up, it's not there when needed.
There are other things that the "game" cannot provide..and that is a thinking and reacting opponent. .. not that this is a "danger", just that it is not a factor in the competition.
Indeed. That factor is lacking in most training. Since is lacking in most training, it could not reasonably be counted as a danger, as you observe above. And as you observe to follow:
The only place I have seen both of those included is in Force-on-Force training. Granted, you don't have the pressure of a life or death situation, but you have just as much as trying to beat the clock. Downside is you are not using a carry weapon...and that is good...to keep it from being a life or death situation.
I would be hesitant to disagree that force-on-force is one of the best training one could engage. But, it too, has limitations and dangers if don't incorrectly. Would you agree?
All the gun handling and trigger skills can be learned from more stationary training.
To some degree to I agree. But, to a greater degree, and gently, sir, I disagree. These skills are not truly learned until they are practiced under match pressure. In dynamic environs.
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This is getting really boring and tedious guys.
On the plus side, I think we found someone who's even more long-winded than FQ. ;D
That was a joke and was not intended to hurt anyone's feelings or provoke a 3 page soliloquy on why I'm mean or wrong. It's just a joke.
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"I know FQ and YOU, sir, are NO FQ"!
Ah BAC you got me going! Just getting in the spirit of things.
It's like a car wreck...you don't want to look but there's a morbid facination...
And some of you guys are sending fan mail over all this pissing and moaning? I guess Marshall should set up a separate thread so those who wish to can compete. But just remember...it really will do NOTHING for your true pissing and moaning skills. In a crunch, you'll have to rely on your instincts.
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I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.
Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....
DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.
We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.
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I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.
Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....
DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.
We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.
I'm sorry, TW, but I had to read that post several times because I thought you were referring to someone else on this forum. But I hope you are even handed with that admonition with all who are on this forum - newbies to oldies.
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George,
Don't be alarmed. We are here in a varied yet kindred spirit. Opinions are opinions and facts are facts. When someone is arrogant it gets a reaction.
Feel free to PM me and I would be happy to go into detail as to how this forum has enlightened me and how the members here care for each other and the country in which they live.
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I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.
Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....
DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.
We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.
TW George's concerns got me sidetracked, but well hell. I don't post all that much but it really gets under my skin when someone is obnoxious and condescending, AND it turns out he's selling his own brand of crap on the internet.
Thanks for saying what I wanted to but was trying to be too clever to clearly state.
He has no idea what members of this forum have done for each other.
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I'm sorry, TW, but I had to read that post several times because I thought you were referring to someone else on this forum. But I hope you are even handed with that admonition with all who are on this forum - newbies to oldies.
Not that anyone is owed an explanation or background, but a while back a long-time forum member (oldie?), and high mileage contributor, basically got mad and left the forum because the rest of the "forum regulars" would not take his 'side' in a heated exchange with/over a "newbie".......
This site has always been self-leveling........eventually.
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Not that anyone is owed an explanation or background, but a while back a long-time forum member (oldie?), and high mileage contributor, basically got mad and left the forum because the rest of the "forum regulars" would not take his 'side' in a heated exchange with/over a "newbie".......
This site has always been self-leveling........eventually.
To be completely accurate they both left because so many of us refused to worship at the alter of St. Ron Paul, and said we were really sick of hearing about him.
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To be completely accurate they both left because so many of us refused to worship at the alter of St. Ron Paul, and said we were really sick of hearing about him.
I was referring to someone else (an even longer member) but the same applies here also. ;D
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"My Schwartz is bigger than yours?"
NOW, we're getting serious! LOL! This is truly the thread that won't die, and I'm sorry to be so long in checking in.
I assume most of you guys know my credentials...I was at the first meeting to create USPSA and draft the bylaws; I worked in the creation of the National Range Officer Institute and was in the first "crash test dummy" class for hammering out what we would teach; I founded FRONT SIGHT Magazine, was its first editor and worked for years promoting USPSA. My IDPA membership number is A00009; I co-founded one of the first big IDPA clubs...I also co-taught the first safety officer class for that sport. More recently, I am one of the founders of the Ruger Rimfire Challenge, am an active cowboy action shooter (just chalked up my highest finish in a major national match last weekend) and am certified RO1 and RO2 in cowboy. Like Steven Cline, I fire tens of thousands of rounds in competition every year.
And Tyler D., I've been to most of those high-speed low-drag shooting academies you mentioned in your EXCELLENT post! Done force-on-force with many of the top guys around; worked as a "guest terrorist" with the Rangers at Ft. Benning "killing" some of the top SWAT cops in the country...and I've been privileged to work directly with people like Walt Rauch, Jim Cirillo, Command Master Chief (ret) Denny Chalker, the top competitors in the world, blah blah.
A few years back I spent some time with an Israeli spook and trainer was was an active, an excellent, IPSC shooter. I asked him that, given his profession involved shooting people who were shooting at him, if any of his competition licks had gotten him in trouble. "Michael Michael Michael!" he chided. "The very first thing we all must do as adults is separate reality from fantasy. Having down that, we live in reality."
I strongly promote competition of any kind, because I believe it:
1) Teaches and internalizes high-level gun-handling skills
2) Teaches the shooter (to cop a concept from Brian Enos) to "see what he has to see" to make the shot
3) Teaches and internalizes safety
4) Provides excellent stress inoculation
5) Teaches basic skills (trigger, verify with sights, movement, "broken" position shooting, etc.)
6) Most important, teaches focus!
In self-defense I teach that there are two critical paths:
1) Shoot/no-shoot
2) Deliver the shot
Obviously, in a chaos situation there's more going on than that. But those 2 critical paths are central. If you can't work those critical paths, you will fail, and the consequences to yourself will not be hunky-dory.
Shoot/no-shoot is built on our strategic thinking, the strategies, the knowledge base, we put in place long before we walk into the fan. Tactics are the tools we use to help us deliver the shot. I believe (stealing this time from Bruce Lee) that complexity is a disease and "style" of any kind is an impediment to accomplishing what we need to accomplish in a self-defense situation.
I also do understand at a cellular level that if my focus fails, regardless of whether it is in a match, in a self-defense situation, or doing pretty much anything in life, I will not be able to succeed at what I'm attempting to do. In a self-defense situation, that may cost me or mine our lives.
Training, as separate from competition (as it always is), helps us understand what's necessary to deliver the shot in any situation. Force-on-force teaches us that a live opponent will ALWAYS act in a way that totally screws what we may have been planning. Force-on-force teaches us, therefore, to, as my Israeli friend said so eloquently, be in the real world.
So Mr. Cline, welcome! And be assured that I think everyone on this forum are as crazy as outhouse rats! But that's not necessarily a bad thing...
Michael B
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Mikey, the last thing we miscreants need around here is the voice of reason! ;D
Nice post though! ;)
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It's good to have you chime in Mr. B! I'd say your credentials are at least as good as the best that is out there in the formerly free world.
And as the thread winds down until another day......let us be mindful that the snipers are wondering what all this fuss is about concerning the lowly handgun....as if it were the supreme element of combat in their world.
I'm just sayin'.....no amount of handgun implemented training to scan my area is going to protect me from those guys if they don't want to be seen.
Somebody puhlease lock this thread.
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It's good to have you chime in Mr. B! I'd say your credentials are at least as good as the best that is out there in the formerly free world.
And as the thread winds down until another day......let us be mindful that the snipers are wondering what all this fuss is about concerning the lowly handgun....as if it were the supreme element of combat in their world.
I'm just sayin'.....no amount of handgun implemented training to scan my area is going to protect me from those guys if they don't want to be seen.
Somebody puhlease lock this thread.
True enough, but for the vast majority, (not even going to guess at the numbers,) the hand gun is what will be available when something needs to get shot.
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"My Schwartz is bigger than yours?"
NOW, we're getting serious! LOL! This is truly the thread that won't die, and I'm sorry to be so long in checking in.
I assume most of you guys know my credentials...I was at the first meeting to create USPSA and draft the bylaws; I worked in the creation of the National Range Officer Institute and was in the first "crash test dummy" class for hammering out what we would teach; I founded FRONT SIGHT Magazine, was its first editor and worked for years promoting USPSA. My IDPA membership number is A00009; I co-founded one of the first big IDPA clubs...I also co-taught the first safety officer class for that sport. More recently, I am one of the founders of the Ruger Rimfire Challenge, am an active cowboy action shooter (just chalked up my highest finish in a major national match last weekend) and am certified RO1 and RO2 in cowboy. Like Steven Cline, I fire tens of thousands of rounds in competition every year.
And Tyler D., I've been to most of those high-speed low-drag shooting academies you mentioned in your EXCELLENT post! Done force-on-force with many of the top guys around; worked as a "guest terrorist" with the Rangers at Ft. Benning "killing" some of the top SWAT cops in the country...and I've been privileged to work directly with people like Walt Rauch, Jim Cirillo, Command Master Chief (ret) Denny Chalker, the top competitors in the world, blah blah.
A few years back I spent some time with an Israeli spook and trainer was was an active, an excellent, IPSC shooter. I asked him that, given his profession involved shooting people who were shooting at him, if any of his competition licks had gotten him in trouble. "Michael Michael Michael!" he chided. "The very first thing we all must do as adults is separate reality from fantasy. Having down that, we live in reality."
I strongly promote competition of any kind, because I believe it:
1) Teaches and internalizes high-level gun-handling skills
2) Teaches the shooter (to cop a concept from Brian Enos) to "see what he has to see" to make the shot
3) Teaches and internalizes safety
4) Provides excellent stress inoculation
5) Teaches basic skills (trigger, verify with sights, movement, "broken" position shooting, etc.)
6) Most important, teaches focus!
In self-defense I teach that there are two critical paths:
1) Shoot/no-shoot
2) Deliver the shot
Obviously, in a chaos situation there's more going on than that. But those 2 critical paths are central. If you can't work those critical paths, you will fail, and the consequences to yourself will not be hunky-dory.
Shoot/no-shoot is built on our strategic thinking, the strategies, the knowledge base, we put in place long before we walk into the fan. Tactics are the tools we use to help us deliver the shot. I believe (stealing this time from Bruce Lee) that complexity is a disease and "style" of any kind is an impediment to accomplishing what we need to accomplish in a self-defense situation.
I also do understand at a cellular level that if my focus fails, regardless of whether it is in a match, in a self-defense situation, or doing pretty much anything in life, I will not be able to succeed at what I'm attempting to do. In a self-defense situation, that may cost me or mine our lives.
Training, as separate from competition (as it always is), helps us understand what's necessary to deliver the shot in any situation. Force-on-force teaches us that a live opponent will ALWAYS act in a way that totally screws what we may have been planning. Force-on-force teaches us, therefore, to, as my Israeli friend said so eloquently, be in the real world.
So Mr. Cline, welcome! And be assured that I think everyone on this forum are as crazy as outhouse rats! But that's not necessarily a bad thing...
Michael B
Thanks, Mike. I kinda moved on but a reasoned response from a moderator gives me hope.
Would you mind sending a PM letting me know a bit where "the line" is? There was some snivelling and misty eyes because I weren't respecting the established crowd. I held back some of my stronger responses for fear of actually running afoul of the TOS as opposed to just stepping on toes.
Much appreciated in advance.
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I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.
Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....
DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.
We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.
Fine and dandy. I'm not an ass-kisser.
How about addressing some of that logic and sound reasoning?
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Michael Bane wrote:
...And Tyler D., I've been to most of those high-speed low-drag shooting academies you mentioned in your EXCELLENT post! ....
Thank you! I am flattered!
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Here's an anecdotal piece of evidence giving some support for competition shooting from my local paper on a CCW holder killing an armed robber:
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-08-28/story/customer-kills-gunman-during-jacksonville-robbery-attempt (http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-08-28/story/customer-kills-gunman-during-jacksonville-robbery-attempt)
Customer kills gunman during Jacksonville robbery attempt
Customer's wife: 'I left him a little grocery list this morning.'
Posted: August 28, 2012 - 12:39am | Updated: August 28, 2012 - 5:00pm
By Clifford Davis
"A 57-year-old Jacksonville grandfather stopped off on his way home from work Monday night to fill a grocery list his wife left for him that morning.
But after entering the Dollar General at 1921 Dunn Ave., he was thrust into an armed robbery that ended with him firing his weapon and one of the two robbers lying dead on the floor.
Two unidentified men entered the store about 9:20 p.m., both with handguns, said Lt. Rob Schoonover of the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office.
“One of them had the clerk and one of them was at the front cash register,” Schoonover said.
The manager then alerted the customer to the situation.
“The customer, who had a concealed firearms permit and a firearm, fired at the suspect, striking him apparently two times, killing him,” Schoonover said.
The other robber, wearing a blue bandana and gloves, ran out the front and fled eastbound on Dunn Avenue in a small sport-utility vehicle.
Soon after the incident, police allowed the customer to call and reassure his family.
“We just get a phone call saying, ‘I’m OK, but something happened,’” said the man’s son. “It just sucks that we have to work late and have to carry a gun.”
The man, who the Times-Union is not identifying because the other robber has not been caught, knew well how to use his gun, according to his family.
“He’s always been a marksman,” his wife said. “He shoots in competitions, but this is the first time he’s ever killed anyone and I don’t know how he’ll handle that.”
The store was equipped with video surveillance and the man was being taken in for questioning, but he’s not being charged, Schoonover said.
“The citizen did not get shot, none of the employees were hurt, this worked out good tonight,” Schoonover said.
Times-Union writer Dana Treen contributed to this report.
clifford.davis@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4207"
Who knows what the competition was - perhaps it was USPSA, IDPA, Bullseye, or even Paintball. I know this alone doesn't change anyone's opinion either way, but at least we have one documented piece of evidence of a competitor who used his firearm in self defense, and the defense of others, and did not follow the predicted patterns critics of competition shooting postulate he would do.
Just something to mull over....