The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: alfsauve on November 12, 2014, 07:23:20 AM
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(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/67/64/bb/6764bba7d1ea6b14303336d93ea8fe9d.jpg)
NO THAT's not mine, but now that I have your attention.
Okay, I realize everybody in the world has already done this. There are dozens, hundreds even, of videos and blogs and forums about doing this. But this one is mine.
It's a $100 rifle. Ammo is dirt cheap. Why not make it into something a little be more handy. WITHOUT spending a bunch of money. Simple idea. Cut the barrel down to 18", chop all that excess wood off the fore end of the stock. That's all. And you know with a forward positioned scope, voila, it becomes a scout rifle. limited magazine capacity, but still.
So here's what I've done so far. Using the horizontal band saw at work, I chopped the barrel off. Then I cut off the fore end of the stock and started shaping it some.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-mR5dwbG/0/X2/IMG_0369-X2.jpg)
It already feels better. Balances nicely.
OF COURSE, the first thing I did wrong was loose the trigger pin. Easy enough to replace, seems everybody does this. Duh, I'm a member of the club. I really wish there were published dimensions not just for the pin for but for all replacement parts. That way you could find a replacement even if it wasn't originally intended for that gun. As I measured it the pin should be 4mm by 18mm. Looking in my miscellaneous parts bin I found piece of stock just the right size. Beats me what this part was originally for, but I'm cutting it off and making my own replacement.
Okay on to crowning the barrel and shaping the stock. I probably won't even refinish it. Just make it functional. The one question is finding an easy to install (and cheap) front sight. I'll have to look through Brownells for something suitable.
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First, have you considered the distortion from machining the muzzle ?
Second, why not dove tail the barrel and reinstall the original sight ?
You will need to mount it differently to compensate for the shorter sight radius.
Third, With Obama's ban on Russian imports how long will 7.62X 54 BE cheap ?
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I think the key to working on the barrel is to not let it get too hot while cutting or grinding. While cutting I poured a continuous stream of oil over the blade and kept it pretty cool. Don't think I distorted it too much or changed the temper a lot. I'll find some ball shaped grinding bits and slowly and lightly create a crown. Probably hand file the outside edge, then a little cold blue. Not creating a tack driver.
The original sight is slightly inlaid but mainly it's soldered in place. I wouldn't call it "dovetail" as might apply to say a Glock rear sight. I'm going to have to look at my options here. I don't want to put any money into this, so paying a machinist is out of the question. If there's an inexpensive clamp-around the barrel sight, then that might do. I have a Millet 1x red dot and maybe that's a possibility. I knew sights were the one area where I might run into a problem. I might spring for a fiber optic front if I can find a cheap way to mount it. There's a lot of adjustment in the rear sight.
Obama will only be in office about 2 years, 2 months and 9 days, but who's counting. The Russians have tons and tons of this ammo. Plus I'm willing to bet a lot of this ammo isn't "in" Russia, but in many of the former satellite countries, which might not be subject to the Russian import ban. In fact, I bet Ukraine might even have a ton or two of it. Yeah, I think it'll be available for some time to come.
Then this is a "junker" gun. A throw-in-the-back-of-the-pickup-with-16-rounds-of ammo-just-in-case gun.
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I like the short barrel but the fore end looks a little too short. It will be interesting to see the finished rifle.
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I was thinking about material being pushed into the barrel when you crowned it due strictly to pressure rather than heat.
My thinking was that if you do it with a counter sink you might have problems, but if on a lathe and make your cuts from the inside out instead of pushing any distortion into the barrel you would be pulling it outward where it effects nothing.
Ahh, zero investment, Didn't some one on here post about slotting the barrel and making their own front sight from metal sheet ?
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Ah, good thought, Tom, but what I'm going to do is us ball shaped grinding stones for Michael Bane's infamous Dremel tool, to do the recess (crown). Not high tech, not very deep, just a little crown. I squared off the face this morning and it's looking great.
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If you have access to a lathe it would be MUCH better. Do it by hand is alost certain to be imperfect in the most important section of the barre for accuracy.
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After getting close to the finish point, do a final smoothing to remove micro-burrs by using valve grinding compound on a thick piece of cotton....... drape over the crown....... chuck a brass carriage bolt in a variable speed drill and slowly work the crown.
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Or you could have just traded your MN rifle for a type 53 which comes with a 20 inch barrel and as a bonus has a folding stabby thing.
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Or you could have just traded your MN rifle for a type 53 which comes with a 20 inch barrel and as a bonus has a folding stabby thing.
Didn't Haz, Jr. harvest a porker with a stabby thing?
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Didn't Haz, Jr. harvest a porker with a stabby thing?
Several. ;) ;D
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If you want to mount a scope, there is an 11mm rail underneath the rear sight. The sight is soldered on, so I had to heat it with a torch - but it came off once the solder melted. All you need then is an 11mm to picatinny rail adapter. See http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Profile-Airgun-Picatinny-Adaptor/dp/B001CJ67E6/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1416019475&sr=1-1&keywords=UTG+Low+Profile+.22%2FAirgun+to+Picatinny%2FWeaver+Rail+Adaptor (http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Profile-Airgun-Picatinny-Adaptor/dp/B001CJ67E6/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1416019475&sr=1-1&keywords=UTG+Low+Profile+.22%2FAirgun+to+Picatinny%2FWeaver+Rail+Adaptor)
This one has a screw that goes downward from the upper rail. I dimpled the front sight base so the base can't move fore and aft. Of course I locktighted every screw too. Less than $13.00 for a great, low profile scout mount.
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PegLeg: Thanks, I had already picked up some carriage bolts and compound. Saw that trick a while back.
Haz, Timothy: I can't find my pokey thing. It's around here somewhere.
Vince: Thanks for the tip. I've ordered a universal FO front sight, $15, which if my calculations are correct, will be close enough. I might look more carefully at that rear sight though. I might even have some 11mm rings around. I still have odd stuff I bought at a defunct gun store auction 20 years ago. Among which were some uncommon sized rings.
I'm in the process of filling the holes and sanding the stock. May start on the crown today. It doesn't have to be much, just enough to remove the burrs from cutting and to give it some minimal protection.
This isn't going to be a Winslow grade stock or a benchrest shooter. Just taking a really cheap rifle and making it into a more handy, really cheap rifle. One that I could loose, lend or leave behind and not sweat about it.
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Sounds like a fun project. I'm scheming to see if I can call a new pistol a Christmas present. Not sure how that's going to go.
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Okay. The crown is done and blued. I went to one of the old-timey hardware stores, downtown Marietta, today and low and behold they had spherical grinding stones. I got one medium grit and one medium-fine. A couple of minutes with each then polished with the bolt heads and compound. Let's see, that was $4 of the stones, $5 for the compound and $3 for the carriage bolts.
Here's what it looks like. Haven't done a real good "cleaning" of the bore at this point.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-ptHX7M3/0/XL/IMG_0370-XL.jpg)
And the stock is stripped, holes filed and a coat of sanding sealer applied. Thought you'd like to see the progress.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-KDfgfF4/0/XL/IMG_0373-XL.jpg)
I plugged the cleaning rod hole. Maybe I shouldn't have and instead cut the rod down to new size. Nahh.
Also removed about a half inch from the butt and filled what was left of the butt plate recess. Obviously plugged the sling hole. (Yes, I will put the cross bolt back in before I fire it.) Oh and I opened up the inside of the forearm a little to make sure the barrel is free floating.
More sanding, then a stain and then a sealer. Waiting on the front sight. Fortunately, the one other machine tool I have available is a substantial drill press.
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Looking good, Alf.
Looks OK the way it is, but if you wanted to go a step farther on the barrel tip, you can also take two flat head elevator bolts and glue 1000 and 2000 grit emery cloth to them and smooth the saw tooth marks from the end of the barrel.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_137616-37672-881012_4294710928__?productId=3722632&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=
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I thought long and hard about doing something like this to my Mosin but in the end I decided to keep it stock for the historic aspects. But I must say this I really like the way your project is going alfsauve!
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Just a quick update. Finished the stock. Or as much as I'm going to do on it. Nothing fancy. A little dark stain, then a two coats of Tung Oil. Added a slip-on recoil pad that I already had.
The front sight arrived. REALLY FOLKS. It's a universal front sight. You know it's going to be a DIY project. You gotta be pretty sure the buyer is going to have to drill and tap the hole. Couldn't you at least print the screw size on the package? Is it metric or SAE? Huh? Your web site has wonderful charts and graphs on the calculation of the height of the front sight. But really a simple, "3.5mm" would have done wonders. I have some taps, but gee rather than first find a nut that fits the screw then find the tap that fits the nut, would it have been too much trouble?
So, first I have to find the right tap, then make the drilling jig. It will probably be late this weekend before I get it finished.
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A thread gauge is a handy tool to have in the toolbox.
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Or, you could use a screw of your own choosing, with known thread cut....as long as it fits the hole through the sight.
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Went to a hobby store today. I should have called before hand, but I wanted to go look around. After having perused the aisles I asked where the small screws and taps were. The clerk pointed me over to a display. I have never seen so many, teeny-tiny machine screws. Obviously for very serious model makers. Did you know the size gets so small, they just call them "0" (zero)? And, yeah they had appropriately sized taps, dies, screw drivers, wrenches and nut drivers. Ended up ordering what I wanted from Tower Hobbies. Be a week more.
In the meantime, I took the rifle to the range, along with AR pistol. Everyone there thought it was a neat project, though one fella was upset I had cut down the barrel on a hexagonal receiver. (Hey, barrels can be replaced.) Everyone also warned about the earth shattering, seismic event alarming, and blinding muzzle flash. Wrong. It was pleasant to shoot. Less loud than my 16" .308. And a lot less flash than a some ARs I've seen. Did it standing and was using Winchester soft point ammo.
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Went to a hobby store today. I should have called before hand, but I wanted to go look around. After having perused the aisles I asked where the small screws and taps were. The clerk pointed me over to a display. I have never seen so many, teeny-tiny machine screws. Obviously for very serious model makers. Did you know the size gets so small, they just call them "0" (zero)? And, yeah they had appropriately sized taps, dies, screw drivers, wrenches and nut drivers. Ended up ordering what I wanted from Tower Hobbies. Be a week more.
In the meantime, I took the rifle to the range, along with AR pistol. Everyone there thought it was a neat project, though one fella was upset I had cut down the barrel on a hexagonal receiver. (Hey, barrels can be replaced.) Everyone also warned about the earth shattering, seismic event alarming, and blinding muzzle flash. Wrong. It was pleasant to shoot. Less loud than my 16" .308. And a lot less flash than a some ARs I've seen. Did it standing and was using Winchester soft point ammo.
That is a surprise.
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That is a surprise.
It's objective, viewed from behind the action. Standing along side most any rifle isn't that pleasant. So no in reality it's probably louder and brighter.
Built a jig for the drilling. DON'T LAUGH. Waiting on the tap and drill to come in from Tower Hobby. Then I'll take this to the floor model drill press at work.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-8dSJHVn/0/XL/IMG_0388-XL.jpg)
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Careful with the drill depth...don't wanna blow through and make a temporary gas port. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You also do not want to dimple the inside of the barrel with either the drill or the tap.
If it can happen on a CNCed Thompson Center Black Powder barrel it can definitely happen hand tapping a modern (more or less) barrel.
Since you already ordered your tap if it is not specifically a "bottoming tap" the first thing you want to do is grind off almost all the point of the tap. If you don't you will not get enough depth and you WILL drive a dimple into the bore.
Also, GO SLOW and use LOTS of tapping fluid !!!
How do you plan to get a broken tap out of the hole ?
GO SLOW and use LOTS of tapping fluid !!!
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Thanks for the tips guys. I ordered two taps. Depending on the taper I will grind only some of the first one. I still want it to function as a "starter". The second one I will cut/grind far enough to make a true blind tap. Only plan on going half way through the barrel. I ordered a package of 20 screws of varying lengths. Worse case is I might have to grind one of those down some to get exactly the right depth.
Ah, broken tap. One reason I cut the barrel to 18" is so if I screw up too badly, I can cut it shorter and start over. ;)
Tower Hobby is using slow boat so I may not see my shipment until next Monday. I'm hoping the shippers have gone into double time for the holidays and I'll show up this week.
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On broken taps.
If you are using fluted cutting taps you can drop a couple of small pins into the flutes and grip them with pliers to turn out the broken piece. Make sure you clean out the hole afterwards so the new tap doesn't hit a piece of the old one and break.
If you are using round roll taps, well, you have that extra 1 1/2 inch of barrel.
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for small taps I always recommend solid carbide. that way if you do snap on you can shatter it with a punch.
let's just say that's one of those lessons I've had to learn the hard way over and over and over again ;D
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So it's done, except for adapting the original sling. At work they had sold the floor model drill press and had a cheapie table model. I did the best I could with it, but the hole isn't perfectly centered. The tap, a fluted one, 3mm, was a little shaky getting started. Of course it took me a day to find my tap handle. Once I got it to bite straight in, I'd take a 1/8 of turn forward then back it out a little. Cutting a little at a time and clearing the shavings. When it bottomed out, I ground off the tapered part and continued on in for another couple of mils. Glad I order a variety pack of 3mm screws. One fit perfectly, lengthwise. Then I de-greased the top of the gun and under the sight and used Bondo epoxy. Tightened it all down. Not perfect, but I think it'll be fine out to 100yds. The gun mounts well and provides a good sight picture and cheek weld. I took the vertical adjustment off the rear sight to lower it some. Once I get to the range, I'll be able to tell whether it's needed or not. After the sling, only thing left is to wipe it down, fill the magazine and put it in the safe.
(Sorry the picture is fuzzy. In a hurry this morning and took it hand held.)
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-vR2ZC5J/0/XL/IMG_0565-XL.jpg)
TA DA
An inexpensive (~$125) .30 cal emergency blaster gun that uses cheap ammo. (For another $100 I put away 440 rounds in a sealed container.) Only question is do I put it in the safe or tuck it in the pantry or on top of the bookshelf in the den?
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-gVC7f4z/0/X3/IMG_0561-X3.jpg)
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Looks good, let us know how it shoots .
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Minor Setback
I knew the front sight hole drifted using the cheap drill press, but it's off more than I find acceptable. About 3" at 25yds. And of course I have no way to adjust of windage. DUH!
I'm thinking a clamp-on front sight mount, now. Remember, this is an on the cheap project, so under $20 is the goal. So taking it to a gun smith is out of the question. Two rifles come to mind with barrel band type front sights, a Ruger 10/22 and an M1 Carbine.
My barrel is .665 at the muzzle and from what I can tell a 10/22 standard barrel is .642. It shouldn't be too hard to file down the barrel a tad to make the 10/22 fit. Maybe it's time to resurrect my 10/22 project. I'm looking for a junker 10/22 just for the action. I'm going to re-barrel and restock it. I could re-purpose the front sight from that barrel.
Darn I missed a gun show last weekend. I have my cut off barrel piece so I can take that around to the show and see what junk I might adapt. I looked at maybe AR gas block, but they're a tad too large, typically .750, and also too expensive at $40-$100 dollars.
Of course if anyone has a spare 10/22 front sight...
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You might try removing this sight and elongating the screw hole (side-to-side) with a round file and then re-mounting. A little heat should help the epoxy to release.
If you could find a piece of tubing or pipe that will fit snugly to the barrel, mount the sight (weld or silver solder) to a length of that and then silver solder to the barrel (like a barrel-band sight).
Similar to this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/120748260496?lpid=82&item=120748260496
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You can silver solder the screw in place then dress it flat and re drill and tap.
I always like touching off with a flat endmill to make a small flat when I am drill round stock. A file can work too.
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The barrel band front sight base on a 10/22 is an integral part of the barrel not a slip on soldered component. At least that's how mine looks.
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Peg, thanks for the lead, thought the diameter is much too small, it's given me some new places to search. I think it needs to be windage adjustable, so I'll fill the hole for now. Already have the old one off. A few well place raps and it popped right off.
TAB, thanks for the tips.
Jumbofrank, It must be soldered on, because Brownell's sell new ones.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/front-sights/ruger-10-22-front-sight-prod42911.aspx (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/front-sights/ruger-10-22-front-sight-prod42911.aspx)
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Alf that sight fits over top of the old front sight base which is part of the barrel. You can see it in the video. It may still work for you but I wouldn't bet on it.
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That's why I'm taking the cutoff part of the barrel to a gun show and seeing what, for cheap, might be adaptable.
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Small gun show Saturday didn't yield anything. Bigger one coming up next weekend.
BUT... and this is why it helps to socialize the problem. Dealer at the show, wondering why I was carrying 8" of a cutoff barrel around, said to check out Brass Stacker.
TA DA
(http://www.mountsplus.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/Mosin_Nagant_9130_Front_Sight_Adapter.jpg)
Basically it's a slip on ring with opposing set screws. It comes in different Inside Diameters depending on how much barrel you have left. Exactly what the dr. ordered. (I actually ordered it from MountsPlus cause I had a discount there.)
http://brassstacker.com/mosin-nagant/Mosin-Nagant-9130-Front-Sight-Adapter-MN-FSAR.html (http://brassstacker.com/mosin-nagant/Mosin-Nagant-9130-Front-Sight-Adapter-MN-FSAR.html)
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is the barrel tapered?
I would be worried about it rattling around and moving on you.
at the very least I would take a file and dress a flat for the set screws.
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Tab has a good point........you can also mark where the set screws go and dimple the spots with a drill bit..... maybe even drill and tap a third set screw.
Anyhoo, glad you found something that might do the trick.
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TAB and Peg posted my first thoughts when I saw the mount.
Keep us posted . ;D
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Why yes a Mosin's barrel is tapered. That's why there are various sizes of this ring. You buy the size that comes closest to how much barrel you have left.
I'll look at their directions first, but Tab and Peg all good suggestions. I suspect once snug and centered a few taps with the hammer and then set the screws (with LocTite) and it'll be done. I 'll see what they recommend. It'll be good to wrap this project up. if I can get it done by Friday morning then I could go to the 100yd range and sight all these rifle in properly.
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When you screw in the set screws it should make a mark that you can see when you take it back off. Then you would know where to put the dimples or flats if you choose to do so.
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if you don't put them there (flats or dimples) the set screws are useless as they will just slide on the round barrel, they will work forward and the whole sight will fall off.
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Okay, as you may have noted from the FedEx thread, the slip-on barrel mount came.
I followed their instructions, which included pushing, with a hammer, the ring as far on the barrel as far as possible. I drilled a barrel sized hole in a 2x4, slipped it over the barrel and used that as a way to really drive the ring as far onto the barrel as possible with the hammer. The set screws are offset and were very pointed, so in theory any attempt turn the ring one way or another is met by resistance from the screw on the the opposite side. Kudos to Brass Stacker for a very neat little product. They have lots of neato products for various platforms. http://brassstacker.com/ (http://brassstacker.com/)
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-DKCm5ch/0/XL/IMG_0386-XL.jpg)
So all that remains is to sight in.
Another one project completed.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-nM4bkZ5/0/XL/IMG_0385-XL.jpg)
Two things I'd never really noticed about the Mosin-Nagant, and I'm sure it may vary depending on model. First there's no safety. Load and shoot. I'm fine with that, just never really noticed before. Secondly I like the finger notch, if that's what it is, behind the trigger guard. A nice touch in shooting comfort. Not something you'd expect to see on an old miltary rifle.
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Good to see it finally coming together, Alf...... looks good.
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Hi;
The safety on the Mosin is on the bolt. Pull back on the round knob and turn either left or right ( I forgot which ). Try this while no rounds are in the weapon.
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I don't want to know that, dipsic. Now I'll be fretting over whether the safety is on or off. I'm better just thinking: Bolt open - safe. Bolt closed - shoot.
And what good does it do to try this with no rounds in the gun? I mean how do I know it wouldn't go off? Here, hold my beer. What's the worst that could happen?
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Still waiting to hear how it shoots ! ;D
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Still waiting to hear how it shoots ! ;D
Still waiting for the stars of Friday to align with warm weather and a real day off.
Alf
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Thanks, Gelka. It's an amateur job. The purpose was to take a $100 surplus rifle and make it more usable for everyday. Of course, with even the very small portion of Scottish (Russel) in my blood, I tried to do it as, uh, inexpensively as possible. It is an emergency loaner, a throwaway, a SHTF or EOTW extra/spare.
I haven't looked at the calendar, but I'm hoping this coming Friday will allow me to go to the outside range.
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With Obama's ban on Russian imports how long will 7.62X 54 BE cheap ?
Probably for a long time - there are lots of other countries with huge stocks to sell off.
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So last Friday was .308 day at the range. And the Mosin was there.
First, because of the shortened sight radius the adjustable rear sight is off, of course. To shoot at 100yds I had to set it for 400yds. No big deal. Was expected. The guys at the range were enamored by such an ugly gun. Of course one guy was weepy eyed over me cutting up a piece of history. ;)
I kept all my shots inside a 12"x18" target but they were spread around. Main reason was the sight picture was just not coming together for me. I think it would have held inside 6" if my eyes were better or with different sights. On my next .308 day, I'll see what I can do about either of these. Maybe a temporary mount for a scope or something.
All in all though, it fits the bill for a throw down, emergency, cheap rifle.
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Cool, glad to hear it.
But don't call it "ugly" .
Its styling was the forerunner of the "Art Deco" styling seen in such classics as the Walther PPK.