The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on April 16, 2021, 10:47:55 AM
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These photos are of the bottom track of my master bedroom slider, viewed from the inside. The top photo is as it looked before I cleaned it. The bottom photo is after I dug out as much of the corrosion has I could with an Awl. I've never seen anything like this, except on neglected battery terminals. It's the same type of crusty, yellow powdery material.
As you can see it has eaten completely through the lower casing of the slider itself. What you're looking at, is a little over a years worth. I noticed it after we moved in, and I cleaned it. It is definitely growing, and I have no idea how to stop it. I'm hesitant to go to a window and door place, because they'll just try to sell me a new slider. I don't want to replace it until I know what is causing it.
I have another identical slider in my dining room that has no such issues. It also is on the same side of the house, facing the back patio as this one is. Has anyone ever seen, or had to deal with anything like this on an Aluminum window casement? The covered concrete patio butts up to the outside of the bedroom wall. There is no soil or moisture problem anywhere around the effected area. You can see the cool decking just outside the window in the top photo.
(https://i.imgur.com/OH0nR8H.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/YvGhpcD.jpg?1)
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Just a guess, but is it possible that the lime in the cement is leaching into the channel with condensation?
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Is there any possibility that the sill is flashed with copper?
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Is there any possibility that the sill is flashed with copper?
I doubt it because that would create a like condition for both sliders. And the other unit is flawless. Also they don't use much, if any copper out here. We get very little rain, and an extremely low relative humidity. Lake Havasu City is one of the driest cities in the nation.
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How far away is your ground?
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Bill, to get that much galvanic action requires either a stray electrical current, or two dissimilar metals in close proximity in the presence of liquid of some type (essentially making a battery). Since you are in Arizona, the liquid needed appears unlikely to be present. But, it also appears that either grid wire or pencil rod has been exposed in the underlying slab immediately adjacent to the affected area. If that grid is near any sort of transformer or a non-isolated power line, it may be acting like a generator and producing low levels of current. It may be possible to determine this if you have a volt meter that shows low level voltage. Since it also appears that the underlying cement has effervesced, that could be the problem. Without actually seeing this and taking some readings, this is only a guess. But it is something you could check. Water intrusion remains a possibility if there are H2O pipes in the slab. You might have some sort of electrolysis going on in the pipes. To rule out this possibility you would need access to a moisture meter. Check with mold investigation or leak detector companies. They should have the equipment. See if they will check that small area of cement on the cheap for you.
FWIW, I have seen a lot of galvanic damage in my life, but something like your pics show has nearly always been from some sort of liquid (normally water) intrusion. Good luck on sorting this out. In the meantime, you can get a spray like Corrosion X https://www.corrosionx.com/products/corrosionx that may provide a temporary solution.
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How far away is your ground?
Ground as in dirt? Or ground as in electrical ground?
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Bill, to get that much galvanic action requires either a stray electrical current, or two dissimilar metals in close proximity in the presence of liquid of some type (essentially making a battery). Since you are in Arizona, the liquid needed appears unlikely to be present. But, it also appears that either grid wire or pencil rod has been exposed in the underlying slab immediately adjacent to the affected area. If that grid is near any sort of transformer or a non-isolated power line, it may be acting like a generator and producing low levels of current. It may be possible to determine this if you have a volt meter that shows low level voltage. Since it also appears that the underlying cement has effervesced, that could be the problem. Without actually seeing this and taking some readings, this is only a guess. But it is something you could check. Water intrusion remains a possibility if there are H2O pipes in the slab. You might have some sort of electrolysis going on in the pipes. To rule out this possibility you would need access to a moisture meter. Check with mold investigation or leak detector companies. They should have the equipment. See if they will check that small area of cement on the cheap for you.
FWIW, I have seen a lot of galvanic damage in my life, but something like your pics show has nearly always been from some sort of liquid (normally water) intrusion. Good luck on sorting this out. In the meantime, you can get a spray like Corrosion X https://www.corrosionx.com/products/corrosionx that may provide a temporary solution.
All my water supply lines run through the walls and in the attic. They are all sweat soldered copper. There are no water supply lines running under or in the slab to my knowledge. There are drains however. (Plastic PVC).
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Ground as in dirt? Or ground as in electrical ground?
Electrical.
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https://www.swisco.com/discussions/Electrolysis-damage-on-sliding-glass-door-77-71589
Looks like a similar issue where chemicals in the concrete create an issue.
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https://www.swisco.com/discussions/Electrolysis-damage-on-sliding-glass-door-77-71589
Looks like a similar issue where chemicals in the concrete create an issue.
That looks like it exactly.
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OK, here is what I'm looking at. Bear with me here, because I only know enough about electricity to be dangerous. But as you can see, I'm getting some type of current flow. With the meter set on the "DCV 200M" scale, (whatever that is), the reading is 0 with the leads touching nothing but the laminate flooring.
Then when I stick the leads into the yellow crap, it reads -112. So there has to be some type of current flow taking place. The bottom picture is the outside of the slider. The corrosion in the inside track, is right where the shower head of the sprinkling can is located. My electrical box is located right on the corner outside wall. The 2 junction boxes to the right of the hose bib are for telephone and Internet.
My power comes in by overhead wire. I have no idea what the elbow is coming out of the ground and into the house, right under the main breaker box.
(https://i.imgur.com/reEv8KF.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/dNzJZhW.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/FoAeIXe.jpg?1)
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https://www.swisco.com/discussions/Electrolysis-damage-on-sliding-glass-door-77-71589
Looks like a similar issue where chemicals in the concrete create an issue.
That makes sense to me.
Crusader Rabbit
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OK, here is what I'm looking at. Bear with me here, because I only know enough about electricity to be dangerous. But as you can see, I'm getting some type of current flow. With the meter set on the "DCV 200M" scale, (whatever that is), the reading is 0 with the leads touching nothing but the laminate flooring.
Then when I stick the leads into the yellow crap, it reads -112. So there has to be some type of current flow taking place. The bottom picture is the outside of the slider. The corrosion in the inside track, is right where the shower head of the sprinkling can is located. My electrical box is located right on the corner outside wall. The 2 junction boxes to the right of the hose bib are for telephone and Internet.
My power comes in by overhead wire. I have no idea what the elbow is coming out of the ground and into the house, right under the main breaker box.
(https://i.imgur.com/reEv8KF.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/dNzJZhW.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/FoAeIXe.jpg?1)
that is either power going some where or your ground.
112 volts tells me its getting power tk the al track some where.
I am headed down that way this fall, if you can wait that long I am sure a few good steaks could convince me to rip out the door.
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That 112 milliVolts. 112/1000Volts. Not dangerous but definitely a current flow capable of supporting a slow galvanic action.
I'd start with a ground rod at your meter.
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That 112 milliVolts. 112/1000Volts. Not dangerous but definitely a current flow capable of supporting a slow galvanic action.
I'd start with a ground rod at your meter.
This.
Possibly multiple culprits acting together as a chain reaction.
My number one suspect for initializing the process was the potential for past pressure washing with certain chemicals that react with aluminum (bleach, for one and many household cleaners).
If some previous owner had the hose pressure washed, it could have blown enough liquid into a poor door seal and with the small voltage present, started the reaction that normally wouldn't react, sans liquid.
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This.
Possibly multiple culprits acting together as a chain reaction.
My number one suspect for initializing the process was the potential for past pressure washing with certain chemicals that react with aluminum (bleach, for one and many household cleaners).
Simple Green makes a cleaner just for aluminum.
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I wonder if vinegar based glass cleaners dripping down their could have contributed.
(Only Perfect Glass for us now. Vinegar also harms mirror coatings, bts.)
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I wonder if vinegar based glass cleaners dripping down their could have contributed.
(Only Perfect Glass for us now. Vinegar also harms mirror coatings, bts.)
Vinegar will etch aluminum.... it's one of the things you can pre-treat raw aluminum with to help paint stick better. It might have taken a little longer because the aluminum was anodized, but it'd do it.
Bleach is straight-up corrosive, but it takes time too.
I've seen old farm houses with the aluminum siding that was popular in the late 40's-60's that had the drain lines for the washer ran through the wall onto the ground instead of to the septic system and years of bleach use had eaten the siding away.
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Don’t cook tomato based sauce in aluminum pots!
Same thing...
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Vinegar will etch aluminum.... it's one of the things you can pre-treat raw aluminum with to help paint stick better. It might have taken a little longer because the aluminum was anodized, but it'd do it.
Bleach is straight-up corrosive, but it takes time too.
That's handy to know.
I may want to etch "Go f*ck yourself Joe" on an aluminum plate. ;D
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So.... Bright and early this morning I went to a door and windows place right down the street from me. I brought my phone and showed the guy the pictures I posted here. He told me he has seen this type of corrosion a lot in this area. It can be a combination of many things. Mostly it's a chemical reaction with the chemical mixture in the concrete, which conducts electricity through the Aluminum track.
Add ground moisture and time, and this is the result. The solution is a new slider, which I expected. He sells Milgard, which is what I had when I replaced the slider in my other house in Glendale. They have several different grades and sizes. For me it will run around $1,400.00 and change for something with halfway decent quality.
He's coming in a couple of weeks to do some exact measuring, then he'll order it and I'll be done. Most all of the models he sells are Vinyl, so this can't happen. (Vinyl doesn't conduct electricity, and is far more corrosion proof). I'm not worried about direct sunlight exposure because it will be protected by the patio roof.
When he's done, it will be done. No painting, stuccoing, trimming, or spackling, on my part. For that price I'm seriously thinking about letting him do both of them. That way they'll match. The screen door on the one in my dining room is a POS that doesn't line up right. He told me it could take 6 to 8 weeks because of Covid. Everything is back ordered, but he told me they are shipping now quite regularly.
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Good deal, Bill.....you beat me to it on the vinyl.
I was going to say, if you replace it, go with vinyl-clad or get the installer to line the opening with a vapor barrier. There's some decent stuff out now for lining door and window openings to prevent direct contact.
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Good deal, Bill.....you beat me to it on the vinyl.
I was going to say, if you replace it, go with vinyl-clad or get the installer to line the opening with a vapor barrier. There's some decent stuff out now for lining door and window openings to prevent direct contact.
He told me that he was going to do both. After he gets the old track out, he'll scrape, brush, and blow out as much of the contaminated area as possible, then apply a brush on coating. Then over that he'll place a vapor barrier so nothing will be in direct contact with the concrete itself. He said he will guarantee that it will never occur again.
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So, this morning they delivered and installed both of my new sliding glass doors. I couldn't believe how corroded the old track was! The whole thing just fell apart when he removed it. I was glad to see the concrete under it was in good shape after he scraped and cleaned 30 years of crap off it. There was even a 30 year old cigarette butt in there! The new track is vinyl, so it will never corrode.
The new units fit perfectly. It took 2 guys about 3-1/2 hours start to finish, to remove and install both doors. They really did a nice job. They were both real careful fitting, leveling, adjusting, and caulking everything. Both doors open and close effortlessly with one finger. The only problem is the doors were done before the screen doors were. So once they're delivered they'll come back and install both. That's a 5 minute job. So another worry is behind me.
Now the wife wants new verticals. I can't blame her, the old ones are looking crappy compared to the new doors. She going to call a blind and window treatment guy today, and make an appointment..... More money. :-X
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Now the wife wants new verticals. I can't blame her, the old ones are looking crappy compared to the new doors. She going to call a blind and window treatment guy today, and make an appointment..... More money. :-X
The law of unintended consequences! :o
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So, this morning they delivered and installed both of my new sliding glass doors. I couldn't believe how corroded the old track was! The whole thing just fell apart when he removed it. I was glad to see the concrete under it was in good shape after he scraped and cleaned 30 years of crap off it. There was even a 30 year old cigarette butt in there! The new track is vinyl, so it will never corrode.
The new units fit perfectly. It took 2 guys about 3-1/2 hours start to finish, to remove and install both doors. They really did a nice job. They were both real careful fitting, leveling, adjusting, and caulking everything. Both doors open and close effortlessly with one finger. The only problem is the doors were done before the screen doors were. So once they're delivered they'll come back and install both. That's a 5 minute job. So another worry is behind me.
Now the wife wants new verticals. I can't blame her, the old ones are looking crappy compared to the new doors. She going to call a blind and window treatment guy today, and make an appointment..... More money. :-X
Of course you know the new verticals, and doors will now make the wall finish look old and crappy. ;D
Then it will be the furniture.
Maybe the other way around . ;D ;D
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Of course you know the new verticals, and doors will now make the wall finish look old and crappy. ;D
Then it will be the furniture.
Maybe the other way around . ;D ;D
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