The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Tyler Durden on May 12, 2011, 12:56:58 AM
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Hi everyone,
I picked this up in March:
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/DPMS762X39Sportical.jpg)
I picked it up for right around $700. I guess the "Sportical" part means that the upper doesn't have a forward assist, brass deflector, and a dust cover. It came with two C-products 30 round 7.62X39mm Russian mags, which run 100% reliably. It has a 16 inch barrel.
The scope you see on there is actually my 17 year old Nikon 3 to 9 by 40. It is sitting in an el cheapo Model 1 Sales mount.
Other than that, it is stock. I haven't done anything to it. well, I did put the BUIS on it, but I haven't zero'ed those yet.
I bought it at Cabela's. I also bought 200 rounds of American Eagle (made by Federal) brass cased ammo with a 124 grain FMJ bullet. I made the mistake of also buying 200 rounds of this Hungarian made ammo they sell there. It comes in these little black cardboard boxes. It is also brass cased, but MAN! did the gun ever puke on it.
The lower is a regular AR-15 lower, which is one of the reasons I bought it...keeping the idea I could put a .223 upper on it some time.
These additional pics were from first and only day out at the range with it:
100 yard group:
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/AR762X39hundredyardgroup.jpg)
200 yard group:
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/Sportical200yardgroup-1.jpg)
and then a 50 yard group with the same 100 yard zero:
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/Sportical50yardgroup-1.jpg)
in all, I ran about 100 rounds of the American Eagle brass cased ammo through it, with NOT one single solitary hiccup. ;D
The Hungarian stuff puked on each round of the 5 I tried to shoot through it. The last round I fired I had to use the pliers from my multitool to pull the brass case off the bolt face. It stovepiped bad on every round.
I am looking forward to putting more rounds through it.
I have an ELCAN M145 scope which has a bullet drop compensating reticle.
(http://webyshops.com/ns/images/Elcan/ELCAN-M145-3_4x-Optical-Sight-M240-M249-Machine-Gun-Reticle-ELCM145C-Pic2.jpg)
...actually meant for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). With the 7.62X39's drop, I was thinking of using the ELCAN and making the 300 meter mark my 100 yard zero. Then figuring out which hash mark in the reticle jives up with 200 yard...300 yards...etc.
I might actually reload for it at some point.
Since I shoot USPSA and IDPA pistol matches, I have come to rely on "power factor" to describe the uuummmphh a bullet has. Power factor is bullet weight in grains times velocity in feet per second. So let's say for 55 grain bullet in .223...oh at about 3,000 feet per second, it has a PF of 165,000 or 165. This AR chambered in that danged Commie round should be pushing a 124 grain bullet at about 2,400 fps...so a PF of 297,600 or 297.6...so just about twice the uummpphh of an AR .223 bullet.
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anywhooo....If you are looking for something still in an AR15 platform with a little more thump, that does not have the ammo availabilty issues as say the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel does and you're NOT quite ready to step up to a .308 Winchester (AR10) platform, this 7.62X39mm Russian AR might be right up your alley.
I plan on shooting some steel cased ammo the next time out. I will just have to "mike" the bullets first to see if they are .308 or closer to .311. The American Eagle brass cased stuff has a .308 bullet.
And yes, I am using day glow pink duct tape as an aiming point. I bought a big pack of card stock paper at the office supply store. so that's my target. duct tape is actually 1.88 inches wide and I put the 25 cent piece in the pic just to give an idea of scale.
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With the Elcan mounted and calibrated so you know which hash mark is what range with the 7.62 X 39 it seems like the ideal medium range fighting or medium game rifle. Double the power of the 223, light recoil, cheap ammo, and a simple Lego type action that can be modified quickly and easily for special purposes.
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Nice rifle Tyler. I have one in .556 and have not a word of complaint about accuracy or performance. If you don't care about the stripped upper, which I don't, its hard to beat at the price. My only bitch is that there isn't a lot of real estate on the rails once you put an optic on it. What did you use for BUIS? Also, what's your plan for a sling mount?
FQ13
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DPMS builds a nice gun for the money. And you can't beat the round. Does it say anything in the manual about shooting steel cased corrosive 7.62 X 39 MM in it? Bill T.
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One has to wonder what Kalashnikov's response would be... :)
"глупые американцы!"
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Probably something less printable. ;) The way I see it, is buying a 7.62x.39 upper is a waste of money when you can get a perfectly good AK at the same price or less. Still, if you know and like the AR system, why not get the platform you are familiar with if you are buying from scratch? Its a lot better than buying a boutique round like the 6.8 IMHO. STILL, the thing that would hold me back is not being able to cycle the cheap com-bloc ammo, which is half the point of choosing the caliber. I would bet you could buy after market firing pins, feed ramps etc. that would let you shoot the cheap stuff. If so, it sounds great. If not, well, the choice is accuracy vs available ammo. Your call.
FQ13
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I kinda reckon'ed that somebody would say, "Just buy an AK already!"
well, first off, attaching a scope to an AK seems iffey at best.
second, there is this video of an AK vs. AR...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0
pay attention to the 20 second mark
it bugs me that an AK47's barrel wiggles around so much. I have emailed pics of my hundred yard groups to friends who are really into their AK's. They have all replied back that those are some good groups.
third, the same manual of arms as my FrankenAR15.
fourth, I can swap out the 7.62X39mm Russian upper and put on a .223 upper. My FrankenAR is wearing a 20 inch stainless heavy barreled upper. It also has a fixed A2 type stock. so if I wanted a shorter barreled and lighter .223 upper, I could just put it on the 7.62X39 Sportical AR lower.
since I reload and cast my own boolits, I was thinking of doing something like this:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=46874&hilit=cast
yeah, casting my own bullets and then making gas checks (which are normally expensive copper) out of aluminum cans. not because I have to, but rather just to see for myself that it can be done.
I'm not all that interested in reloading the steel cases, but that is an interesting option.
As far as not shooting the steel cased ammo in the Sportical, I am thinking it has nothing really to do with the case but rather the bullet size. I think the foreign bullets are sized to 0.311"
Yeah, at some point when I need trunk gun, a cheap AK47 underfolder would fit the bill.
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I haven't figured anything out for a sling yet.
As far as BUIS goes, the front is probably a Yankee Hill Machine, ....the rear might be too. I have or had a Wilson combat rear one around somewhere too. ???
At one point I had been experimenting with canted AR sights. For 3 gun matches/rifle side matches, that 3 to 9 power Nikon was too much power, so I would roll the rifle over to the side and use the canted AR sights...long before Barry Dueck of Team Surefire started making/marketing his own:
(http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/surefire-rts-mounted.jpg)
one of the flip up rear BUIS's I was using didn't have enough windage adjustment to it, so I bought the Wilson Combat.
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I and everybody's seen the video. Pretty sure it was filmed by, and for crack heads... YEP, that cleaning rod flex's and jumps all over the place! NOT the barrel in the trunion, or the reciever.
It's like arguing Chevy vs Ford. EVERYONES opinions are so clouded with personal favoratism and SLANTED PRESS. The whole point is moot. Shoot what you like and be enjoy it. :)
Fact is, the guns I choose will not likely never come into play saving your life. And the guns you choose will likely never come into play saving mine! ;) Enjoy what you got! ;D
Nice rifle. :)
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I haven't figured anything out for a sling yet.
As far as BUIS goes, the front is probably a Yankee Hill Machine, ....the rear might be too. I have or had a Wilson combat rear one around somewhere too. ???
At one point I had been experimenting with canted AR sights. For 3 gun matches/rifle side matches, that 3 to 9 power Nikon was too much power, so I would roll the rifle over to the side and use the canted AR sights...long before Barry Dueck of Team Surefire started making/marketing his own:
(http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/surefire-rts-mounted.jpg)
one of the flip up rear BUIS's I was using didn't have enough windage adjustment to it, so I bought the Wilson Combat.
So you're holding it gangsta style? Sorry, couldn't resist. ;D Seriously, if you (or anyone) have some BUIS lying around PM me. I need a standard rear and a gas block front.
FQ13
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Good choice Tyler, I looked long and hard at the Sportical and would have bought one if a local company hadn't started having lower receivers built with my home town address on the side :) - maybe I'll go that route next time.
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Excellent Tyler. Those are excellent out of the box groups for a lower end rifle. Must be the great marksman behind the trigger. If I had the need for 7.62x39, I'd take this over the Mini-30 any day.
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thanks guys!
flattery will get you nowhere!
;D
besides reloading the brass cased stuff for it (I can get 147 grain .308 caliber "pull down" bullets locally very cheap, about 11 cents each)....the other thing I had in mind was...
I think there is a growing current or school of thought in the 3 gun competition world. if you shoot a major power factored rifle, you only need to put one hit on each target.
if you're using a .223 chambered rifle (an AR most likely) then you still have to put two hits on paper.
so depending on the match and their rules, I might be able to zip through a stage with just one shot/hit on each target.
maybe.... ???
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besides reloading the brass cased stuff for it (I can get 147 grain .308 caliber "pull down" bullets locally very cheap, about 11 cents each)....the other thing I had in mind was...
Is the bore .308 or .311? I was under the impression that most AK/SKSs out there where .311 and the AK bullet was sized for that. .308 may give slightly poorer accuracy (may not matter though depending on your application)
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http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/category.aspx?id=6 (http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/category.aspx?id=6)
Hmmm. ? :-\
I think Ruger is the only idiot to ever taint the 7.62X39 world with an incorrect bore size. Sorry, I like most Ruger products, but... IDIOT.
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when I called DPMS last week the technical guy on the other end of the line said that they were shelving...err...back burner'ing ....their 7.62X39 items because of the mag availability issue.
which, of course, sucks!
anywhooo....I ran through some IDPA style field course rifle stages on Sunday with that rifle. whoopss...let me back up a bit.... I went to a gunshow on Saturday, and I checked out steel cased ammo prices for .223 and 7.62X39 for a friend. I even took pictures of the prices. The ammo was going for right around $210 to $235 per 1,000. so about 23.5 cents each.
I can get 147 grain .308 FMJ bullets, pull downs, originally meant for the military, for 11 cents each. I have to figure in my powder and primer still, and then my time doing case prep...ugggh....
is reloading bottlenecked rifle cases really worth it? ???
and of the 30 rounds of my .223 reloads I shot on Sunday. I only recovered like 15 of them. Of those 15, 4 of them had split case necks.
So it looks like annealing my cases is in order.... >:(
great...more work.
this is one way to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgD5D0Wzu-c
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is reloading bottlenecked rifle cases really worth it?
Yes. But you need good equipment and have to shop for your components, and buy in bulk. Primers, bullets, and powder can be had for much less if you shop around. The Internet makes this a lot easier. You can store a lot of places in your favorites, and get on their E-Mail lists, and they'll contact you when they have sales and deals on certain items. Be prepared to buy on a moments notice, so have some cash saved up, and on hand for that purpose when the time and need come up.
Next is your equipment. You'll be a lot happier if you buy good equipment right from the get go, and not "trade up" later. Don't worry about the cost. The more you shoot, the faster you'll recover your investment. With factory .223 going for around $9.00 a magazine full, it won't take long. Other calibers like 9 MM are still cheap enough to buy and shoot factory. Just save all of the brass and sooner or later you'll be glad you did. This stuff is only going to get more expensive as time goes on.
Don't get caught up in things like case annealing. I haven't annealed a case in 35 years of reloading. Most of the time other factors will cause you to chuck the brass before the necks start to split. A good press, (progressive), a good powered case trimmer, along with a good method of cleaning your cases with a large enough capacity, and you'll be up and running in the right direction.
When you first get into this it will be difficult to justify the initial cost. You will be comparing it to ammo you can buy. That will pass after a couple thousand rounds, and the savings start to be realized. Most people who say they haven't saved much by reloading haven't approached it right. They don't buy good equipment, and pay too much for components. Buy good stuff and shop wisely for it, and you will see the savings, along with how much more you'll be able to shoot. Once you get going you will find you will always have enough ammo on hand, instead of having to buy it all the time when it seems you can least afford it. That keeps a lot of guys home, instead of on the range. Bill T.
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If you take the time for load development your payback will be in the ultimate accuracy from your rifle.
Folks have said, and my limited experience verifies it, that each rifle will have a load that gives the best accuracy in it and it alone.
I've worked up a load for a AR15 that would print 3/4 of an inch at 100yds from sandbags with a scope. It would not do it at it's best, this was all day. 100 rounds all through the same hole. No flyers ever unless I sneezed.
That same load didn't do so good in any of the other rifles in which it was used.....bolt or semi.
Is that kind of accuracy necessary in other than competition? Well, it simply extends the effective range of your rifle greatly whether you are using it for hunting or in a tactical situation.
Pick a bullet weight/configuration/brand(s) that have proven effective and buy a ton of each.
Pick one of them and then one of the many powders that work with it and start making rounds, say 25 at each powder weight increment you choose from as low powered as you would go to as close to max as you want to try.
Take them to the range and shoot five 5 shot groups of each weight batch. Record group size. I used a chrono so I also had measurements of consistency with which to work.
You will soon find some loads that are dogs and some that have real potential...and most that just do OK.
Keep tweaking the gems and you will be rewarded.
Problem is that no matter how good of a load you come up with, even if you strike it rich with a load that will do 1/4 in groups all day long, you will wonder if some other combination you haven't tried might shave a 1/32 off that size....
I managed to give up the quest for the Holy Grail and settled for that load that put them all under less than a 25 cent piece.
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I have got a Dillon 650 with a casefeeder.
It is set up right now to reload .223.
I was using the Possum Hollow cutter/trimmer chucked in a drill to trim brass with:
(http://www.possumhollowproducts.com/products/power-adapter.jpg)
versus other hand held methods, it seems really fast. and I was running my .223 brass through in a batch process. resize on the dillon 650 with the casefeeder (yay! no need to handle each case everytime). then trim to 1.73" using the possum hollow cutter/trimmer (PHC) and tool holder. it indexes off the datum point at the case shoulder, and there is a set screw so you can gingerly use the back end of your calipers (the pointey end that slides in and out) to creep up on where the cutter needs to be inside the black part pictured above)
I clamped the drill in a vise with it pointing up towards the ceiling so the case neck shavings would drop out. every now and then I would stick the skinny straw from a can of compressed air into the PHC to blow out all the brass chips. then I would insert the normally handheld chamfering tool into the Possum Hollow toolholder to get rid of the burr and put a slight chamfer inside the case neck.
It was mind numbing work. I would put my mp3 earbuds in and then put my non-electronic ear muffs over my ears in attempt to make it seem not so tedious.
Here is a video of how the Possum Hollow Cutter works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i42nDelSKf8
and then is how the deburring works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=volkNAxUiOo&feature=related
anywhooo.... with all my time being spent at work, I had some money burning a hole in my pocket so I bought the Dillon case trimmer.
which looks like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L5WNOVlLAU&NR=1
I just did the math. For .223, I am spending about 16.4 cents per round. The imported steel cased stuff is around 21 cents each.
Decisions...decisions....
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Let's see. $.04 difference versus tedium and hassel. Is it just me or does this seem like a no brainer? Hell, buy a few cases of the UAE stuff (at a little less than the $.30 per round pre loaded on stripper clips) and call it a day. If you like the reloading for the perfect round ala Solus its one thing. If its a chore, buy Mil surp in bulk and be done with it. Just my .02.
FQ13
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when I called DPMS last week the technical guy on the other end of the line said that they were shelving...err...back burner'ing ....their 7.62X39 items because of the mag availability issue.
which, of course, sucks!
anywhooo....I ran through some IDPA style field course rifle stages on Sunday with that rifle. whoopss...let me back up a bit.... I went to a gunshow on Saturday, and I checked out steel cased ammo prices for .223 and 7.62X39 for a friend. I even took pictures of the prices. The ammo was going for right around $210 to $235 per 1,000. so about 23.5 cents each.
I can get 147 grain .308 FMJ bullets, pull downs, originally meant for the military, for 11 cents each. I have to figure in my powder and primer still, and then my time doing case prep...ugggh....
is reloading bottlenecked rifle cases really worth it? ???
and of the 30 rounds of my .223 reloads I shot on Sunday. I only recovered like 15 of them. Of those 15, 4 of them had split case necks.
So it looks like annealing my cases is in order.... >:(
great...more work.
this is one way to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgD5D0Wzu-c
I think what might be going on is that from what I've heard and read is that C Products made a 7.62 magazine that worked very well compared to what else was available. I believe that C products no longer exist as the same company. Something about lawsuits, partner problems, loss of equipment to settle lawsuits, etc. Not sure where evrything ended up but sounds like it became a real mess. I think someone is still producing magazines that say C Products on them, but they may not be what they once were. There were several threads on the arf15 forums about everthing going on. I would venture to say that DPMS might have decided to wait out the magazine problem rather than risk shipping products with unreliable magazines.
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I was thinking about going the same way with an AR upper in 7.62, but then I started reading about 6.8 SPC. Despite the ammo cost, way higher with 6.8, I decided to go that way for now. However, looking at your set up has got me thinking again that a 7.62 X 39 upper might be a lot of fun.
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I was thinking about going the same way with an AR upper in 7.62, but then I started reading about 6.8 SPC. Despite the ammo cost, way higher with 6.8, I decided to go that way for now. However, looking at your set up has got me thinking again that a 7.62 X 39 upper might be a lot of fun.
I wish you well. Sort of like I do for every one who buys a 10mm. Hopefully, you'll help drive the price of ammo down because it is a sweet round. ;)
FQ13
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A quick question. What are the differences between a 5.56 AR magazine and a 7.62x39 AR magazine? They both are going to be the same thickness and width. So I am thinking the only difference will be the follower(?) spring and the lips of the magazine. If that is the case how hard would it be to convert magazines.
Ranger Dave
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You'd have to take a look at the 7.62X39 round side by side next to a .223 round.
The 7.62X39 is shorter, actually, but the main thing is how it tapers down. It is fat at the headstamp area and skinny at the shoulders. so when you get a bunch of them all lined up or stacked up against each other they want to form a semi-circle...or just some part of a circle.
Now, I haven't done it myself, but I am willing to give it a try.
They say if you get more than 10 of the 7.62X39 rounds into a normal AR15/.223 mag, all that stacking and tapered-ness makes the rounds jam or the follower tilt so much it doesn't push the rounds up to the top in order to get stripped off by the bolt.