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This week's references
and learn more links :
***************************************** SHOW #38: 12/26/07
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Old Guns and Whispering Ghosts
By Jesse Hardin
Sixguns
by Elmer Keith
Ed McGivern's Book of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting
by Ed McGivern
Single Action Sixguns
by John Taffin
Death in the Long Grass
by Peter Hathaway Capstick
The Custom Revolver
by Hamilton Bowen
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Great broadcast with great points. For enthusiasts of other concerns being a "nut" is a good thing...for us it's disparaging. It's good to hear someone else, someone of stature in the gun world, speaking sense that should educate us all and be incorporated in our thinking. I've been called a gun nut by people I work with, I immediately turn it around and call them a bicycle nut, a mall-rat nut, a movie nut, etc...etc...and put them on the defensive and, just as MB said/alluded, I'm asked..."Why do you need that gun?"...I turn it around, "Why do you need the bicycle, that DVD, those walking shoes, etc. etc.",...usually they justify themselves which gives me an opportunity to condense it to..."Oh, because you like what you do and enjoy it...well I do to and I, besides having a God-given right to own a gun, have a constitutional right to have a gun. Do you have a constitutional right to a bicycle, car, mall, DVD, video game, etc?"
Basically, I put them on the defensive by being bold (sometimes the lesson "Mama" taught us, to get along, should not be applied!)...in a nice way, of course. I refuse to be a doormat because I'm a gun owner and just because someone makes fun of guns I don't flee from some idiot's ridicule...who cares what some mindless, gun-hating, idiot thinks, give it back to 'em nicely, in front of people and stick with it, don't back down....and when you get right down to it in the conversation...a lot of the people who made fun of me have guns too and they are both educated and somewhat cowered (due to our society) to admit having/liking guns. I think of being bold about my gun ownership in conversation as empowerment for cowardly gun owners....understanding that they probably won't pass on gun ownership to their children with the attitude they've learned.
Oh, and for the hard-core gun haters...I never give them a break. Whatever they dish out about "gun nut" I give them back in triplicate so they end up being the one rightfully portrayed as an intolerant idiot. Speak with liability in mind of course, pick your times, audience and words and remember, you don't have to respond to them on their time table or premise...don't be goaded into their trap....wait and be prepared! 98% of the time, after a while, they simply learn to shut-up.
Interestingly enough, many of the hard-core gun haters can be swayed over time. Seems as though most people simply want to fit in (mama did teach us to get along, right?) and will change their beliefs...the "Sheeple" principle.
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Rastus...well put!
One of our biggest problems as a culture is that we cling to a strategy — head in sand; humble hat in hand — that failed. We think we're in a debate, not a war, and act accordingly. We are then shocked — SHOCKED, I tell you — when the other side disregards our carefully structured arguments, promulgates huge lies and screams and shouts about how we're actually marginal lunatics.
Like you, my response is to always turn the attack around and take no prisoners. I do not give ground. I do not play the "well, you'll surely agree..." game. My favorite recent one is "we need to have a discussion about the kind of world we want to live in" argument. My response was what part of an "armed world" didn't you understand?
There may be personal consequences to taking that path...the Forest Service fight I've been in for the last two years has cost me friendships I valued. The antigun zealots, after failing to push me, pushed my friends to push me ("If you don't back off, they're going to take it out on us")...a sleazy-as-hell tactic that shows their true colors. Some of those "friends" are no longer my friends.
I believe we win hearts and minds by not equivocating, not agreeing that "you may have a point," but by living our talk.
Michael B
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http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/problem_detail.asp?SDID=212:1603 send this to your anti friends.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one. I'll straight up tell people that "I LIKE GUNS." I read a letter to Guns & Ammo a few years ago from an anti- that had a line that said ".....Why don't you all put down your ridiculous toys and grow up?!....." G&A got a lot of flak from it's loyal readers for publshing it. When I read it I thought "I wonder what THIS guy likes. Airplanes? Motorcyclyes? Hot Rods? WHY DOESN'T HE PUT DOWN HIS TOYS AND GROW UP!" I'd be glad to have either of you boys as a shooting and hunting buddy.
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Never give up, never surrender. Arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can, but even then, beware the liber somethings will just say, "but don't you think? " Yes I do and no, your wrong, as to why you have a gun besides why can't I have one, do you have a spare tire? do you have insurance? do you have a fire extinguisher? Do you have an emergency escape plan? Do you have a carbon monoxide detector? Do you have a smoke detector? Why? just in case something happens. A hammer is a tool to a carpenter, a weapon if needed by good and bad alike. Same thing with a shovel or baseball bat, the term toy applies to the usage of the given instrument, a telescope can look at the heavens, or at your next door neighbors wife. I have some really nice guitars, but I'm not a professional musician, So I really don't need these, So What. I like guns, and sorry if you don't know they are legal, even if they look like machine guns. + machine guns are legal if I want to jump through the hoops. Educate your neighbors if the subject comes up, stay calm but passionate, build friends within your community, and don't believe the lies promulgated on us. I've found shooters by and large are great people. I would not have stayed in this community if it was otherwise.
As for books not yet mentioned.
1) You can't miss, with MB, and John Shaw, perfect for the beginner and intermidiate shooter.
2) Hell, I was there, Elmer Keith...
3) Successful shooting, by Pullum and Hanenkrat, excellent mental preparation..
4) Principles of personal defense, Jeff Cooper.
5) Blue Steel and Gun leather by John Bianchi.
6) A Handbook for the Hythe by Hans Busch..........
Any of the Lonny Bassham books or tapes.
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God, Guns and Rock & Roll
Kill it and Grill It
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Good information. I'm going to start with Cooper. A man's man.
When confronted about my lifetime interest in firearms, I usually remind people of what was the lead story in the morning paper. True story. Shortly before Thanksgiving. there were two lady volunteers for Meals-on-Wheels preparing deliveries at a church in Roanoke Rapids, NC. They were attacked with a deranged man with a knife. One lady was killed, the other left for dead. The suspect fled and the hunt was on statewide with much publicity. The following day, I was at the grocery early in the morning to pick up donuts for the NC Concealed Carry safety course I help teach. It was range day and I was in the company uniform which featured a big, Sig, P 220 embrordered on the chest. The lady ahead of me in line, a neat, 40 something W/F, turned and looked at me from boots to ballcap. With a curled upper lip she sneared, "Shot anybody lately?'. I stalled and took a breath (breath, relax, aim, squeeeeze), and said "No, but if you run into that butcher from Roanoke Rapids in the parking lot, you will probably see it happen."
Her mouth came open, but the wheels were spinning in her head. She closed her mouth, grabbed her groceries and headed toward the door. Never looked back. But before she went through the sliding doors, she stopped and gave the parking lot a hard look. VICTORY!! And I may even see her in class one day. I recounted that incident to the class later that day. Several heads bobed up and down with understanding and a lady admitted she had been in the Anti camp, but the news stories about crime and violence...... You know the rest of the story. Keep preaching and keep teaching. Mac.
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Mack, I love that story! PRICELESS! ;D
Gotta check out those books......
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......our biggest problems as a culture is that we cling to a strategy — head in sand; humble hat in hand — that failed. We think we're in a debate,..... when the other side.... promulgates huge lies and screams and shouts.....
.....I do not play the "well, you'll surely agree..." game. My favorite recent one is "we need to have a discussion about the kind of world we want to live in" argument. My response was what part of an "armed world" didn't you understand?
There may be personal consequences ...... Some of those "friends" are no longer my friends.
I believe we win hearts and minds by...... but by living our talk.
Michael B
Mr. Bane, that is an especially good way to relate the comment about....getting into their game by walking down the "well, you'll surely agree..." path. Most people trip up right there and become followers not leaders. When if I'm off my wit (I'm kinda slow...OK.) I say something, anything, with "NO" in it. Like, "No, no I do not agree with you because both your logic and premise is flawed." That usually get's them stiff and gives me time to think. Now, invariably guys, the gun-hater will say something like, "Well what's wrong with it....or What part are you talking about?" to make us justify our statement. Now, just remember to throw the monkey back to them 'cause that's what they just did, make them justify with something like, "Gee, how transparent and predjudiced is that, what do you mean what part is bad, it's so obvious you don't want enter a discussion of thought..." or whatever you come up with to put the ball back in their court.
Essentially, 1) disagree 2) sling the monkey back to them and 3) put them on the defensive. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it. Also, tag them with liberal buzz words, like intolerant, prejudiced, litmus test, close-minded, etc., etc.
Yup, "friends" will fall out. I don't hate that part any longer. Gun ownership is a conviction with some, a belief with others. Convictions don't change, beliefs do. In my mind, beliefs are relative...as in are you willing to lose that paycheck, get passed over for a promotion, or be ridiculed socially? A conviction is something to die for. You definition of belief may be the same as my definition for conviction....so don't be flaming here guys 'cause you know what I mean!
Yup...walk it, live it and be it. Some of us need to be bold, heck, at least carry a little pocket knife to work as permitted. I think a lot of our discussion here is related to our culture being demasculinated (sp?)....I was born with bat and balls swinging so I'm just not gonna roll over and be some liberal sister's idea of what they think a (OK...I'm gonna use a bad word here) *-^-s-s-y boy should be....c'mon that's just being a dang sissy...ya'll do remember what a sissy is, don't you?
Good points with the spare tire, carbon monoxide detector, insurance and the like...I'll add those to my repetoire if you don't mind...that's really sharp thinking of those examples.
DD Mack...I needed the breath, relax, aim & squeeeze. I'm gonna try to remember that in my next verbal confrontation...very good. Also...you take the cake man...I love it, had that hussy looking over her shoulder. WAY TO GO ! ! !
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If you all haven't figured out by now,... I'm uhhhhmmm... not too shy. LOL ::)
So when Marshal and I are someplace and someone shoots off their ignorant mouth about this issue..
he just squares his shoulders and takes a quiet long deep breath, says a silent prayer that it will be quick and waits.. ;D
(Sometimes it's rather futile, like talking to a box of rocks.. but sometimes its worth the wait.) ;)
I've picked my teeth with what was left of some after I get done with them. ;D
I have very little.. in fact zip/none/zero tolerance for closed minded, 'look at the world through a toilet paper tube' mentality.
He was the same way and did the same thing in Norway, but he was using his native language..
( and yea.. he says they have just as many idiots over there as here. ::)
He's great at discussing gun issues and rights in a civilized manner, but when it comes to the buffoons
sometimes English words fail him in a fast head on...
(((That is why I usually win all the arguments between us at home)))
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/yes.gif)
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I agree Rastus...
the breathe, relax, aim & squeeeeeeeeeze...is definitely something I need to work on.
And after reading these posts, I do believe I am better armed verbally now with firepower that I have been in the past.
Lots of the "breathe, relax, aim & squeeeeeeeeeze." verbiage that I really need to make a nicer more socially acceptable kill. ;)
((Poor Marshall...I wonder if just once he would like a calmer and more predictable woman in his life.)))
Oh well... too late for that. (http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/222.gif)
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http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/problem_detail.asp?SDID=212:1603 send this to your anti friends.
This is hilarious! I love it. ;D
John
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Great broadcast with great points. For enthusiasts of other concerns being a "nut" is a good thing...for us it's disparaging. It's good to hear someone else, someone of stature in the gun world, speaking sense that should educate us all and be incorporated in our thinking.
There were two great things that Michael said that I liked:
First, I love the use of "wine nut" as an analogy. To people who pigeonhole us, a wine nut would seem to be the polar opposite of a gun nut, but Michael described well how both groups treat their respective hobbies the same way. And if anyone tries to argue that the two hobbies are different because "wine doesn't kill people", you point out the dangers of drunk drivers and alcoholism. Most people would accept that you don't do away with wine just because a few people abuse it. This make it much better than the "art nut" analogy.
Second, I loved the description of how much gun enthusiasts might enjoy the beauty of the actual hardware and shooting. This is *exactly* the kind of feeling that I got from my first love - cars. I think it is very easy for millions of car lovers to really appreciate this sentiment.
Thanks.
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Most of the people who give me grief about guns fall into 1 of 2 catagories in my blue collar NH world, 1) Fellow gun owners who want to yank my chain, I'll rant for them as it's in good fun. 2) Stupid people, I don't mean ignorant, which you can fix, but low IQ stupid which is forever. The rest either fear all weapons which is a medical/ psychological disorder called Hopliphobia, or are ignorant and those poor souls I try to help, either with information or an invatation to the range, with them I'm undefeated, I've had some draws, ( The person didn't have time for a trip to the range or they would think over what I said) but none have said I don't care ban them all.
When som one asks why I carry a gun I steal Tom Greshams line that it's cuz I can't carry a cop. Thats only a small part of the truth though, up here in NH the MAIN reason I carry a gun is to remind me that when have free time I can go to the range and have some FUN:)
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Also to get back on topic anything by Ruark, although he wrote more about the experiance and guns were part of that. "The Old Man And The Boy"
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One of the previously mentioned STUPID PEOPLE, told me I hate guns, my cousin's boy friend (or some distant connection) was killed by a gun. So I asked her Did it stab him? Did the Police arrest it? She looked blank, not even angry, I had to explain ( REAL LOW IQ I used little words) Things, guns , hammers etc. are not capable of independant action, No one has ever been killed by a gun only by a persons use of a gun, either on purpose or through negligence. I say " neglegent discharge" not "accidental discharge"
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Is this show still accessable? I am interested in listening to it, but I can only go back 12 pages (to ~episode 140) on the DRR site.
Thanks,
Herk
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Available in our archive:
http://www.downrange.tv/podcast/media/mb122607.mp3
All shows are available on iTunes: http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/down-range-radio/id215817745
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Thank you, sir. I'm used to only seeing the last 30 or so episodes of a show, so I didn't even look. A thousand apologies.
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Great broadcast with great points. For enthusiasts of other concerns being a "nut" is a good thing...for us it's disparaging. It's good to hear someone else, someone of stature in the gun world, speaking sense that should educate us all and be incorporated in our thinking. I've been called a gun nut by people I work with, I immediately turn it around and call them a bicycle nut, a mall-rat nut, a movie nut, etc...etc...and put them on the defensive and, just as MB said/alluded, I'm asked..."Why do you need that gun?"...I turn it around, "Why do you need the bicycle, that DVD, those walking shoes, etc. etc.",...usually they justify themselves which gives me an opportunity to condense it to..."Oh, because you like what you do and enjoy it...well I do to and I, besides having a God-given right to own a gun, have a constitutional right to have a gun. Do you have a constitutional right to a bicycle, car, mall, DVD, video game, etc?"
Basically, I put them on the defensive by being bold (sometimes the lesson "Mama" taught us, to get along, should not be applied!)...in a nice way, of course. I refuse to be a doormat because I'm a gun owner and just because someone makes fun of guns I don't flee from some idiot's ridicule...who cares what some mindless, gun-hating, idiot thinks, give it back to 'em nicely, in front of people and stick with it, don't back down....and when you get right down to it in the conversation...a lot of the people who made fun of me have guns too and they are both educated and somewhat cowered (due to our society) to admit having/liking guns. I think of being bold about my gun ownership in conversation as empowerment for cowardly gun owners....understanding that they probably won't pass on gun ownership to their children with the attitude they've learned.
Oh, and for the hard-core gun haters...I never give them a break. Whatever they dish out about "gun nut" I give them back in triplicate so they end up being the one rightfully portrayed as an intolerant idiot. Speak with liability in mind of course, pick your times, audience and words and remember, you don't have to respond to them on their time table or premise...don't be goaded into their trap....wait and be prepared! 98% of the time, after a while, they simply learn to shut-up.
Interestingly enough, many of the hard-core gun haters can be swayed over time. Seems as though most people simply want to fit in (mama did teach us to get along, right?) and will change their beliefs...the "Sheeple" principle.