The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on October 06, 2018, 07:39:50 AM
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I don't know how many of you have followed, or even been aware of, the VanDyke trial in Chicago. It started on October 20, 2014, when 17 year old McDonald was breaking windows and running wild while wielding a knife and threatening people. Officers were responding from all areas of Chicago to the scene. VanDyke and his partner also responded. Upon reaching the scene, they joined the many officers, and VanDyke shot McDonald - 16 times.
The media could not report this without leading "White Chicago cop who shot black youth 16 times."
VanDyke was charged with many offenses, and yesterday the verdict came in:
Guilty - Second Degree Murder
Guilty (all sixteen counts) - Aggravated Assault with a Firearm (one for each shot fired)
Not Guilty - Official Misconduct
Second Degree Murder carries a penalty of 4yrs to 30 yrs in prison, and is pardonable
Aggravated Assault with a Firearm carries mandatory 6yrs up to 16 years with minimum of 85% served in prison.
Speculation is that he will get 6yrs for the Aggravated Assault, run concurrent, and the Second Degree Murder will probably match the sentence in some way, with a long term of probation.
There were a lot of politics played in this situation, and even though the Judge is not political, I have some contacts to know much about him, how he operates, the type of man he is, and how he thinks, he will be fair to VanDyke, fair to law enforcement, and do what needs to be done to keep Chicago from burning to the ground.
Sadly, I now live in a gun, defense, and situational awareness ignorant zone. It is true that you can view the single dashcam video out there and say "execution." But, if you listen to the recordings of what the officers heard on the radio while responding, think of what a person with a knife can do, how quickly your safety zone can disappear, and that McDonald's only reaction to commands to drop the knife was to swing it and keep moving both toward and away from officers erratically, you can form neutral to strong feelings that the officer was justified.
There is more to share, but I don't like long posts, and this one is Looooooooong already.
Bottom line was stated by the defense attorney in his closing arguments:
"This death is a tragedy, but if Laquan McDonald had dropped the knife, he would be alive today."
Obey lawful commands of Law Enforcement!
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Guilty - Second Degree Murder
Guilty (all sixteen counts) - Aggravated Assault with a Firearm (one for each shot fired)
Not Guilty - Official Misconduct
So.... Going strictly by the verdict, Second Degree Murder, along with 16 counts of Aggravated Assault with a Firearm, does not count as "Official Misconduct" within the Chicago Police Department.
Basically what the cops are saying, is they're all OK with what he did. However the Chicago Court System is ready, willing, and able to throw the book at him, in order to prevent the city from being burned to the ground by rioting, criminal blacks. And in the process being forced to shoot a bunch more blacks 16 times each for Arson.
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It was the jury that did this!
I think what happened, from following the trial, is that he was convicted before the trial. What the trial did was expose that the Department has the proper training and procedures in place, and that he carried out the purpose of the Department, however, he personally went overboard.
I know that sounds like a strange comment and notion, but it is what I see when you have a community that wants a head on a platter, a citizenship politically charged from a decade of escalating racism in this nation, and a jury that didn't know how to find him not guilty. One thing I didn't mention is that the primary charge was First Degree Murder. The Court gave the jury the option of Second Degree and explained the difference, focusing on the option of parole for Second that isn't there for First.
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The problem was the 16 shots. One or 2 sure. Perhaps even 4 or 5 if the guy won't get out of the fight. But 16? It shows the lack of self control, along with the inability to control Adrenalin. A bit like this. (Guy exits the car at 11:30 in the video).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ0Cj83YWiA
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Police should be held to the same standards, if not higher ones, than non-LEO citizens.
In the Chicago case...if a group of armed citizens camp across the perp doing just what he was with the police..and they ordered him to drop the knife...and, again, he moved towards or away from the citizens and one of them shot him 16 times, how would the cases differ? They should not...if anything, the non-LEO would be given more leeway.
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Raise your hands. Obey commands.
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Not raising your hands and not obeying commands is not justification by themselves for the use of lethal force.
If there is no threat of harm to anyone, lethal force is not justified.
Other levels of force could be justified, and it's application may lead to a threat.
There was the case of the legally armed shopper in a big box store in Las Vegas, I think it was. His gun was spotted and store security called the police and had the store evacuated. He was identified to the police by security as he left the store. The police, 2 officers, both issued orders. One said "Freeze" the other said "Get on the ground" the shopper was not able to comply with both and was fatally shot with his gun in his holster. The police attempted to "plant" a gun but that did not work.
Again, there was NO THREAT.
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Not raising your hands and not obeying commands is not justification by themselves for the use of lethal force.
If the hand or hands contain a weapon, it is justified to use lethal force. That is a key point in the case I started this with.
An issue here in Chicago is that this case has been Monday morning quarterbacked to death, and to the point the facts are lost in the fiction that has been stated so many times it has become fact.
Something that VanDyke's attorney failed at, and it is a concern for each of us that are prepared to protect ourselves with any weapon, is the level of perceived danger this officer sensed through his training and experience. Remember, as private citizens we can only use force to protect ourselves, and case law does expand this slightly but not much. However, a law enforcement officer is allowed to protect the public as well.
This attorney allowed the prosecution to run unabated with the narrative that focused on the number of shots fired, the idea that VanDyke had no information on the situation prior to firing his gun, and that since McDonald was waving the knife only at waste level as he kept varying who he approached there was no true threat.
The media fueled lynch mob has been winning this battle, but the Judicial System is moving to be as just as possible with everyone concerned. The system is working. Not completely the way I like, but I was not in the courtroom to experience the information presented and allowed for the jury.
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I think the term "media fueled lynch mob" applies to most high profile cases. And every time it's one where a white person kills a black criminal.
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Not raising your hands and not obeying commands is not justification by themselves for the use of lethal force.
If you look at most white cop / black criminal shootings, this is the reason most of them occur. Failure to comply with police commands gets more blacks shot by law enforcement than anything else. The Michael Brown / Ferguson shooting comes to mind. And when it happens, there is usually a lot more to it than first meets the eye. It's not always a white cop shooting an, "unarmed" black.
Blacks, especially blacks in high crime inner city neighborhoods hate cops. As a direct result they don't listen to them, and refuse to comply with orders when they are stopped. Most whites don't have this problem.... Especially when they are starring down the barrel of a cops gun. This is why so many blacks get shot.
Watch any of these police shows and you will see it. They, (blacks), disobey more. They run more. They resist more. They argue more. As a result, they get shot more. You would think the blacks would be able to figure this out over time. But as we have seen over time, the blacks aren't much good at figuring anything out. Giving them time, just gives them more time to make matters worse.
The police are not going to change their tactics. So if the blacks want to get shot less, common sense dictates they had better smarten up and change theirs. But common sense has always been in short supply with blacks.
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Watch any of these police shows and you will see it. They, (blacks), disobey more. They run more. They resist more. They argue more. As a result, they get shot more. You would think the blacks would be able to figure this out over time. But as we have seen over time, the blacks aren't much good at figuring anything out. Giving them time, just gives them more time to make matters worse.
The problem is, as you note, within the black community. From an early age, the kids are taught that white cops shoot black people indiscriminately and with no repercussions, so they are unwilling to stop and drop lest they become another target. Every time some black criminal is shot, it confirms the reality of this fear. Since crime is a big employer in the black community, they have a greater opportunity to interface with LEOs. That invariably leads to more confrontations, more opportunities to resist arrest and attempt escape, and more shootings of young blacks. Yet, even with the numbers of white cop on black criminal shootings on the rise, a black youth has a greater opportunity to be shot by another black youth than by a cop. And there is a difficulty with the reasoning things out concept.
Not long ago near my home, a homeowner shot dead a young black criminal caught in the act of robbing the homeowner. The kids auntie was interviewed on the local news and proclaimed he was a good boy who didn't deserve to die just because he broke into someone's home and stole a bunch of stuff. As the interview was ending, she said, and I'm not making this up, "Where else he s'posed to get his money?"
Crusader Rabbit
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The problem is, as you note, within the black community. From an early age, the kids are taught that white cops shoot black people indiscriminately and with no repercussions, so they are unwilling to stop and drop lest they become another target. Every time some black criminal is shot, it confirms the reality of this fear. Since crime is a big employer in the black community, they have a greater opportunity to interface with LEOs. That invariably leads to more confrontations, more opportunities to resist arrest and attempt escape, and more shootings of young blacks. Yet, even with the numbers of white cop on black criminal shootings on the rise, a black youth has a greater opportunity to be shot by another black youth than by a cop. And there is a difficulty with the reasoning things out concept.
Not long ago near my home, a homeowner shot dead a young black criminal caught in the act of robbing the homeowner. The kids auntie was interviewed on the local news and proclaimed he was a good boy who didn't deserve to die just because he broke into someone's home and stole a bunch of stuff. As the interview was ending, she said, and I'm not making this up, "Where else he s'posed to get his money?"
Crusader Rabbit
Ah, another proud member of the Dindu Nuffins tribe.
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At the risk of sounding "Racist AF" as some would say, I agree with everything Bill said. CR and Peg too. I was going to point out that blacks were often called dindus for the reasons already mentioned. Even when they're shown video of them committing a crime, they dindu nuffin. Their grandmother who raised them, mother, aunt, someone, but never their father, ALWAYS says he was a good boy, he dindu niffin. I live in a city with a black majority and hardly ever see a black cop. They're so averse to LEOs from childhood that few want to be one when they grow up.
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At the risk of sounding "Racist AF" as some would say, I agree with everything Bill said. CR and Peg too. I was going to point out that blacks were often called dindus for the reasons already mentioned. Even when they're shown video of them committing a crime, they dindu nuffin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urno7un92F0
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:) That could easily have happened in a single day.
P.S. I ain't never done did nothin' is a triple negative. In other words, they did do something.
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Shoot, it ain't just Blacks down south..... I have a b-i-l that's as white as a saltine cracker and he's a proud member, just ask him. He can steal from you with you in the room with him, but when confronted he "din' do nuffin."
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I trust the system too f..k things up. More often then not, I am right
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"Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for." - Will Rogers