The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on July 07, 2017, 03:40:08 PM
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We all know that .357 has been used to take every game animal in North America, including Grizzly bear..Will 45 Colt do the same ?
What semi auto calibers, besides 10 mm are practical for hunting larger game ? Will 45ACPor 9mm cut it for larger game ?
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We all know that .357 has been used to take every game animal in North America, including Grizzly bear..Will 45 Colt do the same ?
Possibly, though I'd think the 460SW would be better.
I feel sure someone has done it with both the .44mag and the .41mag, though.
What semi auto calibers, besides 10 mm are practical for hunting larger game ? Will 45ACPor 9mm cut it for larger game ?
.45ACP and 9mm.... no.
Well, there's the .41 and .50 A&Es. Then the .44Mag is available in a Desert Eagle so does that count as semi-auto?
Are you sure back in the 70's-80's somebody didn't do this with an AutoMag? Came in both .357 and .44
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.357 Mag Coonan, 1911 type semi auto,Also the .44 Automag, were sold as hunting guns.
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I'm thinking more along the lines of a practical "do it all " pistol self defense, concealed carry as well as hunting.
1) Common caliber, no proprietary crap like .50GI
2) reasonably concealable.
seems like the only choices are .357, or 10mm.
I looked on Wiki but can't find the reference. I believe it was D.B. Wesson in 1936 (before he took over the company) took every game animal in NA with one including moose.
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I've been working toward a 4" .357 wheel gun and a lever gun in .357 either in a carbine or full length rifle over the last few years. Some of my early post reflect this.
I know someone will differ but there's no reason, thus far, that would sway my opinion.
Money is the issue at this point. I'll get there and worry no more.. I feel comfy with that caliber in any state in the union against critters I need to eat or critters I need to protect myself from. I doubt very much I'll ever live more that a few hundred miles from where I'm sitting so black bear, white tail deer, a rabid raccoon or fisher are easily dispatched. There have been some mountain lion sign in New England but there ain't much you can do if you're the lunch o the day for a puma without a scattergun..
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Tom... is this a theoretical question, or practical consideration?.... what type game?
I started my competition games shooting metallic silhouette... hot .357mag loads(200 grain 35 caliber rifle bullets for the rams) in a Merrill...a .44mag Super Black Hawk for revolver with all the H110 you can fit in the case, and downloaded for bowling pins... hand loading gives you a lot of options... a friend hunts elk in Colorado with a .460Roland (hard cast) for predator protection in a 1911...
I don't hunt, but I think a hard cast .44 mag or .454 Casull (with .45 Colt for carry) would be a working option... I don't think thin skinned bipods would need that much... I'm content with a 9mm and good ammunition... YMMV
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I'm thinking more along the lines of a practical "do it all " pistol self defense, concealed carry as well as hunting.
1) Common caliber, no proprietary crap like .50GI
2) reasonably concealable.
Now more than ever I'm thinking the S&W 460V 5" would be the ticket. Could use 45LC for SD and .460SW for hunting. Okay if you don't want the .460S&W because it's proprietary, then you could hype up the .45LC loads somewhat.
More reasonable would be 4" 629 in .44Mag or a 625 Mountain in .45LC.
And like Les my earlier competition was IHMSA. But I went the .357Max route standing on two legs, putting down Rams at 200m. It was a blast <pun>
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In "conventional" calibers I'd go 10MM. Not to dis the 9MM or the 45, but Col. Cooper did prefer it.
If not that...a little more conventional. Go with a 10MM "short"...the 40 S&W.
Maybe the 40 for a do it all? I really prefer the 10MM but getting the ammo is not always easy...especially the full power stuff and not the loaded down ammo that mimics the 40. DoubleTap ammo is a good source for 10MM.
I have a Kimber 1911 in 10MM and love it....heavy as a brick bat to carry though. So...if weight is an issue go with Tupperware and a 40 (does Glock still make a 10MM)?
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Tom... is this a theoretical question, or practical consideration?.... what type game?
I started my competition games shooting metallic silhouette... hot .357mag loads(200 grain 35 caliber rifle bullets for the rams) in a Merrill...a .44mag Super Black Hawk for revolver with all the H110 you can fit in the case, and downloaded for bowling pins... hand loading gives you a lot of options... a friend hunts elk in Colorado with a .460Roland (hard cast) for predator protection in a 1911...
I don't hunt, but I think a hard cast .44 mag or .454 Casull (with .45 Colt for carry) would be a working option... I don't think thin skinned bipods would need that much... I'm content with a 9mm and good ammunition... YMMV
Theoretical at this point, but I might act on it in the unforeseeable future .
I don't hunt either, but we have bear and moose here who can show up at odd times so it kind of falls into self defense.
Tim, I agree on .357 but want to go semi auto if possible, it is however my solid second choice.
Rastus, 10mm was what got me thinking about the subject, as for 40 would you consider it ETHICAL to take say, a deer, with .40 ?
My objection to 45Colt, and 44 mag are the size makes them fairly impractical for EDC.
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A 10MM is essentially a 357 Mag. Ethical....that's pretty much a grey area as far as I can see. Used to be that a 30-30 was all you needed up through mule deer. Now to "be ethical" some people tout 7MM mags and ultra mags along with 300 win mags.
I dunno...either the 357 or 10 MM is about 1/3 the energy of a 30-30. But I also know when I was growing up most of the deer around the house were taken with a 22LR with head shots which was unethical.
I think a hot 40 would do alright and put you up near 650 ft-lbs of energy whereas you'd be stretching 775 or so with a hot 10MM. A hot 357 around 850 ft-lbs.
This based on a 6" barrel from: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html)
If you look at the ballistics chart towards top center you'll see a link for the energy graphs.
However as I look the Glock in 10MM comes at best with a 4.6" barrel and the Kimber Eclipse in 10MM is a 5" barrel. So it might come down to available barrel length and another caliber.
The Automag in 6.5" barrel 44 mag is probably the "ethical" choice at 3-1/2 pounds.
I'm thinking do it all is a tall order if you want real knockdown power. Maybe just a (OK, I know...ouch) a TC pistol for hunting and keep your semi-auto for carry for defense and not hunting?
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Once you get past the dumb regulations that govern hunting (For fun watch a YouTube by Ted Nugent on archery draw weight), it is just like self defense choice: Energy and bullet performance at given distance on given animal.
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Speaking of Ted Nugent,He carries and hunts with a 10mm,He has taken deer and wild hogs with it,I would think if it takes down a hog, it will do anything else you need it to do.
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Glock G-40 is designed for hunting, 6inch barrel and reddot sight.
I got nothing against TC Contender or Encore, hell, I used to make them.
Mike regulations don't enter into this, it's not about getting a license and what not. Just doing what you have to do. Dealing with things that pop up in life.
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I've taken deer with a .41 Magnum. They dropped really fast. Never shoulda sold that gun. I can hunt deer here with the .45 ACP. 5 inch barrel minimum. If I were to do so, I would use a hot (+P range) hand loaded hard cast bullet in the 230 grain range. The Ruger RedHawk is not easy to conceal, but, a 1911 just seems to disappear on my ever expanding waistline. There are multiple options for 10mm on the 1911 platform.
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Mike regulations don't enter into this, it's not about getting a license and what not. Just doing what you have to do. Dealing with things that pop up in life.
I thought this was about hunting with a handgun. If not, then it is still all about the basics of self defense choices.
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Too small for deer, to large to carry concealed. What am I to do??? :-\
(http://i.imgur.com/GrZEKn5.jpg)
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Too small for deer, to large to carry concealed. What am I to do??? :-\
(http://i.imgur.com/GrZEKn5.jpg)
Auction, then buy a fish and a fowl since this is neither. LOL. Or trade for a TC Encore and 2 barrels. .22LR and 14 inch 45/70 , small enough for squirrels and big enough for elephant .
I thought this was about hunting with a handgun. If not, then it is still all about the basics of self defense choices.
My thinking is that while a pistol suitable for human attackers isn't enough for animals, the reverse is not true. So that is my baseline for a "do it all" pistol.
Looks like it's down to 10mm and 357 which is OK .
Since I grew up shooting 357 my next project is to try out a 10 mm.
A thought just crossed my mind, If a 45 cal 230 FMJ wallops a 200 lb person so effectively, Why has only one comment suggested it for 200 pound deer ? Are there things I'm not taking into account ? Maybe greater stability of 4 hooves versus 2 feet, more points of contact spreading the shock, denser bone ?
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A thought just crossed my mind, If a 45 cal 230 FMJ wallops a 200 lb person so effectively, Why has only one comment suggested it for 200 pound deer ? Are there things I'm not taking into account ? Maybe greater stability of 4 hooves versus 2 feet, more points of contact spreading the shock, denser bone ?
Off the cuff, a human, shot in the chest by a .45ACP 'knows' (by conditioning from movies and print) that they are dead. A deer not so much. A deer will run for that 50 to 100 yards before their lungs give out.
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Off the cuff, a human, shot in the chest by a .45ACP 'knows' (by conditioning from movies and print) that they are dead. A deer not so much. A deer will run for that 50 to 100 yards before their lungs give out.
I had thought of "tenacity", but didn't mention it to see if any one else would.
Most of the African writer's mention that unless you get a one shot kill most of the game animals take a butt load of killing. Capstick mentions animals running a couple hundred yards with heart and lungs both destroyed.
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My thought on the 45 is that if you stretch the range the 10MM speed takes over. So, I went to http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/ (http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/) and compared a 1075 fps Corbon in 45 ACP to a 1300 fps round in 10MM. Both zeroed at 100 yards the 10MM drops 9.5"+/- at 150 yards and the 45 ACP drops 13.5" at 150 yards.
Not significant. My thinking was that it was. Oh well.
Good suggestion on the XP-100. It only took me 50 years of waiting to get one....I think I'll run with it blindly trying to find something to shoot with it for a few more months... ;D
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Supposed to be death on bull's eyes.
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200 yard squirrel pistol.
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I thought that was a scope, turns out it's a magnifying glass LOL
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Not really a scope. It's a man-machine interface. Precision dependent upon human factor... ::)
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Too small for deer, to large to carry concealed. What am I to do??? :-\
(http://i.imgur.com/GrZEKn5.jpg)
Send it to me..... it matches my Nylon 66. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Send it to me..... it matches my Nylon 66. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I should have known better shouldn't I?
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Send it to me..... it matches my Nylon 66. ;D ;D ;D ;D
If I remember right the majority of Nylon 66' came in brown with the smaller percentage being black
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.221 Fireball, for when a squirrel is in the bird feeder, at your brother's house, in the next county.
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If I remember right the majority of Nylon 66' came in brown with the smaller percentage being black
Yes.
The most prevalent were the Mohawk Browns. There was also a Black Diamond and a Seneca Green, which were both in lesser production numbers. There were also some rarer special editions and such.
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For a semi-auto hunting handgun you can get a .460 Rowland conversion for a 1911, Glock, XD, XDm, or M&P. When you want less power/recoil switch back to .45 ACP. Also if you can't find .460 Rowland ammo you'll still be able to find .45 ACP nearly anywhere that sells ammo. https://www.460rowland.com/product-category/conversions/
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....What semi auto calibers, besides 10 mm are practical for hunting larger game ?....
How about this? It's also chambered in semi auto's, (.308).
(http://i.imgur.com/RRaoGpW.jpg?2)
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I liked my T/C in .357MaX. Achieve 30/30 ballistics using H110 powder. But it was an odd duck of calibers, so I sold it off. If I where to get another T/C it would probably be a rifle caliber. But probably something along the lines of a .300Blk
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just a cautionary note on older T/C Contenders you might find that may chamber a .308 (7.62x51)... some of the early shooters down here re chambered 30/30 TCs to .308....IIRC the Contender frame was investment cast, and probably not up to a factory .308 round
my Merril in 30/30 was not too bad, likewise the 30 Herrett and 357 Herrett.... in .30 Merril, a handful
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When my friend retired his old motorcycle helmet we ventilated it with my .357 Maximum Contender. It blasted right through it like a paper target. I still have a few hundred(?) rounds of ammo for it in at least a half dozen different loads but haven't shot it in a few years. I always though a .357 Magnum Winchester Trapper model re-chambered for it would be awesome. A co-worker thought a H&R single-shot would be a good one to re-chamber too.
Les is right about the Contender frame being investment cast. The Encore is too but has an extra pound or so of steel where it needs to be to strengthen it. Re-chambering a Contender to .308 is just asking for trouble.
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Investment casting has improved leaps and bounds since the 70's. Ruger has led the way in a lot of it. They investment cast most everything. Including their frames for the Super Redhawk, which comes in .454 Casull. Their bolt action Model 77, as well as the falling block action for their #1 rifle are all investment cast. Both are 2 of the strongest actions on the market.
But you guys are right about rechambering the older model Contenders, to calibers the Encore Pro Hunter comes chambered for right from the factory. 2 different animals. The IHMSA was instrumental in getting these beefier models of the Contender built. Those guys pushed the limit with everything back in the 70's, when that sport was starting out. Several of the early guns had their frames stretched, or were outright blown up because of rechambering to rounds that were never designed around the early Contender frame.
I remember back in the late 70's when Thompson released the Super 14 Contender in .30-30. I knew a guy who had one of the first one's. That kind of power in a handgun was unheard of back then, from a factory chambered pistol. It wasn't long after that Remington came out with different versions of the XP-100 in bigger calibers, and it was game on in the single shot handgun world. Today the Encore Pro Hunter comes right from the box chambered in both .308 and .30-06. And from what I've been reading they hold up unbelievably well. I can't wait to get mine out and crank it up!
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So in this thread Tom started he said he wanted semi-auto. So last week when I was at the range tweaking the scope on that XP-100 and the new 17 Fireball discussion came up at lunch after shooting about the 45 Super. It's essentially heavily beefed up 45 ACP brass that I had never heard of before.
A 45 conversion to a 1911 yields a handgun that shoots a 230 grain bullet at 1,100 FPS with pressuresa round 28,000. The cartridges are stamped 45 Super...so don't mix ACP with them when reloading. Brass is supposed to be available from a couple of sources...Starline being one of them.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm (http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm)
This is pretty much all I know about this round. A heavier spring, guide rod modification, etc. will supposedly put you in business on a 45 Super.
Outside of the semi-auto world I have not heard anyone mention J. D. Jones's cartridges like the 358 JDJ or 375 JDJ from a .444 Marlin parent.
Who developed the Whisper?
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Who developed the Whisper?
I want to say it was J.D. Jones. The .300 Whisper is pretty close to the .300 Blackout. In fact, I think they can be fired interchangeably in the same gun. (Not 100% certain on this).
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For a semi-auto hunting handgun you can get a .460 Rowland conversion for a 1911, Glock, XD, XDm, or M&P. When you want less power/recoil switch back to .45 ACP. Also if you can't find .460 Rowland ammo you'll still be able to find .45 ACP nearly anywhere that sells ammo. https://www.460rowland.com/product-category/conversions/
I thought this had gone away. I remember when he had a show on the outdoor channels - An infomercial that was fun to watch ... for awhile. Old time cottage business: A guy has an interest and some skills, he works it, and he has a business and we have a product to play with.
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The .45 Super is based on the old .451 Detonics Magnum case, hence the thicker case walls. The maximum pressure is 28,000 PSI compared to the .45 APC's 21,000 PSI SAAMI maximum. I believe ammo is still available. Johnny Ray Rowland took the uploaded .45 ACP idea to the extreme with the .460 Rowland. The brass is about 1/16" longer to help avoid mix-ups and the SAAMI maximum pressure is 40,000 PSI. The ballistics from a 5" barrel are better than some .44 Magnum 240 grain factory loads. It takes higher pressures to get there because of the smaller case. Also the .44 Magnum can be loaded with 300 grain and larger bullets with energy levels that the .460 can't even approach.
The T/C Encore has an available 15" barrel chambered in .460 S&W Magnum. The performance should be quite a bit better than the S&W 460XVR revolver with an 8.38" barrel.
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I'll guess we will never know what Tom got since he posted his last post earlier today.
I'm thinking he ended up with a 45 ACP.
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I want to say it was J.D. Jones. The .300 Whisper is pretty close to the .300 Blackout. In fact, I think they can be fired interchangeably in the same gun. (Not 100% certain on this).
You would be correct.
Based on the .221 Fireball, whereas the .300 BLK is off the .223.
Hornady at one time said ammo would cross over...... ymmv
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/11/5/shades-of-gray-300-whisper-300-aac-blackout/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/foghorn/ask-foghorn-is-it-safe-to-fire-300-whisper-in-a-300-aac-blackout-firearm/
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Wikipedia is a bit confusing when you look up the .300 Whisper and .300 AKC Blackout. Where it lists the parent case they both say .221 Fireball/.223 Remington and the parent case for both of those is listed as the .222 Remington. It sounds to me like you should be able to form cases for either out of the .221, .222, and .223, but I don't know if that's right. Supposedly Hornady makes their .300 Whisper ammo within .300 BLK specs so any firearm chambered for the .300 BLK can shoot their .300 Whisper ammunition too.
One thing's for sure, you don't want to accidentally fire either one in a .223/5.56mm. A couple of guys have blown up their guns doing that.