The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Shotguns => Topic started by: Dakotaranger on January 15, 2011, 01:40:03 AM
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I'm thinking of turning an 870 into a tac shotgun. What I wan the end result to be is a Knox spec-ops stock, a weaver rail for a red dot, thinking a picateny (tired and never said I could spell) forend, 18 inch barrel, possibly with a breeching hold off.
Questions I have are Brownells has a weaver rail system that is a polymer that will screw into existing holes. Do I want to go that way or tap holes into the receiver?
What's the minium length w/o the stamp? I thought it was 16 but the Scheels guys are telling me 18.
Once I make the conversion over to a tac shotgun is it feasible to change it back and forth for pheasent season
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18 in min, but you would be wise to go atleast 18.5"
3 reasons for this.
1 if you F up cutting the barrel, you can try again.( its not as easy as you think)
2 when they measure it, it means they can F up by 1/2"
3 if you ever ding the end of the barrel, you can fix it.
now remember it still needs to be 26" over all. other wise it does not matter what the barrel length is, you still need a stamp.
a rilfe is 16"
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Frankly, I'd just go to the classifieds and buy kilo's. He's got a very, very sweet mossy for under $300. Ghost rings, rails, light, the whole nine yards. I paid $235 for a maverick It was a fair price, but a whole lot less gun than what kilo has. By the time you buy the stock, rail, barrel etc, you're in well over $200 and the ghost rings alone are like $75 if you can find them. check it out. Just my .02.
FQ13
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TAB is right about the 18.5 inch barrel, but for the wrong reason.
While what he posted is true,(minimum length for RIFLES is 16 inch, shotguns are 18 ) a more practical reason is that you can buy an 18.5 inch after market barrel off the shelf.
I did not bother with all the crap. I paid about $300 for a Mossy 500 that already had the 18.5 inch barrel, (they offer a "Home and field combo for around $500 includes a longer barrel for bird hunting ) replaced the bead with a fiber optic bead, and installed a Knoxx recoil absorbing adjustable (M-4 style) stock, added sling swivels and it's done.
Changing over to the longer barrel would take about a minute . If you want to get real fancy, you can add a forward grip with a flash light. Optic ? Dude, it's an 18.5 inch shot gun, do you want some thing that works, or that will impress the mall ninja's ? ::)
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+ 1 on tombogan's advice....only thing I might differ with is to exchange the fiber-optic sight with a XO Tritum Big-Dot sight...
http://www.xssights.com/store/shotgun.html (http://www.xssights.com/store/shotgun.html)
Simple shotgun setups are the best...... ;D
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TAB is right about the 18.5 inch barrel, but for the wrong reason.
While what he posted is true,(minimum length for RIFLES is 16 inch, shotguns are 18 ) a more practical reason is that you can buy an 18.5 inch after market barrel off the shelf.
I did not bother with all the crap. I paid about $300 for a Mossy 500 that already had the 18.5 inch barrel, (they offer a "Home and field combo for around $500 includes a longer barrel for bird hunting ) replaced the bead with a fiber optic bead, and installed a Knoxx recoil absorbing adjustable (M-4 style) stock, added sling swivels and it's done.
Changing over to the longer barrel would take about a minute . If you want to get real fancy, you can add a forward grip with a flash light. Optic ? Dude, it's an 18.5 inch shot gun, do you want some thing that works, or that will impress the mall ninja's ? ::)
Was thinking a red dot reflex sight. The primary use would be a camp shotgun for when we do the Maah Daah Hey trail this summer, but a fiber optic probably would be more than suffcient
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Was thinking a red dot reflex sight. The primary use would be a camp shotgun for when we do the Maah Daah Hey trail this summer, but a fiber optic probably would be more than suffcient
In that case you will definitely be better off with the FO bead since you will want to minimize the possibility for it to snag on things when you really really need it, A bead is much smaller than any type of red dot, so less likely to snag on stuff.
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In that case you will definitely be better off with the FO bead since you will want to minimize the possibility for it to snag on things when you really really need it, A bead is much smaller than any type of red dot, so less likely to snag on stuff.
That's why I was asking for advice. The only other reason was thinking the rails was for a turkey gun I've seen guys use a red dot, but I haven't ever really had the chance to go after turkey so it may not be as necessary as I was thinking.
The one thing that I am positvie (other than the adjustable knox stock because my two buddies are both much taller than I am) is a single point sling mount, especially since we are all about 40 and the outhouse is a long ways away.
I'm also trying to find Kilos shotgun he has for sale and I'm not having much luck
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Here's the link
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=14798.0
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Thanks. Does anyone have any experience with the Knoxx Stocks? Are they worth the money?
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Thanks. Does anyone have any experience with the Knoxx Stocks? Are they worth the money?
Yes..Knoxx are fantastic..... P.S., Give EAA SARPASP 12g a look, MSRP, $379, all steel construction, comes with rails and ghost ring sights.
http://www.eaacorp.com/
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/SAR_PA_SPL.jpg)
870's are always "tweakable" (I tweaked mine), a Knoxx is well worth it, barrels can be swapped for turkey season, and a 12g is a good thing.
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http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search_catalog_command.cmd?fromProductSearch=true&item1=xm-22-4733
I haven't had a chance to try it yet but it went on easily and fits me much better .
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Did you need the special tool?
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No, it requires a long Allen wrench which was included with the stock. If you change the Fore end you WILL need a fore end wrench as they use a recessed castle style nut. I just kept the wood fore end as I preferred the shape.
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I did an 870 about 10 years ago, speed feed pistol grip fixed stock,scatter gun tecnologies magazine extension and extrapower speing with hi viz follower, side saddle shall carrier. I had a smith drill and tap the recievier and install a weaver rail/mount on which I installed a BSA ans Tasco reddot. I used the standard 20 inch smooth Remingtion slug barrel with iron sights.
The red dots worked welll but the aluminum base deformed where the redot clamped on. It loooked like the red dot unit was trying to come off under recoil. I would suggest a steel rail. I currently use just the iron sights since the red dots I HAD were of the in expensive variety they would not illuminate when deer hunting once temperatures got to be 20 degreeF or less.
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18 in min, but you would be wise to go atleast 18.5"
TAB is correct. Another thing to remember is the "correct" way to measure the barrel. I say "correct" because it is the way the ATF measures them, and if you try arguing the point with them you will lose. They measure shotgun barrel length from the bolt face with the action closed, to the end of the muzzle. Now, on a O/U there is little to no gap from the back end of the barrel to the breech face of the receiver. But on a pump or a semi auto this can vary because of where and how the bolt locks up. The most common method of accomplishing this is to drop a length of wooden dowel rod, or else a cleaning rod down the barrel and mark the end. When doing this add into account "The Weaver Factor" which is usually considered to be an extra 1/8". Better safe than sorry. The reason it is called that is because it was reported the incident that triggered the whole Randy Weaver standoff with the FBI at Ruby Ridge, was the result of him failing to appear in court for being accused of owning a shotgun with a barrel that was 1/8" inch too short. Bill T.
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Plus if its your first cut you may wanna seek help I fudged my first one up. So I went to a farm aucton bought 870 for 125 and bought a barrel and stock and went that route.
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Path, here is picture of my rig and I like it, I will go into detail as we go.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1342.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1341.jpg)
870 with 20" slug barrel and rifle sights that have been replaced with meprolight tritium, did not think I would like them, I like them a lot, easy to pick up at night and low light, good old buckhorn sight picture that we all grew up on, adjustable so your dead on.
surefire fore end with led bulb, expensive but I think a light on a shot gun makes good sense.
no name collapsible stock, cost 60 bucks and I picked up a Sig 556 adjustable part for 30 bucks that has a good rubber butt pad and battery storage, also a sling mount, not single point but it is there. I did have to file the part that attaches to the receiver until I got the correct angle that aligns my eye straight down the barrel and sights. Recoil is not near as bad as expected.
All metal side saddle 4 rds, Scattergun Tech 7rd extension, all steel, this is important in a SD durable unit, and has the sling mount built in, hearing good things about Nordic extensions but don't have one, Vang over size safety, cheap and work like a champ.
Now 18.5 vs 20" barrels, not much difference in performance, with an 18.5" barrel, a good 8 rd extension will extend beyond the barrel, and there is your extra round and stand off, 2 for 1, With the collapsible stock, could be used for bird hunting and you might get looked at funny, but if you did as I did and fit it to your line of sight and shoulder, it will work and will take you a couple minutes to switch out barrels, and remove extended magazine tubes. I would not hesitate and will not hesitate to make this my grab and go shotgun, although I have several others to choose from. Hope this helps.
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Couple of notes on the 870.
If it is a current Express model, you will need to drill out and clean up two dimples pressed into the front end of the magazine tube to allow the use of an extension. The dimples prevent the follower from moving past the end of the tube.
Also, be careful about the side saddle shell holder. The stock forearm might extend to far back to allow it's use. Replace the forearm. I'd get M25's Surefilre if you can afford it.
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Do you own an 870? If so, listen to the board. If not, I would really, really, really reccomend a Mossy. The reason for that is the top mounted safety. Personally, its where a safety belongs and its ambi (I'm a lefty, so I'm biased, but even shooting RH with gloves its a whole lot easier). Plus, they are cheaper and I see little loss in quality. If its good enough for the USMC, its good enough for me. Plus, as Tom noted, you can get a two barrel set, SD and birds for $500. The 590 is my shotty of choice. I stupidly sold one a decade or so ago, but those ghost rings would put a slug in a dessert plate at 30 yards (I never shot further as I bought it for bear defense on an Alaska trip). Anyway, good luck.
FQ13
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Do you own an 870? If so, listen to the board. If not, I would really, really, really reccomend a Mossy. The reason for that is the top mounted safety. Personally, its where a safety belongs and its ambi (I'm a lefty, so I'm biased, but even shooting RH with gloves its a whole lot easier). Plus, they are cheaper and I see little loss in quality. If its good enough for the USMC, its good enough for me. Plus, as Tom noted, you can get a two barrel set, SD and birds for $500. The 590 is my shotty of choice. I stupidly sold one a decade or so ago, but those ghost rings would put a slug in a dessert plate at 30 yards (I never shot further as I bought it for bear defense on an Alaska trip). Anyway, good luck.
FQ13
Have had a Mossberg 590 and the 870.
I prefer the 870 with the Knoxx stock, and probably if any pistol grip stock is used.
The pistol grip stock makes the tang safety cumbersome to use and it blocks the slide unlock button making it difficult to cycle rounds out of the magazine on the 590.
I also found the action on the 590 to be rough compared to the 870. No hindrance to operation or reliability, just much rougher.
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I own both a Mossberg 500 and a Remington 870. If I had to choose between the two I would choose the 870 because it's receiver is made from steel as opposed to Aluminum. I like steel in weapons. With that said, here's the actual differences between the Remington 870 Wingmaster, the Police, and the Express guns:
The Express is Remington's "budget" gun, made to compete with the cheaper to make Winchester and Mossberg guns.
The Wingmaster is Remington "Cadillac" top-of-the-line sporting gun.
The Police is a Wingmaster with a dull finish and is a much more carefully inspected and built gun.
How Remington lowered the Express price was to reduce hand labor to a bare minimum, and to eliminate much of the polishing and de-burring the better quality Wingmaster and Police guns get.
The Express is basically the same milled steel receiver and heavy-duty internals gun the better 870's are, just in a rougher, less well finished form with plastic and MIM parts.
The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style plastic magazine retention system, EXCEPT on the extended magazine version, which does NOT have the dimples.
A rougher finish inside and outside, with machine marks and some burrs left.
A rougher, bead blasted blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end and pressed-in checkering.
The Defense version has 18", Cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.
Has the locking safety button.
The Wingmaster has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Wingmaster gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A fine, commercial polished blue finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
A chrome plated bolt.
Walnut stocks with the famous "Bowling Pin" finish in gloss or satin and better checkering.
Wide choices in barrel lengths and choke options.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Wingmaster is the full top-of-the-line commercial Remington pump gun, and is priced accordingly.
The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Police gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
The Remington “R3” super recoil pad that reduced felt recoil by 30%.
Choices in different stocks, including Speedfeed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Police options like magazine extenders, forearms with built-in lights, and sling swivels.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Express is a "bottom of the line" budget gun, the Wingmaster is a "top of the line" sporting gun, the Police is the top-of-the-line in defense guns.
The 870's are generally considered to be the finest quality pump gun made. Bill T.
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The Knoxx stock may block the slide release on the Mossy 590, it doesn't get in the way on the 500.
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Do you own an 870? If so, listen to the board. If not, I would really, really, really reccomend a Mossy. The reason for that is the top mounted safety. Personally, its where a safety belongs and its ambi (I'm a lefty, so I'm biased, but even shooting RH with gloves its a whole lot easier). Plus, they are cheaper and I see little loss in quality. If its good enough for the USMC, its good enough for me. Plus, as Tom noted, you can get a two barrel set, SD and birds for $500. The 590 is my shotty of choice. I stupidly sold one a decade or so ago, but those ghost rings would put a slug in a dessert plate at 30 yards (I never shot further as I bought it for bear defense on an Alaska trip). Anyway, good luck.
FQ13
I do have an 870 so I thought about going ahead and just getting the stock and barrel switch it out if I were going out for pheasent. I do have a semi-auto but I I don't see that switching out the stock is as feasible because it's a Stoeger because there doesn't seam to be the aftermarket parts
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My only experience is with the Knoxx , it does fit the Rem 870.
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speaking of knoxx I just ran across this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/26_643/products_id/38890
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speaking of knoxx I just ran across this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/26_643/products_id/38890
Does that include the actual stock, or just the cheek piece and shell holder. I paid almost double that for just the stock.
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Does that include the actual stock, or just the cheek piece and shell holder. I paid almost double that for just the stock.
No, that's just the cheek piece and shell holder, the stock is another $91
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I got mine for around $60 at Sportsman's guide, Cabela's is about the same.
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I wish it included stock cause I would buy few 100 to resell lol
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Something to consider with a pistol grip stock of any kind is that they hinder the removal of the trigger group nad bolt carrier for cleaning.
I love my Winchester with an ATI A2 style except to remove the trigger group and bolt for cleaning I have to pull the screws out of the butt plate and take the whole stock loose so I can pivit it out of the way to drop the trigger group.
The innerards do not get cleaned as often as they should because of this.
Note the post on top of page 2 with the picture.
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Something to consider with a pistol grip stock of any kind is that they hinder the removal of the trigger group nad bolt carrier for cleaning.
I love my Winchester with an ATI A2 style except to remove the trigger group and bolt for cleaning I have to pull the screws out of the butt plate and take the whole stock loose so I can pivit it out of the way to drop the trigger group.
The innerards do not get cleaned as often as they should because of this.
Note the post on top of page 2 with the picture.
I've never removed the trigger group in any of my shotguns for cleaning. This includes my Trap guns that have had thousands of rounds fired through them. What I do instead is wet clean them with clean Kerosene and a brush, followed by blowing them out with compressed air. They come out as spotless as they were when new. By flooding the trigger group with Kerosene it won't attack the finish of the metal, or the stock. After blowing dry there is no solvent left anywhere. If you can't find Kerosene, or don't like the smell, you can use WD-40. It won't form any residue if you blow it out.
I have used this on pumps, semi autos, as well as O/U's. I also clean many of my semi auto .22's this way, including all of my Ruger Mark autos. It's faster, and you're not forced to deal with difficult disassembly and reassembly procedures that can be a royal PITA. If you have the room, you can get one of those little 2 gallon bench top automotive parts washers from Harbor Freight and fill it with Kerosene or WD-40. They're not expensive and really work well for this type of thing. They also have several models of low cost, small air compressors that are perfect for gun cleaning.
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I recently took the training wheels off my bicycle... hooked a curb at a shallow angle and fell on my left shoulder...as I've been working the crunchies out of my shoulder, I find that I'm not able to lift a shotgun with a full magazine tube... check with your significant other to see it that is a problem in the household... you may want to download or possibly remove the tube if it's difficult for your SO or responsible kids to handle...my SureFire Scout lite is on my tube, but am thinking about taking the extended tube off... have just downloaded it, but still is difficult to handle...it's a bitch getting old...
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I recently took the training wheels off my bicycle... hooked a curb at a shallow angle and fell on my left shoulder...as I've been working the crunchies out of my shoulder, I find that I'm not able to lift a shotgun with a full magazine tube... check with your significant other to see it that is a problem in the household... you may want to download or possibly remove the tube if it's difficult for your SO or responsible kids to handle...my SureFire Scout lite is on my tube, but am thinking about taking the extended tube off... have just downloaded it, but still is difficult to handle...it's a bitch getting old...
Damn new fangled machines! Not safe at any speed. Sorry about the bang up. But, here is where I would (if we were living in a sane world) reccomend an AR for HD. If the weight and recoil is an issue with a shot gun you can fix that withan AR. Its lighter, even with a full mag, easier to operate than a pump and the recoil is barely felt. Plus if you you use Hornady 55 gr HP TAP, its less likely to over penetrate than '00 buck. Plus, if at first you don't suceed, try and try again. ;D
Six months ago you could have picked one up for seven hundred bucks,. Now.....? Still, if you want a defensive long gun that is forgiving of physical limitations, I'd reccomend one.Good luck.
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fightingquaker13... I actually have one of those things... mostly it resides in the gun safe and gets to play on the weekends... actually, it would be my go to if I have time to get the safe open... regards....
old guy pic from Ft Benning Sniper Range... rifle/shotgun stage FB3G 2007
(http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/LesSnyder/DSC00354.jpg)