The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: rj112275 on September 27, 2012, 09:05:12 PM
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Okay, it's time to ask some dumb questions...
Is it easier to buy a SBR up front, or buy the AR pistol and convert to SBR?
What's the best (and least expensive) way to get a SBR into my gun collection? By the way, I was thinking of a Sig 556 pistol and converting it.
Suggestions? Flames?
Thanks
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Well, the $200 gubmint "permission slip"....aka: their-slice-o-the-pie will be the same either way, I expect.
Other than that, it boils down to cost of the gun you want.
If you already have a rifle such as an AR, then the tax + the cost of the barrel and possibly a gas block would seem to be cheaper than buying a complete gun such as the Sig.
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I'd be starting from scratch. I had a plane jane AR a few years back, but needed the funds for the house. Starting over again, but hopefully something shorter.
At the moment, I'm thinking the AR pistol is cheaper to buy... pay the tax stamp... add a rifle stock and parts, engrave the receiver...
Is that about it?
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Might be, since you don't have a gun to convert, because you can go ahead and buy the pistol and be shooting it while waiting for the red tape paperwork to go through and then just do the engraving and buy the stock after the paperwork is done.
I guess it all depends on the purchase price of the AR pistol (and then the stock parts) compared to the price of a rifle (and then a short barrel).
There may also be some info in the threads on this board (if you have not perused it yet):
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?board=39.0
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Go the other way around, build your lower since that requires no special approval and it will give you something to do while you wait for the paper work to go through on your SBR upper.
If you own the pistol but no rifle ATF can send you to jail for even buying the stock parts.
On the other hand your dealer can help you with getting the paperwork and and he will not be on you about paying off or picking up your upper until you have your tax stamp.
What ever you do, do not take possession of the SBR upper until you have your tax stamp in hand.
That is the part that can send you to prison.
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Be very careful, once you own a pistol AR and a rifle stock, you are potentially in trouble. The ATF are not our friends, and never have been for four administrations. Personally, I don't get the attraction on an SBR (aside from the cool factor). I'd rather spend my $$$ on on a suppressor, but its your call. Just understand that its more of a minefield legally going from pistol to rifle than the reverse. Most folks choose to use a trust, rather than registering the guns in their own names. Basfu can help you here, PM him. Or try the AR15armory.com, or even the Ar15 forum.com, though you get a lot of idiots there. My advice is to take it slow and steady and make sure your I's are dotted and your T's crossed. You want to do it right. I wish you well with the build, just don't make an assumption that will land you in the hoosegow.
FQ13
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Micheal Bane is going through the process now as well and if he sees this thread and has the time he will be able to add detailed knowledge.
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I do have a 22 suppressor and its a blast. A friend of mine has a SBR with a suppressor. Very cool, and yes... An expensive toy. ;)
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I'd get the pistol and enjoy it without the parts. Then when I was able to SBR and get the parts I'd send off my paperwork and sit on my cash until the paperwork came in. I would not have any parts until after the SBR was approved and paperwork was in my hand.
A 10-1/2 inch barrel length SBR seems to be popular with the warfighters who need such a thing to do their job.
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I'd get the Sig with the 16" barrel and get the stamp paper work going. That way you have an AR and once the paper work is done its as easy as swapping uppers or replacing a barrel.
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FWIW.... a carbine length Spikes buffer tube, with a "crutch tip" end cap places my nose on the charging handle of my ARpistol... you have to face the target, with elbows pulled in
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A SIG 556 SBR will allow a true side folding stock instead of the AR collapsible. If that matters to you, an AR SBR will still have the buffer extension sticking out the back (unless you go with the late Para or new RRA side folders) and be longer than a 556.
If you go AR, you might also consider a factory SBR. No engraving required, same tax $ and time as a pistol or rifle conversion. Of course, you couldn't take it home until the paperwork clears; so if you want to play with a AR rifle or pistol in the meantime this wouldn't work.
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Adding a stock to a pistol makes it a aow. Which is a $5 stamp, not $200. The process is the same. my $.02 is to build a rifle, then get the stamp for a sbr. That way you atleast have a working gun while you wait.
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Adding a stock to a pistol makes it a aow.
IANAL. Let me know how that works out for you.
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IANAL. Let me know how that works out for you.
OK, could you two explain the acronyms for the rest of the class?
FQ13
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OK, could you two explain the acronyms for the rest of the class?
FQ13
aow= any other weapon. This student knew that one.
IANAL= I'm not a lawyer. This student had to look that one up.
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TAB is right that AOW tax stamp is $5, that's what MB paid for his Serbu super shorty 12 Ga.
Whether ATF would go that route with an AR is open to debate.
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aow= any other weapon. This student knew that one.
IANAL= I'm not a lawyer. This student had to look that one up.
Ahhh, short for, I'm Anal, it makes sense now. Perfect for lawyers. Or in this case I'm not Anal if you're a non-lawyer. Either way, it works.;D
FQ13
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I believe TAB is wrong on the $5 AOW for a rifle.
I think that only applies to shotguns.
A SBR, regardless of whether it is a converted rifle, or a pistol that has has a butt-stock added (thus making it fall into the 'rifle' category by ATF logic) requires the $200 stamp.
As ScottR posted, I Am NOT A Lawyer........... and neither is TAB. ;) ;D
Call the ATF or look it up before taking the leap.
JMHO, FWIW......YMMV ;D
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Dittos to Peg. When you're signing a contract or mortgage the $500 you spend to have a lawyer read it first is money well spent. When screwing up can put you in jail for a decade if you get it wrong, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the cash. FWIW.
FQ13
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Also of note, last year the ATF made a new updated ruling on "parts kits" and pistol conversions (thanks to T/C Arms).
Once a serialized receiver is listed as a rifle, it can only be converted to pistol or SBR with the ATF paperwork and stamp.
But, if it starts out as a pistol, then it can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol as long as the 16" barrel and 26"OAL is followed while a rifle...... and parts for both can be kept.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#receiver-sale
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Ahhh, short for, I'm Anal, it makes sense now. Perfect for lawyers. Or in this case I'm not Anal if you're a non-lawyer. Either way, it works.;D
FQ13
;D Indeed! I like it! And no, I'm NOT a lawyer. Thankfully.
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Also of note, last year the ATF made a new updated ruling on "parts kits" and pistol conversions (thanks to T/C Arms).
Once a serialized receiver is listed as a rifle, it can only be converted to pistol or SBR with the ATF paperwork and stamp.
But, if it starts out as a pistol, then it can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol as long as the 16" barrel and 26"OAL is followed while a rifle...... and parts for both can be kept.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#receiver-sale
The specific regulation change may have been last year, but the original Thompson Center case was a SCOTUS ruling from back in the late 80's when I worked there the first time. (T/C, not SCOTUS, I'm not a lawyer either ;D )
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The specific regulation change may have been last year, but the original Thompson Center case was a SCOTUS ruling from back in the late 80's when I worked there the first time. (T/C, not SCOTUS, I'm not a lawyer either ;D )
Yeah, I remember reading that it was an old SCotUS case. Heck of a lag-time. ;D
You could probably do a better job than most Justices there.......... The paperwork was written a long time ago, all you have to do is read it. ;D ;D ;D
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Why not go with SIG's new ACP Tactical Transformer (LE version) as depicted in Guns&Ammo (Nov)? ATF makes life miserable, so why make their day?
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Wow. Lots of stuff. So, the folding SBR is an option, but I'd have to wait out ATF paperwork... Or, buy pistol, have now, and file paperwork for SBR conversion? Those sound reasonable?