The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on February 28, 2018, 04:52:18 AM
-
I'm going to be buying a new compact, and I've narrowed it down to these 2. Both are all but identical in size, price, looks, mileage, interior, and style. I really like both cars. They both have what I consider to be one negative. On the Corolla it's the CVT Transmission. You would think they would be cheaper because they are simpler. They're not. They are very expensive to repair if they go south out of warranty. And from what I've been able to research, their long term reliability is somewhat questionable. There have been a lot of problems and growing pains thus far. Toyota's seem to have the best reliability as far as CVT Transmissions, when compared to say Nissan, which has the absolute worst. So the Nissan Versa is off the table.
I've never driven a vehicle with one. But watching videos of CVT Transmission acceleration, the engine revs way up, then stays there until you get off the throttle. There is no "shifting" like a regular automatic with gears does. They operate similar to the variable speed head on a Bridgeport vertical milling machine. With a system of cone pulley's and a drive belt. So I list the CVT Transmission as the Corolla's negative. They are the future in small cars, and in 10 years all compacts will have them. And they will have the cost and reliability dialed in by then. But now I feel it's too much of a gamble. I'll be keeping this vehicle for a long time. The Volkswagen Jetta has a standard automatic with gears that shifts like most all automatics do. And I'm comfortable with that. The Jetta's negative, (as far as I'm concerned), is it has a turbo.
I know a lot of young drivers like them, but I'm not a big fan of turbochargers on cars. Much like the CVT Transmission, they're a big money pit if they go south out of warranty. Yeah, you get better performance and more overall power. But it's at the expense of that turbo, that you hope and pray doesn't go away. I will admit that today's turbochargers have a pretty good reputation for overall reliability. I'm not sure if the Jetta's turbocharger is liquid cooled or not. I'm hoping it is. So my thinking is the turbo is not as large of a negative as the CVT Transmission is. Advantage Jetta.
In overall vehicle reliability Toyota scores better marks than Volkswagen. Always has. But that and a buck buys a cup of coffee at the counter at Denny's. I had a Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel, and it was one of the best cars I ever had. Totally reliable. So I'm not uncomfortable buying one. And the whole "Dieselgate" mess is pretty much behind them. Volkswagen certainly isn't going away because of it.
So I would like to hear if any of you guys drive either of these, and what you think of them. I'm replacing my 26 year old 1991 F-150. Since I bought my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee, I really don't need two big full sized vehicles. So it's time to downsize. More room in the garage as well. I'm getting tired of walking sideways between 2 cars, and having to squeeze in and out of them!
-
Bill, haven't driven either, but I think you leaning to the Jetta is a good move.
That questionable transmission will always be in use but the turbo is somewhat resting unless you kick it in. There when you need it, but in background if you take it easy.
Good luck on which ever you pick.
Take care
-
CVTs are great in snowmobiles and ATVs that use a rubber belt that can be replaced for as little as 50 bucks for a really cheap one. The chains they use in CVTs in cars are a different story. I saw one for sale on Amazon for $350.00 + $41.60 shipping, so close to $400. The CVT is cheaper and simpler to build than a regular automatic transmission and should be cheaper to fix.
-
How long are you going too keep It? If more then 100k. Get the Toyota. Vw are German engineerd and have of a of strange things that are very expensive too fix
-
Keep looking!
Toyota is ok for a while but lately I’m less impressed by the cheap materials. Also don’t care for CVT.
The VW, no thanks....
(Still a Ford guy). ;)
I’d look at a midsize if you’re over 6 ft tall. They get darn near the mileage of the chitboxes these days!
-
How long are you going too keep It?
Unless it gets wrecked or stolen, until the wheels fall off, or I die.
-
Having owned VW's I would say go for the Jetta, follow their maintenance schedule religiously and it will last you for a long time. They are well made cars, but need the proper maintenance to stay reliable.
-
That has not been my exp with them. I know lots of people that have had them in their feets as they were cheap. All very well taken care. But between 100-120k something goes out nd it costs at east 25% of the value of the car.
That is an issue for me, I expect at least 150 with out. Major issue 200 is better.
-
I would go with corolla. Its one of Toyota's flag ship vehicle's with an awesome track record. The vw suffers from build quality issues and polymer parts in place they don't belong. Stay away from turbo's. Its as headache you don't need. I've been doing the same homework and I'm either buying a corolla or the Camry. Honda has gone the turbo route I'm not willing to travel
-
I had a 1979 Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel. It was a great car. But that was then and this is now. It was also a non turbocharged diesel. Now they are all turbo gasoline.
-
You're getting a lot of good advice her, so I may as well chime in with my experience...
I lost all faith in VW when they started building them in Mexico. Unfortunately, I did not learn this lesson until I had purchased a VW New Bug for Bunny. After the warranty had expired on the POS, the tranny went out. It cost a great deal of money to replace it, and the car was never the same after that experience.
When the tranny went out a second time, I called up the We Buy Any Car folks and they gave me $400 as they hauled it away. It should tell you something that I felt I had got the better part of the deal.
I wouldn't have another VW if you bought it and gave it to me along with a gas card and paid insurance.
Kid sister (she's 67) has had Toyotas for the past three or four decades. Started with a Celica in the early '80s. Currently she and her husband own one of the hybrids and one of their bigger units (I don't remember the model name). They have had very few problems with any of them through the years.
I would go with the Toyota, given the limited choice.
Like Tim, I have preferred Fords through the years. I had a 1997 4WD Explorer that just may have been my favorite car. But, Ford has quality issues these days. Their Focus has a clutch-pak issue that needs replacement every 20K miles. It leaks a small amount of tranny fluid inside the automatic transmission and that causes a herky-jerky start in low gear. Ford has willingly addressed the issue each time, but Bunny's Focus has been in the shop 3 times with the same problem. Ford extended the warranty on the faulty transmission, so it gets fixed each time. But it's a pain in the rear to need that service. It's been bad enough that a class action group is forming to try and receive redress from Ford.
I think some of the best cars on the road today are made by Subaru. Great safety rating and excellent warranty. Maybe you should expand your search parameters.
FWIW,
Crusader Rabbit
-
I second the Rabbits Subaru recommendation. I nearly went that direction but they don’t give em away. I managed a 5K discount on the Ford with an extended warranty thrown in... our local Subaru would not budge on the pricing or trade.
-
I'm most likely going to go with the Toyota. The Corolla is the best selling car worldwide, and is as common as M&M's. Most of the larger Toyota dealers around here have 60 or more of them in stock at any given time. I'm not put off by the CVT Transmission. They just drive different. And because of that a lot of drivers don't like them, because they detune the car somewhat, and make for a less exciting ride.
But let's be honest, if I wanted an "exciting" ride I wouldn't be buying a 4 cylinder compact to begin with. There are millions of these CVT Transmissions in this country alone. And millions more in Continental Europe, where 4 cylinder compacts are even more popular than they are here due to much higher fuel cost. If there were any major issues with them, we would have heard about it by now.
Most people say to keep the fluid changed more often than the dealer recommends. They don't like old fluid, and it can effect their operation. And another thing is not to floor it until the fluid is up to operating temperature. The Toyota's employ's a built in heater inside the transmission to help with this when it's cold out. Here in Phoenix that won't be much of a problem. Especially in the Summer months.
-
Here's 2 more cents that's worth even less in real world money.
My mechanic works on all kinds of stuff. My son had a VW Jetta and he beat the crap out of it for years and it kept going, but he fixed a lot of stuff. My mechanic points out that they are over-engineered...too complicated, too much disassembly to get to things, etc., etc.
So I would go with the Toyota. We had a 4 Runner that was an awesome vehicle till it eventually tried to kill Maggie with Co leaks. They're good vehicles, but WATCH THE DEALERS! Everyone I have been to makes other dealers look like the Salvation Army. They use every trick, every, half truth, just HORRIBLE treatment.
Good luck.
-
I read that there were a lot of problems with CVTs when they first started putting them in cars. It seems they've got it all sorted out now.
CR, I have little to no faith in any vehicle made in Mexico, unlike my idiot brother. He bought a Dodge pickup truck that was made in Mexico. He said it was the biggest POS he's ever owned. When it was time to trade it in, what do you suppose he bought? Another Dodge pickup truck made in Mexico! What in the actual heck would make anyone do that? He thought Dodge made the best trucks, even though his very own experience proved otherwise.
I've had little trouble with either of my Chevy Silverados made in Pontiac, Michigan. The alternator went out on the first one after the 6 year extended warranty was up. I traded it in for another new one in case other things were going to start breaking too. It was an excellent truck and I wish I would have kept it for several more years.
-
,, unlike my idiot brother. He bought a Dodge pickup truck that was made in Mexico. He said it was the biggest POS he's ever owned. When it was time to trade it in, what do you suppose he bought? Another Dodge pickup truck made in Mexico!
Insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly expecting different results.
-
Insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly expecting different results.
Using recreational drugs didn't improve his sanity either.
-
Drugs never make things better
-
Drugs never make things better
It depends on the drugs and the situation. Once when I was coming to after surgery I felt a sense of calm and wellness that I've never felt before or since. I opened my eyes, looked over and saw my mom sitting there, closed my eyes, and everything was right with the world. Of course that's nothing like snorting meth. Anesthesia, good. Street drugs, bad.
-
I've been following my this tread from afar.
I can't believe it's come down to this. Like discussing whether to buy a Jennings or FIE.
Really Jetta vs Corolla? Those are the best choices?
I will admit I have psychological hangups about certain cars.
Chevrolet: My grade school nemesis's father owned the local Chevy dealer. WILL NEVER OWN A GM.
Toyota: I can't get it out of my head that the first three letters spell "toy" and not in a good way.
VW: Cheap hippy cars, but I'd love one of the old pickup trucks or a Carmen Gia.
FORD: Found On the Road Dead or Fix Or Repair Daily
Still though that leaves a pretty good range of makes available.
-
Still though that leaves a pretty good range of makes available.
Such as?
Subaru..... More expensive for anything comparable. Too few dealers who don't deal.
Honda..... Same no deal dealers, but more of them.
Mazda...... Same deal, but add ugly to the equation, along with crappy, cheap looking interiors with that stupid pop up information screen, that works like a jack-in-the-box every time you start the car.
Chrysler..... plenty of dealers. Not many models. Their CVT Transmissions, (the only type of automatic that's available in these compacts), have questionable reliability.
Mercedes, BMW...... Overpriced and problem plagued. Not to mention they depreciate faster than day after sex from a paid whore once they're out of warranty.
-
I asked my pals at Complete Auto Parts what they would recommend.
They said they never sell any Subaru parts. Ever.
Probably worth an extra few bucks for that kind of reliability.
Crusader Rabbit
-
Over 45 years, from my ‘65 Mustang to my ‘14 Escape and seven more in between, I have more than 1,000,000 miles driven with one incident of a breakdown on my Fords!
It was my 15 year old PU whose break lines finally rotted out last year.. I replaced them and I still drive it every day!
I cannot say that about any other brand I’ve owned...
-
I've been following my this tread from afar.
I can't believe it's come down to this. Like discussing whether to buy a Jennings or FIE.
Really Jetta vs Corolla? Those are the best choices?
I will admit I have psychological hangups about certain cars.
Chevrolet: My grade school nemesis's father owned the local Chevy dealer. WILL NEVER OWN A GM.
Toyota: I can't get it out of my head that the first three letters spell "toy" and not in a good way.
VW: Cheap hippy cars, but I'd love one of the old pickup trucks or a Carmen Gia.
FORD: Found On the Road Dead or Fix Or Repair Daily
Still though that leaves a pretty good range of makes available.
FORD = F***ing Old Rebuilt Dodge. ;)
ETA: When I was a teenager a family I knew had 2 Ford products. They were a Lincoln Continental and a Ford Pinto if I'm not mistaken. I can't recall ever seeing both of them in the driveway at once, because one or the other was always in the shop being repaired. Sometimes there was nothing in the driveway because both were in the shop at the same time.
-
I asked my pals at Complete Auto Parts what they would recommend.
They said they never sell any Subaru parts. Ever.
Probably worth an extra few bucks for that kind of reliability.
Crusader Rabbit
there are 3 reasons for this.
Most of the people that own them would never dream of getting their hands dirty
Most of the parts are dealer only
When awd spider gear let's go, you junk it as repairs can be 10k
-
there are 3 reasons for this.
Most of the people that own them would never dream of getting their hands dirty
Most of the parts are dealer only
When awd spider gear let's go, you junk it as repairs can be 10k
Very true TAB. And another thing is a very large percentage of Subaru's are leased, (i.e. rented). Subaru offers good lease incentives. Assuming one actually believes leasing to be a "good" option in the first place.
-
Here is another part of this whole deal where I might make out good. Earlier this week I got rear ended. The only damage was my rear bumper got bent down slightly. I used a 20 ton hydraulic jack to bend it back into position. It doesn't look bad at all.
Believe it or not the body shop estimated the damage at $1,918.00! I just called Farmers, (the insurance company that's handling everyone's claim), and the girl told me as soon as she gets the estimate and photo's from the body shop, she'll cut the check to me, and I can pay the body shop for the repairs.
No way I'm going to put almost $2K into the thing. I'll wash it and doll it up and put a sign on it in front of my house for $1,800.00. That plus the $1,918.00 check from Farmers brings the total to just a tad over $3,700.00.
That's $3,700.00 less I have to shell out for whatever new car I buy. If someone offered me $1,500.00 for it, I would probably take it. I doubt a dealer would give me anything for it in trade. Maybe a few hundred, if that. So this rear end job may all work out to my advantage. It was as if the hand of God smacked the ass of my truck!
-
Very true TAB. And another thing is a very large percentage of Subaru's are leased, (i.e. rented). Subaru offers good lease incentives. Assuming one actually believes leasing to be a "good" option in the first place.
leasing has its advantages for business owners mainly. You get too write off 100% of the cost rather than depreciation. Which can be better for you. I for example lease my mini dump truck. It costs me the same as a payment, but I only have to buy tires and fuel. I can also write off 100% of that cost, where as if I bought it, only 40%. So at the end of the day it costs me nothing, but insurance too have it.
-
leasing has its advantages for business owners mainly. You get too write off 100% of the cost rather than depreciation. Which can be better for you. I for example lease my mini dump truck. It costs me the same as a payment, but I only have to buy tires and fuel. I can also write off 100% of that cost, where as if I bought it, only 40%. So at the end of the day it costs me nothing, but insurance too have it.
For you it's good, but for the average guy it stinks on ice. First you have to come up with an "Acquisition Fee". Which is nothing more than a down payment you'll never see again. Then you have to make the payments until the lease ends. Then you have to give the car back, and either walk home or else lease another one.
And God help you if you go over the allotted mileage, or get a stain on the seats, or a dent in the body. You'll be assessed and penalized for everything. It's basically a car payment that never ends.
-
My mother leased a chitbox Tercel when she was nearing her "senile" years. She had no idea she'd done so because the dealer probably took advantage of her since she was alone with no kids nearby to assist in the transaction. She drove the car for 3 years, the lease term, and made all her payments, did all her maintenance etc... When she made her 36th payment, on time, she "thought" she owned the car.
A few months later the dealer called demanding her car which lit the old lady up and she marched over there with every friggin cancelled check she wrote on thing...
Long story but in the end, my brother went to her bank, got a cashiers check to pay off the damn thing and settled it with the dealer. Ma never knew or understood the entire transaction. In her mind, she taught 'em a lesson!
-
I m ow lots of people that lease, they get a new car every 3 years and for the most part it is the same and / oress then buying. For you and I that drive them till the wheels fall off it does not make sense, but for the crowd that wants. New car every few years it does
-
I’d consider leasing when I’m done working and won’t put on 20-30K miles annually.
My neighbor is paying just over a Benjamin per month for a compact Hyundai sedan...don’t know what their upfront costs were.
-
Well Bill, what's it gonna be? I will throw in my 2 cents...one of my sons got a Mazda 6. It's a sporty looking dude. A little noisy inside, but it's been a great and economical car. No problems at all.
On the other hand...does it have to be new? I'm driving our 2002 Excursion and it has 394,000 miles on it right now. The water pumps and alternators are free now....that lifetime warranty thing. A well taken care of diesel has a lot of life in though I'd avoid Ford 6.0 liter vehicles. My 2006 F250 has 207,000 miles and I had to change out the injectors at 185k miles....there's a problem with that model's injectors.
-
Well Bill, what's it gonna be? I will throw in my 2 cents...one of my sons got a Mazda 6. It's a sporty looking dude. A little noisy inside, but it's been a great and economical car. No problems at all.
On the other hand...does it have to be new? I'm driving our 2002 Excursion and it has 394,000 miles on it right now. The water pumps and alternators are free now....that lifetime warranty thing. A well taken care of diesel has a lot of life in though I'd avoid Ford 6.0 liter vehicles. My 2006 F250 has 207,000 miles and I had to change out the injectors at 185k miles....there's a problem with that model's injectors.
Wow, only 600,000 miles on your Fords? What junk!!!
;)
-
Well Bill, what's it gonna be?
Corolla. Unless they get sold, most likely one of these 2. I'll be ready to buy in a week or 2. Believe it or not, these were the only 2 Toyota Corolla's I could find in the entire city of Phoenix without cloth interiors.
https://www.toyotaofsurprise.com/inventory.aspx?_new=true&_model=corolla&_trim=xse
-
I think the Toyota may be the better purchase right now.
I'm actually looking for a new truck since last week I gave my F250 to family member who needs it in their construction business. So...what dealer want to do is sell the stuff on the lot that they think everyone wants...and most people do want that. I'm trying to find a truck without a console...which is tough because it's only available in a lower model which only has packages that exclude some of the things I want...like leather seats. Plus I test drive an F150 and it has more noise in it than an F250 with a diesel...but I don't want the honkin' big F250 I want something easier to drive but I also don't want to deal with the noisy F150 interior.
And another thing...I understand the F250 has the big honkin' diesel in it...but did they really need to stiffen the "power steering" so the driver gets the feel of driving a big honkin' diesel. Sheesshhh...I can turn our RV with a little finger but I need to hang off 250 lbs on the steering wheel to pull the wheel over to steer the F250. I can't reach over the side and get to anything in the bed of the F250 it's so stinking high in the air...not a problem with my 2006. So...F250 is out. Dealer is checking on an aftermarket sound deadening package in the F150.
Timothy I'm driving the Excursion right now and it's solid but after nearly 400k miles it's a bit dated because the paint was ruined by taking it to car washes (I didn't do it). I was kickin' at 80-85 doing fine on the way home. That 7.3L diesel is a bulletproof dude but I need some interior work on it plus it's always been noisy and I'm wanting to ditch the noise to enjoy tunes while driving.
-
I think the Toyota may be the better purchase right now.
I think so too. They're reputation for reliability is second to none. And their CVT Transmissions are among the most reliable out there. A lot of people badmouth CVT's, but not because of reliability. But rather because of how they drive. There is no shifting. Just a smooth, steady acceleration and transfer of power. They are very boring and unexciting in that regard.
I can easily live with boring and unexciting, in exchange for great fuel economy and good reliability. And the car looks good. At least in the upgraded version. I just don't want cloth seats. They don't wear well, and we have a small dog. His nails can easily snag in the upholstery, and pull out threads. They also get very dirty quickly. So while they are a bit cooler in the hot Summer months, it really doesn't matter because you have the A/C blasting every time you get in the car.
I just can't put into words how much I despise dealing with car salesmen. They can suck every ounce of joy out of buying a new vehicle. My bull$h!t meter gets pegged in 5 minutes when I am forced to deal with them. So I don't look forward to the purchase. Afterward, yes. Before and during... No.
-
Yep the sales guys are a problem. Back when I bought the Excursion we were looking at the Suburbans...1/2 the people I know had transmission problems. So I knew they had an issue plus I had replaced a couple of GM transmissions in my past.
When I asked the sales guy of course none of that was true...I told him I'd buy it if he guaranteed 200k miles out of the transmission or shut up. He did not have enough sense to go buy an aftermarket warranty. The Excursion easily outdistanced the Suburban in longevity and low maintenance so he did me a favor. But I'll not forget the way I was told the GM transmissions never had a failure in their cars.....
-
Remember guys, most car salesman can’t change their own oil, they’d call a wrecker to change a flat or bring em a gallon of gas!
Good luck with the Corolla, I had one back in the eighties. An SR5 with the bulletproof 20R motor, 5 speed, rwd! It was a blast to drive in the winter..
Not as anemic as current models but times change.
-
Remember guys, most car salesman can’t change their own oil, they’d call a wrecker to change a flat or bring em a gallon of gas!
That was another plus for the 2018 Corolla. I checked and both the oil drain plug, and the spin on oil filter had easy access. So oil and filter changes shouldn't be a problem.
-
The one issue I’ve had with my feather hauler Ranger is the location of the oil filter. I’ve changed it twice a year for fifteen years and finally figured out how to access the thing without having to have to break my wrist to re-install... that was year fourteen...
A real PITA!
-
I think the Toyota may be the better purchase right now.
I'm actually looking for a new truck since last week I gave my F250 to family member who needs it in their construction business. So...what dealer want to do is sell the stuff on the lot that they think everyone wants...and most people do want that. I'm trying to find a truck without a console...which is tough because it's only available in a lower model which only has packages that exclude some of the things I want...like leather seats. Plus I test drive an F150 and it has more noise in it than an F250 with a diesel...but I don't want the honkin' big F250 I want something easier to drive but I also don't want to deal with the noisy F150 interior.
And another thing...I understand the F250 has the big honkin' diesel in it...but did they really need to stiffen the "power steering" so the driver gets the feel of driving a big honkin' diesel. Sheesshhh...I can turn our RV with a little finger but I need to hang off 250 lbs on the steering wheel to pull the wheel over to steer the F250. I can't reach over the side and get to anything in the bed of the F250 it's so stinking high in the air...not a problem with my 2006. So...F250 is out. Dealer is checking on an aftermarket sound deadening package in the F150.
Timothy I'm driving the Excursion right now and it's solid but after nearly 400k miles it's a bit dated because the paint was ruined by taking it to car washes (I didn't do it). I was kickin' at 80-85 doing fine on the way home. That 7.3L diesel is a bulletproof dude but I need some interior work on it plus it's always been noisy and I'm wanting to ditch the noise to enjoy tunes while driving.
If you're having that much trouble looking for a new truck you like, why not order one with all the options you want, and none that you don't? I've ordered most of my vehicles instead of buying something off the lot. I looked at catalogs deciding what I did and did not want, then went to the dealer who entered it in the computer. We went though the list to double check first, then my vehicle was ready to be built. Of course it takes longer to get one from the factory than off the lot, but it's worth the wait to get what you really wanted, unless you need it right now.
-
You are right Frank. The first dealer would not do that. They wanted to sell the packages...so they sell nothing instead. The 2nd dealer will order but only the general manager can access individual orders like that and he was out. I've got to get back with them. When they call me back about aftermarket sound proofing kits I'll run in and talk with them.
I am also going to get it without a stereo...car stereos always are too much money for too little performance. In the F250 I'm running, or was running Focal speakers and an Arc Audio amp and a JHL subwoofer. Not the best system in the world but it ran rings around anything that Ford has ever offered.
-
Auto dealers put vehicles on their lots with the packages they can sell to a given demographic for a given area. Fifteen years ago I asked dealers to order me a stripped small pickup and they all refused. Probably no money in the feather haulers.
I found mine in RI, a basic truck with torsion bar suspension, CD/MP3 stereo, fog lights and 3 liter motor. Basic... $14,500 out the door in a Presidents Day blizzard!
Prolly da onlyist truck the guy sold all day!
-
I ordered a van without a stereo because a guy I worked with used to work at a car stereo store and said he'd hook me up with a good system at a good price. He somehow got a discount as an ex-employee and passed on the savings to me (maybe). I'll never order or buy anything again without at least an AM radio. There was no hole in the dash for a stereo, and the part it slides into wasn't there either. He rigged something up with a hole in the dash and couple of metal brackets to keep the stereo from flopping around in there. He used a hole saw to drill through the metal by the corner the windshield to put an antenna in. He had to run an antenna cable through a hole that I think he drilled through the firewall. And he had to run cables throughout the vehicle that should have already been there. We had to cut holes in the front doors for speakers too. The hole he drilled for an antenna rusted all the way around and it didn't matter how much paint was on it.
-
I've ordered cars without stereos before and didn't have any problems like that.
-
I've ordered cars without stereos before and didn't have any problems like that.
They must have had a lot of things installed that my van didn't.
-
So yesterday I bought a brand new 2018 Toyota Camry. One of the first things I noticed was the sticker under the hood that called out for 0W-16 Engine Oil. I never even heard of that weight. A quick on line search netted this from Toyota.
https://www.ebay.com/i/263247431319?chn=ps&dispItem=1
It seems expensive, and I don't know yet what other brands are acceptable. We didn't get home until late in the afternoon yesterday, and I was pretty tired after haggling with salesmen. So I didn't feel like digesting owners manuals and all that. (They gave me a total of 3 manuals with the vehicle, each the thickness of a phone book).
Anyway, I do my own oil changes, and I know this model takes a cartridge filter which translates into a mess, screwing with O-Rings, and all of that. You also have to remove an access panel to get to the plug and filter. But like anything else, after you do it a couple of times, it's no big deal. I'm just not a fan of cartridge filters.
The Corolla uses a spin on filter, and has no access panel. But we bought the Camry instead because it's a much nicer, more roomy vehicle. Along with a bigger, more powerful engine, and an 8-Speed, gear driven automatic, as opposed to the Corolla's belt driven CVT, that I just wasn't comfortable with.
The thing drives like a dream, and lopes along at 65 MPH at only 1,600 RPM in 8th gear. Which I thought was really low for a 4-cylinder. So now I have to research this oddball oil, and find somewhere that carries it. I don't know if Wal-Mart stocks it or not. I'm hoping so because buying oil anywhere else is usually around 25% more. Even at the chain auto parts stores. I'm not even sure how much it takes.
Anyway, this is the car. I don't know how long the link will stay active, seeing as the vehicle has been sold.
https://www.toyotaofsurprise.com/detail-2018-toyota-camry-se_automatic-new-17411259.html
Now all I have to do is wait 3 more weeks for my concrete to cure 100%, so I can park my truck out of the way of the garage. Until then I have to shuffle cars around.
-
Another weird thing was this Camry was actually cheaper to insure than the Corolla would have been. In spite of being the more expensive vehicle. That surprised me.
-
Larger vehicle, better survivability! Compacts are always higher...
This new oil, from a quick search, is next generation oil that’s designed to maximize MPG and being driven by the mean, green energy groups. They’ve been using it in Japan for more than a decade.
Probably rare and expensive. Amazon had 1 liter bottle for 15 bucks from a company I’ve never heard of.
https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/
-
Well there is good news. I just did a little more research and found out in 2018 Toyota switched back to a spin on filter for the Camry's. So that's good news. Cartridge filters are a mess to deal with. And for just $5.50 each, the price isn't bad either.
https://www.ebay.com/i/263525944242?chn=ps&dispItem=1
-
Buy all ten, you’re good for 100,000 miles I’d guess!
-
I never heard of a multi-grade oil with such a narrow range. My ATV uses 5W-50, but the owner's manual used to call for 2W-50. So my ATV oil has a range of 45, but used to be 48, exactly 3 times the range of your 0W-16.
-
Read the article I posted, Frank.
-
I'll most likely use 0W-20. It's only 4 points off to the high side. And Toyota say's in the manual other oils can be used. 0W-20 would most likely be a better choice in these hot Arizona Summers anyway.
-
Read the article I posted, Frank.
No! You can't make me. :P
-
Bill, do not substitute any other oil for your new car, The required oil might be expensive, but the damage done by any other type of oil will cost you a lot more. I ran an oil change shop and used to have to get the owners manual out to show the owner that the synthetic oil was REQUIRED and that using anything else would void the warranty. All they saw was the higher price and didn't take into consideration the benefits of the better oil. I think that one of the thing the salesmen should have to do is explain the maintenance requirements for any new car during the negotiations, It would help with things like this. Good luck with your new ride.
-
Bill, do not substitute any other oil for your new car, The required oil might be expensive, but the damage done by any other type of oil will cost you a lot more. I ran an oil change shop and used to have to get the owners manual out to show the owner that the synthetic oil was REQUIRED and that using anything else would void the warranty. All they saw was the higher price and didn't take into consideration the benefits of the better oil. I think that one of the thing the salesmen should have to do is explain the maintenance requirements for any new car during the negotiations, It would help with things like this. Good luck with your new ride.
I absolutely agree with this statement. I worked in a garage for two plus years, did a few thousand oil changes outside of my own and never varied from factory specs.
I run straight synthetic in both my vehicles today but only at the factory viscosity.
-
Toyota does allow for the use of 0W-20 in the manual. In fact it even suggests it under high heat conditions. And say's to return to 0W-16 at the next oil change under more normal conditions. So for me that works out well. My first oil change will be in extremely hot weather.
I don't drive enough to judge my oil changes by mileage. So I simply change twice a year. I'll use 0W-16 in the cooler weather, and 0W-20 in the Summer when the daytime temps are always over 100F. And I'll remain within factory recommendations by doing so.
-
Bill,
Isn't Toyota giving free maintenance of the 2018 models for 25,000 miles?
-
Yes, they are. But they don't schedule oil changes until 10,000 miles. I never go that long. I don't drive that much, so it would take me forever before I got to 10K. So I just do it myself twice a year.
-
This new oil piqued my interest and curiosity and the more I read about it the more I'm convinced it's driven by the governments and not the engineers. They state that Japan has used this new oil for twenty years with better mileage numbers and "no appreciable" damage to internal combustion parts. The problem I have with that is that the average Japanese driver only drives about 5000 miles a year compared to our average of well over 12,000 annually. Are the Japanese really seeing engine damage when they're trading up every 5-7 years on average? Pretty low mileage numbers...
Not all auto makers are converting as of yet with only the Asians moving in that direction. I probably won't ever see a vehicle that would require a 0W oil in my lifetime unless I buy another vehicle from Asia, which is unlikely. Both my Fords use 5W-20 and as stated earlier, I use synthetic in both and can't go back now. It's costly but I drive most of my cars near 200K before I start needing to worry about engine wear!
Bill, I'd be delighted if your new ride hits that 39 MPG highway number because my auto doesn't come close to it's rated mileage. Of course, it's a turbo and quick as hell and I have a remote starter that saps the computer numbers on MPG.... Mathematically, I saw near 35 on a cross country trip a few years back but normally it's down around 25-28...
-
Here is the deal, lighter Oil more power and more effienct, that is the main reason why. Also don't forget that most the places that use too have barrings(main cams) no longer do, just raw al. That is it. Personally I like my old cars/ trucks, I can work on those, I go 15k miles in my truck between oil changed, but then again I have 23 quarts and it's diesel.
-
Does thicker oil cling to parts better, and thinner oil just run off?
Here's something else I've been thinking about. I saw a car commercial that shows if you go out of your lane the car automatically turns back into your lane. So if you try to swerve around something will it steer you right back into it?
-
Does thicker oil cling to parts better, and thinner oil just run off?
It's more of a case of the newer engines being built to much closer tolerances. There is less room in between the moving parts. It requires a thinner oil under the same oil pressure to reach them. Especially during a cold start. Which is where most of engine wear takes place. It's harder and takes longer for thick oil to be pumped into smaller places.
Here's something else I've been thinking about. I saw a car commercial that shows if you go out of your lane the car automatically turns back into your lane. So if you try to swerve around something will it steer you right back into it?
No. The lane departure feature will sound an audible "beep" if you either drift out of your lane, or turn into a left turn lane at an intersection. The "beep" will be followed by a slight tug on the wheel that would place the vehicle back into it's lane should you be hands off. (Say if you fell asleep at the wheel). The "beep" is loud enough that it would wake you up. But the tug itself is not strong enough to override your hand or hands.
It's an annoyance in traffic around town, or on a crowded freeway. And you can turn it off by pressing a button on the steering wheel. I leave it off for normal driving. It also has collision avoidance that consists of radar that is linked to the cars computer. It constantly computes your vehicles speed, along with it's distance from the car ahead of you. I also read it takes into account wet roads by knowing if the wipers are on. Depending on the closing rate, it will automatically apply the brakes. This also works with the cruise control. It will slow down in order to maintain a safe interval between you and the car in front of you. It's really nice, and it keeps you from having to tap the brakes to get out of cruise. It is constantly adjusting for you. And when there is no vehicle in front of you, the speed will increase to whatever you had it set at.
This feature is "On" all the time. I have not tested it, and don't plan to. In another 10 years when more of these type of cars are on the road, it's going to cut down on rush hour rear end collisions big time. When people are yacking on their phones, putting on makeup, or drinking coffee. You're going to see them on all cars in the not too distant future. Especially as the technology gets cheaper.
I'm really amazed at this new Toyota. It's a beautiful car, and I'm glad I bought it. It drives and handles like a dream. And it's unbelievably fast and powerful for a non turbo 4-cylinder. (203 H.P.) To give you an example, my 1991 Mustang LX 5.0 V-8 was 235 H.P. And this new Toyota has an 8-speed transmission, as opposed to the Mustang's 4-speed automatic overdrive. That more than makes up for the 32 less horsepower. Not to mention the weight difference of a Aluminum 4-cylinder compared to a cast iron block V-8. Cars have come a long way since I bought my 1991 F-150...... Which I still have by the way.
-
comment on synthetic oil temperature... I had a 2003 Harley 1200R Sportster in which I used Mobil 1 fully synthetic after the break in period... after a 70+ mile ride back from Ruskin, at 90F air temp with an air cooled V twin, the oil temp was barely 165F....
I run Mobil 1 in my John Deere 8)
-
My 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee has both an engine oil temperature gauge, and a transmission oil temperature gauge. The absolute hottest I ever saw the engine oil was 234F on the gauge. And that occurred while driving 75 MPH on I-40 from Laughlin, Nevada to Lake Havasu City, Arizona. Last June when the outside air temperature was 116F on the instrument panel.
The hottest the oil gets around town with an outside air temp in the mid 40's to low 50's in the morning this time of year, is right around 203F. So from one extreme to the other I'm only seeing a temperature difference of 31F. Not nearly enough to start jumping up and down about how running thinner oil is going to be detrimental to an engine.
-
I just read what Consumer Reports said about Lane Keeping Assist. "When using LKA, we’ve found that giving a wide berth to a cyclist or pedestrian may cause the system to steer the car back toward the curb, scaring everyone involved." They also said it hasn't been proven to prevent accidents. It's one step closer to making a self-driving car, like the one that just killed a woman yesterday. It looks like it was speeding at the time.
-
Assisted driving I won’t use, period!
I build machines, I’ll never trust one!
-
Like I said, the only use I can see for it is if you're driving on long stretches of Interstate. It could save the day if you dozed off. But if you feel like you're going to doze off, you shouldn't be driving anyway. I've driven tired many times in almost 50 years of driving. And I never once fell asleep.
-
Up to 6,000 fatal crashes each year may be caused by drowsy drivers, so anything that prevents that would be good. If it's not also running over or scaring pedestrians and cyclists.
-
I have never dozed off either. If it comes to the point that I cannot operate a vehicle alertly and safely, I’ll quit.
-
I felt like I was going to fall asleep on the the way to or from work more often than not. It's a good thing it wasn't more than a 20 minute ride, and I no longer work.
-
I was working for someone back in the 90's that bought 24 Caterpillar 3516 diesels ....2,000 HP industrial units made to run at that HP day in and day out. Their scientists/engineers/technicians preached synthetic oil for long life. Also, that the #1 cause of failure in turbochargers is coking on the bearings. They suggested a "cool down" run when shutting them down....idle the sucker for a minute before you shut it off. I try to do that with all my diesel turbo's since they run red hot...before shutting them down I let them idle for 30 seconds....more if it's hot and a hard run.
Synthetic oil is made to tolerate high temperatures so...it's best if you have a turbo by far. It doesn't coke up the turbo bearings like normal motor oils...I have 394,000 on a 7.3L Excursion and 208,000 on an F250 6.0L that tends to back that up.
Also, maybe some of you guys want to look up a prelube system. Every industrial unit I've worked with or on in the last 40 years over say 400 HP had a prelube system. I know there are some prelube systems out there for automobiles...but I don't have the time to research. If you want really long engine life then a prelube system is a great way to extend life at a not too high of a cost.
In fact...if you do start looking at prelubes to what is best and find one for an 8 cylinder F150 let me know...I'm ordering an F150 this week.
-
I agree 100%. If every new car sold today had an automatic pre oiler, that kicked in as soon as the drivers door was opened, car engines would last all but indefinitely. Because it's a proven fact that most all engine wear occurs at startup, and during the first minute of operation. Which is most likely why the manufacturers don't provide them.
It's the same with turbochargers. If people allowed an idle, "cool down" period of just 30 seconds to a minute like you mentioned, their life would be extended tremendously.
-
I love pressurized pre oilers, every boat I have ever built has had one.
-
Now my only concern is what gas to use in this new Toyota? The manual is a bit open ended, and say's to use a minimum of 87 Octane, (or 91 Research Octane), or higher. I'm wondering if this will be enough in the hot Arizona Summer months, when knocking can easily occur when the engine is placed under a load, like climbing uphill or accelerating on to a freeway.
My 1991 F-150, (5.0 V-8) knocks like crazy unless I use 91 Octane Premium in it. (The manual say's it should run on 87 Octane). My 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 HEMI V-8 say's to use 89 Octane ("Mid Grade"). But I also use 91 Octane Premium in it as well. It performs much better, and never knocks. Also, 89 Octane "Mid Grade" isn't always available in every station. Especially if you get out of the city.
The engine compression ratio in this new Camry 4-cylinder is listed at 13 to 1, which is very high. The car was delivered with a full tank. I have no idea what type of fuel they put in it. It doesn't knock, but admittingly I'm babying it until it's gets at least a few hundred miles on it, and gets somewhat broken in. So it's not going to knock under relaxed driving conditions in the mild temperatures we're experiencing now. (50's to 70's).
Also, the computer in these modern vehicles is capable of constantly adjusting the timing while driving, to adapt to any fuel without knocking or engine damage. But they can only detune the engine just so much to compensate.
This thing gets such good fuel economy, (I'm averaging almost 40 MPG driving around town with it), I'm tempted to just run 91 Octane Premium in it and be done with it. I don't like the open ended "recommendation" of 87 Octane.... "Or Higher". I'm tempted to use "higher" with a 13 to 1 compression engine. And not worry about the few extra cents a gallon it costs. I'll save money elsewhere.
-
If it runs good on 87 octane and you're putting 91 in it, you're just wasting money. Around here that would probably be 25 cents per gallon difference. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't had to buy anything higher than 87 octane in several years. It makes a big difference when your gas tank holds around 35 gallons. That would be an extra $8.75 for me. If it was my car I'd fill it with 87 octane and see if it knocks or not. If it does you could add some octane booster until your next fill up.
-
I'll most likely try that. As I said, I've got no idea what they put in it when I bought it. Most likely 87 Octane. I don't even know if Toyota makes an engine that requires 91 Octane Premium. It's just that 13 to 1 compression scares me on 87 Octane. Especially when it's 115 F outside in the Summer.
This Toyota 2.5 Liter 4-cylinder makes 203 horsepower. Compared to my 1991 Ford F-150, which is a 5.0 Liter V-8, any only produces 185 horsepower. And it's got twice the cylinders and displacement.
-
I burn 91 in my turbo once in a while. It is designed to make max HP of 248 on the grade and if I keep my foot out of and run at 65 for extended trips it gets better mileage! My problem is like Franks! It’s 40-50 cents a gallon more than 87 octane.
-
I burn 91 in my turbo once in a while. It is designed to make max HP of 248 on the grade and if I keep my foot out of and run at 65 for extended trips it gets better mileage! My problem is like Franks! It’s 40-50 cents a gallon more than 87 octane.
Now that you mention it, I think the price is about that much higher here too. A long time ago it used to be 10 cents difference between 87 and 89, and 10 cents between 89 and 91. Now it's probably around 20 cents extra for 89, plus another 25 cents for 91 octane. That puts it closer to $16 extra per tankful.
-
Yea, I normally fill at half tank, about 8 gallons. Right now 87 is 2.60 and 91 is 3.10 up the street. Funny thing though, I can drive five miles into CT and pay over 3 bucks for 87...and everything is 10% ethanol out here!
-
Just because it has a octane rating of x, does not mean you are getting that. Remember you can up to 10% ethanol in it, which only has 80% the btu of gas. I would never run any thing that "needs" 91/93 On the street as pump gas is very bad gas. Even in my toys that need higher octane, I only buy it in cans or run 100ll. Yes it cost more, but I know what I am getting, has is cheap compared to say a decent boat motor
-
The 2018 Toyota Camry has a 16 gallon fuel tank. My 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee has a 26 gallon tank. And my 1991 Ford F-150 has 2 tanks. Each hold around 16.5 gallons. The most I ever put in it was 32.5 gallons.
So if I ran them all dry and filled them to the brim, I'm looking at right around 80 gallons total. 91 Octane Premium by me currently goes for $2.70 @ gallon. That would come to $216.00 to top off all 3 vehicles if they all had dry tanks.
-
True, the station where I pumped gas, like most, mixed high test with low octane fuel for their four grades of fuel. The owner could set the mix ratio...
This was nearly thirty years ago but it still questionable.
-
The 2018 Toyota Camry has a 16 gallon fuel tank. My 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee has a 26 gallon tank. And my 1991 Ford F-150 has 2 tanks. Each hold around 16.5 gallons. The most I ever put in it was 32.5 gallons.
So if I ran them all dry and filled them to the brim, I'm looking at right around 80 gallons total. 91 Octane Premium by me currently goes for $2.70 @ gallon. That would come to $216.00 to top off all 3 vehicles if they all had dry tanks.
it costs me almost double that too fill my f450 with diesel.....
-
Just because it has a octane rating of x, does not mean you are getting that. Remember you can up to 10% ethanol in it, which only has 80% the btu of gas. I would never run any thing that "needs" 91/93 On the street as pump gas is very bad gas. Even in my toys that need higher octane, I only buy it in cans or run 100ll. Yes it cost more, but I know what I am getting, has is cheap compared to say a decent boat motor.
True, the station where I pumped gas, like most, mixed high test with low octane fuel for their four grades of fuel. The owner could set the mix ratio... This was nearly thirty years ago but it still questionable.
More good reasons I'll stick with 91 Octane Premium in my new Toyota.... It probably is only 89 actual Octane. We can't get non Ethanol motor fuel in Phoenix. And racing fuel can sell for up to $10.00 @ gallon. When I lived in Lake Havasu City, a few stations in town had "Racing Fuel". The weekend boaters from California would fill their boats with it. I used it in my bikes. At the time it was $2.00 @ gallon when Premium sold for around a buck.
-
TAB’s too young to remember Sunoco’s 104 octane leaded from the seventies! We ran it in everything at about 50 cents a gallon! I could fill up my 65 Mustang with loose change found under the seats!
Ha!!!
-
No, but I remember the since 100 at the pump. CARB finally killed that off. Use to drive 13.2 miles each way too fill up the twin turbo stang. I needed 1.25 gallons too make it there. Back 2hen every smog check the only thing that remained under the hood was the brake booster
-
TAB’s too young to remember Sunoco’s 104 octane leaded from the seventies! We ran it in everything at about 50 cents a gallon! I could fill up my 65 Mustang with loose change found under the seats!
Ha!!!
We have several stations that still sell ethanol-free gas at around .30 per gallon higher across the board. One station calls it Marine gas and adds an extra .20 on top of that. I run that in my older truck that runs less and sits more and in my mowers. Non-ethanol helps prevent moisture in sitting fuel tanks.
We have one station that sells 100 octane fuel and the pump is locked and you have to get an attendant to unlock it.
My newer truck will run on the E85 (older one would too, but I never did it) but I stick to regular 87 with no issues unless towing our camper in the summer. Then I run 91 with no issues.
-
Non-ethanol helps prevent moisture in sitting fuel tanks.
This stuff works really well. And it helps get rid of any moisture in the fuel system. I throw a can in each tank in my truck every so often. It passes emissions with flying colors.
https://gumout.com/multi-system-tune-up/
-
I've seen non-ethanol REC-90, 90 octane recreational vehicle gas, at a gas station 150 miles away. It was really expensive, quite a bit more than 91 octane premium, but I can't recall the exact amount. So I saved 70 cents per gallon, or whatever it was, and filled my ATV with 10% ethanol 87 octane as usual, and have never had a problem with it in 20 years of riding. According to Wikipedia there are only 7 states that sell REC-90, but some others sell general ethanol-free gas. In most of the states with REC-90 there are only 1 or 2 stations in the whole state that sell it. Michigan has 19 of the total 37 stations, and Florida has 9.
In a consumer notice, the Federal Trade Commission, notes: “In most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner’s manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won’t make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner.” The only guaranteed result of using premium gasoline in an engine designed for regular-grade fuel is that you will spend more money on gas. I'll keep using the 87 octane my truck is designed for, and spend the $18 or so I save on each tankful to buy something useful, like more ammo, or food.
P.S. I only gas up once a month if I'm not gone on vacation. I'll be getting 75 cents per gallon off if I gas up before the end of the month, and 95 cents off per gallon next month.
-
Come to the hot, humid south and you'd change your mind on higher octane if you tow anything with some weight to it. The higher octane gas is designed to prevent engine knock and pinging (detonation) when under load in higher temps. In the owner's manual of my truck it states to run higher octane when towing if you experience knock. In my 2003 truck, when towing a 5500lb camper in 90°+ temps I would get some slight knock when accelerating and going up longer hills. Switching to 89 octane solved the issue.
-
Most modern cars and trucks will automatically retard the ignition so you don't have knocking, as long as you're using the recommended gas. I've read my owner's manual front to back and don't recall it saying anything about using higher octane gas under any circumstances. But I'm not going out tonight to get the manual out of my truck to check.
The heaviest trailer I ever towed in the summer was built with 2 mobile home axles, but I don't think it needed such heavy duty axles. It could only hold 5 ATVs, so it probably didn't have much more than 2 tons on it, plus the weight of the trailer itself. I have no idea how much the trailer weighs but I can't pick up the tongue when it's empty. And it towed like a dream, like I wasn't even pulling anything.
-
True that engine management systems retard the timing, but this can cause power loss which is bad when towing. The one benefit of higher octane fuel is that it actually burns slower, allowing the timing to not be retarded and remain in the better power band while also preventing pre-ignition and knock (which can damage an engine if excessive or continuous).
If your vehicle cannot use the higher octane fuel, it won't benefit from it.
Something to remember about octane ratings is, the higher number does not mean it is more energy dense. The higher number indicates the fuel is actually harder to burn. This seems counter intuitive, but it makes sense if you think about it. Higher octane fuel is used to counteract pre-ignition or knocking. This condition occurs when the fuel spontaneously ignites (before intended) due to any of several reasons before the proper ignition spark occurs. This makes the noise which we commonly call "pinging" or "knocking" and can cause damage to an engine if it happens too often and too much.
Since electronic fuel injection became relatively standard, pre-ignition happens much less often. Knock sensors, which detect the knock, will pull timing from the ignition. When this happens, the power output is brought down as well. If your engine experiences pre-ignition while towing in certain conditions, it will definitely have more power from higher octane fuel than if the ignition is pulling timing.
While the higher octane fuel is not giving it more power directly. If the engine needs it, the higher octane fuel will provide the means for the engine to maintain the power it should normally have by allowing the timing to remain advanced. Pre-ignition can occur due to greater stress on the engine, towing is a prime example of greater stress, especially when doing so up an incline or in higher temperatures.
-
My new Toyota say's 87 Octane MINIMUM fuel is required. Out here, especially in the Summer I like to use more than just the minimum. So I'll most likely run 89 or 91. This thing is unbelievable on fuel. Coming home from the dealer it averaged 41.3 MPG. So for the little amount it burns, I'll most likely go with 91.
-
At Wally World last night and saw plenty of 0W-20 from everyone, Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, etc...
-
At Wally World last night and saw plenty of 0W-20 from everyone, Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, etc...
Yeah, ours has it too.
I remember thinking when I first saw it, "What in the heck uses oil that thin?" It's almost like air tool oil, like 3-in-1 oil. ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Yeah, ours has it too.
I remember thinking when I first saw it, "What in the heck uses oil that thin?" It's almost like air tool oil, like 3-in-1 oil. ;D ;D ;D ;D
It’s right next to Mobil 1 and Royal Purple 5W-20 I buy for both my vehicles and I never noticed till this thread brought it up!
-
The last place I lived I popped the motor out of the furnace and lubed it every year. I have a can of SAE 20 3-IN-ONE Motor Oil that I bought specifically for it. Regular 3-IN-1 oil is only about SAE 5 weight from what I've pieced together online.
https://www.amazon.com/3-IN-ONE-Motor-Oil-3-oz/dp/B0083V8MMG
-
Our machine shop used to buy air tool oil by the 55 gallon drum. It smelled just like 3-in-1 oil but wasn't labeled as such.