The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: 4dailyrunner on August 29, 2009, 10:14:03 AM
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Hello:
First of all, I suspect many of the regulars get tired of the "...what should I buy" threads. I appreciate your patience. Please let me thank you for your consultations in advance, if you choose to comment. I have been a "read-only" member for a while, recently joined, and wanted to follow up on a lot of the research I have read.
I am in the market for a 45 acp pistol. This is what I narrowed down. (No order of preference intended). I know there is no perfect handgun. I suspect my resources will allow only one. 'Would like to get it right the first time. My intended purpose is a range gun and home personal defense.
1 - Springfield XD 45
2 - Sig P220
3 - FNP 45
4 - HK45
It looks as though the price for this group is $500 -> $1000 USD.
1 - XD45: People love it. There is lots of accessories in the after market. (Shot a rental)
2 - SigP220 : A Classic favorite with "merely" 8 rnd magazine. There are some rumors of an ejector problem on some of the newer ones. (...no rentals available in my area.)
3 - FNP 45 : Accuracy and light felt recoil. BIG. Good price. Rather unknown. I would definately need the small backstrap. (Held at counter. No rental available)
4 - HK 45 : Accuracy , dependability, and durability. Expensive Vendor is not friendly to civilian market. Parts and mags are largely more expensive. After market is limited. (shot a rental in Full and compact sizes.)
Thanks for your thoughts.
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4dr
:)
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Hello 4dr, and welcome to the DRTV Forum. None of us here will ever get tired of discussing .45's. (If anyone says they do, they are lying.) Since you narrowed it down to three, but listed four, we'll go with that.
All the ones you listed are full size, and have their pros and cons. IMHO.
Start in reverse order HK.45 : Sweet and overpriced. Not the best reports of customer service.
FNP .45, Nice right out of the box, reliable, priced right, but it is BIG. (FWIW, I have the FN9, Not 1 issue ever,..)
SigP220, Know the customer service is great (Sig556 rifle owner), but the best I can offer is this review. Little overpriced but read the review.
http://www.christiangunowner.com/sigsauerp220.html
XD-45, It's a Springfield, Out of the box reliability, it was a toss up for me between the XD-40, and the M+P, I chose the M+P for the ambi features, and the grip felt better to me.
Did you look at the M+P .45?
With ammo prices the way they are for .45 I would go with the FNP, or XD, you do not get any extras but higher price with the other two.
Just my .02 cents. Ultimately it's up to what fits your hand, eyes, weight, and features, FOR YOU. Good list.
What do you plan for your choice? SD, competition, CCW, ? Let us know it will help.
TW
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Here is my opinon, for what little it's worth. I would go with the Springfield. In addition to being a great gun (so are the others) they provide a nice hard case, holster, mag pouch, etc. with purchase a real good value. Now as someone who as been shooting a while and carrying a while too that will not be your only holster! However, it will get you going.
More importantly the Sig, and HK while quality guns (I have no experience with the FN so I will not comment on that gun) both have decockers, or external safety mechanisms. I do not like personal defense guns that have those features. If you aren't well trained and practiced you may forget to disengage the safety or what have you and not get a shot off when you need to. I am a big fan of revolvers for this reason as well as many others. (Hence the "Wheelgun" moniker) Anyway, the striker fired guns such as the Springfield and glock share this no external safety characteristic with the revolver. Draw the gun and pull the trigger. A gross motor movement, not a fine motor movement. Much easier to rely on under stress. Anyway I also like that they have consistent trigger pull not a traditional double action long first shot short subsequent shots. Never sat well with me. Good luck and you'll have fun no matter what you buy! Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. By the way welcome to the forum, crazy bunch of folks.
Wheelgun
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I think I have to follow TW's lead on this. Both the FN & XD would top my list. Get the one that feels best to you.
Having said that, and being a 1911 fan, have you considered a double stack 1911 from Para Ordnance?
Here's a Kahr that is at the edge of your price range that would make a heck of home defense choice. ;D
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52708 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52708)
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HK customer service is down right terrible, they do not want to deal with you for one crummy pistol, they do not support gun rights, they only want to deal with PD's and other Govt Agencies. Also, they have been installing RFID chips in some of their pistols, this could be a security issue for you.
Sig is a fine pistol made in this state, but the XD or FNP will both give you more rounds for less cost. While MB raves about his FNP, you have actually gotten to shoot the XD, so unless one has a feature you need that would be my choice of the ones you listed.
Welcome to the forum and don't worry, We NEVER get tired arguing about guns ;D
And since you seem to have already eliminated Glock, you can ignore Ericire's post that will be coming up ;D
I think I have to follow TW's lead on this. Both the FN & XD would top my list. Get the one that feels best to you.
Having said that, and being a 1911 fan, have you considered a double stack 1911 from Para Ordnance?
Here's a Kahr that is at the edge of your price range that would make a heck of home defense choice. ;D
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52708 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52708)
Ichiban has a good point, there really is only ONE platform for the .45 ACP, I was handling a couple of "high Cap" Para .45's yesterday and the grip was nowhere NEAR as bulky as I expected, it was in fact quite comfortable.
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Hello 4DR and welcome!
My picks would be the XD 45 or the FNP 45. Either is an excellent choice for the reasons already mentioned. I also would put a premium on the "knowns", if you will. You have shot the XD and how did that feel to you? If you weren't really impressed with the way it felt while firing it, then you should pass on it. Concerning the SIG, pick it up and see if you can reliably and easily use your strong-side thumb (assuming you are right handed) to de-cock the pistol. If you can not do that easily, I would consider the other pistols. And here's the text of a review of the FNP by Gun Tests magazine from their April 2009 issue:
FNH USA FNP45 USG No. 47938 45 ACP, $780
The FNP45 USG was the highest-capacity gun in the test. Two 14-round magazines with flat basepads arrived with our USG plus an additional magazine with rounded basepad set to hold 15 rounds. Each magazine body was buffed for fast handling and added resistance to collecting grime. Despite its 4.5-inch barrel and full-size stature, the USG made 15+1 rounds of 45 disappear. Unloaded weight was 29 ounces, and we really liked the military green frame that FNH refers to as Flat Dark Earth. The slide was black as were complements of the trigger, the ambidextrous magazine release buttons, and the ambidextrous safeties, which doubled as decocking levers. So were the slide latch on the left side and the slide release latches available from either side.
The frame offered a four-slot accessory rail on the dust cover, and beveled edges were molded into the magazine well. We found molded checkering on each side of the grip to be effective, as were the horizontal lines in the front strap. The backstrap was interchangeable with one alternate panel. Both panels offered horizontal lines. One panel was flat in profile, while the other provided a mild palm swell. Our staff was unanimous in choosing the flatter profile for our tests.
The gun was beefy and wide, but in the hand the USG felt smaller than its square profile and 1.56-inch maximum width. The slide was topped with snagfree sights that carried three white dots. The dots were boldly countersunk to keep them clean, but the excess depth made them appear as though they were night sights, but that was not the case. The rear unit had no sharp edges and a narrow taper. Its rear face was lined to reduce glare.
Removing the top end required the least work of our pistols. Lock back the slide, rotate the slide latch and slide the top end from the frame. Changing out the backstrap was even less demanding. A 1/16-inch punch was supplied to press into a small hole in the backstrap and release the locking tab. The panel slid off without effort.
Operating the FNH USA USG pistol brought us quickly to several conclusions. First, whenever the slide was locked back, it was more efficient to pull the slide to the rear and let it forward than it was to try to press down on the tiny release levers. Second, there was no fear whatsoever of accidentally decocking this pistol. The thumb of the strong hand, be it the left or right hand, had immediate access to the safety/decocker lever. The USG sat deeply into the grip, so the edge of the hand outside of the first knuckle fit neatly beneath the safety-decocker lever on the opposite side of the pistol. There was plenty of room to move the lever to the down off-safe position, but there was no danger that it would be moved further downward and decock the pistol accidentally.
Next, we found that the slide could be worked with the thumb safeties activated and held in the upward position. This meant that mechanically, the safeties were deactivating the trigger but not locking the action of the slide as it did in the CZ pistol. The HK 45C also allowed the slide to move freely with the safety on, but the trigger was locked. The FN pistol not only left the slide free to move but also the trigger was able to swing freely all the way back to the frame. Advantages to this design may be the ability to load the chamber or perform a press check more safely.
Firing the pistol in transition from double to single action was smooth but sluggish, in our view. The circumference of the grip limited the ability of most of our staff from getting a really strong purchase of the trigger when it was resting in its double-action mode. This was reflected in several 3-second elapsed times during our transition drill. Larger hands would have little trouble, in our view, but we found the safety to be so accessible and efficient we think this gun will most likely be carried cocked and locked, hammer back ready for single-action only fire.
From the bench our USG delivered 2.2-inch-wide groups with whatever ammunition we tried. This was not as tight as the other pistols but the gun seemed to thrive best on heavy ammunition. It soaked up recoil, and we enjoyed shooting the Hornady 230-grain TAP +P high-pressure loads in the FN more than we did from our other pistols.
The FNH FNP45 USG proved to be a formidable high-capacity weapon. It did a great job of hiding a big pile of ammunition, delivered it comfortably and offered a true mechanical safety. Simplified field-stripping and low maintenance add currency to this recommendation.
They usually assign a letter grade to their recommendations and the FNP received an A-, the highest rated of that test.
I hope this helps! And good luck!
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Not trying to argue with anyone here. I've not shot any of these guns but I have researched them all at one time or another.
The Sig does have a decocker but does not have a safety of any kind. The decocker is just for dropping the hammer to safe the pistol and make the guns first trigger pull double action and any subsequent SA. The XD can be bought with a thumb safety and has similar controls to a 1911 pistol. Other than that, it's a foreign manufactured gun (Croatia). I think the FN is made in America and H&K is made overseas. Correction...the XD no longer has the thumb safety option available...
Of those four, I probably wouldn't buy any other than the Sig. Though I don't own one personally, there are three in the basement safe that I'm quite familiar with and they're made from American sweat and talent!
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FN is made in Columbia SC
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/
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FN is made in Columbia SC
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/
I thought so, thanks Tom.
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This may come as a surprise, but I own a Sig P220 and love it - style, finesse, accurate, feels great int he hand, and loads of fun. That would be my #1.
#2 would be the XD, but I don't own one.
My $0.02 on the increasingly mis-named "I narrowed it down to three 45's" thread listing four .45s.
Thank you Doulas Adams . . . ;)
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I like the XD that comes with the kit , dbl mag ,holster , hard case, pretty sweet combo package, would be my choice. ;D
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Wow,
Thanks for all the replies.
three four ... ::) 1000 pardons. I missed that in the edit.
I hadn't considered the para ordinance, 1911. No reason. I just didn't know anything about it. I guess my original "requirements" included DA/SA and Decocker and "Safe Handling" configuration ... not necessarily a manual safety. I wanted at least a 4" barrel. High capacity isn't a primary concern, but I would rather shoot at the range than re-load magazines.
The Kahr 45 ACP 50 ... ;D ;D ;D ...nice. ...not right now.
It is not my intention to "troll" for an argument of brand. I tried the Glock 22 in 40 S&W. If I wanted 40 S&W vs 45 ACP, I would have that on a short list. The Glock 21 was too big for my hand. Apparently, the new models of G21's modified the grip for 45 acp. In my hands, it was unmanageable. I prefer full size for 45 ACP. I'll come back to this.
S&W M&P was considered. { I am not a fan of the Smith and Wesson company. }
My intentions: Range and Target use is what I am enjoying right now. I may want to compete but can't see it getting to a point where I am looking for a sponsor :) . If it does, they can buy me the "next one" ...wink! There is the home defense and CCW aspect. My perceived "risk profile" ( as they say...) is on par with everyone else. I guess I would say "Hobby and Personal Defense" are the best words, right now. I like to shoot rifles and pistols.
Full Sized 45 ACP: I shot and liked the XD 45. I like the basic, "old school" function of the FNP 45. I didn't have the opportunity to shoot the FNP 45 which is the strongest point of my dilemma. I guess it has become a choice of either these two in my current budget.
Thanks for your comments.
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4dr
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This may come as a surprise, but I own a Sig P220 and love it - style, finesse, accurate, feels great int he hand, and loads of fun. That would be my #1.
#2 would be the XD, but I don't own one.
My $0.02 on the increasingly mis-named "I narrowed it down to three 45's" thread listing four .45s.
Thank you Doulas Adams . . . ;)
Its for extremely large values of three, Path. ;D
FQ13
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ummm.. why is Glock not on your list ?... lol ::) Thats what I would get.. but anyway out of the ones you mentioned.. umm I'd probably go for the XD or the Sig... maybe then the FNH.. H&K's are okay shoot good..but as a company they just don't like you unless your law enforcement or military... and frankly I don't like that. Maybe you should go to a gunstore/show and see which one feels best to you and go with that.
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I have both the XD and the FN and they are both great. I have no experience with the other two.
If you can't decide and they both feel equally good in your hand, the FN is made in the USA!!!!!!
I prefer the FN, felt recoil is much less than the XD. They are both a little large for iwb but are about the same for owb carry.
They both will eat any and all ammo with never a malfunction, the FN is easier, hugely simple, to field strip and clean, night sights on the XD, the FN customer service folks will send to you free Goodies (tshirt, hat pins, SCAR commerative coin and a PS90 keychain when I bought a PS90) if you send a note with your warranty card asking where you can purchase them, ...
They are both great, I am getting excited now, I will have to take both out in the yard tomorrow !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got a Colt lightweight commander yesterday, I will have to shoot all three.
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I have both the XD and the FN and they are both great. I have no experience with the other two.
If you can't decide and they both feel equally good in your hand, the FN is made in the USA!!!!!!
I prefer the FN, felt recoil is much less than the XD. They are both a little large for iwb but are about the same for owb carry.
They both will eat any and all ammo with never a malfunction, the FN is easier, hugely simple, to field strip and clean, night sights on the XD, the FN customer service folks will send to you free Goodies (tshirt, hat pins, SCAR commerative coin and a PS90 keychain when I bought a PS90) if you send a note with your warranty card asking where you can purchase them, ...
They are both great, I am getting excited now, I will have to take both out in the yard tomorrow !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got a Colt lightweight commander yesterday, I will have to shoot all three.
I have the Springfield XD .40 Grip safety . If you hold it in you grip the safety is off. As far as knock down power, I put it ahead of the .45 ACP (where can I hide so I don't get hit with rotten veggies). My XD is very reliable, has good sights and is one of the few guns I can actually hit something with shooting better than throw the gun at it. ;D Easy to fild strip too. Ammo for targets is reasonable. $12.97 a box of 50 with 180 gr clad solid. Seems more and more LE is going to it as well.
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I would choose one that I could get a .22 conversion unit for (unless you already have a quality .22 or something with a conversion unit). That being said, I don't know if any you have chosen has a conversion unit available.
JMHO
Richard
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Thanks for the suggestion.
I own and practice with a Ruger Mark II (22 LR), Stainless Steel, 6" Target Barrel, Slab Sides. Very nice shooter.
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4dr
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I've got a Sig P220, fantastic weapon, no problems ever. The eight round, some times called a 'limitation', magazine is plenty for most situations. And I've found that speed reloads, in a nonshooting situation are faster than any double stack I've used, but that's just me. For features and functions I think it'd be hard to beat, but it is expensive. If money was no object to you I'd get the P220.
But I agree with the other folks, for you it sounds like the XD is the way to go. The P220 is probably the safer of the two, and more proven, but the XD's I've shot are solid and worked great. Price is right too, from a solid company, and the simple operation is better for a non expert, indeed I intend on buying one sometime. I kind of feel that if you really wanted wanted the P220 you would know absolutely for sure. But I would stay away from HK.
Where you looking at a service model in 5" or 4", 4" carry, or 3" compact?
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The XD would be my choice because i really like the SPRINGFEILD line up. My cousin was here for 3 weeks before he ship out and bought one with a good supply of mags. Its been 6 months since and he said that he would buy 10 more.
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Sig P220.
Where you looking at a service model in 5" or 4", 4" carry, or 3" compact?
Thanks for the input.
Sig P220 - much like the FN product, I haven't had a chance to shoot a P220. I had the opportunity to look one over in the store.
Barrel Length Question: I was looking in the 4" to 4.5" range. All service or CCW types were considered.
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;D ;D ;D ;D
I picked up the XD 45 tonight.
Thanks for all you help.
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4dr
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Cool, Post pics ;D
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Cool, Post pics ;D
Not optional!!! ;)
Please shoot us a range review also when you get the chance. Hope your happy with you new XD, I'm sure you will be.
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Congrats!!!
Pics, we need pics!!! 8)
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;)
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Well I was working on my reply so I will post anyway. All the guns are excellent choices.
I would seperate into the two price points high and low. In the low I lean slightly to the FNH bacause it is so smooth but Springfield's warranty is one of the best available and FNH has an "implied" (their word not mine) 5 year warranty. So with my wallet I would go with the Springfield and complain about the gun I did not buy, a problem I always have.
I have a Sig P220 (Equinox) and it is an excellent handgun. I have a few Sigs and they have NEVER failed to be reliable, accurate, and fun to shoot. Recently however H&K has been replacing Sig in my EDC and overall predference. It just feels good and you can feel the quality.
Lastly, lately there are just as many customer service horror stories about Sig as H&K. Sig has gotten worse and H&K better. Also as others have said a decocker is not a safety and if you can have a DA trigger on a revolver then the first DA shot should not bother you. My experience in competition is that when the buzzer goes off you will rarely notice the transition from DA to SA. I imagine that that would be the same in a life or death situation of which I thankfully have no knowledge.