The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => Michael Bane on the Radio => Topic started by: Michael Bane on February 20, 2007, 12:41:59 PM
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The overriding question right now is where we go from here.
This weekend we "tipped." The on-going tensions between the hunting and the shooting sides of the overall firearms market, which I have been reporting on since I started this blog three years ago, boiled over, and for the very first time, the shooting side of the market flexed its muscles.
And suddenly the whole industry now understands what we have known for years — we are the tail wagging the dog.
There were hints of this at the SHOT Show this year. You couldn't walk the floor in Orlando without a sense that a profound change was underway. The "buzz" was all about black rifles, with the new military pistols and precision rifles following behind. It reminded me of the SHOT Shows in the early 1980s, when the tsunami of practical shooting swept the handgun industry. One year we couldn't even get an appointment with major handgun execs...the next, we're being fetted and the floor is awash in trick 1911s.
There were other market indicators that were consistently overlooked:
• Ammo sales — In recent years, it's .223, 7.62 X 39, .308, with the "traditional" calibers falling behind.
• Parts and accessories sales — In the last 12 months, AR-platform parts and accessories have swamped even the huge 1911 P&A market.
• Major manufacturer participation — S&W successfully launches their M&P AR-15; SIGARMS successfully launches their 556; more announcements are scheduled for later this year.
• Expanded competition opportunities — The explosive growth of 3-gun matches and carbine/rifle precision matches is on the way to recreating a "nation of riflemen (and women)."
• The widespread acceptance of black rifles as a home self-defense tool — this is huge; I'm a convert myself.
• Demand for carbine training courses — Through the ceiling across the country...the shooting academies are packin' 'em in for black rifle classes.
• Expanded caliber offerings — Yes, it was obvious even before Sunday that black rifles were moving decisively into the game fields. From exotics like .30-06 tpo the various .458s, to the WSSM cartridges, the AR platform has proven to be amazingly adaptable.
One point I've made before and I want to make very strongly again is that Jim Zumbo didn't say a single thing I haven't heard before from other "hook and bullet" writers. Such writings and statements are, indeed, based on an ignorance of how the market is shifting.
That ignorance is dangerous. Take a look at USA Today's article this AM: http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070220/1a_lede20.art.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070220/1a_lede20.art.htm)
Police needing heavier weapons
Chiefs cite spread of assault rifles
By Kevin Johnson
USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Law enforcement agencies across the country have been upgrading their firepower to deal with what they say is the increasing presence of high-powered weapons on the streets.
Scott Knight, chairman of the Firearms Committee of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, says an informal survey of about 20 departments revealed that since 2004 all of the agencies have either added weapons to officers' patrol units or have replaced existing weaponry with military-style arms.
Knight, police chief in Chaska, Minn., says the upgrades have occurred since a national ban on certain assault weapons expired in September 2004. The ban, passed in 1994, in part prohibited domestic gunmakers from producing semi-automatic weapons and ammunition dispensers holding more than 10 rounds.
There is a new AWB being considered in Congress, and while this one will likely go nowhere, no one I've talked to believes this will be the last one floated out...especially if a Democrat is elected President in 2008.
Black rifles and their "kin" — .50 BMG guns, long-range precision rifles (aka "sniper" gun), "assault pistols," etc. — will be the RKBA battleground for the forseable future. It is also the primary area of growth, where the new shooters (and, honestly, the new hunters) will come from.
I believe — or maybe I hope — that the industry is now ready to step up to the facts and accord us both the respect and the equal funding our side of the market deserves. That's what I'm hearing.
That's the happy talk part; here's the ugly part. The reason hook and bullet writers have been able to get away with saying such things is through the tacit approval of the people who drive that side of the industry. That has to stop. Remington and Cabela's have taken a huge step in the right direction by disavowing the Jim Zumbo comments; the big boys, Mossy Oak, Realtree and the like, now need to step up and add their voices for unity. The hunting lobbying groups need to make it clear that an attack on one is an attack on all...that there is no difference between an AR-15 and a fine Perazzi shotgun when it comes to the firearms community; that the community will no longer tolerate a discussion on which baby should be thrown off the lifeboat.
I think we're at a watershed moment, and it's up to us to make that moment count. I am profoundly sorry that it was Jim Zumbo who fell under the bus, but every one of us who writes for a living understand that we live and die by those words we write. I was told that by my very first editor when I wrote my first newspaper article for publication in 1968; nothing has changed now except the speed at which we're all judged — and the absence of that "editor" who might caution moderation on our part.
It's scary to reach a tipping point and see how quickly things change. I believe we are now in the driver's seat...where are we going?
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Excellent, Michael, excellent.
People like you, in the know, personal relationships with a bunch of bigwigs at the name companies, need to work those relationships.
Mopes like me need to make our presence and interests known to the corporations through our purchases, and even our emails, letters, and even blogs like this.
The issue, which you touched on, is HOW to get us to all sing from the same hymnal. I think a lot of us shooters don't have a problem with that. I think the so-called "hook and bullet" people are the ones we have to reach.
Ideas anyone?
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Mossy Oak has repudiated itself from Zumbo, his comments, and has "ended all ties".
http://www.mossyoak.com/content.asp?id=1460&catID=153§ion=hc
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"Jim Zumbo Outdoors" was preempted today on the Outdoor Channel. I tuned in just to see if there was going to be a statement, and some other hunting show was on. They pulled the plug on the show already?
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Michael: Drop by the OWAA website and see what was put up on their blog about this situation. Their writer is far more concerned about the 1st Amendment than the 2nd. Obviously he didn't got the message that was sent this weekend.
All The Best,
Frank W. James
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Jim
The sheriff's deputies in our small WV county have been toting Colt Commandos and Bushmaster M-4 selective fire rifles since 2001 when they were on the wrong end of a gunbattle with a barricaded idiot.
He didnt have battle rifles..he had a 30-30, a taurus 44 mag wheelgun and a 12 ga shotgun.
I really don't think it's so much that they are scared, as it is that there's all kinds of Homeland Security grants out there to be had for nice black rifles.
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The police have been heavily armed for years, more than a decade. Back in the 80's I think it was, when the police started to be militarized, the DoD dumped thousands of black rifles, mostly of the M-16A1 and A2 as I recall, into the hands of police agencies across the US. There was a report of one police dept. that had more black rifles than it had officers (small town in NE I think).
I'm not sure on all the details as I do not have access to my files. The USAToday article is just a step in the gun-grabbers bag of tricks to make gun confiscation and prohibition "reasonable". And wait, it will be all about protecting the children too. And all of this aided and abbetted by the likes of Zumbo. Moron.
Anyone else think that maybe alcohol was involved before he blogged?
We will be undoing his damage for years to come, if we can even get it undone. Very sad. Very unnecessary.
Michael's right, though, we have got to stand together on this, and make every damn politician aware of our wrath when they come to take our rights away.
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I remember back in the late 90s, the Jackson County WV sheriff's department got M-14 rifles, with ten mags and a cleaning kit with each rifle, for $45 each. >:(
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The article in USA Today is the start of the war on our guns again. Okay, maybe not the start, but it is not good. Here they are saying that these rifles have come into common use for criminals since the ban ended. So draw a line, we should put the ban back in place, with extra measures.
Michael is right, we have to stand together, every last one. I have had a similar 'fight' with my dad. He prefers his traditional hunting rifles, and can't see why anyone would need an AR. I still hunt with mine anyway, and he just stopped poking me about it. He did get the message when I was able to convince him that after they come for mine, his sniper weapons would be next.
-Bidah
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It does seem that we have reached a tipping point in the industry. The important thing is to make this a positive change for the better. Unfortunately, it's going to be difficult to do. Like any family, our interests are diverse and sometimes it's going to be like herding cats. This is true even for the shooting side of the sport. Look at the differences between IDPA, Cowboy Action and High Power shooting. I say this not to be pessimistic, but just to remind us that we need to keep pushing foward despite the minor set backs we may encounter.
In regards to making the industry listen, the only real way is to do it with money. The manufacturers are there to make a profit and stay in business, specially with publicly owned companies like Smith & Wesson. They aren't going to do anything unless it positively effects their bottom line.
We need to make them recognize how their companies are benefiting from the shooters and the volume of firearms, gear and ammunition that they buy. I also think that we need to be more assertive of what kind of products we would like to see them produce. It seems to me, that every year companies produce dozens of new firearms on a random basis and what sells they keep and what doesn't, they get rid of. (Maybe Michael can shed a little light on if there's any method to this madness.) We should also let retailers like Cabela's know that there is room for both the hunters and shooters in their store and that often these people are one in the same or at least share common interests. This might even provide the opportunity for a little education of the hook and bullet crowd.
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Zumbo didn't fall under the bus. He waved the bus down and then chose to jump under it rather than onto it.
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I am glad that we are all on the same page on this one,we need to contact all of our elected officials and keep the positive pressure on them,if they stray then the pressure must become immense and immediate Doug
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Zumbo isn't a 'moron', as somebody or other suggested.
He was just the product of his times.
My own father, "Pop", would have agreed with him.
Born in 1911, Pop started hunting alone before he reached his teen years. He got his family through the depression with deer, poached with a Winchester '98 in 30-30. I still have it in the closet, right here [tap-tap]
When I started shooting IPSC in '83, I showed him what 'combat pistol shooting' was about. He wasn't impressed. He would have been more impressed with Jeff Cooper's "There ain't much that a man can't fix, with seven hundred dollars and a thirty-ought-six".
Pop started waking me up at 5am to go hunting when I was 12, and for the next 30 years we spent a lot of lovely weekends together not worrying much about whether we got meat. (I don't think I ate beef at home until I moved out on my own.) He custom-built rifles, usually war-surplus 1903-A3 Springfields, and I always had a beautifully stocked bespoke gun. My favorites were a 30-06 with a Rock Maple stock (he sold it out from under me in 1963, the scoundrel) and a 25-06 on the A3 frame in another beautiful blond maple ... which he built for my mother, but I inherited (and still have!) when she decided she didn't like to "kill Bambi".
Pop thought of rifles when he thought of guns. He only owned two handguns; a 1911 Colt and a Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Magnum when we decided to hunt Antelope with handguns. We never hit one, but we sure had a lot of fun working up the hunting load and trying to mount a 2x Burris scope on his Ruger so that the recoil wouldn't break the scope loose from the mounts. When he finally managed a firm mount (using gooey gobs of glass-bedding compound), the cross-hairs broke loose after a half-dozen sighting shots.
He never saw an M16, but I used one for a while in Vietnam. We both considered them "poodle-shooters" although we had never heard the term in those early years. For my father, a rifle was a work of art. One of his hunting pals teased him about his fancy rifles, eliciting from Pop a Perfect Squelch: "Some folks drive Fords, some folks drive Cadillacs." At the time, he was breaking in a 7mm Magnum that he had built on a Sako action, having decided that the 6.5 x 55 just wasn't exciting enough, and the .338 was too exciting because he had to put a Muller Muzzle Brake on it so he could shoot it. (My ears are still ringing.)
The point is, his generation had a very strict definition of a "hunting rifle". It was probably a bolt-action, because he always shot hot loads. It was of a caliber specific to the game he was hunting. I almost fainted when he toyed with a composite stock for his planned hut in Alaska, but he was right because he came back with a mountain goat and a moose. I guess he knew what it took Robert Ruark a few Africa-years to learn: Use Enough Gun.
And the poodle-shooters didn't do it. When you shoot ground-hogs at 400 yards with a 22-250 under a 10X Leupold, the 5.56 M16 doesn't show you much.
So I know where Zumbo was coming from. He came from the "Bob The Nailer" generation. One shot, one kill ... no real man needed a semi-automatic and besides, those suckers are butt-ugly.
It was hubris that brought Zumbo down. He thought he knew everything there was to know about hunting, and that this was all anyone needed to know about shooting.
I'm sure he'll be very happy in his new career clerking in Jim's Gun Shop.
Darn shame, that.
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I read this twice. Damn nice, Jerry. Thanks.
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At one time I thought of Zumbo as well spoken and considerate. I was wrong. He is not. His opinion of certain firearms and their owners leaked out. He made it public. He called names that were not deserved or needed. While the power of the internet becomes obvious, it's more important to note that this difference between types of gun owners is going to be used against us all. We all have to watch what we say and do, as the "other" side is waiting to seize on any misstep.
In this new communication age, we have the chance to use information to our advantage, or disadvantage.
What would have happened to Ruger, if the Internet had been available when Bill the Elder produced his "how and why" letter on banning firearms and "high capacity feeding devices?'
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What would have happened to Ruger, if the Internet had been available when Bill the Elder produced his "how and why" letter on banning firearms and "high capacity feeding devices?'
Interesting question. If I am remembering right, he put that out before the ban, when a lot of us were not clearly seeing it, or what it would mean to us. I do think that what happened to Zumbo was not soley a product of the internet age. A great deal of it is pent up anger and emotion from people like me who lived through the ban, never thought it would end, and now will fight with every dime, every calorie of energy, every word we can utter, every boycott we can threaten to stop those who would bring it back. I have NOTHING but contempt for those who want to see the AWB back in any form. Those people are just as big an enemy of mine as Sarah Brady could ever hope to be.
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Over on the Outdoor Life website, www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/ , there is a note that Outdoor Life and Jim Zumbo have parted ways.
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Jerry...
Very well put (and I certainly expect no less from you!). It could have been my father as well. I have spent a lot ot time talking to a good friend of mine at OL, and they did the right thing in allowing him to resign.
I am putting together a piece that tries to stitch some of the pieces back together and maybe give a little better understanding on the gulf between shooters and hunters and how we might go abut mending it. I'll publish it here, of course.
I thnk the most important lesson learned by the industry — ALL of the industry — is that it is no longer acceptable to 'dis any group, period. It's an enforced lesson in hang together or hand separately!
Michael B
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His career is over pretty much..It died from an acute case of Fuddism. ;D
Seriously though..I figure he was a life long democrat, and since it's apparenty open season on all republicans and conservatives. he figured it was cool now to spewish his Fuddish belief and anti second amendment prejudices.
It's a shame, but he made his bed, let him sleep in it from now on.
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I am putting together a piece that tries to stitch some of the pieces back together and maybe give a little better understanding on the gulf between shooters and hunters and how we might go abut mending it. I'll publish it here, of course.
Michael -
I think I can safely say we are all looking forward to your article. Any education here (for me) will be nothing less than valuable.
My reference to "Moron" to which Jerry alluded was a reflection of my frustration with people - who should know much, much better - just not seeming to be able to grasp the realities in which we ALL live. With his background in hunting and firearms and the industry, Zumbo should have known - for a certainty - that his comments were and would be nothing less than counter-productive. The fact that he did not, his self-enforced ignorance, is inexcusable. It's one thing for your Dad or grandfather who is a hunter to not understand. But Zumbo? Not acceptible at all, as he is finding out.
I have hunted - mostly coyotes in eastern Wyoming oddly enough given that's where Zumbo's troubles began - but do not consider myself primarily a hunter. I am a shooter. I do not own a Remington 700. But I would never, on my worst day, ever disparage the 700 in print, nor would I attack their owners the way Zumbo attacked the owners of black rifles. What he did was equivalent (to me at least) of calling the 700 a ugly rifle and a sniper's weapon and should not be owned by anyone outside the military.
Thank you all for your insights and enlightenment into the "other" side of shooting sports with which I am admittedly not overly familiar.
So, Michael, we all wait eagerly for your thoughts. In the meantime, if I can get back home for any length of time, I think I need to do some politicing with my local gun club, which I am sad to say probably falls on the Zumbo side of the discussion.
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Taking Michael's suggestion, I just saw a blurb on NRA.org that Wal-Mart is removing all guns from 3 NH stores. If we turned this firestorm of indignation on Wal-Mart to tell them to stop caving in to the anit's that might be a start.
And don't forget to cc: your state and federal Senators and representatives when you contact Wal-Mart.
PS: anyone else notice how silent the NRA has been on Zumbo? Sad and unbelievable.
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Here's your answer on the NRA response. www.nraila.org/News/Read/Releases.aspx?ID=8952. They've severed all ties.
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dhouser -
Thanks. I searched the NRA HQ site, the parent site to the ILA site, and come up with old articles and shills for a new publication with an article by Zumbo. I did not search the ILA site, figuring (wrongly) that any response would come from the parent site.
From the first paragraph of the article: "Comments expressed by outdoor writer Jim Zumbo reflect neither the opinions of the National Rifle Association and America’s gun owners, nor are they an accurate portrayal of facts in regard to semi-automatic firearms lawfully owned by millions of citizens. Therefore, NRA Publications has suspended its professional ties with Mr. Zumbo. "
This is not a condemnation of Zumbo, simply a statement that NRA Publications has severed all ties. The rest of the press release, buried on ILA's website, is a weak statement regarding the impact of the response, IMHO. I expected NRA to do better.
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Taking Michael's suggestion, I just saw a blurb on NRA.org that Wal-Mart is removing all guns from 3 NH stores. If we turned this firestorm of indignation on Wal-Mart to tell them to stop caving in to the anit's that might be a start.
And don't forget to cc: your state and federal Senators and representatives when you contact Wal-Mart.
To be quite frank, Wal Mart is not "caving to the anti's" with their recent move to discontinue firearms sales in many stores. It's more about economics, raw dollars and cents. Fact is only some of their stores actually do well in regards to inventory turns and sales per square foot with guns. Those two factors are HUGE in Wal Mart's overall performance rating of stores/management and (here's the key) those factors are of the utmost importance to their profit generation. More of their profit is generated on volume of sales than on the margin dollars, therefore moving goods out of the store quickly is very important. If something sits too long on the shelf, Wal Mart is loosing. Sales floor space is a precious commodity that you don't want to waste on goods that are not moving out the door fast enough. Wal Mart prices most of their firearms as a loss leader with thin margins to pull customers in the door to hopefully buy that loss leader and a shopping cart of other items at a better profit margin.
In the case of Wal-Mart not selling guns, it would be better for the overall health of the industry (and one manufacturer in particular) if Wal Mart left the gun business. Not to bash Wal Mart, but I would equate their business model in relation to their suppliers to Sherman's march on Atlanta. A few years back Wal Mart returned several million dollars of firearm inventory to a vendor, this action wreaked havoc at the wholesale level and did considerable financial harm to a major manufacturer. On the consumer side Wal Mart's firearms selection is abysmal in regards to choice. Additionally, in much the same manner as substandard "gray" electronics deceive consumers, Wal Mart has been know to offer for sale "factory second" rifles to the public without disclosing them as such.
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Wal Mart has been know to offer for sale "factory second" rifles to the public without disclosing them as such.
What is your source or reference for that? Please let us know which of our manufacturers is unwise enough to let "factory second" firearms out the door to be sold by ANY retailer.
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Pathfinder, NRANews.com has been talking about Zumbo off and on for a couple of days. Don't know if they'll have much on it tonight, but it might be worth checking out. 9:00pm to midnight eastern time. I think the biggest concern was the use of the word "terrorist". Can't much say I like the idea of someone calling me a terrorist either.
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Where are we going? Maybe this is a sign: I checked the FNH site (fnhusa.com) and looked at their "precision" rifles. I counted 26 variations (barrel length, caliber, optic and bipod packages) of their two rifle models. For those who missed it, these are the current incarnations of the Winchester Model 70, which was discontinued last year. IIRC, Winchester had 46 models, each in multiple calibers, when the plug was pulled.
I realize there were other factors; old equipment, high labor costs, and licensing agreements in the Model 70 demise, but consider this: FNH can (apparently) make a profit selling to "shooters" but can't make one selling to "hunters". How long can an industry last if it insists on losing money on every transaction?
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What is your source or reference for that? Please let us know which of our manufacturers is unwise enough to let "factory second" firearms out the door to be sold by ANY retailer.
The source was from a retail dealer I sell to that had his suspicions verified by a former Wal Mart retail sporting goods department employee. The first specific example I encountered was from three years ago and the rifle in question had an odd serial number prefix stamp. I do not know how widespread the practice may be as I only know of a scant few real examples. However, given Wal Mart's (and to be honest many big box retailers) practice of using "gray" electronics and selling powertools with plastic gears rather than the standard metal gears I would not be surprised by anything.
On the matter of powertools, I have family in the carpentry trade and we have disassembled more than a few drills and saws from big box retailers that bore a cheaper price than those from the independent hardware store and found plastic gears and less copper winding in the motors. From the outside and the packaging the tools appear identical the differences were on the inside and some slight variations of the product codes buried deep on the outer labels.
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Where are we going? Maybe this is a sign: I checked the FNH site (fnhusa.com) and looked at their "precision" rifles. I counted 26 variations (barrel length, caliber, optic and bipod packages) of their two rifle models. For those who missed it, these are the current incarnations of the Winchester Model 70, which was discontinued last year. IIRC, Winchester had 46 models, each in multiple calibers, when the plug was pulled.
I realize there were other factors; old equipment, high labor costs, and licensing agreements in the Model 70 demise, but consider this: FNH can (apparently) make a profit selling to "shooters" but can't make one selling to "hunters". How long can an industry last if it insists on losing money on every transaction?
I wouldn't say the firearms industry on the whole is losing money on every transaction. Yes, bolt rifles sales are terribly soft, but as a whole, firearm industry profits are up over the past two plus years. Compare and contrast Smith & Wesson record profits and Dakota Arms bankruptcy.
The marketing strategy of new calibers to generate new rifle sales has, on the whole, proven to be a boondoggle creating excess inventory all the way up distribution channels. The firearms industry for years has run the marketing cart before the production horse. How many new guns have be trolled out only to never be delivered or delivered 12 to 18 months later after interest, demand, and excitement has withered and died?
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The source was from a retail dealer I sell to that had his suspicions verified by a former Wal Mart retail sporting goods department employee. The first specific example I encountered was from three years ago and the rifle in question had an odd serial number prefix stamp.
Walmart retail store department employee? Now THERE's a definitive source of information. ::)
This rumor surfaces on the boards every so often and is usually tracked to a "mom & pop" gun shop owner or employee somewhere who is saying it for rather obvious reasons of self-interest.
Now think about this for a second: Why on earth would Ruger, Remington, Marlin, etc. sell known "seconds" to Walmart for retail, when anyone with half a brain would realize that those guns will circulating for DECADES. No one is going to remember "My Walmart rifle was junk," they're going to remember "My RUGER rifle was junk." And so is the guy HE sells it to, and the guy HE sells it to, and so on.
You say you have knowledge of an odd serial number prefix stamp. Let's have some details--make, model, and the odd prefix itself. Let's see if we can track this down as TRUE or FALSE.
Rumor don't get it.
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Walmart retail store department employee? Now THERE's a definitive source of information. ::)
Rumor don't get it.
At the risk of feeding a troll...
Marlin 336 with a "W" prefix.
And to answer the "why sell a second" question...in my career I've had plenty of experience with seconds sent out of various factories as firsts for what I can only assume is either poor, incompetent, or non-existent QA inspections/controls. It happens weekly. Damaged stocks, rust, missing parts, slides that refuse to open, cylinders that will not turn, etc...
Take this "asleep at the wheel" example
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/diablosandwitch/QCextra.jpg)
A batch of revolvers left their warehouse without the barrel being swapped to the correct 2" version. What you see in the photo is a 3" barrel attached to satisfy import regulations that has not finished the machining process to make it a 2"
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Looks like something Napolean Solo might have used.............."open channel one" (for you oldies out there).
This is one way to increase muzzle velocity.
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At the risk of feeding a troll...
Marlin 336 with a "W" prefix.
And to answer the "why sell a second" question...in my career I've had plenty of experience with seconds sent out of various factories as firsts for what I can only assume is either poor, incompetent, or non-existent QA inspections/controls. It happens weekly. Damaged stocks, rust, missing parts, slides that refuse to open, cylinders that will not turn, etc...
First, I take offense at your name-calling.
Marlin 336 with a W prefix. Fine. NOW we have something to go on. I'll see if I can find anything about this.
Bad guns leave the factories? Oh, no question, junk gets out the doors all the time. Bad QA, stuff happens, whatever. I've bought a few of them myself. Some I fixed at home, at least one (a S&W purchased at full retail from a mom & pop shop) had to be returned to the factory. But I find it very difficult to believe that any gun manufacturer would knowingly and deliberately gather their "seconds" up and ship them off to any particular retailer, especially the nation's LARGEST one. A happy Walmart gun customer is likely to go looking for your brand when he wants to buy his next gun. Why on earth would anyone risk pissing such a customer off by KNOWINGLY selling him a second?
I'll check this out and if it turns out you're right, I'll happily come back here and apologize.
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Why on earth would anyone risk pissing such a customer off by KNOWINGLY selling him a second?
Ok, I'll retract the troll comment.
Simple answer, to make a sale.
Second simple answer, to get rid of it.
Third simple answer, make profit regardless.
Fourth less simple answer, they have the attitude that they will generally get away with it.
Certain aspects of business ethics travel along a disappearing curve the larger an organization becomes...
I realize you may just want to be a devil's advocate in order to quash rumors, or possibly, defend Wal Mart; however Pollyannaism is blind folly. No large corporation is as "good" or "well intentioned" as their PR works to make the public to perceive. The desire by some vendors to sell to Wal Mart makes them do things and cut deals that make ethics professors blush. In turn, the demands Wal Mart management places on vendors make ethics professors run to the hills screaming diablo propinquo.
Wal Mart is generally quite good for consumers, but hell on vendors.
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So far, a W prefix on a Marlin seems to indicate 1963 manufacture. Or maybe someone trying to "backdate" a newer gun into a collectible?
Found a couple interesting discussions elsewhere on does Walmart sell factory second guns or not:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176222
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-92019.html
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The serial number was not altered. A "W" was added as a prefix to the receiver's factory stampings, sorry I should have been more clear on the location of the stamp.
Let's pose a follow up question: would you consider a factory recondition a first quality item? Would you pay the same full price for a recondition or warranty repair item if you knew it's exact provenance?
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Let's pose a follow up question: would you consider a factory recondition a first quality item? Would you pay the same full price for a recondition or warranty repair item if you knew it's exact provenance?
You're dodging the issue, which is, does Walmart sell known factory second guns, as you accused them of? We are still absent proof one way or the other.
What do you speculate that W on the Marlin means--Walmart, or Warranty repair? ???
But just to answer your question: I consider my S&W M17 to be much more valuable after the factory "reconditioned" it than when it was brand new--it works now, which it didn't out of the box! ;)
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Michael -an excellent article and verywell done -
Jerry - you are right on man
Everyone else, we gotta do whatever it takes to bring the real story to light.
Crescendo
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You're dodging the issue, which is, does Walmart sell known factory second guns, as you accused them of? We are still absent proof one way or the other.
I believe they do. A factory second is customarily defined as a cosmetic blemish in the finish with no compromise of function. I am not saying they are trying to sell defective or broken guns. The risk of them selling a blemished gun as first quality is rather low.
They (and every other retailer worth their salt) look for advantages to buy goods at the lowest possible cost. Big Box Retailers actively seek out any advantage. How do I know you ask? Because I have received those calls looking for deals, closeouts, distressed merchandise, etc from big chains and independent dealers looking for some advantage.
Back to my point on ethics, proof would be difficult to obtain. Follow this example of the difficulty in obtaining proof of on a different Wal Mart deal: We all know they sell plain 870 Express pumps for less than the wholesale price. Remington will swear up and down that there is no special deal, they'll even show you invoices to Wal Mart detailing the unit price of 870's. Those invoices show the same price that is printed in the Remington wholesale pricelists. However what is unseen are the free goods that go along with the 870 Express order that lower the net cost of goods sold for Wal Mart and consequently lower the selling price. Free goods can be cases of 22 ammo or maybe cases of centerfire rifle ammo or possibly cases of shotshells. The result, Wal Mart sells a box of .270 ammo at 100% gross profit and an 870 Express at no gross profit.
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I don't believe I've ever bought a new gun of any kind that didn't have SOME sort of "cosmetic blemish" on it, if I looked hard enough. And I've never bought a gun at Walmart.
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I don't believe I've ever bought a new gun of any kind that didn't have SOME sort of "cosmetic blemish" on it, if I looked hard enough.
True enough, and those cosmetic flaws are usually good for an additional discount... On the topic, I would contend that we non-Fuddist types have been the dog rather than the tail for many years. It's just that most of the noise, until recently, has been emanating from the aft end of the dog.
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A Walmart I went to here in Colorado has removed all its guns. It had carried a display of long guns and shotguns. I'll try and visit or call other local stores tomorrow (my day off).
So, not just in NH stores. Trend? New policy? Important?
Overload in Colorado
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I know that Dickie Daley's henchmen in the Chicago and Cook County areas basically coerced a lot of stores into giving up their firearms, or dealing only in long guns. The Wal-Mart in Rolling Meadows, for instance, dropped all gun sales at one point. I haven't been back there in four years, but I doubt they started selling them again.
So maybe Wal-Mart, with all of its woes in Chicago (they can't open a store without being unionized and/or paying huge salaries with benefits), or due to gun sales (or lack thereof) just decided to remove one more obstacle in highly contentious locations.
In North Dakota, they sell long guns no problem.
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True enough, and those cosmetic flaws are usually good for an additional discount
Never works for me. For some reason, when I buy a gun, it's always a seller's market, take it or leave it.
Back in the '70s, I worked for a while at a big sporting goods chain that was not only a retailer for Remington and S&W, but a direct jobber for them as well. Those were the Smith-frenzy years. We took what we could get from them. We'd get some M29s and M59s and M66s and other cool stuff but for everything halfway interesting we got, we also had to take a dozen plain M10s and M36s. And also a buttload of the holsters they were pushing at the time, and their ammo, too. I think we even had to take some of their awful pump shotguns off their hands, too. We didn't sell THOSE to people we knew or liked. ;)
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Mr. Bane and all,
First of all, great site and thank you for allowing me aboard.
The Zumbo Syndrome Effect is still reverberating around the net and also the halls of Congress and many are watching and listening. If Mr. Ted Nugent does educate Mr. Zumbo and he is sincere about learning of the REAL Second Amendment and does carry water to others who are so ignorant, that will be a big plus for freedom.
This is not 1994 and all those who would throw away some to save others are now on NOTICE that those who cherish all the freedoms will not sit still as before. A line has been drawn in the sand so to speak, you are either for the Second Amendment or you are against it. Some will be hard line and never forgive Mr. Zumbo, others are waiting for action on his part before forgiving him and still there are others who believe the way he spoke in that infamous blog and see no need to forgive. Those latter ones and many others are the ones a sincere and changed Mr. Zumbo can reach.
With the size of the INTERNET today and the speed of how the Zumbo Syndrome Effect moved and Mr. Nugent's efforts in eduction, we have a good chance to turn all of this into an asset for gun rights. The last few statements from Mr. Zumbo I have heard gave me hope that he is learning.
The big question is how to get ALL firearm owners/Second Amendment activists on the same page, and use the power of the Zumbo Effect on all who try to gut the Second Amendment be it at the Federal, State or Local levels.
Mr. Zumbo has woke a sleeping giant and many are watching, some radical, many not, ALL need to take a step back and see who the REAL enemies are and focus on the fight ahead. Maybe an INTERNET clearinghouse needs to be sit up so those looking for information don't have to search all over the net?
I do hope Mr. Zumbo is sincere and time will tell.
Robert
N.R.A. Life Member
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Following up on gringle84's excellent comments, I had this thought.
I know we aren't all their constituents, but if we could get a list of the newly elected Democrats who are supposedly pro-gun, and do the following:
1. recount Mr. Zumbo's article and the comments he's made.
2. His apology and the aftermath of lossing his sponsors.
3. The Internet firestorm, and the rapidity with which it happened.
4. Note the Democrat's published pro-gun stance.
5. Urge them to stand firm against the Shumers, Clintons, Boxers, Feinsteins, Kennedys, et als.
6. Let them know that any wavering from the 2nd Amendment would be immediately known and noted
These freshman legislators are weak compared to the folks mentioned above. They do not know the political lay of the land, and will be looking to the more senior members for guidance. And, if they want anything passed, they will have to make deals. Let them know that the deals cannot include sacrificing any part of our 2nd Amendment rights. If they waver and support any limitation, we will know and act.
I agree with another DRTV poster that the 2nd Amendment is the only issue of concern right now. Forget Iraq, Social Security, the budget or anything else. For this moment in time, protect the 2nd Amendment at all costs.
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A round-up of comments:
- Alphecca : A Liberal Looks at the Zumbo Affair
- The Bitch Girls: I Thought It Was Over
- The Bitch Girls: An Outdoor Writer Speaks
- Blogonomicon: The NRA didn't do it
- Blogonomicon: I think this will be my last word on the incident...
- Cam Edwards: NRA Publications Suspends Ties to Zumbo
- David Petzal: ZUMBOMANIA: David E. Petzal’s take on the Jim Zumbo fiasco
ZUMBOMANIA: David E. Petzal’s take on the Jim Zumbo fiasco - David Petzal: ZUMBOMANIA, PART II: David E. Petzal responds to your comments
- FreedomSight: Zumboed Out
- FreedomSight: One More Time, It Ain’t About Hunting
One More Time, It Ain’t About Hunting - GunShowOnTheNet: Jim Zumbo apologizes on Nugent's Forum
- Hell in a Handbasket: A Matter of Intent
- John Lott: Washington Post Gets it wrong: "Criticism of hunters who use assault rifles puts writer’s career in jeopardy"
Washington Post Gets it wrong: "Criticism of hunters who use assault rifles puts writer’s career in jeopardy" - Live from the (upper) Texas Gulf Coast: Another Fuddite Steps Up to His Petard...
- Live from the (upper) Texas Gulf Coast: Zumbo's Favor to Gunnies and the Industry, and Other Observations
- Michael Bane: OUTDOOR LIFE Does It Right
- Musing: Jim Zumbo learns a valuable lesson
- Pro-Gun Progressive: David Kurtz Responds
- Pro-Gun Progressive: The Liberal Blogosphere Finally Picks Up The Zumbo Thing
- Ride Fast & Shoot Straight: More Zumbo fallout - skirmish lines forming
- SayUncle: Careful, you might get Zumboed
- SayUncle: Petzal responds
- Snowflakes in Hell: When Hunters Attack
- Snowflakes in Hell: The Zumbo Defenders
- Snowflakes in Hell: Zumboing Politics
- Snowflakes in Hell: Further Thoughts on “Zumboing”
Further Thoughts on “Zumboing” - The Ten Ring: A Need to Educate the Dedicated Hunter
- TheOtherSideofKim Front Page: Both Wrong
- TheOtherSideofKim Front Page: Oh, Really?
- Triggerfinger: Discipline
- Triggerfinger: Failing to learn from experience…
Failing to learn from experience… - New WarOnGuns Poll: Zumbo and Petzal
- Xavier Thoughts: Who's Next?
- Xavier Thoughts: Thoughts on Ted & Zumbo......
Thoughts on Ted & Zumbo...... - Xavier Thoughts: Jim Zumbo Finally Gets It
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Robert;
You are corrrect...the most important thing now is to make sure we're all on the same page, because there's a war coming. We already see it in Colorado and the beginnings of it in Washington. The Democratic Party and guns reminds me of that old joke about the scorpion and the frog, where the scorpion stings the frong as the frog is carrying him across the pond, the punch line being something to the effect of, "What did you expect? I'm a scorpion!" No matter that gun control is a suicidal issue for the Dems; no matter that they promise again and again and at great lengths to stay away from gun control...it's like heroin to them. Gun control is part of the Democractic Party DNA, and they quite literally can't stop themselves, even if it guarantees their eventual defeat.
The Republican Party, OTOH, could care less about the 2nd Amendment, the gun culture, "assault weapons" or, for that matter, us...we are convenient swing votes. For the most part, the Repubs treat us like the crazy uncle in the closet...quick example...Rudy Guliani...the present darling of the Republican Party for 2008...as antigun a politician as ever walked the face of the earth...last Friday NRO wondered briefly if there might be a problem with Guliani and the gun culture. Gee, ya'think? Our vote is taken for granted in Republican councils — as I was told, "So what? Are you going to vote for the Democrats? Or stay home like you guys did with Bush Senior and get another Clinton?"
The only reason the bulk of the Republican Party doesn't totally sell us out is the Zumbo Effect.
Michael B
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Robert;
You are corrrect...t
Which one is Robert?
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Jerry,
I just read that wonderful message about your dad and how he thought a rifle should be and wow! It made me think of my own dad and also his uncle, both of whom taught me what hunting and fishing was all about. Anyone looking at my collection would see that background too, though these days I have my share of auto pistols along with the revolvers. My rifles are either bolt, lever or single shot. The only auto loading rifle we have is the old .22 my wife got from her grandfather.
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To paraphrase, if we don't stand together, we will surely hang together. Our semi-auto "assault rifles" or our scoped "sniper rifles", to the "Saturday Night Specials" from Kimber, Glock, and Smith and Wesson are all at risk. Those who wish to sieze and melt down our firearms are always lurking just under the surface. Did Zumbo forget that some congress clown wanted to ban the .500 magnum when it came out, provoking images of hoardes of gang bangers with pocketed S&W model 500's roving the landscape hunting police officers with the neweest concealable body armor blaster? In the gun grabber's eyes, a Winchester 94 is the same as an AR-15. We don't need the camel's nose any further into the tent.
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Thank You Jerry the Geek you made what Zumbo did make sense. Not that he was right or wrong but at least I understand why he said what he did.
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WHERE CAN I GET A FLASH MUZZLE OR COMPRESSOR ...I THINK THAT WHAT MICHAEL BANE..WAS SHOWING THO MOSSBERG SHOTGUN. I NEED ONE FOR MY 870 REMINGTON...SURE NEED THE HELP. I TRY EVERY THING...TO FIND THAT PART.
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You're probably referring to that Mossberg "Breacher" shotgun, used by cops to blow locks and hinges off doors:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976740424.htm
Aside from the fact that it looks like you have a meat tenderizer on the end of your shotgun, it is a very purpse-specific tool, i.e. to keep the muzzle of the shotugn away from the door when the breaching round is touched off. If the muzzle is against the door, there's a chance the shtgun barrel will "banana peel" as the rounds fail to exit the barrel. According to Royal Arms, there is some recoil-reduction function (a la the old Cutts Compensator) with the device on the gun. Here's the Royal Arms website:
http://www.royalarms.com/
Go to "breaching barrels." They have complete barrels and attachment breachers. Royal Arms sells to only military and active duty law enforcement, BTW, and my understanding is installing breacher stand-offs on anyone but LEO/military customers.
The Mossbergs like the ones up on GunsAmerica are civilian legal of course. The formal designation is the Mossberg TACTICAL CRUISER, #54125 (http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5). Aside from just looking bad-ass, which I know is an issue for Don W., it'd make a pretty good car gun if you want to drive through large urban festivals next summer...
Michael B
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The Mossbergs like the ones up on GunsAmerica are civilian legal of course. The formal designation is the Mossberg TACTICAL CRUISER, #54125 (http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5). Aside from just looking bad-ass, which I know is an issue for Don W., it'd make a pretty good car gun if you want to drive through large urban festivals next summer...
Oooh, if only it came in wood... :)
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You're probably referring to that Mossberg "Breacher" shotgun, used by cops to blow locks and hinges off doors:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976740424.htm
Aside from the fact that it looks like you have a meat tenderizer on the end of your shotgun, it is a very purpse-specific tool, i.e. to keep the muzzle of the shotugn away from the door when the breaching round is touched off. If the muzzle is against the door, there's a chance the shtgun barrel will "banana peel" as the rounds fail to exit the barrel. According to Royal Arms, there is some recoil-reduction function (a la the old Cutts Compensator) with the device on the gun. Here's the Royal Arms website:
http://www.royalarms.com/
Go to "breaching barrels." They have complete barrels and attachment breachers. Royal Arms sells to only military and active duty law enforcement, BTW, and my understanding is installing breacher stand-offs on anyone but LEO/military customers.
The Mossbergs like the ones up on GunsAmerica are civilian legal of course. The formal designation is the Mossberg TACTICAL CRUISER, #54125 (http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5). Aside from just looking bad-ass, which I know is an issue for Don W., it'd make a pretty good car gun if you want to drive through large urban festivals next summer...
Michael B
MB,
On the mossberg is the barrel changeable? I would like to get a shotty that has an 18 for defense and and around a 24-26 for hunting.
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I have not read all the posts here yet, But when I got to Pathfinder's response (#20) I had to comment before I forgot. FEAR NOT Pathfinder, Those particular stores had low gun sales figures. The stores that were actually SELLING guns instead of just offering them still have guns.
Some other thoughts, Number of hunters in this country are dropping but gun ownership and participation is going up. Hunting, the "hook and bullet crowd" seems to be only vaguely connected to the rest of the SHOOTING community, To them it's more about the animals and "the chase" Personally I bought my guns to shoot, not tote through the doggone puckerbrush after some contrary critter that decided to go through the deepest part of some god awful swamp in november in NH(BRRR:)) Then if I'm "successful" ( HA) I get to drag/carry 100+ pounds of ungainly dead contrary critter back through previously mentioned godawful COLD swamp. It's enough to make you glad you shot the son of a gun.
But on the other hand, I'll shoot anything that goes bang, I'd fire a nuke if I had a safe back stop. I think as the "Babyboomers get older more of them are thinking like me and its being reflected in industry stats.
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Darn it I just found where I left off. The supply of rifles returned to the manufacturer, were Thompson Center Arms guns. They sent back 5000 guns in June of 02 ( I think it was 02) Because T/CA had contracted for 6000 by the end of may Thats why Wally world will sell T/C accesories but they carry Traditions and Knight Guns. As for it hurting the co. I didn't miss any overtime cuz of it. ( I was in the CNC Dept. It was the Barrel room that just could not make the numbers in the time they were given, I know as I worked through Memorial Day weekend re-straightening barrels after machining ) A slightly related thought, T/C has been making 1000+ Black powder rifles per month since the very early 60's thats ALOT of guns. Who the heck is buying them all , I don't have one and my Dad only has one. with production like that we should all have 3 or 4 and that doesn't include the half dozen Contenders and Encores we should all have
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Snake 45 reply #29 Thompson center Mossy oak camo goes on receivers that were rejected for "Porosity" A technical term for air pockets in the castings. My source is I had to seperate porosity rejects from recievers I scrapped for other reasons. The criteria for which get remelted and which get Mossyoak is a judgment call by the individual QC. inspector who makes ABOUT $8/ hr.