The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: twyacht on September 27, 2009, 04:01:46 PM
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I've posted the Creedmoor Sharps video fired with iron sights at 1000+ yds. That's left for the pros,....
I posted the Quigley reference video which, in reality, IS feasible and been proven, once again , by pros.... :-\
I'm not talking 600+ yd. shots, but something more realistic for the "regular rifle guy".
An iron sight rifle, similar to my 1891 Mauser, 7.65 x 54 with adjustable sights that can consistently make 150-275 yd shots, without going to sniper school.
My Winchester 30-30, like my Mauser, is fine for the 50 to 150 yd. shot. I'm not looking to break records, just make consistent "hits" on a 12" target. out to 250 yds.
Got an itch for something lever action. It is tougher to find, but Henry has some. Thoughts?
Any other suggestions? That are not Bolt Action? Marlin, Henry, ? Single Shot, Remington Rolling Block? under several thousand if possible,.. :-\ Uberti?
Kinda like Duvall in Lonesome Dove, making his famous shot with the Henry,..... Reminds me of some here on DRTV...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UhypY-pUg&feature=related
Thanks. The Little Voice is just getting louder here lately for the iron sights...
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I would think old school is what you're looking for, maybe with a modern twist? Something like a modern black powder single shot for the challenge as well as the sights. Sharps might be fun, or even a Kentucky Long Rifle. Or a Hawken buffalo gun? How much of a challenge are you looking for?
Really old school would be flintlock with irons. Really really old school would be matchlock, but then you did make the point of 250 yards - not readily do-able with a matchlock. But how cool lobbing buck and ball from a matchlock, eh? ;D
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You'd be better off with something in single shot if accuracy is the game. If you want it cheaper you can get some surplus rifles for not too much. A Martini--Henry maybe? Or an equivelent rolling block design? Haz would be the go to guy here. The Remington Rolling block is very cool and was quite accurte. A repro would be nice but probably high dollar. I look forward to this thread though.
FQ13
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I'd probably go for something like a 45-90 in a target model with tang sights. WAAAAY COOOL
But this company says a 45-70 is good to 600 yards.
http://www.riflesmith.com/faq.html
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I'd probably go for something like a 45-90 in a target model with tang sights. WAAAAY COOOL
But this company says a 45-70 is good to 600 yards.
http://www.riflesmith.com/faq.html
Nice rifles Haz, but at $5700 he can buy a Ruger single shot and hire a darn good looking girl to load it for him. ;D
FQ13
PS in the realm of the sane, try this Martini-Henry at $200
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141229641
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For under $1500 you can get a very (very) nice Sharpes replica in 45-70 with sights.. Actually you can get the 45-90 and 45-120, as well as the 50's, but why beat your self up with higher recoil if you don't need to. I know guys that are using the 45-70 for 500 - 600 all the time, and they say they can do the occasional 1,000 yard match. They recommend the 70 for most, but if you are consistantly going for 1,000 they say the 90 would be nice ...
Where's grizzle? I bet he'd have some good in put on this one.
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Cabelas sells a David Pedersoli made Sharps in .45-70 for about 900 bucks. No frills but engraving doesn't make it shoot straight or further!
;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7y9vtVG4eY&feature=related
For 250 yards, why not a Savage model 99 lever action in .308 plenty of them around and with their internal rotary magazine they can use any .308 ammo.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/903524491/Guns/Rifles/Savage-Rifles/Model-95-99-Family/SAVAGE_M_99_308_WIN.htm
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TW, I guess you've got us chasing our tails here. Me with vintage military rifles, Tom with a Savages. Haz and Timothy with Sharps. Are you looking at vintage cool or just iron sight accuracy? How much do you want to drop and do you reload?
FQ13 who thinks we could be a lot more helpful if we knew this but is still enjoying the thread.
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A (maybe) bargain Sharps, high bid is $200 but below reserve and its storefront dealer, you can call them and dicker. Auction is almost over though.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141247293
FQ13
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Hey FQ, something I was going to mention before the Remington Rolling block may have been an OK rifle, suitable for what TW wants but it was never as impressive to Govt's as the contemporary Martini and Sharps, about the only Armies that used them were Russia and Turkey. It was however widely used by the Mahdi's Dervishes at the battle of Omdurman (against Maxims ) Some were used by the Boers during their war with the British, and even as late as the 1930's by Ethiopians resisting the Italian invasion.
TW, don't forget the Winchester Hi wall, a friend of mine has one in 45/70 that has mild recoil and gets good hits at 500 yards.
We were shooting at a steel plate so I don't know how it grouped.
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Accurate 45/70, I LOVE this thing:
(http://www.hr1871.com/images/zoom_ultrahunter_stock.jpg)
But for iron sights, this is pretty nice as well!
(http://www.hr1871.com/images/zoom_ultra_buffalo.jpg)
That's 32"'s of barrel on this puppy! Moose Masher!
Both H&R's. Not wall hangers, but fine shooters!
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I like the Martini. My Grandad had one that I really regret he sold. Plus you get the whole Zulu Dawn vibe, or just Zulu if you're having a bad day. ;D They are fun, though I have no clue as to availability of 45-70 if you don't reload. I wouldn't look twice at 45-90 if you don't, Quigley or no Quigley (at least I think his was a 45-90). You can get Perdesolis pretyy cheap (their "Old Reliable" imprint seems to go for $500-$1000 on guntoker).Fun stuff if you have acess to a better than 100 yard range.
FQ13
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I forget what the Military Martini's were chambered for but the companies original line included a 45/70 chambering.
45/70 is still available from most, if not all manufacturers, and the Marlin Guide Gun is chambered for it.
Quigley's rifle was a 45/110. (watch the video I linked in my first post ;D )
BM, That's a thought, H&R are not that expensive, if you don't mind break action.
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I have an 1871 Buffalo Classic in .45-70 gov. I don't think you can beat it for the price and you can add a 30" brass scope to complete the package although I know you want iron sights. It comes with a selection of apertures for different sight configurations.
H&R's Wesson & Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic .45-70.
The "poor man's buffalo rifle".
By: Tuolumne Lawman, SASS# 6127
Copyright ©: Tuolomne Lawman & Cowboy Chronicle
The Buffalo Classic has a genuine black walnut, straight grip stock and schnable style fore arm, both with nice cut checkering. Like the Handi-Rifle, it has a single tipping barrel, but it is a heavier 32" with deep cut rifling for lead and Black Powder loads. The receiver is very nicely color case hardened, as is the crecent steel buttplate. The blueing is very deep and even. While it does not come with sights (long range sights being very subject to individual preferences), there is a 3/8" dove tail on the muzzle end of the barrel, and the receiver end is drilled and tapped for a Williams rear sight. The rifle looks very "cowboy" to me.
Well, you may ask, how does it shoot? Great! Shooting the Buffalo Classic at both our November and January long range rifle side matches, I got second place in both the smokeless and black powder categories. The November match had over 20 competitors in the smokeless category. To a man, they were using much more expensive 1885 Brownings, expensive Shiloh or C. Sharps, or custom Remington rolling blocks! The January match had about a dozen. The course was 9 rounds against the clock (6 rounds in January), freehand, at a 20"X15" steel buffalo at 235 yards. Prior to the November match, I had not fired the Buffalo Classic farther than 50 yards. Not bad performance for a "bargain" gun!
For an inexpensive gun, it has a really smooth, crisp, trigger pull, breaking at about 5 lbs. As for ballance, it is really great. The long 32" barrel is heavy enough to give it good balance, but so heavy as to fatigue the arm in off-hand shooting. The action is opened by depressing a lever next to the hammer, under the left thumb. The ejection of the empties is, to say the least, very positive, making reloads really fast. These two features really help in off-hand shooting against the clock.
In closing, I would have to give H&R's "Wesson and Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic" this ol' Lawman's "BEST BUY FOR THE BUCK AWARD" in the long range, single shot rifle category!
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(http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9045.0;attach=4826;image)
45/70 with a pointy edged steel butt plate!!! Now THAT'S a man's gun! ;)
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I saw one for $300 new on toker. Not bad at all. How is your accuracy Badger?
FQ13
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BM, The recoil on my buddies was NOTHING like what you expect, 7.62X54 is worse.
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BM, The recoil on my buddies was NOTHING like what you expect, 7.62X54 is worse.
Is it really the 7.62x54 or the Moisin that shot it? ;D
I have heard that the Moisin will beat you up for daring to fire anything, it is just that pissy!!!!
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Is it really the 7.62x54 or the Moisin that shot it? ;D
I have heard that the Moisin will beat you up for daring to fire anything, it is just that pissy!!!!
It killed Nazis on one end and wounded commies on the other. The perfect rifle! ;D
FQ13
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Mosin Nagant Humor
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
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Now that's funny. ;D
FQ13
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So many choices, Thanks to all. The list going (and growing) that is on the brain, some I probably can't find for a budget of less than $900.00 or even preferably less..
Savage 99C or M111 Lever Action .308 or 30-06 22" Barrel
Ruger Single Shot No. 1A Sporter, 30-06 22" Barrel.
Browning Model 81BLR High Power 30-06, 22" Barrel
Marlin 1895SS 45/70 22" Barrel.
Navy Arms Replica Remington Rolling Block Buffalo Rifle. 45-70 30" Barrel.. ::)
Navy Arms No. 2 Creedmoor Target 45-70 30" Barrel
Some are probably over my budget, unless some one knows a secret source.. 8)
The H&R "Poor Man's Buffalo Rifle" Thank you. for that review.
Would like to keep caliber, with what will be available ???, now and in the future. .308, 30-06, 45-70.
Would really like a longer barrel than 22". Not really a military style.
Thank you again for all the suggestions. If there is something I missed let me know..
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I've shot both a m1a and a Ishapore 2a1. They're both 7.62 NATO rifles and weigh about the same. Perceived recoil is less on the bolt-action Isapore than the semi auto m1a. YMMV.
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"You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your fox hole."
Really is the first thing that pops into my mind everytime I see my 91/30! ;D
(http://world.guns.ru/rifle/mosin91-30.jpg)
Pictures just dont do the beast's justice. ;D
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Regarding your question TW, I did a little research I should have done before first posting. I looked at prices on 45-70, which seems to be the caliber of choice for the vintage rifles (either military or buffalo style). Thing is, its going about a buck and change a round. Now that is ok if we're talking about firing off a box or two to sight in a hunting rifle before the season, but for a dedicated target gun, it will get pricey fast. Granted, you won't want to fire more than 20 rounds at a session, particularly with a steel butt plate, but still. Unless you plan to take up reloading a more modern caliber (eg cheaper) may be the way to go. :-\
FQ13
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Mosin Nagant about 80 bucks and 800 rounds for 150. ;)
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There's this,
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976578562/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Rifles/Browning-Rifles/Browning_BAR_LongTrac_30_06_NE.htm
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976582707.htm
45-70 H&R
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/pop_wm_1387269.jpg)
less than $500, and can mount the long range sights... ::)
It won't get hours of range time that's for sure, but would sure be nice to send "the very best" out to 250 yds....
There are a few others, on the list, since the wife thinks I have enough "guns", and is mad at me for buying once again more ammo, :-\, this will be a 40th birthday present to myself around Thanksgiving...
Keep the suggestions coming, just not Moisin's, (my Mauser out shoots them),.... ;)
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The 45/70 will deliver as far as you can see well enough to shoot iron sights, and The H&R is inexpensive enough to leave money for something shiny to distract the Mrs. ;D
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The 45/70 will deliver as far as you can see well enough to shoot iron sights, and The H&R is inexpensive enough to leave money for something shiny to distract the Mrs. ;D
Now there is some experienced advice worth listening to ;)
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Trinkets and Baubles go a long ways even when your not sneaking toys in the backdoor!
;D
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Now there is some experienced advice worth listening to ;)
Trinkets and Baubles go a long ways even when your not sneaking toys in the backdoor!
;D
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Thank you. we may have a winner......
All the Cimmaron are over my budget, :'(, for know but,.....one day,....
I would love a Tom Horn 44-40, but I think ammo would be harder to get than 45-70. :-\
I need to pick the right damn powerball numbers..... :P
Thanks again.
TW
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I'd give you a range report on my H&R .45-70 Buffalo Classic but to be honest, I've never shot it. It does look nice in my safe though!
I have a box of the Hornady's I've been meaning to try in it.
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I'd give you a range report on my H&R .45-70 Buffalo Classic but to be honest, I've never shot it. It does look nice in my safe though!
I have a box of the Hornady's I've been meaning to try in it.
SAFE QUEEN!?!?!?
I hope you get a chance to shoot it soon,...
If a rifle looks good in the safe, is it just as attractive when the door is closed? ;)
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SAFE QUEEN!?!?!?
I hope you get a chance to shoot it soon,...
If a rifle looks good in the safe, is it just as attractive when the door is closed? ;)
The last time I went shooting with some of my long guns I ended up with my arm in a sling for a month (7.62x54r) so I've been sticking with just my hand guns lately.
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The 45/70 will deliver as far as you can see well enough to shoot iron sights, and The H&R is inexpensive enough to leave money for something shiny to distract the Mrs. ;D
I bought my wife( she was not my wife at the time) a white gold, diamonds and saphires tennis bracelet for Xmas... 7.1 total karats... I'm pretty sure I'm covered for the rest of the year. ;D
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I bought my wife( she was not my wife at the time) a white gold, diamonds and saphires tennis bracelet for Xmas... 7.1 total karats... I'm pretty sure I'm covered for the rest of the year. ;D
Nope. That's just a huge attaboy for you. Will be wiped out instantaneously by one - count 'em One - aw shit moment.
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I bought my wife( she was not my wife at the time) a white gold, diamonds and saphires tennis bracelet for Xmas... 7.1 total karats... I'm pretty sure I'm covered for the rest of the year.
I found that going from hero to zero can happen almost instantly when married,....
Sad but True....
But a nice buffer TAB....
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Some links for you ;D
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1885_high_wall.php
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1885_high_wall.php
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1885_high_wall.php
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If you considering a Marlin, I like the .45-70 Guide gun.
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If you considering a Marlin, I like the .45-70 Guide gun.
I don't know enough about 45-70 to speculate about it's target properties. I do know this. It will knock down anything you have any business shooting at and its been doing it for going on 150 years.
FQ13
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I don't know enough about 45-70 to speculate about it's target properties. I do know this. It will knock down anything you have any business shooting at and its been doing it for going on 150 years.
FQ13
Sweet,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XCB4A911SM
Love this guy with the guide gun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZRz36S522M&feature=related
Thank you.
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The .45-70 is an impressive round for everyday shooting..........
I'm thinking a good SD round!
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It's just calling me, 45-70, 45-70, get me,.......get me,.....
Thank you.
Like I posted before, I'm not the 500+ yd shooter, (yet), but having a round that will reach out and flat out "thump" the target seems to be the 45-70 from a good rifle.
You turn 40 once,.... and despite my wife's objections, I will have one.
I'll spoil her with a New Years trip to St. Lucia, she doesn't know about yet, but for now, that is the plan....
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It's just calling me, 45-70, 45-70, get me,.......get me,.....
You turn 40 once,.... and despite my wife's objections, I will have one.
I don't think you can beat the H&R's if you want to start out with something on the low end to see if you really like the round.
I really like the fit and feel of my Buffalo Classic and for $400.00 I think they are a good deal. For less than $300 you can have a
45/70 Gov't. (SB2-457) Handi-Rifle.
MSRP $266.49
Item # SB2-457
BRAND: Harrington & Richardson
MODEL: Handi-Rifle
TYPE: Rifle
CALIBER: 45-70
FINISH: Blue
MSRP $439.13
BRAND: Harrington & Richardson # OF MAGS:
MODEL: Ultra Hunter Single Shot SAFETY: Transfer Bar System
TYPE: Rifle SIGHTS: No Sights
CALIBER: 45-70 BARREL LENGTH: 24"
FINISH: Stainless Steel OVERALL LENGTH: 40"
ACTION: Single shot WEIGHT: 8 lbs
STOCK: Cinnamon Laminate Thumbhole Stock
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Thank you david, I would love to get the Cimarron Arms Creedmor Sharps but at $1600+ it's just not gonna happen,.
I know H&R have not made the creme de la creme of rifles, but have made them for a long, long, long, time....
Uberti is a close match at $750 and up...
It's a close consideration. Barrel length, IMHO is a factor, 28" or longer, the 100 to 250 yd shot, with a thump from a 45-70.
Thank you for the specs.
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TW, for 100 to 250 yards, the .45/70 Marlin Guide gun has an 18 inch barrel the 28 + inch barrels were for the Army, (Martini Henry and Springfield ) or Buffalo (bison ) hunting where shots could be as much as 1000+ yrds.
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TW, for 100 to 250 yards, the .45/70 Marlin Guide gun has an 18 inch barrel the 28 + inch barrels were for the Army, (Martini Henry and Springfield ) or Buffalo (bison ) hunting where shots could be as much as 1000+ yrds.
A rifle to grow with.....Hmmmmmm ::) As I get to longer and longer distances, One rifle that can accommodate the 100-250 yd shot out to a range, with training, to over 400+, let alone beyond, would be something to consider.....
Damn Florida just doesn't let the public get out that far. Hell, my Mauser would do it no problem, but to have a larger round available, just seems right....
An old school train of thought to be sure, but a good big caliber rifle sure is a nice thing to have if/when the SHTF...
Thank you.
Zombies/Whomever at 250+, will keep them out of my yard,... ::)
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I'd love a Sharps, Trapdoor Springfield or Martini Henry, but like you there isn't a range I know of in NH that exceeds 500 yards.
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People fault California (including me) but I will say they are good at providing public access to a lot of hunting, boating, fishing, shooting areas.
I have a couple really good ranges relatively nearby, free to the public. I used to live about 10 miles from the one in Oroville (home of RCBS), but now it's about 25 miles since I moved closer to my job.
It goes out past 500 yds but I've never done any really long range shooting. I'm usually alone (wife sitting in truck reading) and would really need someone with a spotting scope to see where I'm hitting.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/lands/wa/region2/oroville.html
Access: Access is via Highway 162 to the headquarters entrance, about 1/2 mile west of Highway 70, or at Larkin Road. Access for Thermalito Afterbay Unit is Wilbur Road at Hwy 162. The Thermalito Unit is five miles west of Oroville, east of Highway 99.
Shooting range access is via Rabe Road.
Description: The 11,869 acre Wildlife Area in Oroville is primarily riparian woodland habitat along the Feather River and grasslands around the Thermalito Afterbay. Wildlife species seen in the area include coyote, badger, fox, bobcat, porcupine, osprey, white-tailed kite, egrets, woodpeckers, and warblers.
Good populations of coyotes, deer, dove, quail, and waterfowl. Fair populations of squirrel and rabbit.
Recreational Use: Type C Wildlife Area - no permits, passes, or reservations are required except for camping and turkey hunting.
Fishing is allowed year round. Warm water fish species (largemouth bass, bluegill, green sunfish, channel catfish, and black crappie) can be found in the numerous dredger ponds and the Thermalito Afterbay. Salmon, steelhead, shad, and striped bass can be found in the Feather River. Salmon fishing closures are from October through December 31 to protect spawning salmon. Fishing ponds on the east side of the Feather River in Riverbend Park provide barrier-free trails, restroom, fishing platforms and parking area. Access to these ponds is from Montgomery Street off of Feather River Blvd and Hwy 70. These ponds are managed by Feather River Recreation and Park District
*See current California Sport Fishing Regulations for closure boundaries and dates.*
Shooting range: No rangemaster. Open from sunrise to sunset for rifles, pistols, shotguns, and archery.
Dog training is allowed from July 1 through March 15 in designated areas only.
Horses are allowed only on roads open to vehicles, and within 25 feet of exterior boundary fences.
Camping and trailers allowed in designated campsites only. Camping shall be limited to not more than seven consecutive days, and not more than 14 days total in any calendar year, except by written permission of the Regional Manager. Fires are allowed only in portable gas stoves at sites designated for camping by the department.
Contact the Oroville Chamber of Commerce at (530) 538-2542 for motel information.
Hunting: Allowed on the uplands and on Thermalito Afterbay from September 1 through January 31 during open season for all legal species and during spring turkey season when only turkey may be taken. Spring turkey hunting is by drawing only for the 1st, 3rd, and 5th weekends of the spring turkey season. Click here to apply online. There is no fall turkey season. Game species include deer, dove, quail, squirrel, rabbit, and pheasant. Waterfowl - Thermalito Afterbay has scull boat and decoy opportunities. The dredger ponds offer decoy and jump shooting mainly in late season.
Facilities: Camping, restrooms, and launch access.
http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1C1CHMR_enUS306US308&sourceid=chrome&q=rabe+rd+oroville&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Rabe+Rd,+Oroville,+CA+95965&gl=us&ei=SR_ISsaNIpO0sgOm79CoCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1
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Even in the Bay area there are plenty of places to shoot, a fact that surprised me when I lived out there.
Around here the problem isn't finding places to hunt or shoot, it's just that due to the terrain Wooded and hilly, building a range even 500 yards is quite a project. It may be different north of the mountains or right along the Connecticut river but I have never lived in those areas so I don't know.
It really doesn't matter because the only place you would get that kind of a shot hunting would be on the power lines.
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TW,
I have a 1,000 yard range about an hour South of me in Mayakka.