The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on July 10, 2017, 06:42:07 AM
-
As I under stand it an "intermediate cartridge" is one that is less powerful than a full size rifle cartridge but more powerful than a pistol cartridge, the original's that defined the term were the 8x57 reduced to 8x33 and the 7.62 x54 cut down to 7.62 x39.
Even 7.62x51is a reduction of our own 7.62x57 (30-06) .
So how does a varmint round, a high power .22 qualify as an "intermediate" caliber ?
And why are we trying to use it to knock down people .45 acp was invented to stop
I don't want to hear crap about increased velocity because using FMJ that's all bullshit .
It's another issue we settled 100+ years ago when we canned the 6mm Lee in favor of 30/40Krag.
If a bullet punches right through it's not dumping that velocity into the target so it is irrelevant.
The 6.5 and 6.8 AR rounds are "intermediate calibers" same with 300 Blackout, which , because of the minimal cost of conversion I think is the best bet for the next M-16/M-4 version.
-
Intermediate cartridges, IMHO, best fit in the home defense arena. I don't need one in a rifle for hunting (sport, maybe) and I don't need it for CCW (obviously).
So.......
I think an AR pistol or SBR in 300BLK loaded with 168 or 200 grain HP at subsonic velocities (and using a suppressor) would be an optimal home defense weapon.
-
KRISS Vector in 45 ACP????
-
I'm talking military rifle.The Germans wanted to replace their rifles with something that gave the soldier more fire power while the Soviets wanted to give their submachine gunners greater range.
Both arrived at the same result, the STG and AK are basically the same while both cartridges are the standard rifle cartridge with the casing cut down by ABOUT 50% (I know it's not exact, but I don't feel like doing the math) We on the other hand reduced our service cartridge by a mere 6mm, then went to a varmint caliber.
-
FWIW .... 5.56 rounds at over 2700fps will yaw when entering human tissue, then break apart at the crimping canular, causing organ tissue stretched by the hydro static shock wave to be shredded... less than about 2700fps and the projectile completes a 180 degree yaw and leaves the body backwards....
-
FWIW .... 5.56 rounds at over 2700fps will yaw when entering human tissue, then break apart at the crimping canular, causing organ tissue stretched by the hydro static shock wave to be shredded... less than about 2700fps and the projectile completes a 180 degree yaw and leaves the body backwards....
What does it do in light brush or any kind of breeze ?
A bullet breaking up isn't a good thing, you want the same performance from a military bullet that you would want in hunting for the same reasons.
-
The yaw isn't an unintended occurrence, the round was designed to yaw for damage. From what I recall, the round was very slightly unstable in flight with the tip moving in a very tight circle and that would cause the yaw as it entered tissue.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/5/21/testing-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/
Army researchers found that lethality was dictated by the 5.56 mm bullet’s yaw; that is, after impact a hardened ball projectile must wobble or turn against its axis-yaw-or fragment, to inflict significant tissue damage. “At a low angle of yaw,” an Army study determined, “the bullet reacts more slowly, causing the inconsistent effects observed in the field … . [T]he location and amount of yaw depend upon the speed of the bullet at impact, angle of impact, and density of tissue.”
A related factor was the physiology of Afghan Taliban and Iraqi insurgents. Usually malnourished, their torsos are only about 7.5-inches thick, while the older M855 projectile often penetrated, “up to 7 inches before beginning to yaw, and will already have exited the body before yaw or fragmentation occur.” According to published standards, the new cartridge is designed to yaw no more than 3 inches beyond the impact point, producing a temporary cavity diameter of 4 to 6 inches and minimum penetration depth of 12 inches, and to do that consistently.
-
Tom... I've seen videos of a 50BMG deflected by a 1/2 stick... using the stadia lines of my ACOG to figure horizontal drift, I hit 10" plates at Ft Benning with a 55grain M193 with a 15" hold off in 20 knot winds, and it took 3 shots
you better have something that can shoot through the Chicom knock off ceramic armor that is being produced, at social distances... and you better shoot more than one shot pretty darn close together
-
How come for the first 75 years of smokeless powder did all military's settle on a round rifle caliber between 6.5 and 7.92 ?
-
I'm talking military rifle.The Germans wanted to replace their rifles with something that gave the soldier more fire power while the Soviets wanted to give their submachine gunners greater range.
Both arrived at the same result, the STG and AK are basically the same while both cartridges are the standard rifle cartridge with the casing cut down by ABOUT 50% (I know it's not exact, but I don't feel like doing the math) We on the other hand reduced our service cartridge by a mere 6mm, then went to a varmint caliber.
I still agree on the 300BLK...whether SBR or carbine.
As you mentioned, it is the easiest to convert with minimal parts (barrel, gas block and gas tube ?), and of the other calibers mentioned it has the widest range of bullet weights because it uses any bullet the .308 can use....and works well as a subsonic load, and when loaded fast it at least compares to the AK at "intermediate" ranges.
JMHO, FWIW
-
How come for the first 75 years of smokeless powder did all military's settle on a round rifle caliber between 6.5 and 7.92 ?
I guess they were still in the "bigger bullet to compensate for slower velocity" mindset...until they finally figured out that speed kills almost as good if the bullet is made right. ;D
Now I guess everyone is still trying to find that happy medium magic cartridge. :D
-
look for your 6.5 to be a 6.5x51 or longer case to make use of the superior ballistic coefficient of the 6.5 bullets...for 1500m targets
-
Over on Forgotten Weapons some one wondered why second rate powers , Japan, Italy, Switzerland, Austria-Hungary , etc chose 6.5 variants while the major players such as England, Russia, Germany, and France went with 7.62 to 8 mm range. Ian's answer was that he thought it might just be coincidence.
I notice though that the larger bore countries were all more or less colonial powers habitually fighting savages while the 6.5 countries, with the exception of Italy, were only fighting each other.
-
longer range shooting... across the valley from one side of the mountain to the next
-
I like the 6.8 spc personally. the only thing I like about 556 is you can carry a lot of it. still if I am in the sand box, I want more. not so much for the longer range, but so I know if I hit them, they go down. there is an ~800 ft lbs difference betweent he 556 and the 762
-
"So how does a varmint round, a high power .22 qualify as an "intermediate" caliber ?" Simple. It's intermediate in power between pistol cartridges like .45 ACP and main battle rifle cartridges like 7.62x51mm.
-
Frank, the whole point of this thread is that it ISN'T half way between.45 and a battle rifle round. 5.56/.223 isn't even in the same class as a real military round.
-
Frank, the whole point of this thread is that it ISN'T half way between.45 and a battle rifle round. 5.56/.223 isn't even in the same class as a real military round.
You're right. It's MORE THAN halfway between them. The last time I looked up the muzzle energy of the 3 rounds, the 5.56x45mm was over 3 times the power of the .45 and about half the power of the 7.62mm. If it's not, then what has changed? Perhaps I should have said the 5.56x45mm is intermediate in power between a .22 rimfire rifle and a .30-06.
-
don't overlook the effect that Army (Marine) doctrine plays in the selection of military small arms...if non symmetrical urban warfare against dismounted troops is the most likely opposition, a MK18's 10.3" or M4's 14.5" barrel makes a lot of sense ...
-
Intermediate caliber, isn't that something like 75 to 150 kilitons?
-
You're right. It's MORE THAN halfway between them. The last time I looked up the muzzle energy of the 3 rounds, the 5.56x45mm was over 3 times the power of the .45 and about half the power of the 7.62mm. If it's not, then what has changed? Perhaps I should have said the 5.56x45mm is intermediate in power between a .22 rimfire rifle and a .30-06.
Maybe you should accept the fact it's just a frigging varmint rifle and then butt out since you are obviously missing the point that varmint rifles were tried and rejected a 125 years ago with the failure of the Lee Navy.
And all your energy numbers are theoretical bullshit if the bullet is to narrow to dump it's energy into the target, then there's the fact it's basicly shit for barrier penetration. Hey, newsflash for Frank, they quit that Napoleonic standing in the open shit 160years ago.
-
Maybe you should accept the fact it's just a frigging varmint rifle and then butt out since you are obviously missing the point that varmint rifles were tried and rejected a 125 years ago with the failure of the Lee Navy.
And all your energy numbers are theoretical bullshit if the bullet is to narrow to dump it's energy into the target, then there's the fact it's basicly shit for barrier penetration. Hey, newsflash for Frank, they quit that Napoleonic standing in the open shit 160years ago.
Why don't you accept the facts, butt out, and quit being a self righteous prick?
-
Maybe you should accept the fact it's just a frigging varmint rifle and then butt out since you are obviously missing the point that varmint rifles were tried and rejected a 125 years ago with the failure of the Lee Navy.
And all your energy numbers are theoretical bullshit if the bullet is to narrow to dump it's energy into the target, then there's the fact it's basicly shit for barrier penetration. Hey, newsflash for Frank, they quit that Napoleonic standing in the open shit 160years ago.
This hits the nail on the head. The .223 / 5.56 MM, regardless of how you dress it up, or how many rounds you stuff into the magazine, is still nothing more than a varmint cartridge..... And always has been. You tell this to AR platform fanatics, and they right away get insulted, and want to argue. "It's better to wound in battle than to kill, and the 5.56 creates terrible wounds"..... and all of that bullshit.
It doesn't change the fact it's still a varmint cartridge. A deer has a cardiovascular system very similar to a man. And is considered by many to be about as difficult to kill. The .223 round is ILLEGAL to hunt deer with in several states because it lacks sufficient energy to make clean kills. I've never been able to figure out the logic, that if it's not enough gun for deer, how can it be for war?
I forget what the amount of 5.56 MM rounds to kill ratio was in Vietnam, but it was off the chart. So soldiers were able to carry more ammunition to spray into the jungle. This was an "advantage" how? Big magazines, (20-30 as opposed to 8 in the Garand in WW II), and a bunch of spray and pray full auto fire accomplished exactly what? Marksmanship took a back seat to, "volume of fire". I've never been able to wrap my head around that type of thinking. Especially with the lack of results it has obtained.
Then, to frost the cake and light the candles, someone got the clever idea to neck up this varmint round to take .30 caliber bullets. (.300 Blackout). The standard AK round is better, cheaper, and more plentiful. So what's the big advantage to the .300 Blackout, other than the fact that all of these same guys who love to argue how wonderful the .223 is, are now all jumping on the .300 Blackout bandwagon? It doesn't make sense to me. If you want a good .30 caliber round, you have had the .308 for decades. Everything else seems like little more than a commercial and financial distraction.
I have AR's in both .223 and .308. In battle I don't even have to think about which one I would want to carry. It's a no brainer. Especially with good optics.
-
There ya go.
Frank should take his own advice.
-
Everyone out here dissin' the poodle shooters....
-
Whether or not it's a varmint cartridge, and it basically is, the 5.56x45mm is still intermediate in power between a pistol and main battle rifle. I don't know how anyone can deny that.
-
100,000 rounds per dead Vietcong fighter I recall...
-
100,000 rounds per dead Vietcong fighter I recall...
Yeah. Some people are to damned stupid to understand the difference between fighting and plinking.
-
Whether or not it's a varmint cartridge, and it basically is, the 5.56x45mm is still intermediate in power between a pistol and main battle rifle. I don't know how anyone can deny that.
8 mm Kurz and 7.62X39 even you SHOULD be able to see they are reduced power rifle rounds not glorified squirrel guns.
-
8 mm Kurz and 7.62X39 even you SHOULD be able to see they are reduced power rifle rounds not glorified squirrel guns.
Yeah. They're intermediate in power too.
-
Wikipedia has an article on intermediate cartridges. It starts out, "An intermediate cartridge is a rifle/carbine cartridge that is less powerful than typical full-power battle rifle cartridges, such as the .303 British, 7.62×54mmR, 7.92×57mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield or 7.62×51mm NATO, but still has significantly longer effective range than pistol cartridges." Nowhere does it say they have to be based on shortened high power rifle rounds. I haven't seen anywhere in print or on the web that has ever said intermediate cartridges have to be based on shortened full power rounds either. The .30 Carbine was based on a small game hunting cartridge, not a main battle rifle cartridge, and it's an intermediate cartridge. The 5.56x45mm was developed as an intermediate cartridge with more power and longer range than the .30 Carbine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge
-
It all depends on each person's interpretation. Intermediate being a point between two other points, based on a defined criteria.
You can have a wide range of power factors in one single caliber, example: .45 caliber, that spans from .45 ACP to .458 Win Mag. Somewhere there is an intermediate cartridge.
Then you can consider power factor only (energy) regardless of caliber, from .17 HMR caliber to .50 BMG....handgun to rifle, somewhere there is an intermediate cartridge.
The best case is a happy medium of all the above.
-
The 5.56x45mm was developed as an intermediate cartridge with more power and longer range than the .30 Carbine.
"Intermediate" to what? You can't compare it to .30 caliber cartridges. It was developed as, and in fact is, one of the highest velocity centerfire .22's on the market, and always has been. It was way ahead of the standardization of the .22-250 Remington. Which didn't come until late 1965. And about the only centerfire .22's above it and before it were the .225 Winchester and the .220 Swift.
However there are a ton of lesser velocity centerfire .22's that would qualify as "intermediate", besides the .223. The .22 Jet, .256 Winchester Magnum, .22 Hornet, just to name a few. But as far as high performance .22 centerfire's are rated among all that are out there, the .223 is hardly considered to be, "intermediate".
-
"Intermediate" to what? You can't compare it to .30 caliber cartridges. It was developed as, and in fact is, one of the highest velocity centerfire .22's on the market, and always has been. It was way ahead of the standardization of the .22-250 Remington. Which didn't come until late 1965. And about the only centerfire .22's above it and before it were the .225 Winchester and the .220 Swift.
However there are a ton of lesser velocity centerfire .22's that would qualify as "intermediate", besides the .223. The .22 Jet, .256 Winchester Magnum, .22 Hornet, just to name a few. But as far as high performance .22 centerfire's are rated among all that are out there, the .223 is hardly considered to be, "intermediate".
At the end of WWII various nations were looking for something for their military more effective at longer range than pistol caliber submachine guns. But they also wanted something lighter with less recoil than the high power rifle cartridges they had. They wanted something intermediate in power between pistols and main battle rifles. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
-
At the end of WWII various nations were looking for something for their military more effective at longer range than pistol caliber submachine guns. But they also wanted something lighter with less recoil than the high power rifle cartridges they had. They wanted something intermediate in power between pistols and main battle rifles. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
It isn't hard to understand. But what does ANY of that have to do with you declaring the .223 / 5.56 MM an "intermediate cartridge".... It is not. As I said, it is, and always has been one of the highest velocity .22 centerfire's ever made. You can't heap calibers together, then turn around and pick one as "intermediate".
-
At the end of WWII various nations were looking for something for their military more effective at longer range than pistol caliber submachine guns. But they also wanted something lighter with less recoil than the high power rifle cartridges they had. They wanted something intermediate in power between pistols and main battle rifles. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
I can't understand what's so hard for you to understand is that from post one the whole point of this thread is to challenge the definition that you keep parroting.
I'm saying that intermediate is FULL caliber, less power, and you just can't get that through you're dogmatic head.
-
I can't understand what's so hard for you to understand is that from post one the whole point of this thread is to challenge the definition that you keep parroting.
I'm saying that intermediate is FULL caliber, less power, and you just can't get that through you're dogmatic head.
You can challenge the definition that the whole world uses all you want but you're wrong. Ask the people who defined it if any are still alive. I get what you're saying but I and most of the world disagree with you.
-
It isn't hard to understand. But what does ANY of that have to do with you declaring the .223 / 5.56 MM an "intermediate cartridge".... It is not. As I said, it is, and always has been one of the highest velocity .22 centerfire's ever made. You can't heap calibers together, then turn around and pick one as "intermediate".
What it has to do with it is, and what it's always had to do with it, that the .223/5.56x45mm is intermediate in power between a .45 ACP and a .308/7.62x51mm. Deny it if you want to but the facts speak for themselves.
-
I'm saying that intermediate is FULL caliber, less power, and you just can't get that through you're dogmatic head.
All his whining is based on the fact he doesn't get the FULL CALIBER part of the definition.
-
All his whining is based on the fact he doesn't get the FULL CALIBER part of the definition.
You two have your definition but I'll stick with the definition that the rest of the world has been using ever since the concept was invented. Full caliber isn't a part of it and never was. You two are the ones who don't get it.
-
Well Frank, I guess you got the last word with Tom. I haven't seen him back. :o
-
No point arguing with stupid people
-
I knew I could goad you into posting again. I knew it.
Now, if only we had FQ around....I could get you both spinning like tops. ;D
-
I knew I could goad you into posting again. I knew it.
Now, if only we had FQ around....I could get you both spinning like tops. ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
(_)*(_)
-
No point arguing with stupid people
No point if you know you're wrong. If you disagree with nearly everyone in the whole world, including the inventors of a concept, that would be a clue that you're most likely wrong.
-
Isn't tere an "ignore" function for assholes ?
-
Isn't tere an "ignore" function for assholes ?
Tom is back. God damn it I love it!! ;D
-
Isn't tere an "ignore" function for assholes ?
Yeah, it's called get out and stay out. I thought you were leaving but you just can't stay away. Did you miss me?
-
Getting tiring to see two grown men in a pissing contest when they can't see the others urine stream! Who wins?
I'm in agreement on one thing... If you're going to go Tom, then go! Getting attacked on an open forum for a difference of opinion or a he said, he said moment is pathetic and boorish...
Maybe, just maybe, you're the reason activity is down around here!
Just my .02 and nothing more!
-
Getting tiring to see two grown men in a pissing contest when they can't see the others urine stream! Who wins?
I'm in agreement on one thing... If you're going to go Tom, then go! Getting attacked on an open forum for a difference of opinion or a he said, he said moment is pathetic and boorish...
Maybe, just maybe, you're the reason activity is down around here!
Just my .02 and nothing more!
I'm not the one in conflict with 2 different people on 2 of the few threads on here and I'm not the one telling some one else to leave, so blow me Tim.
Getting back on topic I'll point out that both Italy and Japan started the smokeless era with 6.5 caliber rifles and attempted to convert to 30 caliber because they did not prove effective enough during WWI.
In both cases conversion was halted because of WWII.
-
I'm not the one in conflict with 2 different people on 2 of the few threads on here and I'm not the one telling some one else to leave, so blow me Tim.
Having personally witnessed you harangue lots of folks on these boards over the years is evidence that you're the problem!
-
As I under stand it an "intermediate cartridge" is one that is less powerful than a full size rifle cartridge but more powerful than a pistol cartridge, the original's that defined the term were the 8x57 reduced to 8x33 and the 7.62 x54 cut down to 7.62 x39.
Even 7.62x51is a reduction of our own 7.62x57 (30-06) .
So how does a varmint round, a high power .22 qualify as an "intermediate" caliber ?
And why are we trying to use it to knock down people .45 acp was invented to stop
<snip>
Could it be by the it qualifies by the virtue of the very first sentence in the very first post? The question boxed itself in using the terms power and pistol cartridge. A 5.56 is certainly more powerful than a 45 ACP.
-
I'm not the one in conflict with 2 different people on 2 of the few threads on here and I'm not the one telling some one else to leave, so blow me Tim.
Getting back on topic I'll point out that both Italy and Japan started the smokeless era with 6.5 caliber rifles and attempted to convert to 30 caliber because they did not prove effective enough during WWI.
In both cases conversion was halted because of WWII.
You're the one who said you're going to leave. I only suggested afterward that you follow through with what you said you were going to do. Your lack of commitment is disappointing.