The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Teresa Heilevang on February 09, 2010, 05:38:46 PM
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Got this from a friend:
Caution: The last few pictures are pretty graphic...but they show the magnitude of the mishap
A very good shooting friend of mine from Winnipeg , MB Canada sent me a link to these photos in a web album. A Winnipeg area shooter by the name of Trent Procter who works for Manitoba Hydro was sighting in his Savage muzzleloader rifle and nearly lost his hand. Luckily, he had his hand on the scope instead of the forearm when this happened. (Incidentally, the Savage is the only muzzleloader that is supposed to withstand the high pressures of smokeless powder.)
I don't know if this failure happened due to a defect in the rifle itself or if the shooter perhaps didn't properly seat the projectile against the powder firmly. This is VERY important with any muzzleloader, especially when shooting black powder.
Doc Martin
Webmaster Coon 'n Crockett Muzzleloaders Club
Grand Forks, ND - USA
www.coon-n-crockett.org
This is what the rifle looks like:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/origmuzzlejpg.jpg)
This is a page I took from the manual that mentions the smokeless loads:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzleloader1jpg.jpg)
This is the note that was sent with the email I received:
If you guys know of anyone who is shooting a Savage like this let them know that there are many recorded cases of them failing such as Proc's did. Savage is the only muzzle loader that claims it can handle smokeless powder loads. Cabelas won't even carry this product anymore. This email has gone to the CEO of Savage Arms via another hunter who has contacted Trent . The same thing happened to him awhile back, he was lucky as his forend hand was on his scope as he was sighting in. Forward as you feel fit.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzlelaoader3.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzleloader2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle4jpg.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle5.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle6.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle10.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle9.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle11.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle8.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle7.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/gun%20stuff/muzzle12.jpg)
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ouch, he's gonna have a scar
and Savage a lawsuit
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Bore obstruction maybe?
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Bore obstruction maybe?
Yeah, the bullet!
Never, ever, use smokeless powder in a muzzle loader.
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If his hand was on the scope, and the scope is still intact, the severity of his hand injury, the wound is in the web, thumb and top,....
those would be to the rear facing the shooter, as he was adjusting windage, elevation,... ??? His main injury's are more consistent with a traditional cradling of the foregrip. Left side of palm on the thumb side and across the palm from the pointer finger toward the wrist. Especially the pictures of the stitched wound. Blood blisters from the detonation, and his finger tips (blackened and injured), which would have been curled up toward the barrel in a traditional shooting position.
Seems his hand was more on the foregrip based on the injury, and the way the barrel split...
Either way, he's got a long recovery with that hand ahead of him... Geez, that's a bad one...
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Ouch, I would like to know more about the load used, but God bless these injuries, I have been lucky and only had 1 revolver blow up, I was only the shooter, not the loader or owner of the firearm, wish I had pictures, single action army, cylinder in 3 pieces, and the top strap through the ceiling. The barrel does look thin compared to most muzzle loaders.
Best healing to those involved, looks wicked, and I want them to shoot again.
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I didn't think muzzleloaders had bolt handles? <Maybe I just am really unfamiliar with the type of rifle.
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If his hand was on the scope, and the scope is still intact, the severity of his hand injury, the wound is in the web, thumb and top,....
those would be to the rear facing the shooter, as he was adjusting windage, elevation,... ??? His main injury's are more consistent with a traditional cradling of the foregrip. Left side of palm on the thumb side and across the palm from the pointer finger toward the wrist. Especially the pictures of the stitched wound. Blood blisters from the detonation, and his finger tips (blackened and injured), which would have been curled up toward the barrel in a traditional shooting position.
Seems his hand was more on the foregrip based on the injury, and the way the barrel split...
Either way, he's got a long recovery with that hand ahead of him... Geez, that's a bad one...
I think what was being said was that another friend who had a similar blowup was lucky to have had his hand on the scope. Not this poor guy.
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The way the barrel is split looks wrong. something is not right about this story.
There is more to this than a dumb azz using Smokeless powder in a muzzle loader, and I DO NOT think it is a problem with the gun.
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Dam,
one very lucky bloke....
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Dam,
one very lucky bloke....
I wouldn't call that lucky
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If Cabelas refuses to carry this muzzleloader, they must think there is a problem. The injury does appear to be more consistent with traditional hold rather than one hand on the scope. Either way, THAT'S gunna leave a mark. I pray for his quick recovery, but I don't think he'll ever have more than 70-80% use of that hand. Sad.
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I tend to believe that if Savage says it will handle smokeless charges, they engineered it to handle smokeless charges. Killing and maiming your customers isn't good for business.
There is no mention as to the type of powder this shooter used, or how much. Both things you'd need to know to come to an educated conclusion.
This rifle's barrel looks very much like burst CW era rifled muskets I've seen at battlefields. They were the result of either excessive powder or multiple loading before firing. I'd think a powder that burned too fast would also cause this. Again, we're missing info, so who knows what happened?
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Whatever caused it, I'm gonna guess he ain't gonna be picking the banjo anytime soon.
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Even a Texas Redneck has to admit, Duct tape WON'T fix THAT. ;D
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Smokeless powder in a front stuffer?!?! That's just KRAZY TALK!
If you get the charge wrong your screwed, with black powder you'll just get more smoke, flame and sparks. But your rifle will be intact not to mention you'll still be able to pick up a dinner knife at the supper table.
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Smokeless powder in a front stuffer?!?! That's just KRAZY TALK!
If you get the charge wrong your screwed, with black powder you'll just get more smoke, flame and sparks. But your rifle will be intact not to mention you'll still be able to pick up a dinner knife at the supper table.
I am not a black powder shooter and while your observations seem like they should be true, it appears that this rifle was designed for smokeless. Here is a link to a test of the gun.
http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm
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What a sight to see while having my coffee...yuck... :-X
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The Savage Model 10-ML IS DESIGNED TO HANDLE SMOKELESS POWDER! This is how false stuff gets spread on the Internet. It is the only modern muzzle loader designed to do so. It is the reason people buy it in the first place. What kind of smokeless powder, and how much are what is important! These guns are as safe to fire as any modern weapon with handloaded ammunition. The person doing the loading better know what they are doing. I'm not saying it is the shooters fault, but it very well could be.
Savage 10-ML rifles have been around for a while, and have been proven to be reliable. I'm willing to bet this was 1.) a gross overload. 2.) The wrong type of powder, (too fast). 3.) Any and or all of the above. Yes, it could possibly be a barrel obstruction, or detonation caused by not having the projectile fully seated on the charge, but because of the nature of this type of rifle, I rather doubt it. I'm not much into muzzle loading because of the messy cleanup always involved with these type of guns. But I have considered one of these rifles in the past, and this incident doesn't deter my thinking in the least.
There are dozens of handloading accidents every year that cause injury to shooters. That in itself doesn't alter my thinking about handloaded ammunition. It just makes me all the more careful. A bit like driving slower after you pass a major wreck with injuries on the highway. Bill T.
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(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3360/dsc000182pg.jpg)
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finnish+gun+manufacturer+recalls+faulty+hunting+weapons/1101978285825
There is another possibility, and that is bad barrel steel. This happened a few years ago to Sako. They wound up getting a bad batch of barrel steel from the vendor who supplied their material. A total of 6 guns were known to have blown up like this. The gun you see let go firing FACTORY .300 WSM Ammunition. It involved a massive recall. If steel isn't heat treated properly it can do strange things. Again, this is yet another of many possibilities. Bill T.
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If steel isn't heat treated properly it can do strange things. Again, this is yet another of many possibilities. Bill T.
Ahh..correct. I recall a recent threat where the KABOOM was traced to improper heat treating of the barrel also.
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If I remember the followup of the Sako incident, there was something reported about the steel having an unusually high Sulphur content. This can cause a crystallization of the steel itself, making it brittle. They were fortunate that only 6 rifles let go, and no one got killed. What I found amazing about the Sako incident is that it involved almost 3,000 rifles. Figuring an average barrel length of 24" that equates to 1.14 MILES of bad barrel steel! I don't know the source of their steel, but I hope they found a new one. Bill T.
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Here's a thought that will give perspective to the idea of using smokeless powder in a muzzle loader.
Black powder is measured into the gun using a tube on the powder flask that holds "about" the amount you want.
Smokeless is measured into cartridges using triple beam or digital scales that measure 1/10th of a grain.
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The charges are meant to be pre measured and placed into small vials or containers. No doubt it has to be done more precisely than with black powder. If the 10-ML is guilty of anything, it is the fact it takes more knowledge to operate it safely. Bill T.
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http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm
Some facts about the Savage 10-ML. Bill T.
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There is a very basic Legal Maxim: "He who asserts must prove." You don't have to be around firearms very long to quickly understand that all firearms can be destroyed if misused. Savage Arms has made smokeless firearms for how many years? Most every 12 ga., 20 ga., 28 ga. .410 bore that goes bang every day (with comparatively paper-thin barrels) uses smokeless powder. A 209 primer, wad or sabot, and a slug or shot-- all old news. Loading from the muzzle changes nothing, assuming the gun is designed for the recommended propellants and loads.
This is fairly old news: this article covers what you need to do to damage or destroy a 10ML-II. It isn't easy; you really have to work hard at it any ignore the many printed safety warnings (and common sense). If you really want to and try hard enough, it can be done.
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm (http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm) goes over the matter in detail.
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That was a good read, Randy....thanks.....and welcome to the forum....hope you post more.
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Thanks Randy. Bill T.
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Randy, Excellant first post welcome,
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Where is the ramrod??Bet it is abobuttut a 1/4 mi away!! You are supposed to remove them before you pull the trigger. My grandad told a story about his brothers, the youngest one had bothering the oldest to to shoot an old muzzleloader they had. Well they loaded it with about 3 charges. The young one shot it and was knocked on his butt, some what suprising the older ones, but when they started to reload they couldn,t find it. I think that is what happened here.
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Hi, I'm Rick. New to this fourm stuff. A friend of mine told me to check out this site and thread because I own one of these Savages.
I have seen this kind of damage before and it is "almost" always opperator error. (Bad steel being one exception, but rare)
I know 2 others personaly who own said rifle, and not one of the three of us have ever had any safty issues that we know of.
As stated above, WEIGH EACH CHARGE, AND KNOW YOUR POWDER AND SABOT/BULLETT COMBINATION! This gun was designed for smokeless with a saboted bullett. The sabot acts as a preasure relief valve. Any charge listed by Savage would blow by the sabot long before blowing the barrel.
The pictures indicate (at least to me) that there was a barrel obstruction, or the ramrod was left in the gun, OR an unsaboted and /or unapproved bullet/powder combo was used.(Maybe even two bullets)one stuck half way down, which looks to be more likely.
I have fired my Savage with recomended loads several hundred times, and never had any issues. I would be slow to blame Savage untill we have more real facts.
No matter what the reason, it was a terible accident. We Pray for a fast recovery.
Thanks,
Rick
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Thanks for the first hand report and WELCOME to the mad house! ;)
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Actually, I had a conversation with Randy Wakeman on another board a couple of years back. It turns out we used to frequent the same gun shop back when I lived in Illinois. Anyway, I was seriously considering getting a Savage 10-ML because of it's ability to use smokeless powder, not in spite of it. A lot of false information was being spread all over the Internet about this rifle being "dangerous", and Randy is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there on the subject of the Savage 10-ML.
But there were a lot of other guns that I wanted, and the 10-ML got put on the back burner. Savage has ceased production because they just couldn't sell enough of them to turn a profit. I liked the idea of smokeless in a muzzle loader because it wasn't so damn dirty and messy. And with the 10-ML you always had the option to use black powder with it if you so desired. It also was avaliable in .50 caliber and packed a hefty wallop. The fact it came in a Stainless Steel, Laminated Stock model was an even bigger plus. It's too bad Savage couldn't make a go of it. Like many nice weapons out there in gun land, that rifle had a lot of appeal, just not enough sales to go with it to remain on the market. Bill T.
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Dang that had to f-ing hurt. It reminds me of the servicemen using 50cal rounds like hammers. :o
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Hi Ya'll,
Thanks for the welcome. Actually a few years back, I resurched and read everything I could find about the Savage. Randy was one of the writers I couldn't get enough of. I read everything I could find posted by him, on any web site or article I could find.
Never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I sure would have liked to. He had no BS, just striaght facts. There were a few others back then too, that worked with preasure measureing barrels and posted graphs and such. I learned alot from these guys, and I really appriciate all the work they put into all that data. Randy's work on the vent liners was remarkable!
The only thing I changed on my gun was the stock. I built a laminated thumbhole target stock fitted with a stainless action block, and added a third 1/4-28 action screw so the action stays tight in the stock when I remove the bolt etc for cleaning. Glass bedded and floating barrel with air vent slots in the forearm. I've been told that was a little over kill, but hey, it's my rifle, right?
Anyway, as soon as I figure out more on this computer stuff, I'll put a picture on here like you guys have. (won't be as nice as your's, Bill) Maybe the gun or a target.
Again, Thanks for everything.
Rick
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Many of us use Photobucket.
It's point and click simple and its free.
I have no technical reasons for it, but I would never mix smokeless and muzzle loaders.
It probably isn't "just me", but it is my prejudice and I'm keeping it ! ;D
Edited to add That you could get yourself hurt if you grabbed the wrong flask for another BP arm.
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i know this is an old topic, but i just came across it and your forum today.
this incident is clearly the result of a double load
primer/powder/sabot/bullet/powder/sabot/bullet = kaboom!
if one looks at where the widest spread of the fracture is located it soon becomes apparent that it centers very closely to the middle of the second charge.
ignition of the first charge radically compresses the second load and it spontaneously and violently explode, with a ruptured barrel the result.
this guy did not have his had on the scope either.
any explosion of this nature would have removed the scope had his hand been on it and suffered this injury.
had this been the result of a single load, we would expect the center of the failure to be located back toward the breech and the scope would have been gone!
btw, neat forum!
mobile_bob