The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Rastus on February 17, 2019, 09:18:26 AM
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OK. I just watched a Shooting Gallery episode where Mike Seeklander is extolling the pistol cartridge AR for home defense. I think I want to build one.
Suggestions on the build and the source parts are appreciated...especially sources. I would like a 45 or better yet 10MM. It may be the right thing for my wife to carry on the side by side.
I'm wanting to build one that has the same dimensions and controls as the standard AR so there is no learning curve. I want light and I want two uppers. One with a street legal barrel and the a second upper SBR with the paperwork. Gotta run like a champ without failures.....
Les, I know you and Bill can chime in on this plus whoever else is out there that wants to (even you Tom I know you gotta check this every now and then).
Right now I'm intrigued with these guys for the handguards and maybe the grip:
https://brigandarms.com/ (https://brigandarms.com/)
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Some of their handguards look good. Their most expensive one is $414.00. That's over 3/4 of the price of my Colt AR. Ouch. I like the looks of the less expensive ones better but I'll stick with cheaper and heavier.
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Rastus... a couple of comments... a traditional blow back pistol caliber carbine has more recoil than a 5.56, just a lot less muzzle blast...I think a 10mm blow back would be a problem do to the high pressure and danger of rupturing a case on extraction... I have 3, 10.5" ARs configured in 5.56, and for home defense it would be my choice over a pistol caliber in terms of reliability... mine are fitted with a linear comp (LeVang) that pushes a lot of blast forward...that being said if you decide to down grade to a 9mm, I've been playing with an AR9 for about 3 years now
Rudy Koester of Macon Armory makes .45 and 10mm that are IIRC a locked breech design
my AR9 for USPSA use is a Glock format New Frontier Armory billet lower with a RRA trigger, the upper/barrel/fore end is a Palmetto State Armory with a NFA bolt with an AR style extractor,
PSA has a forged Glock format lower a friend uses, and would be my choice for a "do over" as well as a complete PSA upper and their gen4 bolt with AR extractor..
my Colt style with magazine well adapter unit on my SBR broke the last round bolt hold open after only two lock backs... my competition Glock format does not have LRBHO... the Glock magazines feed directly into the chamber from a single cartridge release where the Colt style lowers feed from a double side feed magazine and have an integral feed ramp... I recommend the Glock format
if you decide on the AR PCC I can probably help you on specific questions... please feel free to ask
Les
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I just watched a bunch of videos and the Macon Armory .45 DI upper looks like it's softer-shooting and more controllable than a 9mm blowback, even on full-auto.
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
Les, I'm thinking 10MM because we have bears and coyotes at the vacation place and my wife had 1/2 dozen food tablets called Papillons she raises and shows.
My wife appreciates the lack of muzzle blast...at least that's what I am thinking. Maybe I am overthinking this and I'm looking for something light she can handle better so...maybe 10 is out and 9 is in....I dunno. As far as the 5.56 we have several she can go to with an AAC M2000 to make it nicer to shoot. The one thing I do know is I want to keep the controls the same as the standard AR so neither of us gets confused when we pick it up.
Heck, I guess I need to go to a shop and start looking at them to get oriented and to get her involved. Thanks for the help...I'm headed over to Macon Armory website now. I checked the Macon website...wow it's nice. So I'm liking that 8-1/2" 10MM upgrade...pricey...especially since I'll need to get a can for it.....
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I had a nice 1/2 hour conversation with Rudy, and bought my mag well adapter from him, but at the time I couldn't talk him into making a rotating bolt 9mm..
I talked with a good friend at SOCOM last night... he is a vocal proponent of .300BLK for home defense... I guess the dark side of SF has switched to .300BLK for some of their entry guns
in a MK18, 10.3" barrel, it would give you a reliable platform, upgrade the bullet weight and mitigate some of the velocity loss of a 5.56... you might think about it
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A 300 BLK with the heavy subsonic bullets it was designed for with a can it would be nice and quiet. Depending on the barrel length and what ammo you use, muzzle energy will probably be in the .45 ACP +P to .357 Magnum range.
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A 300 BLK with the heavy subsonic bullets it was designed for with a can it would be nice and quiet. Depending on the barrel length and what ammo you use, muzzle energy will probably be in the .45 ACP +P to .357 Magnum range.
From what I've read, 200gr and up .300BLK subsonics are in the medium to upper end of the .45 ACP +P range in muzzle energy (depending on mfg).
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8)
Just hanging out and watching this thread. I have a 45 Highpoint carbine, no comments please, It delivers the mail and has not had a functional issue that can be blamed on it yet. my reloads on the other had is a different conversation. Shooting the 45 ACP through the 16in barrel is soft and actually quite with little felt recoil. Only a 9 round mag and not a standard. I have taken an Ohio White Tail with it but missed one (operator error I am sure) the next year so I went back to the 12GA. They are now making a 10mm. Do not count them out completely. Would be better with a larger cap mag.
I am thinking about a PCC top end for an AR. Actually debating that vs 300 in either rifle or pistol. So I am wanting to watch this thread. At home defense distance all 3 would do the job. I kind of like the 16in barrel 45 because it actually is very quite and little flash to go with it.
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I saw a ballistics chart that showed Double Tap 300 AAC Blackout with a Sierra Matchking 240 grain with 561 ft/lbs ME at 1025 fps. But it looks like they quit making it. That's 12 ft/lbs less that the last .45 ACP +P ammo I bought which is actually more powerful than some .357 Magnum ammo.
Remington makes a 220 grain 300 BLK load with 503 ft/lbs at the muzzle, but Midway was selling Remington UMC 220 grain with 539 ft/lbs. I think they quit making that one. I've seen .357 Magnum loads listed very close to that, like the 158 grain Gold Dot at 535 ft/lbs. CorBon had a 240 grain 300 BLK with 533 ft/lbs. That's only a 2 ft/lb difference but I think they quit making it.
There's a lot of variation in the power of different loads with the same bullet weight and I honestly can't tell you who's making what at the moment. But there are/were 220 and 240 grain 300 BLK loads ~= in power to some .357 Magnum loads, but not the most powerful .357 loads. There are a lot of 300 BLK loads under 500 ft/lbs too.
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Well, you guys may be on the way of convincing me there is a place in the world for a 300 blk.
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With heavy subsonic bullets the 300 BLK has pistol-like muzzle energy, but the bullets are more aerodynamic and retain more of that energy as you get farther away.
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OK. The Macon Armory has both direct impingement and blowback...what up with that other than how it cycles? Is it just that with the direct impingement you can use existing lowers? The price on direct impingement is way higher than what a lower costs these days. These things must have been built and priced back in the Obama days when I could get $2k for a Bushmaster with 5,000 rounds through it.
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Rastus... any of the locked breech AR9s, like the CMMG Guard with a radially unlocking bolt, the SiG MPX with the short piston or any DI that unlocks the bolt shoots considerably softer than the blow back...naturally the catch is that they are much more expensive... most of the blow back 9mm use a bolt and buffer combination of about 21oz... gamers like myself limit the overall travel so that the bolt just clears the bolt hold open by 1/4" or so to limit the force exerted under recoil, and try to tune the buffer/spring with the ammunition... I shoot a 135 Bayou coated bullet with WSF that makes 130 power factor out of my G34, and about 146 out of the 16" carbine.. additionally, I use a hydraulic buffer... I found that the Enidine buffer greatly improves hit quality, more than reducing the dot movement
if I were to recommend an inexpensive blow back AR9, I'd look at Palmetto State Armory's forged lower, Glock format (as the cartridges strip off the magazine directly into the chamber)... you may want to fool with a 5oz or so buffer when you decide on what ammunition... their Gen4 bolt has a much preferable AR style extractor
for a non AR, about the only one I've shot is the CZ and did not like the ergonomics as it was "different" from all the AR's I shoot... I put a couple of rounds through a Beretta Storm, and early Marlin Camp rifle, but have not shot one of the new Ruger PC yet... the Ruger is I believe, a few bucks cheaper than the AR9s, but the AR platform is what I know something about, and over the years have acquired some specialty tools, triggers, comps, hand guards for them
after the Steel Challenge match, I pirated the Vortex Venom from the .22lr and it now is on the AR9, and a new Venom and YHM riser is on order
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I have been considering a pistol caliber AR thinking about 10mm. I have heard that it is a "hot" caliber in a standard pistol, and I was considering that the AR platform may make it more manageable but still retain the power of the 10mm.
Now you have me thinking about a short-barrelled .300BLK instead. Truth be told, I already had a .300BLK pistol in the works - interrupted by a wee move to GA. It avoids the whole new receivers issue and as Kenny just found out, they are pricey!
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I had a piece of "stepped sidewall" brass case rupture in my 9mm, even with a relatively light load... I think a .300BLK shot in a locked breech carbine would be a whole lot safer choice than a blow back 10mm... even though .300BLK it is pricey to shoot
for USPSA, most of the local shooters leave the 9mm brass on the ground to help speed up the squad... I buy it by the pound
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Just for the record, as it applies to my point of view on topics such as this: I don't do the match shooting game any more so my opinion is always skewed toward either defense, plinking, or hunting.
I guess it would boil down to intended use between a pistol caliber and the .300BLK.
If you use it for matches, the pistol ammo for practice and matches would be favorable due to cost.
If the intended use is self/home defense then it might be a wash...or possibly cheaper (or at least equal) for 20 rounds of Hornady .300 rifle ammo than for Hornady defensive ammo (I just paid $23 for a 20rd box). You still have to buy practice ammo for a defensive gun, but probably not as much as a match gun.
Reloading ammo might change the numbers some.
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If you want the softest shooting 10mm carbine and don't care if it's an AR or not there's the Kriss Vector. At an even 8 pounds it's not the lightest, but if you're not carrying it a lot that may not matter. They come in 5 different colors if that makes any difference. They're coming out with a mag extension adds 18 rounds to the capacity of a G20 magazine, for a total of 33 rounds. I read elsewhere that you can expect 900 ft/lbs from a 16" barrel. That's roughly double the ME of a 300 BLK subsonic but only 2/3 the ME of a supersonic 300 BLK.
https://kriss-usa.com/14-rifles/carbines/80-kriss-vector-gen-ii-crb-flat-dark-earth-kv10-cfd20
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Sunday... first match with the Vortex Venom on the AR9... really opened up the field of view... need to check the hold over for close targets... regards
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The Venom looks to be a similar "format" as the EOTech. If that's true, yes you should have a more open field of view and be quicker on target for targets within 15-25 yards....if it's like an EOTech.
I don't get a good sense of the size of the Venom....how does the size of the sight compare to the EOTech? It sure looks like it's a lot less bulky.
Thanks guys for the feedback. I've been away working and am still in West Texas....dang it. Not bad to visit but after a week it gets old coughing up caliche' dust. I'm probably not going to do the Kriss Vector...I want the AR pattern so I don't my wife doesn't have to learn controls again. So right now, I'm sitting on the fence on whether to go with the 10MM or 300 BLK and I wouldn't be there but except I haven't had time to ferret out ballistics and such.
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Rastus... the Venom is very small compared to what I perceive as holographic sights... I don't have an EOTech but have an older Bushnell I once used... the Venom is designed to fit on an auto loader pistol slide, and comes with a 1913 rail mounting plate as well as one for a factory prepped Glock... 1 3/4 long x 1 wide x 1 1/4 high.... I have mine mounted on a 1/2" riser... I have the 3 moa dot... the battery compartment is on top, and uses a 1632 coin battery
my USAF tech school was at Goodfellow AFB, San Angelo, Tx.... was treated very well by the locals back in 1970
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If the Kriss Vector handles as weird as it looks I wouldn't get one either. I'm an AR guy.
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Got it on the Venom. Looks like a good priced piece of kit. I put a Fastfire on my son's M&P 22 a few years ago and it was cool. I figured it would work well on a 22 for fast work..I need to look into that Venom instead. I'm thinking jackrabbits and a 10/22 at night along a pipeline right of way would be way cool combination.
And, San Angelo is a garden spot compared to Pyote! I went there to meet up wtih my wife at one of the dog shows she chases from time to time. San Angelo is a big sprawling town with water around....pretty nice place no one really knows about for such an arid area.
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Oh yeah, I forgot. So...what do you think about the Venom compared to a Trijicon RMR? I picked up one of those year before last to drop on a Canik. I haven't shot it much...less than 100 rounds maybe less than 50.
And then there is the Fastfire III I bought for my son. I need to get a venom when I get back from vacation and compare the three....
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I'm a Trijicon fan boy... I have a couple 4x32s, a 1.5x16, and an older reflex...the RMR was more than I wanted to pay for a sight that was on a game gun....especially one I was not sure I would like... (the Venom replaced two SPARCS).... if I were looking for a miniature reflex for a self defense use, it would be a Trijicon RMR
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I need to shoot with the RMR more than the pittance I have. Dot sights are great and they aren't. I generally pick up center of mass targets quicker with irons than I can the dots. I don't have down acquiring the RMR dot quickly.
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do you shoot with both eyes open?
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Yes I do. Sorry about the late reply...I was packing for 3 weeks in the Pacific when you posted last.
I need to get back to the range and put the RMR through some serious paces. I put 70 or 80 rounds through it last week. I think part of my problem is shooting too many pistols and not settling on one or two.
Regardless, I picked up a plate rack and several other steel targets and put them up last week. I'm going to get serious...at least every couple of weeks over a weekend...with my shooting again.
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Rastus... a couple of comments... a traditional blow back pistol caliber carbine has more recoil than a 5.56, just a lot less muzzle blast...I think a 10mm blow back would be a problem do to the high pressure and danger of rupturing a case on extraction... I have 3, 10.5" ARs configured in 5.56, and for home defense it would be my choice over a pistol caliber in terms of reliability... mine are fitted with a linear comp (LeVang) that pushes a lot of blast forward...that being said if you decide to down grade to a 9mm, I've been playing with an AR9 for about 3 years now
Rudy Koester of Macon Armory makes .45 and 10mm that are IIRC a locked breech design
my AR9 for USPSA use is a Glock format New Frontier Armory billet lower with a RRA trigger, the upper/barrel/fore end is a Palmetto State Armory with a NFA bolt with an AR style extractor,
PSA has a forged Glock format lower a friend uses, and would be my choice for a "do over" as well as a complete PSA upper and their gen4 bolt with AR extractor..
my Colt style with magazine well adapter unit on my SBR broke the last round bolt hold open after only two lock backs... my competition Glock format does not have LRBHO... the Glock magazines feed directly into the chamber from a single cartridge release where the Colt style lowers feed from a double side feed magazine and have an integral feed ramp... I recommend the Glock format
if you decide on the AR PCC I can probably help you on specific questions... please feel free to ask
Les
Bumped to mention CMMG has a 45/10mm upper reciever.
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Man those things are pricey. I got off track with the dang virus and fixing up this old farm. I need to get back on track with this project.
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Man those things are pricey. I got off track with the dang virus and fixing up this old farm. I need to get back on track with this project.
I think CMMG makes them from gold. ;D
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2 years. I'd have totally forgotten about a project and used the parts for something else.
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late follow up on the RMR2... bought one for my birthday present, last October was the 1 year anniversary, and changed out the 2032 battery... one year continuous use... it is on a G17.3 and was milled by BattleWerx.... excellent machine work and pretty quick turn around
the G17.3 is currently in a Recover Tactical 20/20 brace
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late follow up on the RMR2... bought one for my birthday present, last October was the 1 year anniversary, and changed out the 2032 battery... one year continuous use... it is on a G17.3 and was milled by BattleWerx.... excellent machine work and pretty quick turn around
the G17.3 is currently in a Recover Tactical 20/20 brace
Pictures Les. We need something we can imagine we are fondling.....
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2 years. I'd have totally forgotten about a project and used the parts for something else.
Old age Alf....old age. Heck I did something similar with my.....what was that?
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late follow up on the RMR2... bought one for my birthday present, last October was the 1 year anniversary, and changed out the 2032 battery... one year continuous use... it is on a G17.3 and was milled by BattleWerx.... excellent machine work and pretty quick turn around
the G17.3 is currently in a Recover Tactical 20/20 brace
Does the milling weaken the slide, and would a CZ 75 compact, or Witness P have enough meat to hold up with those cuts and 10MM ?
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Rastus, Tom... I don't have a posting site so unless someone can transfer some pictures... I have e-mailed pictures to individuals if you send your e-mail
Tom... the Trijicon RMR2 slightly overhangs the edge of a Glock 9mm slide about .050" on each side... the Glock slide is about 1.005" wide, don't have any of the CZs around... I would be very doubtful that the milling would weaken the slide, though any non radius cuts might in the future cause stress points... the profile used by BattleWerx is to machine a pair of studs down through which the attachment cap screws are threaded... the fore and aft machine work is so precise on my pistol, the concave front cut centers the sight, and the close tolerances transfer the horizontal shear force directly to the slide and most likely not much is absorbed by the studs... I changed out the battery on my birthday... one year of constant on
my other RDS is on a Swensen slide from Brownells and is cut by them for a Vortex Venom.... if I had the opportunity for a "do over" I would have chosen a HoloSun 507c... I'm really impressed with the 510 and 507 that I have on my competition .22s for Steel Challenge
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Rastus, Tom... I don't have a posting site so unless someone can transfer some pictures... I have e-mailed pictures to individuals if you send your e-mail
Tom... the Trijicon RMR2 slightly overhangs the edge of a Glock 9mm slide about .050" on each side... the Glock slide is about 1.005" wide, don't have any of the CZs around... I would be very doubtful that the milling would weaken the slide, though any non radius cuts might in the future cause stress points... the profile used by BattleWerx is to machine a pair of studs down through which the attachment cap screws are threaded... the fore and aft machine work is so precise on my pistol, the concave front cut centers the sight, and the close tolerances transfer the horizontal shear force directly to the slide and most likely not much is absorbed by the studs... I changed out the battery on my birthday... one year of constant on
my other RDS is on a Swensen slide from Brownells and is cut by them for a Vortex Venom.... if I had the opportunity for a "do over" I would have chosen a HoloSun 507c... I'm really impressed with the 510 and 507 that I have on my competition .22s for Steel Challenge
Thank You ! ;D
I want to assemble another AR pistol first, but I'm going to be saving for a site and some milling work. ;D
I don't have any reputable GUN machining around here so I'll be checking prices at places YOU ALL recommend.
The square corner creating a stress point is the sort of tribal knowledge that keeps me from going to some one I used to work with. None of the ones still around have gun experience.
Why would you prefer the Holosun ?
I'll probably be ready to actually send out the slide in 6 months or a year.
I've managed with iron sites this long I'm not in a blazing rush, although I am eager to get it finished and tried out. ;D
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Tom... re: Holosun... I have three, two 510, and a 507... the 510 has a jumbo tron view through the lens, and for a competition gun, allows me to track the steel much better... both models have an integral solar cell, the small 507 is on the bridge protecting the lens, and the 510 on the flat behind the lens... they have automatic brightening as the ambient light increases so does the dot brightness...the 1632/2032 cells are not rechargable and the solar cells power the LED with available light..., they both have a "shake awake" function that instantly turns them on...the 510 has a usable circle, circle dot, and dot reticle option... the small one also, but the diameter of the circle is too small for my use... price wise they were in the $310 range, about $75 more than the Vortex, and $150 less than the Trijicon
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Yes, I was looking online and I REALLY like the idea of the solar cell. ;D
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we get some bright ass sunlight, and it helps to keep the dot bright
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we get some bright ass sunlight, and it helps to keep the dot bright
That's less of an issue in NH, but remembering to buy batteries can be. ;D
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Hey, Rastus,
Did you ever decide what kind of PCC you were gonna build? I did a blowback 9mm a few years ago. I used a CMMG lower that was set up for Colt-type 9mm stick mags. I've been happy with it. It runs well and doesn't beat me up that much, even with the narrow Blade brace. I can provide a parts list if you're interested. If I built another, I would NOT use the stupid gas deflector ejection port cover. It was a PITA to install, and I don't think it does that much. I do like the SMG-type mags. IMHO, they're more reliable than the vaunted Glock mags.
All my best...
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Aero Precision launched their EPC-9 receiver sets for 9mm or 40S&W AR builds a few days ago. Coming soon will be the EPC-10 lineup for 10mm or 45ACP AR builds. The EPC-9 receiver set accepts standard frame GLOCK magazines and has a last round bolt hold open integrated into the upper receiver. The EPC-10 will be the same, only bigger and better. An EPC-10 carbine in 10mm would be EPIC.
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/epc
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I am pretty set...at least today...to get a 10MM. I'm waiting now for prices to come down or a job.... I hate spending retirement $$$'s on that right now. Maybe after I sell some livestock but that's out a ways waiting on the cows, donkeys and dogs to produce something to sell.
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I am pretty set...at least today...to get a 10MM. I'm waiting now for prices to come down or a job.... I hate spending retirement $$$'s on that right now. Maybe after I sell some livestock but that's out a ways waiting on the cows, donkeys and dogs to produce something to sell.
I got that Aero Precision pistol in 10 mm.
LOVE IT !
HOWEVER, it is a COMMERCIAL design that lacks some of the simplicity of the AR's.
The only 10 mm AR upper I can think of is CMMG, expensive, but probably worth it if you can afford it.
10MM is now one of the less expensive calibers.
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CMMG is way high priced. I need that price to fall. A 9MM or a 45 may be a better choice in so far as keeping the caliber count down but they just don't do what the 10MM can do.
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45 will be the same price.
It's what the 10 mm was originally designed for.
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I am pretty set...at least today...to get a 10MM. I'm waiting now for prices to come down or a job.... I hate spending retirement $$$'s on that right now. Maybe after I sell some livestock but that's out a ways waiting on the cows, donkeys and dogs to produce something to sell.
Ya got a herd of dairy dogs? :)
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Nope. Blue Healers, Papillons and a Catahoula that's really nice.
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;D I don't know what your talking about, but "Papillon" is French for butterfly and I just use a flyswatter on those.
10mm is a bit excessive. ;D
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;D I don't know what your talking about, but "Papillon" is French for butterfly and I just use a flyswatter on those.
10mm is a bit excessive. ;D
Nice. And I'm going to leave it like that because I'll say something that somehow my wife will find out about dogs and WW5284 will break out.
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a question for you guys shooting a 10mm carbine... I get some funny looking pieces of brass coming out of my PCC with minimum power factor loads... how much case deformation are you getting on a blow back 10mm?
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Nope. Blue Healers, Papillons and a Catahoula that's really nice.
I was wondering how dogs were going to pay off. Papillon breeding can pay off, I suppose. I had to look up Catahoula because I didn't know what they were. Some of them have really nice looking coats. Interesting patterns in attractive colors. I think one guy I know has, or had, a Blue Heeler. Most of the dogs my friends and family have or had are Labs and a couple of German Shepherds and just plain mutts, also a Beagle and a Jack Russell Terrier. My dad and uncles and their friends always had a few breeds of coon hounds/bear hounds, but I don't know anyone who hunts with dogs anymore. The only house dog my family ever had caught a partridge when my older brother took him for a walk in the woods. Not bad for a mutt who spent his life in the city. My brother had a hard time getting to where he could pop the bird with his .22 without hitting the dog. He should have wrung its neck.
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a question for you guys shooting a 10mm carbine... I get some funny looking pieces of brass coming out of my PCC with minimum power factor loads... how much case deformation are you getting on a blow back 10mm?
I never checked .
But next time I go shooting I will.
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How are you doing now? Have you built it? By the way, my friend decided to give me a gun for my birthday. He knows that I have long dreamed of learning shooting, so he decided to give me such a gift. In your opinion, which is better-9mm vs 45? (https://bulkmunitions.com/9mm-vs-45-which-is-better/) As I know 45 is better because it shoots a bigger caliber bullet, but the 9mm is better because of its capacity so it may allow you to defend against multiple attackers. I would be grateful to hear any of your advice and suggestions. I hope for your help and thank you in advance!
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How are you doing now? Have you built it?
You will have to excuse them.
They are old and their minds, what's left, wander.
It's why their wives don't take them shopping any more. ;D ;D ;D