The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: kilopaparomeo on March 07, 2010, 05:49:19 PM
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Well, I've searched the forum pretty extensively and have either used the wrong search terms or have overlooked the specific thread. My google fu also reveals only a few hits that are relevant. Here's the deal.
As some of you have seen, my collection is around 105 guns (haven't done a count recently). None are "collector grade" e.g., $5000+ guns, however, quite a few are $1000-2000 guns and/or historical firearms. Today, I have a couple of small safes that the higher value firearms sit in and the lower value ones are on wall racks. These all exist in a locked basement room with dehumidifiers.
I want a secure, fireproof solution. I've looked into the really large (e.g., 60-75 capacity) gun safes. The biggest issues are
1) that the guns are really packed in there and tend to get "dinged" when I get them out
2) these safes are HEAVY and difficult to move...especially since I need to have them in the basement. Lots of twists and turns to get them there.
So, I'm seriously considering a walk in vault. A few companies will custom build them (such as http://www.rhinovault.com/index.html ). I'm also looking into having a mason build one using rebar reinforced, concrete filled cinder block. Climate controlled and lighted. Fireproof vault door. I'm thinking a room roughly 6x8 or 8x10 would work well.
Now the question -- where to find plans?
Does anyone know someone that is qualified to design rooms like this? Are there plans available that can be purchased?
Info is appreciated.
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You could look at some of the old "fallout shelter" plans. While they were intended to be in cellars/basements, it might give you some ideas.
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You are not going to find "plans" there are several reason for this. every thing from local building codes, to people want to get paid.
Its not as simple and retro fiting walls and wiz bang boom done.
I would be more then happy to speak with you about generalizations, and what needs to be done, but there is a bunch of questions I need answered 1st.
like
what kind of foundation do you have?
what kind of soil conditions do you have?
above of bellow grade?
what kind of protection are you looking for?
budget?
I think you get the idea.
PS if you like I can PM you my phone number and we can talk more about this... I'm a general contractor. And yes I have built several of these over the years to store things like guns, art, computers, wine... you name it.
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I live in tornado country and I would think that a safe room would meet your needs quite well.
Stew
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KPR, since you already have a basement, which I assume has brick walls, Your more than halfway there, if you have ground level windows, then seal them off with concrete or steel, then put in a very sturdy steel door for the entrance, including, if you want to go high tech, a hydraulic cylinder operated door. If the ceiling is wood then you would want to reinforce with concrete, if it is already brick or concrete, the fire is not a problem unless there is fuel and 02 present.
I so wish I could have a basement here in Dallas.
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Be sure to include a good investment in firewalls. Most are rated 1hr, 2hr, kinda like bulkheads on a ship.. Many options are out there.
With a brick walled basement, you should be able to construct a cell sized "walk-in vault", with burn walls and lighting, even an outlet or two for de-humidifiers, etc,...
What about your ammo? same room ?
I would opt for commercial grade studs, ditch the wood, morter up an interior fortification, and look into steel doors similar to watertight doors on ships, or a commercial grade steel door. You have the "couple" pistols or so worth protecting. ;)
It can get as secure as you can afford, but even great options are out there even if your not re-building Ft. Knox.
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m25 its alot more too it then that, alot more.
Things like moisture control, settling, radon in some areas, building codes, etc etc.
most people think they can just use thier existing foundation wall(s) for one or more of thier "vault" walls, they are very much mistaken. Doing so will lead to a whol bunch of probs that will be $$$$$ to fix later, things like water seapage, uneven settling and structural failures. All of those can and would hapen if you were to build a masonary type structure and connect it to your foundation.
dehumidifiers for example are basicly an AC but in reverse, they produce lots of water and use the same power as a AC unit. Now you have a higher power bill and you have to deal with the water. I could go on for days about this type of thing and go into great detail about. Its not as simple as "lets just make a concreate box and throw a metal door in it."
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If its anything like my father in laws basement in MD, he has a sump pump also. When the heavy rains come, that pump runs quite a bit. He has had it fail, and ended up with a flooded basement. (Which would suck if there was a gun vault, wine cellar, etc down there).
All good points to consider.
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With a good mason the plans are nothing more than a basic floor plan and knowledge of the door requirements.
One thing I learned from research several years ago is to build a room within a room. Build the main room, including the poured concrete ceiling. Then build a second "room" around the first, including poured concrete roof with a six inch insulated gap between the two. Use refractory grade materials for the joints, filling and poured items on the outer "room".
In our part of the country most older homes have cisterns that are no longer used. People will add a concrete ceiling and vault door for a secure room for valuables and shelter. Most of these are eight to ten inch poured concrete walls, so cutting the doors into them is a major project.
Good luck, and keep us informed.
P.S.
Bring electricity up from below.
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Is a rental an option? Being Palm Beach County, I know there are a few places that offer secure storage vaults. No, I'm not talking about storage lockers. Basically, its exactly what you are talking about, a large, walk in saftey deposit vault with temp and humidity control for art, wine etc. The market is basically seaonal folks who want to secure the good art and people with big wine collections etc. I am sure here in Fl.guns are not a problem (ammo probably would be). If you could keep half the collection somewhere lke this, and then get a large safe or two for the rest, you might save money over building one of your own. I 'm not reccomending it, but I would look around.
FQ13
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All really great comments...TAB, I'll send some more specific comments to you and maybe we can even schedule a call. I'm travelling in Italy for business next week and this week is packed, so the communication may be "bursty" via email. Also, I don't want to "wear out my welcome" taking advantage of your knowledge.
All said, I know that this would be easier if I was building a new home and could build from scratch...retrofitting is more difficult. The specifics of the location are as follows:
- The room where I want to put this vault has a poured concrete floor and cinderblock walls. It is below grade and there are no windows. One of the big issues is that the ceiling above is relatively low...~ a little over 7 ft... with wood stringers for the floor above. To me, this is a problem to get a ceiling structure on the "box".
- I live about 50 yards from the shoreline of Lake Michigan and the soil is completely sand. Most houses here don't have gutters on them because the rainfall never pools and rarely do people here on the beach have sump pumps. In fact, 2 years ago we had torrential rains that flooded basements, caused landslides "up on the bluff" above the beach. No one on the beach (including us) even got a drop of water in our basements. I'm assuming that means it isn't very stable either...however given that this is inside a house does this matter?
- I am assuming that I will be running electrical into it for lights and a dehumidifier. Also assuming I will need a ventilation system of some kind with a fire damper
- I will buy a fireproof vault door from one of the safe manufacturers
- As to budget, since the location is difficult to move a massive safe into, my budget is trying to stay somewhere at or under the cost of 2-3 smaller fireproof safes. Assuming this means $4-5K. I really don't know if what I want can be done for this amount.
KPR out
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Pictures and or a video tour upon completion is a must! ;D
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A guy at the range told me once about a home-built gun vault he'd seen. He said the guy ordered a safe door and hinges from one of the big safe makers for a fair price. He dug four corner holes and put steel reinforced pads 4' deep with anchor ties. He then built a steel frame that was about 6' W x 8' L x 6' H. He then skinned the outside with 1/2" plate steel and the inside with 3/8" plate. The bottom was 1/2" also. Then he poured the 6" space between the inner and outer walls with a fireproof refractory like they use in melting furnaces. (**Note" I used to work with refractory and it mixes and pours like concrete.). After the stuff set up, he capped the top with 1/2" steel.
It wasn't cheap by any means, but it sounds like it was sturdy.
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I am very anti-brick/block, but very pro poured concrete.
In my opinion, traditionally placed brick and/or block is akin to a chain. And as we all know, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, which in my opinion, would be the mortar.
That said...I am not all that familiar with how strong a block wall can get if you filled the cavities up with concrete...considering that the cavities are always going to be offset by ... I guess...at least 50%....which I am guessing could limit how big of an aggregate you can actually have in the mix.
A smaller aggregate would allow the wet concrete to flow in and around the cavities better and fill them more completely.
But does a smaller aggregate lead to weaker concrete?
Now, this is just me...kinda thinking out loud here...but with the weight of a vault door slamming shut and when the door is swung 90 degrees to the wall will the weight of it levering itself out away from a block will....over time, will the wall withstand that kind of "abuse"?
I can just picture cracks in the wall or the mortar'ed joints spreading outward from the vault door's frame.
The other thing to keep in mind is that just because your basement floor is concrete it might not be thick enough to withstand the weight of a concrete block wall on top of it.
I have been in homes before where the "sub-grade" under the basement slab wasn't all that smooth or level, so in some places you could have 3 inches of concrete or you could just have one inch.
If you put enough block on a floor so thin, I am thinking it is going to start cracking. :(
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Tyler,
I like poured much more than block, but we are talking about retrofit in an existing building. In this situation it is much easier and almost as strong to use block and fill the cores around rods.
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Not to be a buzzkill, because I am learning a lot from this thread, but I have a question. How much is really good insurance, say $1k deductible, vs the Fortress of Solitude? I mean you have some irreplacables. Put those in a safe. The rest? Trust to a good alarm and a good insuror. Not a suggestion, just a question.
FQ13
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My insurance is about $1 per thousand on guns and the such. Not much in the big picture, and you can't buy a safe with that money. The bigger issue is personal responsibility in containing guns and ammo, hassle of replacing everything, not making your home an easy target, and the protection of the priceless items like grandpa's old gun.
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In the same vein as replacing Grandpa's old gun....
There are obviously some of the guns in our OP's collection that aren't being made any more.
How does the insurance company put a value on those?
Then if they do get stolen or burnt up in a fire, how do they do right by our OP either by compensating him for the loss or getting a replacement?
My guess is that they won't do right (because, hey, they are a business like any other and they are out to make a profit just like any other business) or they can't.
I would NOT necessarily rely on the insurance company to take care of me/my needs/my wants.
Anywhooo...I am not so certain that concrete filled block is going to be a strong as a poured concrete wall...which yeah, I have to agree with ya...would be impossible to do in a retrofit situation.
How much does a vault door way?
What kind of leverage or "moment arm" does an open door produce on a wall?
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My guns are insured on an agreed value. I list them, put an honest value on them (purchase price, replacement price, or a combination of the two), I update the value every few years, and in a loss the company pays the insured amount.
This is the way jewelry and collectibles are insured. It is more like life insurance than property insurance.
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My guns are insured on an agreed value. I list them, put an honest value on them (purchase price, replacement price, or a combination of the two), I update the value every few years, and in a loss the company pays the insured amount.
This is the way jewelry and collectibles are insured. It is more like life insurance than property insurance.
I don't think I made myself clear. If I were kilo, I WOULD, buy a smaller safe for the irreplaceables. The rest of the herd? Again, maybe insurance is the way to go. I trust TAB on contracting. He may be a bit of a perfectionist (which is what you want in a contractor as opposed to the reverse) but I would take him at his word when he says "Its not as cheap and easy as it sounds". Thing is, I think if you have an alarm, lock your doors, don't put out boneheaded signs saying "Guns are here, please steal them", and pay your property taxes to fund the police, you have done due diligence in protecting your firearms (assuming no kids). I'm not saying insurance is the way to go, just that it should be a cost benefit/analysis.
FQ13
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I really appreciate everyone's open dialog on this.
In the end, I have the dream of having a kick@$$ walk in gun vault that houses everything I own in a secure, fireproof and OPEN area. Some of it is for practical purposes and some of it is vain...I'd just really like one. That said, I'm learning a ton from this thread and will certainly go as far a pricing out what it will take.
If the cost becomes prohibitive, I'll probably move to getting a couple of really good 45 gun safes and put the "good stuff" in there. Everything else that can be replaced easily (generic Remchesters) can go in the lesser safes / storage boxes.
Again, thanks guys.
KPR out.
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I'll send you a PM.
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You could always go the billt Greenlee route.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=7060.0
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You could always go the billt Greenlee route.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=7060.0
I'm finding out that whatever "safe" you buy, it isn't big enough, and fills up too fast. That, and you start running out of places to put them. I'm in the same boat as kilopaparomeo. No basements here in Arizona. Going the cast concrete wall route you have to be sure of the footing that will support it. That means possibly drilling down to pour solid footings to build on. That gets real expensive, real fast. Plus, in a subdivision you might as well put up a sign in your front yard that says, "A lot of valuables will be kept here!" You'll be the talk of the town no matter if you like it or not.
That in itself causes break ins. Word of mouth is your biggest danger in owning guns. Not to mention the talk the permits would generate from local building inspectors at the local bars on Friday night. Never underestimate how much people talk about you, or what you have. All it takes is one wrong person to hear it. Nothing will generate more talk to the wrong people than a teenage daughter who brings a lot of boys over to your house. They see everything, and talk to everyone. Boys and guns generate way too much inquisitiveness. It not if, but when you'll get hit. I'm lucky in that regard, we have no children and entertain very little, if at all.
The biggest problem with gun collections is you acquire them over the span of many years. A bit like growing out of your pants. By the time you notice it, you have no more room. I think the best protection at this stage of the game is just to stay home! Besides it's cheaper! ;D Bill T.
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Maybe a ditch, concertina wire and a couple of fifty gallon drums of Foo Gas? A lot cheaper and no permit recquired! ;D
FQ13
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Maybe a ditch, concertina wire and a couple of fifty gallon drums of Foo Gas? A lot cheaper and no permit recquired! ;D
FQ13
What's "Foo Gas"? Styrofoam and gasoline? Bill T.
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What's "Foo Gas"? Styrofoam and gasoline? Bill T.
http://dailygunpictures.blogspot.com/2009/11/weapons-explosives-foo-gas-us-military.html
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I am chiming in on this thread just because I stumbled across it... I will probably start a new one;
Does anyone have any pictures of their process and finalized vault?
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Not a bad thread to restart...I've gotten to the point where I need another gun safe. Maybe I need to include a walk-in safe with a remodel...
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not a vault, but I'll throw this out... one friend built a hidden end to his leisure room... steel studs, with steel pipe between studs every 10" or so... inside the pipe were short pieces of cold rolled steel, separated by ball bearings designed to roll if attacked by chain saw or hack saw... the door was concealed as the entire end of the room was done in a shake shingle pattern that camouflaged the entrance
second friend built his into his cedar closet, but used a hidden magnetic switch to activate a solenoid to release the door.... just touch the wall in a certain spot with a magnet, and the door would pop open... he was a registered safe opener/locksmith and believed that out of sight was the better option than physical security
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I am lucky enough to be building a house right now and have designed it so the entire front porch 8'x20' has a safe room below it. Access to that room is from the basement and is hidden. It has an industrial steel door with multiple locks. Inside that room I have various safes and steel lockers for firearms and other goodies. also a lot of room for emergency supplies, food, medical, etc...
Can you build a porch or similar on your house??
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I like the out-of-sight out of mind comment Les. I have a friend that had the same.
This thread got me to thinking since I need to hide a few new acquisitions. We have a walking closet that is too big...there is center space that is unused except for a pile of junk. If I move in my back wall no one will notice without measuring.
Ideas on fireproofing? That would be the booger for me.
So, Pikuptruk, no pictures but maybe you'll stick around and banter a bit with us. Got any research to share on this?
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If anyone is still wondering about Foo Gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_fougasse
The Quaker may have been on to something. :)
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I like the out-of-sight out of mind comment Les. I have a friend that had the same.
This thread got me to thinking since I need to hide a few new acquisitions. We have a walking closet that is too big...there is center space that is unused except for a pile of junk. If I move in my back wall no one will notice without measuring.
Ideas on fireproofing? That would be the booger for me.
So, Pikuptruk, no pictures but maybe you'll stick around and banter a bit with us. Got any research to share on this?
There are several brands of fire proof or resistant insulation available.
http://airkrete.com/fireproof.php
http://www.atlassprayfoam.com/our-services/fireproofing/
http://www.cfoam.com/fireproofcore/
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Too bad it would cost too much to insulate the whole house with Aerogel. It's the best insulating material ever made. The lightest kind ever made was 99.98% air. 99% down to 95% air or other gas is normally used. They make it into insulating blankets and other things. I like this picture on the Wikipedia page. Also, most Aerogels can hold 2,000 times their weight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel
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Fire rated drywall(2 layers even better) is actually pretty good at keeping out most fires. And it is cheap.
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Fire rated drywall. Somewhere along the way I had picked up that when heated gypsum has water that is released from it's matrix which moderates the rate of increase in temperature. And it doesn't burn well after the water is released.
Aerogel...yep good stuff but at $300 for a 2' x 4' sheet it's very expensive. Also, it's fragile unless you get the aerogel composite blankets...at the same price...and you still have to be careful not to mash it or you wasted $300.
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My safe isn't the most heat resistant one out there. And being in the basement of my house, I've always wondered how hot it would get in the event of a major fire.
Since the bulk of the water lines run near by, I thought I put a water line directly over the safe. I could then put a sprinkler head. Or go cheap and just plastic (not pvc) cap on the end to melt if thing ever got really hot.
Any thoughts?
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Firearms insurance!
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I thought about putting 5 gallon water bottles on top of my safe. If it get's really hot they will boil over taking heat away...it's a stretch knowing how much they may help.
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Firearms insurance!
NRA ArmsCare Plus. It wouldn't cover your guns being radioactive after being nuked, but let's face it, you'd have bigger problems to deal with. But it covers a lot of other things. My home-owner's insurance covers little if anything.
I'm not sure about drywall, but everything else seems to burn at the edges first. On a double layer of even regular drywall, with the seams on one layer 16 inches away from the the seams on the other layer, even if it started to burn through at the edges of one layer, there's no seam under it for the fire to go the rest of the way through. Maybe it would slow it down a little.
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I pay a little extra for a rider to cover some of the cost of my guns.
However, I'd rather come away, after a fire, with my guns than a promise to reimburse me later.