The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: alfsauve on March 23, 2012, 03:38:10 PM
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<This will come in installments.>
Today I took possession of a brand NIB Smith and Wesson 625JM. It's the first "new" (21st century) S&W I've purchased since 1984. All mine others are pre-2000 made except this one. I got it from Bud's in KY and it costs, $788 out the door. Bud's price was $780 and shipping was $8 (I think their on-line checkout made a mistake). My dealer charged me nothing for the transfer. Even at $30 this would have come in a $818. Learned something about Bud's. They don't stock most of the stuff in their on-line "store" but have it dropped shipped from the distributor or the manufacturer. Also learned that the distriubtors may stop doing that and Bud's will have to actually stock the merchandise. That could cause their prices to go up.
So I was anxious as to how I would like it. Would the "infernal lock" bother me as much as I feared? What changes have they made. Is this something I could shoot in competition? (IDPA and Bowling Pin)
Went straight from the sales counter to the my lane on the range. Everyone in the store, including the employees came to drool over it. Pretty wood grip and of course nice matte stainless steel finish. Many had never seen a gold bead front sight, and they were impressed how easy it is to sight. A few had never seen moon clips in action nor understood their purpose, so we had a little lesson.
Here's the basic picture:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FZ71kwYmT1w/T2zWti2GEsI/AAAAAAAAoJc/0on5YREBuw8/s912/IMG_6668.JPG)
The grip is a ONE piece wooden grip and feels really good in my hand. I ended today's practice with several "Bill Drills" and not once did I notice it slipping or twisting during the rapid fire.
The double action pull is stiff but clean and crisp. I had no problem with it and was doing some fantastic groupings. The single action pull (not something you use a lot with this type of gun) was a little harder than I'd like. More so than in my other Smith's. I must keep in mind it has only had 180 rounds through it ... so far.
And yes, the gold bead front sight is great. Requires less light than an fiber optic. It doesn't do a lot for long range single action sighting, but again, that's not what this gun is for.
Now to the problem. As this board encourages each to learn from our mistakes, I'm having doubts whether this is a good purchase. I needed a 4" gun for IDPA, but I'm not sure this is going to live up to what I'd expect with JM's name on it.
The problem is in the chamber chamfer (bevel). Or should I say the lack of bevel. Without a bevel it makes the straight walled .45ACP cases hard to line up and feed. Here's a picture of the older, standard 625-2 (left) next to the 625JM.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1r5LV7PMPIE/T2zWsc8td5I/AAAAAAAAoJU/8bIe3BQA_es/s720/IMG_6663.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6Gf2WEEraTY/T2zWqh0IkMI/AAAAAAAAoJM/RKoSKvnCQmk/s720/IMG_6662.JPG)
Now here's a close-up of the older gun where you can see the bevel. Also notice how the extractor ends fit pretty well with the chamber edges and how the extractor ends are cut at six different angles. Almost circular.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BqFgNKUB-ew/T2zWpV6ZI7I/AAAAAAAAoJE/Gh5MKdu9wps/s720/IMG_6661.JPG)
Now compare this to the new 625JM. No bevel. Look closely at the ends of the extractor.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QDOpAnBQwwQ/T2zWoW4O_xI/AAAAAAAAoI8/EmNmsI675AI/s720/IMG_6659.JPG)
No bevel and the ends of the extractor don't fit at all. Plus notice how S&W now only cuts/mills the extractor at 4 different angles not 6. Square shaped. That's not a problem per se, just a change in manufacturing and fitting, but the lack of bevel is definitely a negative.
I've posted a question the S&W Forum and sent an email to S&W factory customer service. If this is on purpose then I'm very disappointed in the JM and might even try to get a message to him about it. If it's an oversight, I'm hoping S&W will correct. If not, a chamber chamfer tool is $101, or (better option) I could take it to my gun smith ... for about $100.
Otherwise I do like the gun and think I could have fun shooting it in competition. I've got the moon clips "holsters" I just need to order the holster (Bianchi) for IDPA.
<more to follow>
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it's been a long time, and may well have been on the .357 and not the .45, but I think I chamfered mine with a cartridge case deburring tool....have done several others with a machinist's chamfering tool
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If you extend the lines of the cuts on the extractor ends it appears square. Much cheaper to machine four straight edges than to interpolate a radial cut of the previous design. Not saying that's better but it's plausible. It also appears that they forgot the final machining of the chamber after extractor fitting as you say they don't fit!
Do the cylinders interchange?
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If you extend the lines of the cuts on the extractor ends it appears square. Much cheaper to machine four straight edges than to interpolate a radial cut of the previous design. Not saying that's better but it's plausible. It also appears that they forgot the final machining of the chamber after extractor fitting as you say they don't fit!
Do the cylinders interchange?
Yes the older extractors are flat on the end but were cut at 6 different angles (hex), while the new ones apparently are cut by turning the tool (or piece) only 4 times. I don't care for look of the finished product. Just doesn't seem "proper", though it probably works just as well. I can get over that part, just like I can ignore the "infernal lock".
Timothy, probably the cylinders would work, but they are fitted to the frame, the hand and the stop. It'll more than likely be a sloppy fit at best and at worst the gun could lock up or break the hand.
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Yeah, say interpolate three times fast.... ::)
Still a beauty, I see the "potential" in a "weaker extractor design"....Especially in the heat of competition and reloading.
However, it's still a S&W, and a bad a** one at that. Contact S&W's Performance center, be the squeaky wheel, and I bet they will make it right.
Not saying they didn't do it right, as a good n hot range report would be needed. But if "you" don't find it acceptable, S&W will make sure to keep you as a faithful customer.
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Interpolate, interpolate, interpolate... ;D
verb
1. to introduce (something additional or extraneous) between other things or parts; interject; interpose; intercalate.
2. Mathematics . to insert, estimate, or find an intermediate term in a sequence.
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Interpolate, interpolate, interpolate... ;D
verb
1. to introduce (something additional or extraneous) between other things or parts; interject; interpose; intercalate.
2. Mathematics . to insert, estimate, or find an intermediate term in a sequence.
smarty-pants...... ;D
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<This will come in installments.>
Today I took possession of a brand NIB Smith and Wesson 625JM.
Alf, have you considered getting professional help? I mean, for the whole wheel gun thing? ? And maybe for the Glock obsession too?
I hear they have wonderful treatment programs at the Sig Academy . . . . . ;)
Nice gun. Not my style, but nice gun.
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The square shape to the extractor just looks wrong no matter what the reason is. Other than that I like it.
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Absolutely beautiful revolver. Not sure if I would want to use it for competition. Too pretty to get dirty! ;D Hope you get it fixed the way you want it.
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Absolutely beautiful revolver. Not sure if I would want to use it for competition. Too pretty to get dirty! ;D Hope you get it fixed the way you want it.
Shoot, it had 175 rounds through it within an hour of the transfer. It'll get another 100 rounds this week. The reason for using it in competition is the barrel length can't exceed 4.5" for SSR in IDPA.
I got took. I failed to read the details and it never occurred to me this would be an issue. But the 625JM signature does NOT come with beveled chambers. The model up, the 625PC (Performance Center) does however. I assumed (silly me) that since JM is the fastest revolver reloader in the world...ever, that his signature model would have had beveled chambers. I do realize his guns are highly modified from stock configurations, but you'd think at least this feature would have been included.
All's not lost, I've been practicing with dummy rounds and with a little technique I can get those rounds to drop in pretty fast. Not as fast as with my plain, 30 year old 625-2.
Also it appears that chamfering isn't very expensive and I may send this back to Smith to have them do the work. Somewhere around $50 from what I'm told. I could by the tool myself from Brownell's for $101, but nah, not on a NIB gun. I'll let a pro do this.
BUT, I still think the extractor fit is crappy. None of my other Smith's have such ill fitting extractors. Then again, once the chambers are chamfered the extractor will fit perfectly, so that's a savings in the modification.
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Alf, if you listen to him he will tell you that his revos are not modified! I will say that the number of rounds he puts downrange and the number of times he dryfires them will help to smooth them out. I would assume they have to be rebuilt then and he has to start all over again.
Gun Broker lists the JM as having a 4" barrel so you should be good to go for IDPA.
FWIW
Richard
PS: Have to sell something first but hope to have a 4" .45 revo myself in the near future.
PPS: Try to find someone locally to chamfer. Shipping is expensive and I don't think S&W will foot the bill for that.
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Just to complicate things, a lot of guys are using .45GAP brass in their 625's. The shorter case means there is less tilt to the round when in the moon clip so they load a little easier. Load some up just for competition. It shouldn't be too hard to keep everything separate since they fall out of the gun in neat little piles. ;D
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Alf, if you listen to him he will tell you that his revos are not modified! I will say that the number of rounds he puts downrange and the number of times he dryfires them will help to smooth them out. I would assume they have to be rebuilt then and he has to start all over again.
PS: Have to sell something first but hope to have a 4" .45 revo myself in the near future.
PPS: Try to find someone locally to chamfer. Shipping is expensive and I don't think S&W will foot the bill for that.
JM is so and hd can beat everybody with an out of the box gun. I just figure his guns have had some "work" done on them. I think I saw in a close up of one of his guns and it had the hammer spur ground down.
Yes, the JM is 4". I misquoted above the limit in SSR is 4.25.
If all I have to ship is the cylinder then not a big problem. I have a local smith and will give him a call tomorrow.
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If you end up not liking it, you could always get a moon clip conversion on one of your other Smiths.
http://www.moonclips.com/
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Alf,
I'm thinking getting one too to shoot in USPSA (will get a 5" after market barrel for it). As far as rapid follow up shots, how did it feel managing the recoil? I know that is a subjective thing but your impression on that will give me some idea what to expect. I typically load my .45 rounds to about 170 power factor and the recoil in my 1911 is very manageable.
Thanks!
George
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George, you shouldn't need to get a 5" barrel. S&W shows a regular 625 w/5" barrel. The smooth trigger (at least to me) is better than the narrow grooved trigger on the JM.
FWIW
Richard
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George,
I hadn't looked at USPSA rules, but if 5" barrels are allowed then get a regular 625 as Richard said. You can replace the grips with whatever you want as well as replace the front sight pretty inexpensively. I'd make sure the chambers are beveled, above all else, whatever you get. It will definitely aid in reloading, which you'll do a lot more of in USPSA than in IDPA.
I too, think I'm leaning towards the smooth trigger over the grooved one.
As far as the loads go, I'm not sure where mine is right now. I have several loads I need to chronograph and will need to find the time and place to do so, I might be right at 165. The gun does recoil a little. Not much different than firing a Glock with standard 9mm. IDPA , I believe only requires 125 for SSR, so I may be loading my next batch down quite a bit.
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Alf, you cannot use your JM in SSR unless you use Auto Rim brass and speed loaders or another revo that uses speed loaders. Also, IDPA has lowered their pf for SSR so that any factory ammo will be OK. Any load that you use in SSR will be very mild. A major pf load in your JM will be a handfull but that is as it should be. Even though the JM grips feel good most if not all are changing to something else.
FWIW
Richard
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Thanks Alf and Richard for reminding about the older 5" 625. Sadly, it's not made anymore but I can find one on Gun Broker for around $1100 (includes accessories). So either I buy something like that or I go with a 4" model and shoot that one.
I picked up a 617 from Buds a week ago and I am buying a LCR 22 from a local dealer too. I don't know what happened but the Wheelgun bug bit, and bit me real good too..... :)
-George
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Alf, you cannot use your JM in SSR unless you use Auto Rim brass and speed loaders or another revo that uses speed loaders. Also, IDPA has lowered their pf for SSR so that any factory ammo will be OK. Any load that you use in SSR will be very mild. A major pf load in your JM will be a handfull but that is as it should be. Even though the JM grips feel good most if not all are changing to something else.
I'd forgotten about the "rimmed brass" of SSR. That's okay, I can do. Plus the web site say SSR PF is now lowered to 105! That mean you can load a 200gr to 575fps (if that's possible) and still make 115.
I could use the same gun in both ESR and SSR only by going from speed loader to moon clips! Or I could use my 66 in SSR with real soft .38special loads.
1911 Junkie: IDPA has added this little rule.
The use of trimmed (shortened) ammunition is
not allowed. Ammunition used must match the caliber
listed on the gun. The only exceptions would be: .38
special in .357 magnum, 9mm in .38 super, 40S&W in
10mm, 44 special in .44 magnum.
Don't know if USPSA has or is considering such a rule. Probably not, except maybe in production? But then IPSC & USPSA don't consider Production to be real competition, just a side match.
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So took the 625 5" out Friday. (The 4" JM is at the 'smith having the chambers beveled).
Ask about rapid fire accuracy? Okay not great, not playing card size, but on the paper with .45ACP. This is 6 shots in 1.40 seconds at 12x18 paper 5 yds out. (I brought the paper in for the picture. The other target in the background is out about 7.5 yds for reference.)
I started shooting my revolvers double action to help improve my overall shooting ability. While it has helped noticeably with trigger control with my semi-autos, it has become a small obsession.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2iM8gUtPkSA/T4mDdjYJbTI/AAAAAAAApuk/5iiCMniPUZ4/s512/IMG_20120413_111754.jpg)
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So took the 625 5" out Friday. (The 4" JM is at the 'smith having the chambers beveled).
Ask about rapid fire accuracy? Okay not great, not playing card size, but on the paper with .45ACP. This is 6 shots in 1.40 seconds at 12x18 paper 5 yds out. (I brought the paper in for the picture. The other target in the background is out about 7.5 yds for reference.)
I started shooting my revolvers double action to help improve my overall shooting ability. While it has helped noticeably with trigger control with my semi-autos, it has become a small obsession.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2iM8gUtPkSA/T4mDdjYJbTI/AAAAAAAApuk/5iiCMniPUZ4/s512/IMG_20120413_111754.jpg)
That's not too shabby, Alf! That appears to be grouping in the 4" lower A-zone on a USPSA metric target. You confirmed something I heard about shooting revolver- it helps with the trigger on semi-autos too. I have my 625JM on layaway now. When I get it out, I'm going to send it out to Apex and let them do some work on it. I already have my 617 out there now.....These wheelguns can be addicting....
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That's not too shabby, Alf! That appears to be grouping in the 4" lower A-zone on a USPSA metric target. You confirmed something I heard about shooting revolver- it helps with the trigger on semi-autos too. I have my 625JM on layaway now. When I get it out, I'm going to send it out to Apex and let them do some work on it. I already have my 617 out there now.....These wheelguns can be addicting....
What work are you getting done? Are there issues with the revolvers or is it just personal preference.
I am looking at getting my second ever revolver (my first one was a 681?- like a 686 but with no rear sight just a trough), hopefully a 5" 625 or 4" 686, and would think that out of the box they would be pretty good, they are S & W revolvers after all.
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What work are you getting done? Are there issues with the revolvers or is it just personal preference.
I am looking at getting my second ever revolver (my first one was a 681?- like a 686 but with no rear sight just a trough), hopefully a 5" 625 or 4" 686, and would think that out of the box they would be pretty good, they are S & W revolvers after all.
No issues, just a trigger job, ream the cylinder, and install a fiber optic front sight with a better rear sight too. I plan to use the 617 for practice and shoot it in Steel Challenge competitions. The 625 will be a USPSA gun.
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..These wheelguns can be addicting....
Aren't they though.
I was disappointed the 625JM did not have chamfered chambers. My smith is working on that. My older 625-2 (5") does however. ???
I just need one more speed loader holder and of course a holster for each gun and I'll be ready to try IDPA.
I was pleased to to shoot the 625 as fast as I did. My speed record (1.38) was with a 686 shooting .38spls.
Magoo, if nothing else there's a great psychological boost knowing you can control a full d/a trigger. Then a "safe-action" should be easy to master. Anecdotal evidence is I fired a 498 and a 489 in my last two GSSF matches. (I WILL join the GSSF 500 club this summer.)
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Magoo, if nothing else there's a great psychological boost knowing you can control a full d/a trigger. Then a "safe-action" should be easy to master. Anecdotal evidence is I fired a 498 and a 489 in my last two GSSF matches. (I WILL join the GSSF 500 club this summer.)
That is part of the reason I am looking a wheel guns again. 4 months of school left and then I can get serious about shooting competitions (USPSA, 3 Gun and ICORE at my local club, IDPA at a couple of clubs not far from home) as well as some fun stuff like Speed Steel & Bowling Pins.
BTW I took two of my girls and my 10 22 out to the range yesterday to run some of my reloads over a chronograph and they both had a good time for different reasons. The youngest was intent on hitting the bullseye at 25 yards the other was trying to keep them all on paper as fast as she could pull the trigger. Saved my trip to the range from being a disappointment (see my post in reloading) as well as feeding their shooting bug ;D
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[In case you don't like reading my general musings.]
Got the 625JM back from the smith today. Looks so much better. And of course the full moon clip of ammo drops in pretty easily, which is the whole point. I'm ready to do IDPA ESP. Just need for a match date to coincide with time off.
Here is a before and after picture.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J7JBlsPSZGU/T5rtRuDC29I/AAAAAAAAqn0/zxu5mjH2g1I/s834/SW625JMCylinderBefAft.jpg)
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So did your 'smith just chamfer the chambers or did he do some additional work as well?
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Just the chambers. I need to put a few rounds through it first before I consider doing anything else.
Other than this problem it's a very nice gun.
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The use of trimmed (shortened) ammunition is not allowed. Ammunition used must match the caliber listed on the gun. The only exceptions would be: .38 special in .357 magnum, 9mm in .38 super, 40S&W in 10mm, 44 special in .44 magnum
So, no .44 Russian or .45 Schofield?.....that sucks.....
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I'm sure you could use .45Colt in a .460. ;)